View Full Version : The best ( probably ) prey pc?
Geoffrey
08-04-2005, 07:21 AM
The dealio is that prey is looking awesome so far - and it's the only new fps that made me somewhat excited. So, since my family is going to buy a new house-pc soon, I'm trying to push them into buying something that can handle prey. What kind of pc would this be? Ofcourse the prey stats are still unknown but looking at doom3 and such; what would be best?
It goes without saying that I know shit about computer specs , but feel free to get tech-ni-caaal!
Orochi Avlis
08-04-2005, 07:23 AM
George said that if you were able to run Doom 3, you would be able to run Prey.
Travis
08-04-2005, 07:35 AM
Orochi Avlis said:
George said that if you were able to run Doom 3, you would be able to run Prey.
Good. I'll be able to run Prey if it comes out before I replace my horrible video card, then.
Cerberus_e
08-04-2005, 07:35 AM
Geoffrey said:
The dealio is that prey is looking awesome so far - and it's the only new fps that made me somewhat excited. So, since my family is going to buy a new house-pc soon, I'm trying to push them into buying something that can handle prey. What kind of pc would this be? Ofcourse the prey stats are still unknown but looking at doom3 and such; what would be best?
It goes without saying that I know shit about computer specs , but feel free to get tech-ni-caaal!
make sure the PC has a very good video card, something like a Geforce 6600 GT, then you'll be set for the next couple of years if your CPU and RAM is also good
FireFly
08-04-2005, 07:48 AM
I would shell out for something more powerful like an X800 XL or a 6800 GT, if you want a system that will last.
Geoffrey
08-04-2005, 08:15 AM
When is your cpu and ram good?
Cerberus_e
08-04-2005, 08:19 AM
for now, 512 mb ram is good, but that will soon change to 1024 I think.
as for CPU, I don't know.... the more the better? around 3.6-3.8 ghz I think, but don't quote me on it.
Bud Bundy
08-04-2005, 09:11 AM
Cerberus_e said:
for now, 512 mb ram is good, but that will soon change to 1024 I think.
as for CPU, I don't know.... the more the better? around 3.6-3.8 ghz I think, but don't quote me on it.
d³ needs 1 gb ram - i personelly would buy a new pc with 2 gb ram
...and 6800 arent so expensiv anymore
Orochi Avlis
08-04-2005, 09:26 AM
Bud Bundy said:
Cerberus_e said:
for now, 512 mb ram is good, but that will soon change to 1024 I think.
as for CPU, I don't know.... the more the better? around 3.6-3.8 ghz I think, but don't quote me on it.
d³ needs 1 gb ram
No it doesn't. It's perfectly playable with 512.
hell-angel
08-04-2005, 09:27 AM
Cerberus_e said:
for now, 512 mb ram is good, but that will soon change to 1024 I think.
as for CPU, I don't know.... the more the better? around 3.6-3.8 ghz I think, but don't quote me on it.
3.6-3.8 is a high end CPU, 2.8-3.0 is good enough (or amd equivalent of course). Just do NOT buy a celeron, those suck.
512 mb ram is the minimum I recommend for gaming, most (incl. me) prefer 1024 allready.
a GF 6600 GT is indeed a good video card. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
What ever you do, do NOT buy a computer from:
HP (Hewlett Packard)
Compaq (same company as HP)
Packard Bell
They generally suck in my experience and are terrible (and expensive) when it comes to upgrading.
Oh, and don't forget to get a proper sound card, that is also important. (i.e. NO integrated sound card. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
Micki!
08-04-2005, 09:29 AM
I'm planning to get a GeForce 7800 GTX... I'd expect Prey to run smoothly on that system... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Of course my PC specs must have some upgrades too then... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif
Bud Bundy
08-04-2005, 10:16 AM
Orochi Avlis said:
No it doesn't. It's perfectly playable with 512.
not on my pc
well there was a trick to run it smoothly with 512 ram
Duoae
08-04-2005, 10:37 AM
Geoffrey said:
The dealio is that prey is looking awesome so far - and it's the only new fps that made me somewhat excited. So, since my family is going to buy a new house-pc soon, I'm trying to push them into buying something that can handle prey. What kind of pc would this be? Ofcourse the prey stats are still unknown but looking at doom3 and such; what would be best?
It goes without saying that I know shit about computer specs , but feel free to get tech-ni-caaal!
Minimum spec you should want is:
Intel pentium 4 E 530 or Athlon 64 3000+
decent motherboard with SATA and PCI-Express (need not have SLI compatibilty) compatible with whatever processor you choose gigabit LAN functionality as well as USB 2 and firewire - maybe allowing upgrade to a higher chip, if you can swing it.
Geforce 6800 GT or ATI X800 XL (preferably an X850 XT)
SATA HDD (any size, depends what your family does, you may want to have two of similar size instead)
512 MB 3200 DDR RAM
Creative Audigy 2 ZS
DVD Rom (maybe writer? depends what your family needs)
CD-RW
Floppy drive?
[edit]
Some of that is actually higher than minimum spec, but i thought for future proofing that it would be best.
Mr.DJ
08-04-2005, 10:43 AM
Prey is a generation ahead of Doom3/HL2/FarCry, so of course it will have higher requirements than those games...that's plain logic thinking.
It's a matter of preference, what you should go for!
If you wanna be able to experience all the eyecandy turned on and play at acceptable framerates, a 6600GT card won't be enough.
The video from E3 was running on ATI's unreleased R520 chip, that is supposed to beat Nvidia's 7800GTX card. I would expect max details and running with 1024x768 res(and higher) will require such a card, in order to get acceptable framerates.
However, lots of people can enjoy their games with less eyecandy turned on, and they can therefore save money by buying a cheaper, past generation graphics card.
I don't know your budget or how much you feel you can spare for a graphics card, but I would recommend a 6800GT based card as minimum, if you want to be able to experience some of the eyecandy nextgen. games will feature...
The 6600GT cards, as I see it, is good value cards for todays games, but they will only run nextgen. games acceptable at low/med details.
What choice is right, is therefore individually, and depends on what your preferences are(and income perhaps http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ).
EDIT:
Hints at hardware you should aim for:
1. AMD's Athlon64 CPU's are without questions best for a gaming PC. Whatever you choose, just make sure it's a 939 socket CPU.
2. 1 GigaByte RAM. Of the DDR400 type. 1GB of RAM is recommended in todays games if you play with lots of details turned on. Nextgen. games will recommend 1GB as a minimum requirement.
3. Nforce4 based motherboard.
4. A nice powerfull graphics accelerator. This is the MAIN komponent in todays gaming PC's, so here would be the wrong place to save money. WOuld recommend a 6800GT as a minimum. IF you have a little more, you can wait for the 7800GT, which will be cheaper than the GTX.
5. Creative's sound cards is without question the leading and best soundcards for games. Would recommend a Audigy2 ZS card.
6. Whattever PC case you choose, make sure that you get a power supply that has enough headroom. Antec and Enermax are eksamples of good PSU makers. Go for 400W as a minimum.
That's it, that should get you a nice gaming rigg.
Good luck with your purcase! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Duoae
08-04-2005, 11:20 AM
500 W with a high ratio (efficiency) would be better for high-end graphics cards like the 6800 and 7800 GT.
Cerberus_e
08-04-2005, 11:28 AM
Bud Bundy said:
Orochi Avlis said:
No it doesn't. It's perfectly playable with 512.
not on my pc
well there was a trick to run it smoothly with 512 ram
you can play doom 3 with 384 mb ram, I run it smoothly with 512 mb ram (well not the entire game, but the small portions of the game where it runs a bit less that smothly is because of my FX 5200)
weird computer you have bundy, you probably work with EDO ram http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
hell-angel said:
What ever you do, do NOT buy a computer from:
HP (Hewlett Packard)
Compaq (same company as HP)
Packard Bell
you forgot dell http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Orochi Avlis
08-04-2005, 01:32 PM
Bud Bundy said:
Orochi Avlis said:
No it doesn't. It's perfectly playable with 512.
not on my pc
well there was a trick to run it smoothly with 512 ram
It runs smoothly on my rig, and I haven't altered it in any bit.
As cerb said, the mininum requirements is 384.
Parkar
08-04-2005, 03:55 PM
Mr.DJ said:
Prey is a generation ahead of Doom3/HL2/FarCry, so of course it will have higher requirements than those games...that's plain logic thinking.
...
No, its not, it's the same generation as doom 3.
If you don't belive me there is a quote from GB were he stated that if you can run doom 3 you can run Prey.
It might of course be abit more resource heavy like having more textures and higher resolution textures then doom 3 etc but it's still the same renderer.
I would not say that hl2 is the same generation as doom3 either since the way hl2 renders the game is like the older generation with added pixelshader effects.
This whole post is only about the graphics if that was unclear.
Orochi Avlis
08-04-2005, 06:46 PM
Orochi Avlis said:
Bud Bundy said:
Orochi Avlis said:
No it doesn't. It's perfectly playable with 512.
not on my pc
well there was a trick to run it smoothly with 512 ram
It runs smoothly on my rig, and I haven't altered it in any bit.
As cerb said, the mininum requirements is 384.
I made a mistake in my post.
I meant to say it ran well on my PC when I had 512.
Eli Quinn
08-04-2005, 07:05 PM
You're going to need something pretty high-end like this:
Orochi Avlis said:
Bud Bundy said:
Cerberus_e said:
for now, 512 mb ram is good, but that will soon change to 1024 I think.
as for CPU, I don't know.... the more the better? around 3.6-3.8 ghz I think, but don't quote me on it.
d³ needs 1 gb ram
No it doesn't. It's perfectly playable with 256 .
Fixed it for you.
Orochi Avlis
08-04-2005, 08:49 PM
Daniel Wilson said:
Orochi Avlis said:
Bud Bundy said:
Cerberus_e said:
for now, 512 mb ram is good, but that will soon change to 1024 I think.
as for CPU, I don't know.... the more the better? around 3.6-3.8 ghz I think, but don't quote me on it.
d³ needs 1 gb ram
No it doesn't. It's perfectly playable with 256 .
Fixed it for you.
How can you fix something that isn't an error? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
hell-angel
08-05-2005, 01:28 AM
You guys do realize that he is asking for some low costs specs don't you. Of course a $3000 system is better, but not required.
Duoae said:
Minimum spec you should want is:
Intel pentium 4 E 530 or Athlon 64 3000+
decent motherboard with SATA and PCI-Express (need not have SLI compatibilty) compatible with whatever processor you choose gigabit LAN functionality as well as USB 2 and firewire - maybe allowing upgrade to a higher chip, if you can swing it.
Geforce 6800 GT or ATI X800 XL (preferably an X850 XT)
SATA HDD (any size, depends what your family does, you may want to have two of similar size instead)
512 MB 3200 DDR RAM
Creative Audigy 2 ZS
all this high power hardware and only 512 MB ram?? then you better go for 1024 MB DDR2. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif That's more suiting for the machine. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Eli Quinn said:
You're going to need something pretty high-end like this:
Damn, I don't have that, no I will not be able to play prey. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif *cry* Please tell me you will be able to tune it down to some lower specs won't you?? *beg**pray*
http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Sounds good. Did George happen to say anything about the optimal card? I'm guessing a Radeon X800 Pro or Geforce 6800 GT. Anything over that would be overkill. That is, if your FPS are constantly over 60 at high detail, then you've got too much card. I guess I won't be upgrading. My system meets the requirements already.
hell-angel
08-05-2005, 01:31 AM
Jeff said:
Sounds good. Did he happen to say anything about the optimal card? I'm guessing a Radeon X800 Pro or Geforce 6800 GT. Anything over that would be overkill. I guess I won't be upgrading. My system meets the requirements already.
the optimal will allways be the best available. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif but 6800 GT will be good enough. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif (Unless the requirements are much higher then doom 3 of course which I doubt. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )
Someone said something about HP PCs. Let me give you guys a little hint, if you want one of those. Last PC I had (first one I bought) was an HP. Two and a half years later, do you know where it is? Sitting in the basement with a broken motherboard. That's right, it's toast.
As for my new, custom made system, I should get decent frame rates with my current X800 Pro. Lightning fast level loading times. I'm set. I do not plan to upgrade the card or anything else for that matter. Maybe the case because I should get a BTX/ATX form factor full tower when it comes time to build my next one.
hell-angel
08-05-2005, 01:39 AM
Jeff said:
Someone said something about HP PCs. Let me give you guys a little hint, if you want one of those. Last PC I had (first one I bought) was an HP. Two and a half years later, do you know where it is? Sitting in the basement with a broken motherboard. That's right, it's toast.
I said something about it and that was that you should NOT buy one. The same for Compaq (same company as HP) and Packard bell, they are slow, to expensive to upgrade and not conform to standards in the industry, whence they suck. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif
Duoae
08-05-2005, 02:49 AM
hell-angel said:
You guys do realize that he is asking for some low costs specs don't you. Of course a $3000 system is better, but not required.
Duoae said:
Minimum spec you should want is:
Intel pentium 4 E 530 or Athlon 64 3000+
decent motherboard with SATA and PCI-Express (need not have SLI compatibilty) compatible with whatever processor you choose gigabit LAN functionality as well as USB 2 and firewire - maybe allowing upgrade to a higher chip, if you can swing it.
Geforce 6800 GT or ATI X800 XL (preferably an X850 XT)
SATA HDD (any size, depends what your family does, you may want to have two of similar size instead)
512 MB 3200 DDR RAM
Creative Audigy 2 ZS
all this high power hardware and only 512 MB ram?? then you better go for 1024 MB DDR2. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif That's more suiting for the machine. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Meh, i figured that upgrading to 1024 would be cheap enough since ram is one of the cheaper components. Plus with all the RAM wars currently ongoing i'm predicting a further slump in prices next year. I was trying to keep the price down.
Processor ~ £110-150
gfx card ~ £190-220 (6800 GT)
Audigy 2 ZS ~ £60
motherboard ~ £100
RAM 1GB ~ £75 or 512 MB ~ £45
etc.
If i was going for a system that i would build then i'd have picked 2 GB (like i have atm http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )
No one needs a $3500 system to run games. I've got one, because it's an "all-in-one" system. This thing can play games, encode DVDs...If I trimmed out some of the parts, it would have only cost me $2200 or so if I wanted it only for games. Then again, I don't want to have 2 computers for 2 different purposes. Why not just combine them into one? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Damien_Azreal
08-06-2005, 03:20 PM
By the time Prey comes out I plan to have upgraded two things.
I'm going to go from 1 gig DDR2 ram to 2 gigs DDR2 ram. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
And 2, I'm going to upgrade from my 128MB x800 to a 256MB x850 XL Platinum. Found one in my price range. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I think those two upgrades will keep me going for a while.
I'll skip the X850 XT PE, and when it comes time to build a new system down the road, I'm gonna look for a Geforce 8800/9800 or beyond. The new one is not gonna be built for at least 3 years. I've still got a warranty on all my parts. The only things that have a 3+ year warranty are the RAM (lifetime), and the Seagate (5 yr) and Raptor (5 yr) hard drives.
Phayzon
08-06-2005, 07:23 PM
What ever you do, do NOT buy a computer from:
HP (Hewlett Packard)
Compaq (same company as HP)
Packard Bell
They generally suck in my experience and are terrible (and expensive) when it comes to upgrading.
Why? HP and Compaq are teh r0xor. They dont suck; you can get one with an AMD. And my moms old HP desktop (she got a new one) is easy (and cheap) to upgrade.
My HP computer had a dead motherboard after 1 1/2 years. Just to let everyone know.
Emultra
08-06-2005, 10:51 PM
Meh. If you need a whole slew of computers, then I guess you could buy a brand one. Or if you get a special deal (from work, for example) or if you absolutely can't imagine screwing some stuff into a metal box.
But other than that, build-it-yourself is the only game in town.
Or custom design one, and have someone build it locally. That's what I did. Every part in my case is upgradable. From the power supply, right down to the north bridge cooler.
Emultra
08-07-2005, 12:24 PM
Yeah, that's basically the same but with tech service. It would be better to do it your way than to get a generic brand one.
Damien_Azreal
08-07-2005, 05:00 PM
I'm currently in stuck.. should I upgrad ethe ram first, or the graphics card.
My card does a damn good job, and 2 gigs of ram could hold me over til I get enough money saved up to get a really good card.
Cerberus_e
08-07-2005, 05:03 PM
I don't understand why you would want an extra gig of ram, only to turn on or two features on very high instead of high.
I can't also understand you want a new graphics card, when you are running each game on medium/high with very solid framerates.
I am already happy if a game doesn't crash http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Damien_Azreal
08-07-2005, 05:09 PM
Preparing for the future. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
For a long ass time I used to have to play every game I got at low detail, 640*480 and still get sluggish frames.
Now it's nice to be able to keep up and play the games the way the develops intended for them to be played. And besides... FEAR is really pushing my PC in some places, specially since my gfx card only has 128MB ram.
Cerberus_e
08-07-2005, 05:21 PM
that's why I'm afraid of buying a 6600GT, I think it will get outdated so fast because of only 128 mb, while there are already 256 mb cards out now
Emultra
08-07-2005, 05:51 PM
Some people have two 7800GTX's in SLi mode, in order to play 1920x1600 (or something) at the highest settings with AA and AF.
Damien_Azreal
08-07-2005, 05:56 PM
Cerberus_e said:
that's why I'm afraid of buying a 6600GT, I think it will get outdated so fast because of only 128 mb, while there are already 256 mb cards out now
Yeah, if I were you Cerb I would go with a 256MB 6600. Don't go near the 128MB cards, they may be cheaper but they're having a hard time keeping up.
If I would've had the choice I woudl've got a 256MB card when I setup my PC. But the option wasn't available. But the 128MB gfx card is the only thing really holding my PC back.
Cerberus_e
08-07-2005, 06:01 PM
but I've heard lots of bad stuff about 256 mb cards versions that are originally supposed to be 128 mb
Emultra
08-07-2005, 09:45 PM
Where do we begin?
256MB's of video RAM (VRAM) is only useful when the video card in question can make use of it.
The 6600 cannot, essentially.
The 128MB 6600GT is much better than the 256MB vanilla 6600. The extra VRAM on the 6600 far from offsets the higher clock frequencies and other advantages on the GT, just ask on any respectable hardware forum.
As for regular RAM, there is no reason to get any less than 1024MB.
If you want more than that, though, you need to take into consideration memory speed and CAS latency penalties. This depends on the memory controller.
In the case of the Athlon64 (the current recommended CPU of choice for the gamer), if you have the Winchester core or older, you will not be able to run your RAM at DDR400 speeds; instead you will be confined to DDR333.
Having 2GB's of RAM may offset this; it is up to you. However, the newer Venice and San Diego revision cores of the Athlon64 do not have this limitation, and furthermore they pack more instructions.
If you plan on getting dual-core CPU, I don't think this'll be an issue either.
Note to <font color="orange">Damien_Azreal</font>: I recommend against getting an 850XT Platinum Edition or such. It is a waste of money. The new generation of nVidia (GeForce 7800xxx) and ATi (R520) will both offer much better cards at comparable prices.
Picture this: Before the new GeForce 7800GTX, the best you could have was two GF 6800 Ultras in SLi mode. This cost about $1000, or $800 recently.
Now, a single 7800GTX matches or beats the two 6800 Ultras, and for a price of $500 and less hassle.
What does this mean to you? Well, it means that the model you can afford for the 850XTPE's price - the GF 7800GT (or the ATi equivalent, don't know it's model name yet) - will pretty much eat the 850, if you want to shell out that much money.
Just a thought. The 850XTPE was never price-competitive for its performance, and even when the new big boys in town come and crush it, the price is essentially the same. Go with the new heavy duty performers instead of the old, overpriced monarchs, if you want the best.
hell-angel
08-08-2005, 02:02 AM
Well, I have the following system:
256 Mb GF6800 Ultra OC
1024 MB DDR2
SB Audigy ZS 2
3x 74GB Raptor 10,000 RPM (== 222 GB http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )
19" CRT monitor
And man, does that thing run. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif
Damien_Azreal
08-08-2005, 09:13 PM
Emultra, well... recommend all you want. I have had terrible experiences in the past with Nvidia. So I'll pass on the 7800, plus I don't have a mother board compatible with SLI.
I've never had a problem with ATi, so I'm one of the lukey ones huh? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif But, I like to stay a step behind the generation jumps in graphic cards... so getting a x850 XL when ATi releases the new card works for me.
It's how I've always done it. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Besides, I dont' have to have the uber best card/pc out there. I just like to keep up.
Emultra
08-09-2005, 08:21 AM
I wasn't recommending only nVidia.
It's just a waste of money to get the overpriced 850's when you can have a better card for the same money. If you want to, you can have the R520.
WillisDM
08-09-2005, 02:00 PM
Well put Emultra! Saved me from making the post... (and its 1920x1200 for widescreen and 1920x1440 for 4:3 fyi)
And also, you don't need a motherboard capable of SLI to run a single Nvidia pci express card.
Emultra
08-09-2005, 06:36 PM
Thanks. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
(You still got that Blood package we talked about? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
Damien, it's your money and your call. But you'll be making a mistake by getting the 850, and I thought I'd try to get you to avoid that. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
hell-angel said:
3x 74GB Raptor 10,000 RPM (== 222 GB http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )
You bet. I've got the 36 GB model, and got a pair for RAID 0. I don't need the storage space (at 10,000 RPM that is. That's what a 7200 RPM drive can provide), but it's nice to have this thing fly through certain tasks. Even loading programs seems much faster. Like getting a CPU upgrade. At least from a hard drive stand point.
DudeMiester
08-09-2005, 11:57 PM
You know 75% of the waiting when you load a program is it waiting for the HD, lol. However a RAID0 is only good if you have a good backup system, preferably a mirror of the RAID0 on another large drive.
DudeMiester said:
However a RAID0 is only good if you have a good backup system, preferably a mirror of the RAID0 on another large drive.
I've got a system in place, where I put all my documents and important stuff onto one of my other drives. May have to re-install Windows and the programs, but I've got my documents safe. RAID goes down, I still have my files on the backup drive. I did make a copy of everything I had on the array, and put it on the backup drive. Not an image, but I used Windows backup program to do it.
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.