Design Techniques for Maps

[Zilla]

Naaahh, those build limitations...
max. walls/sectors/sprites: prison bars for your ideas.
Eduke is rising the limits actually, but what do you think: Is it better to create ultra realistic maps (shadows, small details, etc.) and keep them rather small, so that the player has finished it in about 2 minutes? Or are you not betting on details and create really large maps like endless mazes or open areas?

[alejandro]

I have moments and moments... sometimes I want to make ultra-detailed maps and other times I think in a clean design and gameplay...

[NutWrench]

I try to stick with simple base textures for deathmatch maps: try to avoid distracting complicated textures. I usually make the deathmatch maps slightly overscaled so there's more room to fight, but simpler in construction to preserve framerate (and because they will be lots of bots and weapons fire onscreen).

I take a lot more time with single player maps, putting in much more detail and lighting variation.

[alejandro]

Nutwrench: are you going to some day release any other usermap? or you just definitely left building?

[NutWrench]

I probably won't do any more Duke 3D maps. My latest sound card driver update didn't include any DOS drivers, so I can't run Duke3D with sound on this computer, anymore. images/icons/frown.gif

I've made tons of test maps in UnrealEd and I'll definitely make maps for DNF! images/icons/smile.gif

[Zilla]

Actually, I think detailed maps are the alpha and the omega of map-design. But overkill can be really a *killer*- Think of making glass shards which lay on the floor out of sectors??? 3 walls for only 1 shard!!!
Lots of detail- okay.
Overdriven details- bad. graemlins/wid.gif

To Nutwrench: If 3DR leave it on that engine images/icons/grin.gif

[ 04-23-2002, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Zilla ]

[Mortuus47]

I use fairly average amounts of detail these days as a comprimise. But sometimes I think of ways that I can use a load of sectors or walls to make one part of a map look really good, so I'll do that.

I was working on a TC ages ago (now scrapped because the team making it split up due to internal disagreements) and I made one really great first level. Then decided to make it more detailed. The first map is now largely cosmetic and you can finish it in under 10 seconds. You walk onto a sector and the second map loads. It's still one level, but it's split into two maps so I can do some nicely detailed stuff.

DM maps I tend to make 'em small anyway so I don't really consider the limits and make it as detailed as I want along the way.

[Kef Nukem]

Mortuus, are you saying you're still mapping for Duke?!

[sangluss]

Originally posted by Zilla:

To Nutwrench: If 3DR leave it on that engine images/icons/grin.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you mean that they 'propably' use build as a editor for DNF?

No! Those guys use the Unreal Engine!

[Mortuus47]

Originally posted by Kef Nukem:
Mortuus, are you saying you're still mapping for Duke?!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since yesterday, actually. It occurred to me that in all my time building I only ever released one decent map despite starting several more that were great but never completed. So I resumed work on what is currently known as MORTDM47. I'd like to describe it as being inspired by the Quake 3 style, but I'll be honest and say it's inspired by BOBDM1.

Some badass spritework in there, if I do say so myself. However, it's not finished (the spritework, that is). You think sprites are a bitch now, you try having a year away from Build then doing them. I've gone back to having BUILDHLP open while I Build.

It's shaping up nicely and my partial conversion will be done afterwards. This is all currently for 1.3d, btw. Think I should move on to Atomic? images/icons/tongue.gif

[sangluss]

Yeah, why not?

I wish you good luck (with building, duh)...and don't wish me any luck (or well) because their will never be a map from me on the internet images/icons/frown.gif

[Kef Nukem]

Hey that would be cool Mortuus a Tc from you images/icons/smile.gif I'm always expecting some good stuff from these old dukers.

And Sangluss, why not? You just need to focuss on "getting good skills" not on releasing a map. Read alot of stuff and take a look at other's maps as well. Ok I understand you're only 10 years old and reading English might be a little hard but just try, I learned it too when I was like 11 years old.. just scream DADDY!! WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? and you'll (hopefully images/icons/smile.gif ) get the answer. After collecting some ideas and stuff from here and there, make a map and it will kick ass.

Anyway, I haven't released too much User Maps as well.. I've made tons of maps for Tc's.. some have never been released.. some haven't been used.. and others have but that's only like 60% of what I've made. I also have alot of unfinished stuff. I think that will never get finished but I don't care actually images/icons/smile.gif You people will just have to do it with my Tc's maps that are in:

Xorcist (whoops not released )
FutureStrike (whoops not released)
Pray Your Prayers Episode 2 (whoops not released)
Black Bag Ops ( (whoops not released (yet))
Climatic Return (whoops not released)
Borg Nukem (yes released!)
Grins of Divinity (yes released!)

Oh yeah, the 007 Tc as well.. but those maps are on www.planetduke.com/msdn (http://www.planetduke.com/msdn) now ;-)


And well I worked for alot more TC's, damn can't even remember.. can you? images/icons/smile.gif

[ 05-20-2002, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Kef Nukem ]

[Kef Nukem]

DELETE THIS POST..

[ 05-20-2002, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Kef Nukem ]

[Kef Nukem]

AND DELETE THIS ONE AS WELL

[ 05-20-2002, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Kef Nukem ]

[Mortuus47]

Okay Kef. Fancy doing me an episode? images/icons/tongue.gif

I could restart Blazing Torch, but that might be taking the piss somewhat since I didn't actually start it or come up with the name.

[Kef Nukem]

Sorry but I stopped mapping and it doesn't work with XP images/icons/frown.gif if you would have asked me this a few months ago I would have said YES.. sorry man, I hate to say no...

[Mortuus47]

Do like I do. Dual boot, baby. ^_^

I haven't actually got WinXP installed yet though. But my system is neatly partitioned and ready for dual boot so I can still play Duke and Build.

Now... how does one get around the bug of the screen palette not changing with walk-in water? images/icons/tongue.gif

[Kef Nukem]

You can change the "underwater" palette into the Duke palette just use that OpenGL Build thingey for it (although that doesn't seem to work here on ME/2k/XP.. maybe it's my videocard..oh well images/icons/smile.gif

[Carger2000]

O.T Didnt you and Mort had huge wars on some duke3d site's forums, a long time ago?
(like with me ROFL)

[ 05-21-2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Carger2000 ]

[Kef Nukem]

Doh, can't remember those wars.. it was more the former Cyborg (I forgot his nickname at Dukeworld) having wars with people images/icons/smile.gif

[Bean]

Originally posted by bobaverill:

I'm having a very hard time acclimating to UnrealED.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, keep sticking with UnrealED. If you want a fighting chance with the next gen Unreal engined games, you'll need to know UnrealED in and out.

[sangluss]

Originally posted by Kef Nukem:
Hey that would be cool Mortuus a Tc from you images/icons/smile.gif I'm always expecting some good stuff from these old dukers.

And Sangluss, why not? You just need to focuss on "getting good skills" not on releasing a map. Read alot of stuff and take a look at other's maps as well. Ok I understand you're only 10 years old and reading English might be a little hard but just try, I learned it too when I was like 11 years old.. just scream DADDY!! WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? and you'll (hopefully images/icons/smile.gif ) get the answer. After collecting some ideas and stuff from here and there, make a map and it will kick ass.

Anyway, I haven't released too much User Maps as well.. I've made tons of maps for Tc's.. some have never been released.. some haven't been used.. and others have but that's only like 60% of what I've made. I also have alot of unfinished stuff. I think that will never get finished but I don't care actually images/icons/smile.gif You people will just have to do it with my Tc's maps that are in:

Xorcist (whoops not released )
FutureStrike (whoops not released)
Pray Your Prayers Episode 2 (whoops not released)
Black Bag Ops ( (whoops not released (yet))
Climatic Return (whoops not released)
Borg Nukem (yes released!)
Grins of Divinity (yes released!)

Oh yeah, the 007 Tc as well.. but those maps are on www.planetduke.com/msdn (http://www.planetduke.com/msdn) now ;-)


And well I worked for alot more TC's, damn can't even remember.. can you? images/icons/smile.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Um...sorry Kef, but I know nearly every english word. graemlins/wid.gif

But I gotta say your "bibelstory images/icons/wink.gif " gave me a little (yes, a little) to continue.

It will take some time when I'm going to start a new map because I'm more playing Age Of Empires II: The "C" Expansions.
I planned Doel weeks ago, but still haven't started, and gues why...Anyway, you'll hear it if I started Doel.

[Guest]

Well Mort, of our original team you always were lagging behind Chris...But he hasn't mapped for ages, and the last stuff you showed me was pretty astounding. I can't wait to see what you come up with for MortDM47. Honestly I was a little disappointed with BobDM1, it was my first map in the "Bob" series NOT to use all available sectors and I felt it could have been bigger, but I mostly wanted to try out some new design ides and effects.

I'm tempted to go back into BUILD mapping after the lackluster ending of Bobsp3 (I ran out of sectors, gimme a break) but I'm eager to move on to DNF and I'm having a very hard time acclimating to UnrealED.

If I ever get sound working on my main PC again, who knows, I may yet throw together a few maps for good 'ol Duke3d. images/icons/smile.gif

[Mortuus47]

Wow. Thanks Bob. I'll be sure to finish MortDM47, but it is turning to shit because I'm a little out of touch with Build. I'll probably go back to the old beta I'm working from or delete a load of stuff then plan better.

I considered getting into UnrealEd and I actually had a go at mapping for Quake II, but I didn't like it. I don't like these new engines at all, but I love Build. The challenge is working within the limitations to create masterpieces to impress those who know just what you have to work with. It's an ideal comprimise between the DooM engine and the Quake style engines. You can just about make anything you like in Duke somehow (which you couldn't in DooM) but you still have to find ways around the limitations. It's that which I enjoy the most (also, it's the only map editing program I know how to use well enough to make something releaseable ^_^).

How come I'm not seeing you on MSN much anymore, Bob?

[Guest]

I use Trillian now. And I'm seriously considering mapping for Doom3 instead...but I don't think I could keep myself from having a go at DNF mapping, it's just too tempting!

[Mortuus47]

Doesn't Trillian have MSN support?

[Mortuus47]

Thought so. Bob...?

[Joe Siegler]

It does.

[Guest]

I dunno, you never show up on it.

[Mortuus47]

Tried adding mortuus47@hotmail.com to it? I don't know if adding again would help or not.

[Zilla]

Interesting. We went from design techniques to something completely different. graemlins/hhg.gif

[No. 1 fan]

Hey, i build all the time, exept parellexing never works, any ideas?

[NutWrench]

Originally posted by No. 1 fan:
Hey, i build all the time, exept parellexing never works, any ideas?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In what way doesn't it work?

[sangluss]

Originally posted by sangluss:
because their will never be a map from me on the internet images/icons/frown.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gues I was wrong lol images/icons/tongue.gif Supa rulezzzzz!!!!

[Kef Nukem]

Originally posted by NutWrench:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by No. 1 fan:
Hey, i build all the time, exept parellexing never works, any ideas?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In what way doesn't it work?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess his "P" button is stuffed with dust which make it not work.

[Zilla]

Or he tries to parallax a wall. graemlins/doh.gif
beat me to death for this comment graemlins/hhg.gif

[martyd]

There is something weird about parallaxing I have experienced from time to time. I don't know if any of you other guys might know what I'm even talking about, but there are times I would apply the starry sky and try to parallax it and I would get this "whirlpool" effect, all the stars are stretched in a circle around a center point above your head like your spinning or something. I'd unparallax it and it would be "normal", parallax again and the same thing happens. I looked at other levels for any differences like palette, shade, hitag, lotag and stuff and can't find a thing wrong. It also seems to just "happen" at random. Anybody else seen this? It beats the hell outa me! graemlins/doh.gif

[Phoenix]

martyd

From the Build FAQ hosted at my SST Files site:

"There are also 3 different versions of parallaxed skies, and you can press [CTRL]+[P] on the sky in 3D mode to get the three different versions."

If this does not help, you may have more then one sky texture on your map. In this case get rid of the other one. Only one texture/per map. I learned that the very hard way images/icons/grin.gif

[alejandro]

Originally posted by Phoenix:
If this does not help, you may have more then one sky texture on your map. In this case get rid of the other one. Only one texture/per map. I learned that the very hard way images/icons/grin.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also take note that it will only happen if you have a changing texture like LA or Bigorbit, otherwise you'll have no problem images/icons/shocked.gif And I also had a hard time in a map before learning that images/icons/tongue.gif but what martyd says happens to all us, but the "whirlpool" effect won't appear in the game, but if it's annoying you in Build you can fix it in the way that Phoenix says.

[ 07-31-2002, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: alejandro ]

[martyd]

What you both say sounds familiar, and the two textures thing I believe I found before. But it's still the dardest thing, I'll have to look at it again, it always takes me by surprise and dopey never seems to remember what to do with it! graemlins/dopefish.gif graemlins/dopefish.gif graemlins/dopefish.gif graemlins/dopefish.gif graemlins/dopefish.gif

(that's a FIVE DOPEFISH rating!)

Thanx, guys!

[Zilla]

Does somebody remember Redneck Rampage and played it? In my opinion, it has the best level-design of all released build games yet. Sorry, 3dR, I'm not gonna piss off the Duke right now, but it's a fact. The wall and sector counts where much higher.
But nobody can beat Duke3d's gameplay, that another fact images/icons/wink.gif .
For those who played it: Remember that level set up in a mine? There was some sort of a drilling machine and somehow they managed a real room over room effect there, without the use of floor-ceiling warps...
I never created a map for RR, so I cannot tell what the possibilities of the engine are.
They used sprites and managed to slope them. That would be a reason, but I don't think it's possible with the Build-Engine