Holly hell! Imagine this duke 3d

[Boinky]

http://img76.echo.cx/img76/641/compare013lw.th.jpg (http://img76.echo.cx/my.php?image=compare013lw.jpg)
Pulled this from http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/ed...flat&vc=1.. (http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/editpost.php?Cat=0&Board=dnf&Number=838800&page=0&what=showflat&vc=1..) Duke3d in a new light :-P.. Too bad its illegal (and canceled), looks really nice!

[Chip]

Why was it illegal?

[Dr. Kill]

it's illegal because 3dr don't want people re-doin duke in a competitor's engine. That's why JFDuke needs dynamic lighting.

I never saw these shots... damn, I wish it was legal

[Iggy]

So do I, Dámn that looks awesome. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[Nacho]

Wasn't Derwin working on that? Or am I mistaken?

[Water12356]

Yea that does look good! If Derwin is working on it, I hope me makes it look better. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nacho]

Water12356 said:
Yea that does look good! If Derwin is working on it, I hope me makes it look better. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Well if it was him or whoever they arn't allowed. 3DR sent an e-mail telling the creator to stop making it.

[NetNessie]

It does look awesome, but I do understand and agree with 3DR's reasoning for not allowing its continuation.

btw, is that built on the Source engine?

[Krid]

NetNessie said:
It does look awesome, but I do understand and agree with 3DR's reasoning for not allowing its continuation.

btw, is that built on the Source engine?



It said it was the UT engine.

It would be nice if 3DR would allow a Duke3D mod that checked for a valid copy of duke3d.grp before allowing people to play. They probably just don't want people to be forced to buy somebody else's game to play it...

Come to think of it, ID is planning on GPLing the Quake3 code; Using that (and some of the logic - but probably not code - from Build) as a base, somebody could create a relatively modern version of Duke3D.

It would need code to convert maps from Build's structure into something a bit more flexible, a bunch of hack files for lights, and god onlyknows what else but it would be doable.


3DR: Would it be alright with you if somebody started work on a Duke3D mod for Quake 3 if they agreed to not release it unless and until Quake3 is GPLed and do so only as a stand-alone game, and to require the original Duke3D game files?

[Parkar]

Belive me its easier to just keep building on the duke source. For instance the maps can't be converted to bsp without modyfying the layout of a lot of them.

[Rider]

overlapping sectors and BSP don't mix!

[Geoffrey]

It doesn't look that awesome. Someone posted a few duke-on-a-new-engine shots at dnr once ( might have been from the same project ) but it's just too obvious that these old maps look like shit when you directly port them and add some lights here and there. The current hi-res pack beats those shots with ease http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jimbob]

Rider said:
overlapping sectors and BSP don't mix!

its possible in unreal engine games with the use of portals, albeit verry hard to get it right http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kristian Joensen]

Howabout at new portal engine ?

[NetNessie]

Krid said:

NetNessie said:
It does look awesome, but I do understand and agree with 3DR's reasoning for not allowing its continuation.

btw, is that built on the Source engine?



It said it was the UT engine.




I didnt think about checking its origional thread. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Krid]

Parkar said:
Belive me its easier to just keep building on the duke source. For instance the maps can't be converted to bsp without modyfying the layout of a lot of them.



I'm well aware of this fact, that's why I didn't say BSP. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

It's possible to restructure Quake3 to use a portal-based system, although it would probably be none too easy. However, I'd like to point-out that most of the resources have already been redone in a Quake3-friendly format, so all that would really need to be done would be the code.

The hardest part would likely be creating a fully featured portal-based map format which build engine maps could reliably be ported to by automatic code...

Edit: Oh, and near as I can tell, DooM3 is based on Quake3's code, and we all know Prey is based on DooM3. So if Prey uses portals, then DooM3 can use portals, and so Quake3 can probably use portals.

[Parkar]

Or just add lightning to the jfduke build port and you are pretty much done already.

[Dr. Kill]

I've been sayin that for a while. I wonder how dynamic lighting would work? If the sector "lighting" was still there when we get dynamic lighting, it would look wierd.

[Iggy]

Parkar said:
Or just add lightning to the jfduke build port and you are pretty much done already.


Is there a chance we actually could get such a thing in the port?

[Rider]

Someone will eventually come along and do it.

[Krid]

That wouldn't allow for mappers to do things like have a doorway that doesn't reach to the top of the map, or any one of a hundred other things that JFDuke will likely never be able to do.

I'm all for JFDuke, but I figure that there's no reason for people who aren't JonoF and Ken to NOT work on a remake if they want.

Besides, I don't think true portals (See: Prey video), or simulated physics, or shaders, or etc... are possible in BUILD without a complete re-write.

[Dr. Kill]

people said the same about models, and true 3d.

[Chip]

Hey, Dr Kill,
Who is that clown you have as an avatar?





Dam! I'm hyperactive again, oh well http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

[Kristian Joensen]

Krid said:
That wouldn't allow for mappers to do things like have a doorway that doesn't reach to the top of the map, or any one of a hundred other things that JFDuke will likely never be able to do.

I'm all for JFDuke, but I figure that there's no reason for people who aren't JonoF and Ken to NOT work on a remake if they want.

Besides, I don't think true portals (See: Prey video), or simulated physics, or shaders, or etc... are possible in BUILD without a complete re-write.



It migth be impossible without a complete re-write but it should be possible with a complete re-write.

[Parkar]

Krid said:
That wouldn't allow for mappers to do things like have a doorway that doesn't reach to the top of the map, or any one of a hundred other things that JFDuke will likely never be able to do.

I'm all for JFDuke, but I figure that there's no reason for people who aren't JonoF and Ken to NOT work on a remake if they want.

Besides, I don't think true portals (See: Prey video), or simulated physics, or shaders, or etc... are possible in BUILD without a complete re-write.



Well I thought you were talking about the original game and not mods or completely new maps etc. But if you want to do that you might as well just do it using the quake engine all together, no point in converting the duke maps.

Also I did not say either ken or JonoF had to do it just because it would be based on their port. That's what the whole idea behind open source projects. What I meant was that if someone wants to add new stuff to duke it would probably be easiest to start from the duke source with polymost then starting with quake or any other engine.

Nothings stops you from adding other elements then sprites and sectors like 3d brushes even though it may be a lot of work. The question is which is the easiest way to do it and my guess is its easier to start with duke and add the new stuff on top rewrite what ever needs rewriting.

Anyway this is just my opinions on the matter and what approach I would take if I had the time to do it.

[Dr. Kill]

whatever, I don't give a damn as long as lighting gets done by SOMEONE!

[Rider]

I personally think that it would be quite possible to modify the duke engine until you can place actual 3D brushes in new user maps, in addition to the existing sector/sprite rendering. It wouldn't require a rebuild of existing maps (as those maps will simply not benefit from it) but it will give mappers something new to play with.

Same with lighting, except that you probably could think of a way to let lighttextures actually cast light and add a lightpoint sprite (and probably a menu-function that allows you to switch from sector-lighting to "real time")

everything is possible, as long as you have the right idea!

[Steve]

The new texture pack for Jonofs port looks better.

[Krid]

Kristian Joensen said:

Krid said:
That wouldn't allow for mappers to do things like have a doorway that doesn't reach to the top of the map, or any one of a hundred other things that JFDuke will likely never be able to do.

I'm all for JFDuke, but I figure that there's no reason for people who aren't JonoF and Ken to NOT work on a remake if they want.

Besides, I don't think true portals (See: Prey video), or simulated physics, or shaders, or etc... are possible in BUILD without a complete re-write.



It migth be impossible without a complete re-write but it should be possible with a complete re-write.



But if you're going to do a complete re-write, then why not start with a more advanced engine and translate content over?

The prexisting capabilities of the engine would make for far less effort; shaders, brushes, true model support, advanced netcode featuring a client/server model, and countless other features that JFDuke doesn't have.

As for portals: I want a system where you can define a portal/portal-pair based on four or more points and a vector - At least three points for the position, shape, and size of the entrance, and one point with a vector for the exit.

Frankly, the possibilities (like having a level that wraps-around completely) become infinately more varried.

I'm not demanding that it be done, I just figure that if people like these want to create an advanced remake of Duke3D then they should know about perfectly legal possibilities. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Parkar said:
Well I thought you were talking about the original game and not mods or completely new maps etc. But if you want to do that you might as well just do it using the quake engine all together, no point in converting the duke maps.



Ah, but there is! By altering the engine to use portal-based maps, it becomes fairly trivial to code something to convert the .map format to the new one.


Parkar said:Also I did not say either ken or JonoF had to do it just because it would be based on their port. That's what the whole idea behind open source projects. What I meant was that if someone wants to add new stuff to duke it would probably be easiest to start from the duke source with polymost then starting with quake or any other engine.



No, I don't think so. The hard part of altering Quake 3 would be portals, the hard part of altering JFDuke would be everything else.


Parkar said:Nothings stops you from adding other elements then sprites and sectors like 3d brushes even though it may be a lot of work. The question is which is the easiest way to do it and my guess is its easier to start with duke and add the new stuff on top rewrite what ever needs rewriting.



I'm pretty certain that adding brushes would break the classic renderer, and break it fairly severely. D3D is a raycast engine, not a scanline or raytrace one.

I dunno for sure, I'm a bit green when it comes to engine design. It's Ken's engine, he would certainly be able to determine what's possible and what's not.

[Parkar]

Just to be sure you know what jf duke can do.

It renders in opnegl with polymost.
It has model suport (md2)

Rendering a brush should be no big deal as it can already render md2 models. You don't need to keep the classic renderer.

[Krid]

Parkar said:
Just to be sure you know what jf duke can do.

It renders in opnegl with polymost.
It has model suport (md2)

Rendering a brush should be no big deal as it can already render md2 models. You don't need to keep the classic renderer.



Re: Brushes: I know you don't need to keep the classic renderer. However, adding brushes would be breaking compatability with other ports and splitting the mapping community. Making it so that new features would be implimented in a new map format would at least keep the .map format pure for compatability.

Re: MD2 support: It doesn't have model support, it's just capable of rendering them. The engine still treats enemies the same as when they were sprites, giving us the vanishing-model glitch, the complete lack of accurate hit detection, and several lesser problems.

I've thought about this. I don't want JFDuke go down this path, as it's a faithful port of the original - and we need that. However, I'd like to see a Duke3D remake on a better engine - not for the sake of purity, but for the sake of providing a version of Duke that makes for a better playground for mapper's ideas. That, and having dedicated QDuke servers would make it MUCH easier to play with other people.

[Rider]

Krid said:
...
However, I'd like to see a Duke3D remake on a better engine - not for the sake of purity, but for the sake of providing a version of Duke that makes for a better playground for mapper's ideas. That, and having dedicated QDuke servers would make it MUCH easier to play with other people.



wait for DNF, it'll have all of that. No use in turning D3D into something it's successor will most definitly be...

[Boinky]

Hrm.. Well there is a con hack for dynamtic lighting *Not really good* But it does make things a little differently.. I believe cyborg was the one who threw it together.. Now given its nothing like present day engines, but it was a good attempt. If I can find the site again I'll post for you guys.. I dunno I think that holly looks really good, at the same time I'd rather see Eduke or something of the sorts w/ client/server play then Q3.. Changing to a whole new engine Im afraid we will lose what we all came to love the most.. Duke. Besides if u use Q3 Duke will go from saying "Damn" to "hmph"*Quake Jumping noise*

[Kristian Joensen]

Would it be possible to add support for all of Duke3D data formats to Quake 3 ?

How about Con scripting ?

[Kristian Joensen]

Also I would really wish someone would make a Build like editor for a modern true 3D Polygonal engine..

Is that somehow impossible or particulary hard ?

[Krid]

Kristian Joensen said:
Would it be possible to add support for all of Duke3D data formats to Quake 3 ?



Yes.


Kristian Joensen said:How about Con scripting ?



Yes, although that would be a noteworthy amount of work.


Kristian Joensen said:
Also I would really wish someone would make a Build like editor for a modern true 3D Polygonal engine..

Is that somehow impossible or particulary hard ?



The problem with Build is that it can really only handle 2D-rooms. You can convert that into a 3D area, but your levels will always be nothing more than areas stuck between a ceiling and floor.

[Kristian Joensen]

Why ?

[gungriffon geona]

you people keep talking about making DN3D work on a more true 3D system, yet you have completely forgotten a project that's basiccally JDoom for Duke:
Lemo Duke 3d Engine (http://www.dukenukem3d.net/)

Atleast TRY to pay the guys attention instead of continually harping on making JFDuke go beyond it's true limits. and, you know, maybe HELP them if you have any actual skill?

[Dr. Kill]

that engine looks good, but it's not half as complete as JFDuke. I still think someone should (eventually) add dynamic lighting. Plus, I don't think people will just ditch JFDuke.

[sebab]

Man, that is hot stuff!

[NetNessie]

Krid said:
I'm all for JFDuke, but I figure that there's no reason for people who aren't JonoF and Ken to NOT work on a remake if they want.



As mentioned before, unless by remake you mean thier own port. It is illegal to reproduce Duke Nukem 3D on another engine\game and distribute that.

I can understand that people want a more modern experience with Duke Nukem 3D. And the easiest way is to recreate the maps in other editors, but seeing that this is not a possible or legal option, people will just have to wait till the ports support such features.

Right now I couldnt care less if the game isnt "True 3D", or if it doesnt use dynamic lighting. All I want is a stable netcode and many other tiny features.

Remember JFDuke despite being one of the oldest ports in development for Duke3D, is still fairly young. Anything interms of a grand-spanking new feature is still possible, just a little while off.

[DrFunkenstien]

Nacho said:
Well if it was him or whoever they arn't allowed. 3DR sent an e-mail telling the creator to stop making it.



I really dont understand why anyone gives a f*ck.

3DR can't sue someone across the Internet if they're totally anonymous. They can't stop someone from putting the shit on Kazzaa or WinMX!

I wonder, do you people still pay $700 for your copies of MS Office? Oh and you *do* have legal copies of WinXP, WinZip, Photoshop and whatever else you use? Bah!!

[Boinky]

If it was a gaming company such as Sony, Mythic, or any other big "corporate" names. I would agree 100%, but its 3Dr and they actually stand to deliver so in my own morals, I couldnt bring myself to do it to a company such as these fellows!

[NetNessie]

Got to agree with Boinky, dont hurt the small developers. Its like trashing a mum and pop shop. It just aint fair.

Still, you must realize, its thier idea, thier concept and design. They have invested alot of time creating this idea, and now someone else is going to copy it and put it somewhere else for the world to freely see.

You must remember, just because a majority of people have pirated software, doesnt mean pirating software is legal.

[Kristian Joensen]

Look it is pretty simple the idea is not the recreate/copy the Duke3D content but to create a new/modify an existing engine wich can load Duke3D files and/or maybe to write converters for the Duke3D formats especially .map.

That is not illegal.

[NetNessie]

Kristian Joensen said:
Look it is pretty simple the idea is not the recreate/copy the Duke3D content but to create a new/modify an existing engine wich can load Duke3D files



The hard part is finding a good engine thats open source which could be edited to accept Duke3D files. Then again, making such adapations to a new engine, when we already have one which supports Duke files is a waste of time as it. We might as well wait for developers to produce ports with the features we want than to rewrite a totally different engine to accept Duke files.


Kristian Joensen said:
maybe to write converters for the Duke3D formats especially .map.




Well if you convert across duke files, such as maps or sounds etc, that where 3DR origional, then that is illegal. If its your own creation then its okay.

[Kristian Joensen]

NetNessie said:

Kristian Joensen said:
maybe to write converters for the Duke3D formats especially .map.




Well if you convert across duke files, such as maps or sounds etc, that where 3DR origional, then that is illegal. If its your own creation then its okay.



No it is not illegal so long as you don't distribute it, you could write a converter and a batch file to convert all the Duke Data and distribute only that.

Also I believe JonoF and others have said that they won't be doing some of the features mentioned here.

[gungriffon geona]

Dr. Kill said:
that engine looks good, but it's not half as complete as JFDuke. I still think someone should (eventually) add dynamic lighting. Plus, I don't think people will just ditch JFDuke.



did people ditch the other ports of Doom when Jdoom came out? no, they didn't. because the engine was so powerful that older graphics cards and PCs couldn't run it, so they stuck with the old ports and left the engine alone.

[pc rant]
but in these days where everyone is oh so rich and can spend hundreds, if not thousands, upgrading their computer to some rediculous standard that no PC is actually able to reach yet, during a recession no less, everyone and their grandma can run the damn thing with all the model pack features and stuff.[/pc rant]

so why stick to older ports? because they were the first to come out and don't have any bugs. That's what will eventually come to be with JFDuke.

[NetNessie]

Kristian Joensen said:
No it is not illegal so long as you don't distribute it, you could write a converter and a batch file to convert all the Duke Data and distribute only that.



If you batch convert a bunch of Duke Data and started distributing it, that means that people are receiving a product (even if its only parts of it) for free.

The reason why ports work is because you still need the origional game to be able to run the port, so you can only play the game if you have purchased the game content. That way people dont receive a game for free.

When someone remakes duke3d on another game, they are transfering across this contact, mainly intellectual copyrights, to a new platform. This means that when distributed people will receive this content, along with 3DR's IP, for free. Which is not allowed by 3DR.

If you just distribute the converter that would be legal, because your not distributing game content, but the ability to move game content to another platform. I guess it works, as people who do not own the origional wont be able to get the game for free. I must say its a really clever idea. Sadly though I doubt anyone would invest the enourmous time required to write suitable porting software needed to transfer the game content over correctly.

[Kristian Joensen]

No they won't be receiving the content they have to have that before, they only get a .exe and a .bat file.

[NetNessie]

Kristian Joensen said:
No they won't be receiving the content they have to have that before, they only get a .exe and a .bat file.



Yeah, I realised that. Its a pretty cool idea. I wonder if there are any legal issues involved though.

[Kristian Joensen]

No, there shouldn't be, you are allowed to distribute programs you make and you are allowed to distribute batch files you make.