Doom 3 shadowing makes sense

[Cerberus_e]

their shadowing makes sense actually, we learned at geography today that light doesn't reflect on planets without atmosphere.
so it's 100% dark in shadows, for example at the moon.
does mars have atmosphere? at least not like earth, so the dark shadows make sense http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

so who is still going to complain about the dark shadows? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif

seriously, I immediately thought of doom 3 when I heared this http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif especially when I saw a picture of a rock and the shadows are 100% dark, I thought: looks like the rocks in hell level

[Beelze]

Yeah, but still, it didn't have to be Gloom 3. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[NutWrench]

Real world shadows are not razor sharp and utterly black. They are always a little bit diffuse and radiosity fills in some of the shadows with reflected light. A game filled with shiny, metallic surfaces ought to reflect a lot of light.

[Roger]

Have you played Riddick, Nutwrench? Have you tried its OpenGL 2.0++ drivers? The shadows become blurred on the edges and aren't always solid black- the ideal shadows you're saying Doom 3 should have. But you know what? It knocks my system down to about 10 FPS-- and I have a BFG GeForce 6800 Ultra, 3.0 GHz P4, and 1 GB DDRAM.

[Warmaster129]

Cerberus_e said:
their shadowing makes sense actually, we learned at geography today that light doesn't reflect on planets without atmosphere.
so it's 100% dark in shadows, for example at the moon.
does mars have atmosphere? at least not like earth, so the dark shadows make sense http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

so who is still going to complain about the dark shadows? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif

seriously, I immediately thought of doom 3 when I heared this http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif especially when I saw a picture of a rock and the shadows are 100% dark, I thought: looks like the rocks in hell level


No, shadows are NOT 100% dark atmosphere or not. Light is reflected diffusely off of almost all surfaces, a lot of times ending up into shadows. Note that the shadows aren't 100% dark on the Moon, although it might seem like it very small photographs.

[NutWrench]

Roger said:
Have you played Riddick, Nutwrench? Have you tried its OpenGL 2.0++ drivers? The shadows become blurred on the edges and aren't always solid black- the ideal shadows you're saying Doom 3 should have. But you know what? It knocks my system down to about 10 FPS-- and I have a BFG GeForce 6800 Ultra, 3.0 GHz P4, and 1 GB DDRAM.



I played the Chronicles of Riddick demo, but it really didn't grab me. I mostly didn't like the way the character handled: it's like he's teetering on springs in his shoes. I don't want to fight the interface as well as the game enemies. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Duoae]

Cerberus_e said:
their shadowing makes sense actually, we learned at geography today that light doesn't reflect on planets without atmosphere.
so it's 100% dark in shadows, for example at the moon.
does mars have atmosphere? at least not like earth, so the dark shadows make sense http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif




Erm, that can't be right.... light does not need gas to propagate.... this isn't pre-20th century you know. We're not talking about the "ether" here. Your geographer must be wrong.

Light only reflects or absorbs depending on the texture and "colour" of a surface.

Besides, if you ever look into the moon landing conspiracy theories, you will be told that some of the photos are faked due to lighting. However, some of these can be explained by relfectance off of the spacecraft and other rocks on the surface.

[EDIT]

Hehe, just saw warmaster's post.... but yeah.

[FireFly]

Roger said:
Have you played Riddick, Nutwrench? Have you tried its OpenGL 2.0++ drivers? The shadows become blurred on the edges and aren't always solid black- the ideal shadows you're saying Doom 3 should have. But you know what? It knocks my system down to about 10 FPS-- and I have a BFG GeForce 6800 Ultra, 3.0 GHz P4, and 1 GB DDRAM.


Are they always blurred to the same degree or is it based on the distance from the light source/size of the object?

Anyway, didn't the developers say they'd be reducing the FPS hit.

[Cerberus_e]

we learned this: it's completely dark in places where light can't get because light doesn't reflect on the moon, there is no atmosphere

[BillyD]

Cerberus_e said:
we learned this: it's completely dark in places where light can't get because light doesn't reflect on the moon, there is no atmosphere


If light doesn't reflect on the moon how do we see the moon in the first place? The sun's light must reflect from the surface of the moon to make it visible to us.

Maybe your teacher meant something else... or I'm misunderstanding you?

[Cerberus_e]

BillyD said:

Cerberus_e said:
we learned this: it's completely dark in places where light can't get because light doesn't reflect on the moon, there is no atmosphere


If light doesn't reflect on the moon how do we see the moon in the first place? The sun's light must reflect from the surface of the moon to make it visible to us.




that's a good point.

[Roger]

FireFly said:
Are they always blurred to the same degree or is it based on the distance from the light source/size of the object?




I don't know, actually. I had it on for a bit but the lag started making me a bit sick.


FireFly said:
Anyway, didn't the developers say they'd be reducing the FPS hit.



Good luck to 'em.

[Hudson]

Roger said:
Have you played Riddick, Nutwrench? Have you tried its OpenGL 2.0++ drivers? The shadows become blurred on the edges and aren't always solid black- the ideal shadows you're saying Doom 3 should have. But you know what? It knocks my system down to about 10 FPS-- and I have a BFG GeForce 6800 Ultra, 3.0 GHz P4, and 1 GB DDRAM.



Uhh.. I have an A64 3200+, BFG GeForce 6800 Ultra and 1GB of ram as well and I run Doom III and Riddick maxed out 1280x1024 4xAA and 8xAF and still get screaming framerates.

[Gryph]

Well can't you see that's because you an AMD. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

But I don't remember the lights fading out and I used 2.0.

[Roger]

With the OpenGL 2.0++ drivers on? If so... please sned your video drivers. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif

[Hudson]

Roger said:
With the OpenGL 2.0++ drivers on? If so... please sned your video drivers. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif



Yes. I'm using the latest ones from nVidia's website: v71.89

Also I suggest this:
http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=815

Just don't mess with it if you don't know what you're doing http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Roger]

Sorry, TX, I think the Tweaker drivers are going to have to move to the side. :>

[TerminX]

Roger said:
Sorry, TX, I think the Tweaker drivers are going to have to move to the side. :>


The drivers I use are more recent than the ones Hudson linked by a decent margin. There are also XG versions of the 71.89s, which are, of course, better than the official release by a decent margin.

Basically, whatever you get from www.tweaksrus.com (http://www.tweaksrus.com) is likely to be the best.

[Parkar]

BillyD said:

Cerberus_e said:
we learned this: it's completely dark in places where light can't get because light doesn't reflect on the moon, there is no atmosphere


If light doesn't reflect on the moon how do we see the moon in the first place? The sun's light must reflect from the surface of the moon to make it visible to us.

Maybe your teacher meant something else... or I'm misunderstanding you?



what he ment I belive is that since there is no atmosphear the atmosphere can't reflect light making shadow darker then on the erth were the air reflects light making light come from all directions. On a planet with no atmosphere all light comes from the sun and ground. Since light can't bounce on ground and hit ground (as long as there is not a hill or something) the shadows is pretty much completly dark.

[Drazula]

Just say "shadows don't diffuse without an atmosphere!" Clear and to the point! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Err, ummm, what was the point again? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jimbob]

light mght not reflect of off atmoshperic planets, but doom 3 is set in a space station where they made an artificial atmosphere http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif plus its a sientific place, they are usually verry bright en well lit and have plenty of backup energy so they wont have a sudden blackout, like in a hospital.

[bonch]

The shadowing in the outdoor Mars environments looked great. It was the whole "let's build a super futuristic space station with the most amazing resource processing and energy creation capabilities in the world, and power it with sub-flashlight level flourescent lights so nobody can see what they're doing while they work" that got to me. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The lack of real-time radiosity that other engines have made a lot of Doom 3's silver hallways give me headaches from the sharp, razor-edge contrasts. If you light Doom 3's levels to be as bright as other current games are, suddenly all those bump maps disappear and Doom 3's visuals become generic and boring. But that's the trade-off when you do full real-time shadows--no ambience, global illumination, radiosity, or other natural features of light. In that sense, Doom 3 actually has the most crippled lighting model out there.

[laffer]

The base is dimly lit as the recent experiments have drawn much more power than they really have. They don't know where they're gonna get the power needed to continue powering the portal experiments.
It's all in the PDA's http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bonch]

Use solar power, dammit! Or open up some skylights and let the sun shine through.

I feel sorry for that poor front-desk clerk in the beginning of the game, working under the light level of your average streetlamp... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Mountain Man]

Cerberus_e said:
light doesn't reflect on planets without atmosphere.


Say what? Light reflects just fine in a vacuum.


it's 100% dark in shadows, for example at the moon.


Actually, shadows on the moon are not pitch black. Don't go by NASA photographs because they don't tell the whole story. The only reason shadows look dark in those photos is because the exposure was set for the brightest part of the picture--the astronauts' white space suits and the highly reflective moon surface.

Now what you won't see in a vacuum is diffussion because there is nothing in the air to scatter and diffuse the light.


does mars have atmosphere? at least not like earth, so the dark shadows make sense http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Actually, Mars does have an atmosphere. Not quite as dense as earth's, but it does indeed have one.

No offense, but maybe you should pay better attention in class instead of thinking about video games.

[laffer]

They've just recently begun these experiments and they had enough power before so there was no need for such things. They've probably not had the time to do what you suggest. They've probably been too busy building monster closets for the upcoming invasion http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Shlubalubs]

FireFly said:
Are they always blurred to the same degree or is it based on the distance from the light source/size of the object?


Hmm... i beleive the important factor in any case would how far the object casting the shadow is from what its shadow is being cast upon.

[Cerberus_e]

Mountain Man said:

Cerberus_e said:
light doesn't reflect on planets without atmosphere.


Say what? Light reflects just fine in a vacuum.


it's 100% dark in shadows, for example at the moon.


Actually, shadows on the moon are not pitch black. Don't go by NASA photographs because they don't tell the whole story. The only reason shadows look dark in those photos is because the exposure was set for the brightest part of the picture--the astronauts' white space suits and the highly reflective moon surface.

Now what you won't see in a vacuum is diffussion because there is nothing in the air to scatter and diffuse the light.


does mars have atmosphere? at least not like earth, so the dark shadows make sense http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Actually, Mars does have an atmosphere. Not quite as dense as earth's, but it does indeed have one.

No offense, but maybe you should pay better attention in class instead of thinking about video games.



I don't think about video games, but when I hear "not on earth" and "dark shadows", you'd think about doom 3 too http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

and maybe I express myself wrong in english, but where the light can't get, there will be no shado... ok, when I feel like it, I'll take my cursus

[bonch]

Mountain Man said:
The only reason shadows look dark in those photos is because the exposure was set for the brightest part of the picture--the astronauts' white space suits and the highly reflective moon surface.



Also illustrated by the stars in the sky missing in several shots on the moon. Just a black sky. Moon conspiracy theorists go nuts over this. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mountain Man]

Cerberus_e said:
and maybe I express myself wrong in english, but where the light can't get, there will be no shado... ok, when I feel like it, I'll take my cursus


There are very few situations where reflected light will not offer at least minimal illumination in a shadowed area.

[Drazula]

The moon and mars examples Cerb gave are not the same. The moon will not refract any light so the shadows will be sharp. Mars has a minimal atmosphere (about the same as earth's, 100 miles high) so some refraction will take place.

The Doom 3 shadows are not a perfect representation of what you would see on Mars. They are for the moon.

[Warmaster129]

No offence Cerb, but if you really do belive that light can't reflect in a vacuum, you lack any sort of ability to reason. I can't fathom how anybody could seriously believe that.

[DudeMiester]

Cerberus_e said:
their shadowing makes sense actually, we learned at geography today that light doesn't reflect on planets without atmosphere.



You're geography teacher is ignorent. The reason shadows are so sharp on an atmoshereless planet is because there is no atmosphric scattering. Light will interact with the particles in the sky, that's why gas can have colours and the sky is blue. This causes shadows to be no as dark because they are recieveing light from the entire sky, not just the sun. Reflection is always working, mirrors won't suddenly grow dark on the moon, lol! In pictures from the moon missions and orbiting objects you still see shiny reflecting metal, lol!

So no, Doom 3's lighting is still terribly inadequate to express realism. Then again all games are, none of them have any real kind of GI (ok well except for this (http://download.nvidia.com/developer/presentations/2005/GDC/Direct3D_Day/D3DTutorial07_AlexEvans_Final.pdf) example, but that's purely theoritcal (see the cube GI example)).

[Cerberus_e]

I think I expressed myself wrong, I said I'll take my cursus when I feel like doing so http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Drazula]

For god sakes guys, Cerb is only mixing up <font color="yellow">reflect</font> and <font color="yellow">refract</font>. I knew that as soon as I read it, as we would obviously not be able to see the moon.

He fat fingered one word, but what he was describing with regards to shadows is obviously refraction of light. Stop being so harsh on the guy.

[i]/me gives a little spite kick to Cerb...."Nitwit, use the right word!" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Cerberus_e]

reflect, refract, it's all the same, I am right and no debating is needed http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Cerberus_e]

ok then, I'm here with my cursus.

"Op de maan is het in de schaduw volstrekt donker; er is geen atmosfeer om het zonlicht te verspreiden"

translated:

"On the moon, shadows are completely dark; there is no atmosphere to spread the sunlight"

as you see I was right. I may have used some mildly wrong words here and there, but the point is the same http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

and mars isn't that different from the moon, atmosphere-wise.
proof: the doom marine would need another suit if he went from/to phobos or deimos to/from Mars, if the atmosphere was a lot different on a moon or mars. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

conclusion: doom 3 has correct shadowing http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[avatar_58]

And yet strangely enough he could walk outside of the base without any helmit on...

[Drazula]

Well, mars is somewhere between the way the moon and earth with refracting light. So, Doom 3 shadows aren't quite perfect for mars. Especially when they are showing windstorms, there should be some blurr.

[Cerberus_e]

avatar_58 said:
And yet strangely enough he could walk outside of the base without any helmit on...



that's why you need to be inside before your o2 bar runs out avatar http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[avatar_58]

Cerberus_e said:

avatar_58 said:
And yet strangely enough he could walk outside of the base without any helmit on...



that's why you need to be inside before your o2 bar runs out avatar http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



Maybe I watch too much total recall. I expected my eyes to pop out! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kylemf88]

It's on Mars your o2 isn't your problem about being outside. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif But then again demons aren't on Mars.

[avatar_58]

kylemf88 said:
It's on Mars your o2 isn't your problem about being outside. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif But then again demons aren't on Mars.



YES THEY AREZ! STFU NUB! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

it doesn't even bother me I just wondered is all. It beats the old doom where it didn't even know if you were outside or in http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Warmaster129]

Cerberus_e said:
ok then, I'm here with my cursus.

"Op de maan is het in de schaduw volstrekt donker; er is geen atmosfeer om het zonlicht te verspreiden"

translated:

"On the moon, shadows are completely dark; there is no atmosphere to spread the sunlight"

as you see I was right. I may have used some mildly wrong words here and there, but the point is the same http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

and mars isn't that different from the moon, atmosphere-wise.
proof: the doom marine would need another suit if he went from/to phobos or deimos to/from Mars, if the atmosphere was a lot different on a moon or mars. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

conclusion: doom 3 has correct shadowing http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif
Sorry, shadows on the moon are NOT completely dark. The edges of the shadows are much less blurry, but the centers aren't completely dark. Let me try to explain this to you.

Light reflects off of everything. Even on the moon, light reflects off of the ground and goes into the shadows. There does not need to be an atmosphere to spread the sunlight.

[Cerberus_e]

cool! if I don't have 50% for geography, I'll tell my teacher everything we learn is incorrect, example (the one warmaster129 gave).
now give me 100%!

[bonch]

avatar_58 said:
It beats the old doom where it didn't even know if you were outside or in http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif



Though in the original, you had a breathing helmet on at all times so it didn't matter so much.

[Vexed]

Yeah, apparantly it could convert the vacuum into oxygen. Neat trick!

[bonch]

I always assumed there were built in oxygen supplies somewhere in the marine's suit.

[Vexed]

That's an interesting theory.

[Plagman]

Hudson said:

Roger said:
With the OpenGL 2.0++ drivers on? If so... please sned your video drivers. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif



Yes. I'm using the latest ones from nVidia's website: v71.89

Also I suggest this:
http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=815

Just don't mess with it if you don't know what you're doing http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



He's actually talking of the shaders settings in the game. If you set the shaders on 2.0+, you'll notice that your framerate won't scream anymore.

[avatar_58]

bonch said:

avatar_58 said:
It beats the old doom where it didn't even know if you were outside or in http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif



Though in the original, you had a breathing helmet on at all times so it didn't matter so much.



As much as I love the old doom I question this. Even though your sprite shows a helmit...his face is shown in the hud getting injured. Yes, this could be just a simple symbol but why would he get bloody when he is wearing the helmit over his face?

Also, during the end of episode 4 he is depicted without one, and the same goes for every other picture of the doom marine (save for the doom 1 intro pic)

It's actually hard to tell if he is supposed to be wearing it or not. If you read the books (yeah, but they pretty interesting) they used the thoery that the planets were actually breathable for some reason. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[kylemf88]

... It's a video game why does all this stuff matter? Doom 3 was dark to be scary... end of story. (witch worked if you ask me) Erm... on doom... the hud of the dude's face... erm... well it looked kewl! Who wants to see a beat up mask.

[Vexed]

The guy in the hud is called "Empathetic Pete". He's actually a tiny guy that lives in the hud. He's what they call an "empath", someone with the psychic ability to feel exactly how a other person is feeling. He feels the pain of doomguy so vividly that he actually gets hurt physically aswell. Oh did I mention he doesn't have a body? See the reason why he sustains a head injury when doomguy gets a shot to the pills from some random pinky demon is because he's just a floating head. He gains nutrition from the quasi homo-erotic grunts produced by doomguy.

Hope that clears things up.

[avatar_58]

Vexed said:
The guy in the hud is called "Empathetic Pete". He's actually a tiny guy that lives in the hud. He's what they call an "empath", someone with the psychic ability to feel exactly how a other person is feeling. He feels the pain of doomguy so vividly that he actually gets hurt physically aswell. Oh did I mention he doesn't have a body? See the reason why he sustains a head injury when doomguy gets a shot to the pills from some random pinky demon is because he's just a floating head. He gains nutrition from the quasi homo-erotic grunts produced by doomguy.

Hope that clears things up.



I bow to your knowledge. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif