Game Programming Question

[SRTDeagle]

OK guys. I have been having a heck of a time trying to figure out what to do. I am stuck between two job types for the gaming industry to school for. The two degree programs are as follows:

1) BA in Game Art and Design
2) BA in Game Software Development

Here's the deal. I am already halfway through my BA in Game Art and Design, and I do enjoy it. I have just been getting second thoughts lately. I've been wanting to try programming for years, but never knew where to proceed. I am thinking of changing my major over but I don't want to make a mistake. I just want to get an opinion on this matter. What is game programming like in comparison to game art and design such as 3d modeling. I love the 3D stuff, it's awesome. And I do understand that programming requires tons of time and technique, but that's OK. I just need a little info so I can weigh out the pros and cons. Please help me guys, I'd appreciate it. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

George: Your input on this would be greatly appreciated.

[George Broussard]

SRTDeagle said:
OK guys. I have been having a heck of a time trying to figure out what to do. I am stuck between two job types for the gaming industry to school for. The two degree programs are as follows:

1) BA in Game Art and Design
2) BA in Game Software Development

Here's the deal. I am already halfway through my BA in Game Art and Design, and I do enjoy it. I have just been getting second thoughts lately. I've been wanting to try programming for years, but never knew where to proceed. I am thinking of changing my major over but I don't want to make a mistake.


IMO, programming is not something you wake up and decide to try one day. It also takes a long time to become a good programmer. While you can learn enough (maybe) to get an entry level job in a couple of years (maybe) I would think that the fact that you've never pursued it before, or even looked seriously into it, is a serious indication that it's not for you.

A lot of game programmers are self taught and they picked up mods for games and wrote code and learned the basics of programming. You need to do most of that before you ever even pursue higher education, imo, to have a real shot at it.

With art, you are either a good artist, or not, and usually you can draw to some degree before you get into school, then you just get more polished and broaden your horizons.

Ultimately you have to make the decision on what's best for you. But programming is very technical and can be quite demanding. It's not something you just wake up (halfway through another degree) and decide to try. Especially if you've never programmed before.

[clayasaurus]

If you are half way through your art degree and enjoy it, then why switch?

There is no easy way to become a good programmer, just a lot of time, effort, learning, and experience.

[DudeMiester]

clayasaurus said:
If you are half way through your art degree and enjoy it, then why switch?

There is no easy way to become a good programmer, just a lot of time, effort, learning, and experience.



I'd say the same about artistry. The hardest thing for most people about programming is understanding it in it's true abstract nature. Most people just see the code and syntax, but have a hard time seeing the logic and flow that it expresses. In that way, programming is much like other forms of art, in that you strive to take an abstract concept, and express it in a way others can understand (it's just in this case that other is usually a compiler). If you are good at logic and abstract thinking, I see no reason why you can't learn programming. You just have to learn the syntax, like a painter learns the brush, canvas and palette.

Even if you don't end up doing it professionally, it's definitly good experiance. So I'd recommend you get a good compiler (e.g VC++ 7.1), find some good websites (gamedev.net or msdn.microsoft.com) or a book or take a course or any combination of the above, and learn to program. You can do it in your spare time, and it can really be an eye-opener.

[Night Hacker]

Stick with what you enjoy.

[pjohnsonjr]

George makes a good point,

I'm a few short months away from graduating in graphics and simulations programming (in the field of Computer Science). The thing with programming is, it's not like programming a clicker to operate with a tv. It isn't as easy as playing the games, which is a popular misconception I saw when I first got into school. I've picked up the basics of programming since 7th grade (when I was plugging around in QBASIC and another editor, one made by Interplay which is no longer around).

The basics served me well, then I started moving into C++. That's where I basically picked up in college. My first course was a QBASIC course that was a "pruning" course to eliminate those who weren't going to make it. That class started with 30 people, dropped to 7 in the final weeks of the course. In Introduction to C++ (course title) it started with 30 more, it dropped to about 10 by the end.

George is so right about you don't wake up one day and decided to program, because it's one of those things that is like a car crashing into the wall at 70 mph, it's an eye opener if you don't know where you're going with it. I decided around 6th grade I wanted to figure out how to make games, my dad explained about the programming and after I found QBasic I started. I tweaked with mods, primarily Duke3D, which I was working on a KISS mod that never took off because I never found the ultimate help I needed. But from what I did, it taught me a bit.

As far as programming, it can be taught, but most of the basics is learned by self-ed not by a teacher engraining it to you.

George also makes a good point about art, you're good or you're not. It's in this level where you won't get the ease like High School art classes. You either got it or you won't, because art is a talent, that's why theres so few Rembrandts or Michaelangelos. You can be a crude artist going in, but the purpose of the degree is to fine tune you. If you can be a polished artist, it sells yourself better. But in art you will have very critical critiques and stringent reqiurements.

Also if you're shooting to design games, you have to bust your hump in some other field of game development before you get to become a project lead or game designer. It doesn't happen overnight. Most of the people who design games were once programmers, artists or some other field in the game development process. If I remember correctly, George didn't start on project lead unless it was his own project, but correct me if I'm wrong. But I really can't talk about what George's accomplishments are because everybody's journey into the game industry is a far different and unique experience. Some make it and some don't.

[SRTDeagle]

I really appreciate all your advice guys. It means a lot to me. The thing is, I never just woke up half-way through my degree and decided I wanted to program. This is something I wanted to do for years but just never sat down and tried. I'm thinking that I'm just going to learn C++ on my own while finishing up my degree. I may take off with it and go crazy or I may not. I will say though, I really enjoy computer animation and design. I have a creative mind, and I feed on that sort of stuff. I know what needs to be done now. I appreciate all your help guys, thanks again.

[Kristian Joensen]

Would it be possible for you to get some kind of dual degree/double major ?

If it turns out that you like AND are good at programming you could if possible do that.

[tpz]

George, don't your 'programming-fingers' ever itch anymore? I know you've been programming games in the past.You probably don't have any time to do such things now, but wouldn't you like doing a small project if you had the time, like back in the days?

[Ronald McDonald]

SRTDeagle said:
I really appreciate all your advice guys. It means a lot to me. The thing is, I never just woke up half-way through my degree and decided I wanted to program. This is something I wanted to do for years but just never sat down and tried. I'm thinking that I'm just going to learn C++ on my own while finishing up my degree. I may take off with it and go crazy or I may not. I will say though, I really enjoy computer animation and design. I have a creative mind, and I feed on that sort of stuff. I know what needs to be done now. I appreciate all your help guys, thanks again.



I'm learning C++ too atm. I can tell ya, if you don't have any other language for basis, it's going to be hard to understand the basics of C++.
I diden't have any basis before C++, but I understand all the basic concepts now.
One thing I hate about C++ is that it knows nothing about GUI http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif All stuff I make to practice is all console based p00 programms http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

btw I heard about a thing called Qt3. It's used for making GUI functions/stuff in C++.
Anyone have experience with it?

[DudeMiester]

Ronald McDonald said:
I'm learning C++ too atm. I can tell ya, if you don't have any other language for basis, it's going to be hard to understand the basics of C++.
I diden't have any basis before C++, but I understand all the basic concepts now.
One thing I hate about C++ is that it knows nothing about GUI http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif All stuff I make to practice is all console based p00 programms http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

btw I heard about a thing called Qt3. It's used for making GUI functions/stuff in C++.
Anyone have experience with it?



You have to use an API to do the GUI. C++ is an OS independant programming language, and GUI is an OS dependant feature. So you have to use the OS's GUI API or a library that uses the API to make a GUI. In windows that API is WIN32 and GDI and GDI+ and OpenGL and DirectX and writing directly to VRAM and the console and more I'm sure. There's also a LOT more stuff you can do with those APIs too.

[Grudge]

Programming is easy - any smuck can do it. Take it from me (I'm a very profecient C++ programmer, and also a developer on a popular open source forum) that programming is nothing more than following simple logic.

Art however is a real skill. You could spend six months teaching me how to draw, how to paint, how to model - and I still wouldn't get it. If you enjoy what you're doing - and have the determination to go the distance - stick with it.

The grass is always greener on the other side - but it's not. If you have talent use it - don't waste your time learning something that you'll probably never be better than average at.

[Ronald McDonald]

Which open source forum?

[Vexed]

Grudge said:
Programming is easy - any smuck can do it. Take it from me (I'm a very profecient C++ programmer, and also a developer on a popular open source forum) that programming is nothing more than following simple logic.


I beg to differ. Not everyone has the right mindset to follow that simple logic. I see it all around me in my courses. There are also so many subjects within programming, one more complex than the other.

Both art and programming require a certain mindset, ironically I believe it's the same sort; you need to see things in their most abstract form (reduce an object to it's most basic lines for drawing). Both require lots of experience to actually be good at.

[Cerberus_e]

Vexed said:

Grudge said:
Programming is easy - any smuck can do it. Take it from me (I'm a very profecient C++ programmer, and also a developer on a popular open source forum) that programming is nothing more than following simple logic.


I beg to differ. Not everyone has the right mindset to follow that simple logic.



I agree, sometimes you're before some kind of programming challenge, when you find it out yourself, it's rewarding http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif and you'll be happy you learned mathematics http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ronald McDonald]

...you learned mathematics http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


I diden't http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I hate math FFS http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Cerberus_e]

it's my second best "vak" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ronald McDonald]

lol @ de studiebol http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

[SRTDeagle]

After much thinking about this, I decided to stick with my BA in Game Art and Design. I really enjoy it and it's quite rewarding. Like anything in the gaming industry, these projects and tasks take time. But the end result is worth the effort. I was going to The International Academy of Design and Technology - Tampa (www.academy.edu) for a BA in Fine Arts (computer animation) but since moved. I will now be continuing my education online (since there are no colleges that offer what I want near me) at Westwood College Online which can be found at www.westwoodonline.edu. (http://www.westwoodonline.edu.) I am half way through my BA in Fine Arts from IADT, and now will be continuing with Westwood's BA in Game Art and Design. The only difference is they use 3D Studio Max as their main 3D program in their curriculum. IADT used Maya. I had a lot of fun with Maya, but I'm not familiar with 3D Studio Max (yet). I wonder how different it will be. But on another note, I have another question for George:

George: When hiring anyone with a 3D or artist background, what is the main thing that you look for in a person? (I'm assuming their work speaks louder than their education) The reason I am asking, I wanted to get an opinion on the Game Art and Design degree offered at Westwood Online (www.westwoodonline.edu). It is all done from home since it's an online school. When I was going to school at IADT for this sorta thing, I did most of my actual learning on my own at home anyway. Please give me your opinion. Thanks buddy.

[Vasyl]

SRTDeagle said:
After much thinking about this, I decided to stick with my BA in Game Art and Design. I really enjoy it and it's quite rewarding. Like anything in the gaming industry, these projects and tasks take time. But the end result is worth the effort. I was going to The International Academy of Design and Technology - Tampa (www.academy.edu) for a BA in Fine Arts (computer animation) but since moved. I will now be continuing my education online (since there are no colleges that offer what I want near me) at Westwood College Online which can be found at www.westwoodonline.edu. (http://www.westwoodonline.edu.) I am half way through my BA in Fine Arts from IADT, and now will be continuing with Westwood's BA in Game Art and Design. The only difference is they use 3D Studio Max as their main 3D program in their curriculum. IADT used Maya. I had a lot of fun with Maya, but I'm not familiar with 3D Studio Max (yet). I wonder how different it will be. But on another note, I have another question for George:

George: When hiring anyone with a 3D or artist background, what is the main thing that you look for in a person? (I'm assuming their work speaks louder than their education) The reason I am asking, I wanted to get an opinion on the Game Art and Design degree offered at Westwood Online (www.westwoodonline.edu). It is all done from home since it's an online school. When I was going to school at IADT for this sorta thing, I did most of my actual learning on my own at home anyway. Please give me your opinion. Thanks buddy.



We just finished level 3 and need to tighten up the graphics a little bit. Great! Hey, can you believe we got jobs doing this all day? Yeah! We play video games all day! We're game programmers!!! YEAH!!!

[/stupid commercial rant]

NO

Sorry, whenever I see westwood, I go nuts. "Can you believe we got jobs playing video games all day?" No, I can't, because that isn't a job, that's playing video games. QA is NOT "playing video games all day". Development is NOT "playing video games all day".

I can answer your question, a degree from Westwood means pretty much jack all. Sure it can help, but in the end, if you do kick ass work, and can work well in a team, you get hired. If you go up to any employer (and I'm sure this includes GB) and say "I play video games all day at Westwood", they'll laugh at you. Hard. Maybe even right in front of you ...

My advice (I have software development experience, not game development, but I imagine the business process isn't too dissimilar) is to get some real world experience. Do whatever you need to do on the side ... if that's Westwood, fine. If it's some other college fine. If it's sitting on your butt being creative making art and programming, fine. Hell if that means getting together with a group of people and putting a little game together, go for it! If you end up with something cool you can add it to your portfolio. If you can though, try to find an internship/temp position in the field somewhere. Something you can build on and move forward with. You have to get your foot in the door eventually, might as well go for it now.

But for the love of all things pure, please don't be misguided by Westwood's inane commercial. Or any other "get a bachelor's degree in 12 months" college for that matter.

[Night Hacker]

One thing I noticed with 3DRealms is that they all seem to really enjoy what they're doing. I think that if you enjoy what you do and you're educated as well, you have a better chance of succeeding and it will show in your work.

[Ronald McDonald]

One thing I noticed with 3DRealms is that they all seem to really enjoy what they're doing.



Yeah, who doesn't enjoy eating pizza and watch strippers all day http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif Lemme join, k http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[SRTDeagle]

As far as Westwood is concerned... I know they try making it sound like all you do is play games all day. That is not true... and I know this. It's about expanding my current education and turning my 2 years into a 4-year degree. Where I live there is nothing local, so I have to do it online. Westwood has some nice classes in the BA of Game Art and Design and I'm looking forward to it. But as the part where you said the commercials talk about playing games all day, I agree. That is absolutely ridiculas. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[PlayfulPuppy]

Grudge said:
Programming is easy - any smuck can do it. Take it from me (I'm a very profecient C++ programmer, and also a developer on a popular open source forum) that programming is nothing more than following simple logic.

Art however is a real skill. You could spend six months teaching me how to draw, how to paint, how to model - and I still wouldn't get it. If you enjoy what you're doing - and have the determination to go the distance - stick with it.

The grass is always greener on the other side - but it's not. If you have talent use it - don't waste your time learning something that you'll probably never be better than average at.



Heh, I can tell you this, doing both REALLY screws with your head at times. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I do both, one professionaly and one as a hobby, and even doing both I can tell you the grass generally does seem greener elsewhere depending on what you're doing. If I'm doing art and someone else is doing programming, I wanna do programming. If I'm doing programming and someone else is doing art, same thing.

I'm not formally educated in either, but I can tell you this; it shows. In good ways and in bad, however. I can generally come up with fairly unique solutions, but I lack the consistancy, polish and speed of a formerly trained person.

To get the best of both worlds, I'd probably say Georges solution was the best; learn for yourself before you get a formal education. This way you'll be able to see past the standard curriculum crap they teach you (So you dont just become 'Another guy with a piece of paper') while working under deadlines, standards and working around like-minded people will really help evoke a professional side to your work.

As for effort/reward in both areas, I think I prefer programming. With programming, it's normally immediately obvious if something isn't working the way it should which can help define cleaner goals. Art, on the other hand, has a tendency to always feel vague and unfinished. "There's more I can do to this.. but what?" and "Something's wrong, but I can't figure it out!" tend to crop up a lot. Then you have someone to the left of you saying it's the best thing ever and someone to the right saying it's utter crap.

But yeah, you cant really *teach* someone to be a good artist, although you can learn. It all really comes down to determination and a level-of-standard. Some people are happy with something that represents what they're trying to portray ("Hell, it's got arms, legs and a head, it looks like a guy enough for me") and some people aren't happy until they can show their art to someone and have them say "Hey, what movie's that from?". Couple that with observation ("I see, the eyes line up with the ears!") and a good healthy dose of experimentation, and generally you'll start making some good progress.

[Tedades]

I'm programming from my +/-12, and I'm still a n00b http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif
(and I'm a lot older now!)

I can make a big database driven application, I also do embedded software.
But I just didnt make a real cool game, just to much work that I wouldnt understand right now.

Maybe in a year of two, but I couldnt if I never programmed before.

[Kristian Joensen]

Hmm... are you good at math ?

[Tedades]

Kristian Joensen said:
Hmm... are you good at math ?



Not really, but I do when I really understand the problem.
I just forget very fast http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[CronoMan]

I were in the oppsite position before I made up my mind, I was going to study graphical design (which I had an interrest in)
People always said "damn, you're good at drawing" which I am not, I'm just a little above average. But anyways, I've always been programming, and I like that best. I extremely happy I didn't choose to study graphical design. You should stick to what you like and know best. No matter what, or you will regret it forever :S Of course, programming is fun, but if it's not "in your blood" you're going to get really tired of it. And after all, it is a choice that can mean "life or extreme boredom". And programming means you have to know all kinds of shit too. Math and physics isn't enough, sometimes it's like you have to know everything from the lives of the common house-rats to supersonic airplanes.

[Vexed]

OMGOSH you have just given me an idea for an excellent game! Super sonic air rats!

[Tedades]

Vexed said:
OMGOSH you have just given me an idea for an excellent game! Super sonic air rats!


A side scroller game?

sounds fun. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CronoMan]

Vexed said:
OMGOSH you have just given me an idea for an excellent game! Super sonic air rats!



Sounds like something that could be the new theme-game for XBox 360!

[Vexed]

Haha
/quickly patents while noone is looking

$_$!!

Yeah, a side scroller or a down scroller.

The rat will fly backwards and fire poo pellets at enemies. Various sorts of food will float around and change the attributes of the pellets? =D?

[Tedades]

Like this?

[SippyCup]

Hey guys. This may be a pointless post, since most people interested in programming know about these tools, but it's intended for those of you who are interested in C++ programming and haven't progressed past boring console file input-output stuff (which sucks, I know, 'cause I barely have).

A pretty decent free integrated development environment (IDE) is called Eclipse. I have only used it a couple of times, but it does include GUI programming. I have programmed with VB .NET and I can tell you this is significantly harder, but if you have VB .NET experience, it will help you. Definitely search for tutorials on this.

http://www.eclipse.org

Also, if you want to develope for a UNIX environment, you should download Cygwin, which is sort if like a Linux emulator for the developer. If you're used to programming in a UNIX or Linux environment, download this tool and get a UNIX/Linux version of Eclipse. You can then program in a UNIX/Linux environment while still on Windows.

Of course the best way to do it is to have a huge hard drive/second computer and download Linux.

http://www.cygwin.com

And of course, you need to go to sourceforge. You will find many useful notes here, and trust me, you will need them to even get this stuff installed. It's quite a chore just to find it and get all the right stuff downloaded. If I can get with my old C++ instructor and have him give me some links, I'll post them as an edit. You will need to search for Eclipse and Cygwin tutorials here.

http://www.sourceforge.net

Also, if you're interested in Direct X, a decent book for you is Direct 3D Programming Kick Start by SAMS publishing. It's cheap and fairly simple. I haven't gone through the whole book yet, but it's pretty straightforward.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/det...nce&s=books (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0672324989/qid=1121795695/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-1410252-5002303?v=glance&s=books)

For you guys using VB .NET, check out Managed Direct X Kick Start. It's the same price, same publisher, same series, but it covers all aspects of Direct X (DirectPlay for networking, 3D for graphics, all of it).

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/det...glance&st=* (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0672325969/ref=pd_sr_ec_cs_aps-koth-pa1/104-1410252-5002303?v=glance&st=*)

I'm no programming guru or anything.. it's been about 5 months since I downloaded and installed Cygwin and Eclipse at school, and we didn't use it much because the end of the semester was coming up, so I won't be able to answer any technical problems you have with these tools. Like I said, though, I'll try to post some links to good tutorials.

Anyway, go forth and explore!

[Vexed]

Tedades said:
Like this?


You sir, should be a concept artist. Brilliant! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I'd totally give the rat a aerodynamic suit or atleast a cape to top it off, though.

By the way, excellent post by SippyCup. I might check some of that stuff out.