Aftermath trailer

[laffer]

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/halfli..._flashtop_watch (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/halflife2aftermath/media.html?gcst=hl2aftermath_ot_pc_080905.asx&tag=gs_hp_flashtop_watch)

Enjoy http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[FireFly]

Oooh at the G-Man.

[Orochi Avlis]

It looks like it's going to be very dark.

Is it me, or does G-Man sound pissed?

[laffer]

Ye he does http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I think that's very interesting, perhaps he's finally about to loose grip of you? Perhaps you manage to get away from him in this game? But then, what about HL3?
It also seems that this expansion will reveal new sides of our dear Alyx, at least that's the impression I got.

I can't wait to play this. Btw, was this thing going to be released as retail or what?

[Orochi Avlis]

Yea, EA will put out boxed versions of the game.


I think that's very interesting, perhaps he's finally about to loose grip of you? Perhaps you manage to get away from him in this game? But then, what about HL3?


HL 3 could have G-Man trying to get you back.

[FireFly]

Retail, yes. At the same time? No idea.

[Cerberus_e]

laffer said:
I think that's very interesting, perhaps he's finally about to loose grip of you? Perhaps you manage to get away from him in this game? But then, what about HL3?



the story doesn't end if gordon is not under control by the GMan, the story can continue as normal in the confirmed HL3....

I doubt mysteries about the gman will be cleared up, not even in HL3 I think, valve is good at creating mysteries but they suck at clearing them up http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


FireFly said:
Retail, yes. At the same time? No idea.



aaarrgghh, good thought http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Doppelgofer]

Cerberus_e said:
valve is good at creating mysteries but they suck at clearing them up http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



the way i see it, they choose not to clear them up

[FireFly]

Laidlaw recently said that he'd only answer questions if in the process he created several more.

[Mountain Man]

Yeah, man, the Gman sounds pissed!

"We'll see...about that!" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[Marty]

ooooo stalkers! now thats what im looking foward too... dont care too much for G-man

[Cerberus_e]

FireFly said:
Laidlaw recently said that he'd only answer questions if in the process he created several more.



so that means hl3 will end with a lot of questions?


Doppelgofer said:

Cerberus_e said:
valve is good at creating mysteries but they suck at clearing them up http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



the way i see it, they choose not to clear them up



well, if they don't clear them up in HL3 then the story has failed.
I like the "from gordon's perspective" thing, to create mysteries etc... but if they don't clear them up at the end (=hl3), then the story has failed IMO, because the clearing up of mysteries is as much fun as wondering how it will end.

[Nacho]

The G-man may not be pissed at Gordon but at his benefactors.

[Cerberus_e]

Nacho said:
The G-man may not be pissed at Gordon but at his benefactors.



or at breen.
I hope he's pissed at gordon, at least that will make aftermath scary then.

[FireFly]

Cerberus_e said:
so that means hl3 will end with a lot of questions?


Of course.

[Nacho]

Cerberus_e said:
so that means hl3 will end with a lot of questions?




God no!

I'm still waiting for Half Life 2 to end.

[Cerberus_e]

FireFly said:

Cerberus_e said:
so that means hl3 will end with a lot of questions?


Of course.



well, then HL's story has failed IMO http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Mountain Man]

I disagree. Some of my favorite stories are ones that don't try and wrap everything up in a neat, little package.

[Cerberus_e]

Mountain Man said:
I disagree.



I wouldn't have expected otherwise http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
but would you really like to have lots of questions after HL3? ("Now WHO was that GMan?") instead of having explained everything, in a subtle, HL style, way?

[FireFly]

There are always lots of questions unanswered, in any story. The issue is whether the big questions will be answered like "who is the G-Man" "what is your ultimate role/destiny". If they are, then I don't care if more spring up.

[Drazula]

I may pass, on the expansion... There doesn't seem like there is anything new.

[seregrail7]

I'll get it, story intrigues me.
"I hope they don't remember what they were"
Is that what Alyx says? Perhaps not all the stalkers were human.

[Cerberus_e]

FireFly said:
There are always lots of questions unanswered, in any story. The issue is whether the big questions will be answered like "who is the G-Man" "what is your ultimate role/destiny". If they are, then I don't care if more spring up.



no most games have stories where everything is answered, HL is an exception.
no one lives forever holds the second place with not saying what HARM stands for (except if I missed it).
and that's not TOO bad, all other stories are even less extreme, or have no questions at all.

anyway, maybe the questions that arise after HL3 are also big.
after playing HL1, the biggest question is "I want to know who the GMan is and I don't care for the rest"
well, suppose they explained who the GMan is, wouldn't you still wonder what the combine and dr breen are up to after playing HL2? even now your gman question of hl1 is answered?
see where I'm getting at? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mountain Man]

Cerberus_e said:
but would you really like to have lots of questions after HL3? ("Now WHO was that GMan?") instead of having explained everything, in a subtle, HL style, way?


Some questions are better left unanswered. For instance, the monolith's in 2001: A Space Odyessy. It is much better to leave them a mystery than to attempt to provide a potentially unsatisfying answer.

Personally, I found Half-Life 2's ending very satisfying, so I would not be at all disappointed if Half-Life 3 ended the same way. I hope Marc Laidlaw is smart enough to not try and explain the Gman. Leave him an enigma, I say.

[laffer]

Mountain Man, I can't believe you said that!! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
If I don't get to know who the G-man is I'll die with frustration! I hope Mark doesn't visit these pages, he could get some nasty ideas!

[Cerberus_e]

Mountain Man said:
Leave him an enigma, I say.



I hope they never hire you as storywriter to Valve

[FireFly]

Cerberus_e said:
no most games have stories where everything is answered, HL is an exception.


It's impossible to answer everything, because to do so would be the equivalent of stating every fact about the world. How does this work? Why did they start a base here? Who was involved, what were the motivations behind it?

Here's some questions taken from the Gamespot review:

Why would a 22nd-century space marine be sent into action in a darkly lit area without night vision goggles of some sort, or even a helmet? Why wouldn't any of his weapons have light-amplification modules built into them when even today's weapons frequently do? Why, instead, is he stuck carrying around a very weak flashlight with unlimited battery life? Why is he unable to hold a gun and the flashlight at the same time? Why are the UAC's small, spiderlike sentry drones so incredibly powerful? You'll see these helpful little guys rip through droves of hellspawn even faster than you can. If the base's defenses are so tough, then why is everyone so worried, and why is everyone getting killed?

You might argue that these aren't plot issues, but there a huge number of plot issues that are unanswered. For example we're told very little about the Martial civilisation, or what exactly happened to them. We're told very little about Hell or what its nature is. What is that fleshy stuff consuming the base and why is it absent in the Hell level? How did Hell start, and are the scientists right that the Imps evolved on Hell (so it's just a Hell-like dimension)? Why does Hell have such a peculiar effect on the human physiology (body)? What exactly happened to the base prior to the invasion, what was causing those disturbances? Were there actual entities coming through the portal or were people just hallucinating? Why was equipment breaking down?

I don't mean to attack Doom 3's plot, but the fact is that every game leaves questions unanswered.



well, suppose they explained who the GMan is, wouldn't you still wonder what the combine and dr breen are up to after playing HL2? even now your gman question of hl1 is answered?
see where I'm getting at? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Not if enough questions had been answered. I have a certain amount of questions I want answered and after that point it doesn't matter, and I'm happy for things to be unresolved. If anything it makes the plot stronger because it forces you to use your imagination, and everyone can decide for themselves what happened.

[dark_angel]

Drazula said:
I may pass, on the expansion... There doesn't seem like there is anything new.



Indeed. Let's hope valve in HL3 could build a story around the main character like HH and 3drealms are doing with Prey and DNF.

[FireFly]

Gordon isn't a character though.

Also, 'newness' comes from the gameplay scenarios, not just bullet point features like new weapons or enemies (although it seems like they'll be both).

[dark_angel]

If Gordon isn't the main character in HL & HL2, what is he then?

[StarBegotten]

I have to say I totally agree with you Mountian Man, I would much prefer the G-Man to remain a mystery. After all his status as an enigma is what makes him such and interesting character, take that away and what are you left with?

Look at it like a magic trick. When you see it done you immediatley what to know how it was done, but when its explained you destroy the very thing that made it so fascinating.

Best leave a few mysteries unsolved. What else are us fanboys going to have once its all over? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[laffer]

I can't believe anyone would want to leave the G-man a mystery! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

I have to know who he is, I'll never be able to enjoy HL games again if not, I'll just be annoyed by not knowing who that guy is! I need to know! I'll be bothered with this for the rest of my life! I'll go mad! Mark should give us the answer for his own safety http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[FireFly]

dark_angel said:
If Gordon isn't the main character in HL & HL2, what is he then?


When I say character I mean personality. He's basically just a big hole in the story - he can be who you want him to be. Laidlaw sees him as a device rather than a person.


StarBegotten said:
I have to say I totally agree with you Mountian Man, I would much prefer the G-Man to remain a mystery. After all his status as an enigma is what makes him such and interesting character, take that away and what are you left with?

Look at it like a magic trick. When you see it done you immediatley what to know how it was done, but when its explained you destroy the very thing that made it so fascinating.

Best leave a few mysteries unsolved. What else are us fanboys going to have once its all over? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


But it's not a magic trick, it's Gordon's entire reason for being - his destiny, his role. Without knowing why you're doing what you're doing everything becomes meaningless.

Enigma isn't always worth more than fulfilment, and in this case the entire story arc depends on you understanding your ultimate purpose or at least the reasons for your use.

[Beelze]

I like the direction they seem to be taking. Seems it'll be more desolate and spooky. I welcome revelations about the Gman and Gordon, but I'd prefer if they saved the important stuff for Half-Life 3.

[Rico]

It would be foolish to reveal everything about the G-man before the HL series is over, he's one of the main figures in the HL universe and his character is in fact one of main ties between the games.

I don't expect it'll be explained until the last HL game comes out and I'm glad for that.

[Cerberus_e]

Beelze said:
I like the direction they seem to be taking. Seems it'll be more desolate and spooky. I welcome revelations about the Gman and Gordon, but I'd prefer if they saved the important stuff for Half-Life 3.



and what if they don't clear the things up in HL3?


FireFly said:
You might argue that these aren't plot issues,



excactly, they're gameplay elements.


FireFly said:
but there a huge number of plot issues that are unanswered. For example we're told very little about the Martial civilisation, or what exactly happened to them.



hell attacked them, so they teleported everyone to earth.
your ancestors were one of them http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


FireFly said:
We're told very little about Hell or what its nature is. What is that fleshy stuff consuming the base and why is it absent in the Hell level?




hell is just a dimension where you go to after you die, full of flames etc...
that fleshy stuff is no mystery, it's just flesh, that came from hell http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif as for why it's absent in the hell level: it isn't, it's in the skybox.


FireFly said:
How did Hell start, and are the scientists right that the Imps evolved on Hell (so it's just a Hell-like dimension)? Why does Hell have such a peculiar effect on the human physiology (body)?




the evolution of hell is big bang related, not doom 3 related.
by that logic every game needs to explain the big bang, even scientists are still clueless.
why it has a "peculiar" effect on the body? I don't know what you mean.
they are just all afraid of it, wouldn't you be shocked for life if you were there a few minutes?


FireFly said:
What exactly happened to the base prior to the invasion, what was causing those disturbances? Were there actual entities coming through the portal or were people just hallucinating? Why was equipment breaking down?




well, dr betruger sabotaged it, or hell's creatures.
and there were actual species being taken from through the portals, you can see that in delta 2b.


FireFly said:
I don't mean to attack Doom 3's plot, but the fact is that every game leaves questions unanswered.




I answered all your questions, and if you still have some left:
doom 3 is no substitute for EVERY GAME, no matter how awesome it is http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


FireFly said:
Not if enough questions had been answered. I have a certain amount of questions I want answered and after that point it doesn't matter, and I'm happy for things to be unresolved. If anything it makes the plot stronger because it forces you to use your imagination, and everyone can decide for themselves what happened.



NOW you think that, but what did you think after HL?
you wanted to know who the gman and his employers are, like everyone?
didn't you think: after that it doesn't matter?
well, now HL2 is there, don't you have questions about dr breen and the combine? what about dr breen's employers?
you never know what questions arise in HL3, and I don't think "it will not mather" for you. maybe you think that now.... but just wait until you play hl3 http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Rico said:
It would be foolish to reveal everything about the G-man before the HL series is over, he's one of the main figures in the HL universe and his character is in fact one of main ties between the games.

I don't expect it'll be explained until the last HL game comes out and I'm glad for that.



that's not our point, we are worrying that the plot won't even end in HL3.

[dark_angel]

FireFly said:
When I say character I mean personality. He's basically just a big hole in the story - he can be who you want him to be. Laidlaw sees him as a device rather than a person.




You are stating this as if it is the ideal thing to be for a character in a game.

Why would Gordon be a device rather than a real character?

And when I say character I don't mean the superficial stuff in characterization, a character is what he chooses to do.

[Jokke_r]

I hope they don't reveal anything conclusive about the G-Man, it would be cool if it ended where G-Man would give gordon a clue which could either clear everything up or not actually meaning anything but to leave that for the player to deside. Because if they end up explaning the G-Man i think many will be dissapointed because it's not what they hoped.

[Beelze]

Cerberus_e said:

Beelze said:
I like the direction they seem to be taking. Seems it'll be more desolate and spooky. I welcome revelations about the Gman and Gordon, but I'd prefer if they saved the important stuff for Half-Life 3.



and what if they don't clear the things up in HL3?


Then they'll do that in Half-Life 4. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Mountain Man]

laffer said:
I can't believe anyone would want to leave the G-man a mystery! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif


In my opinion, it would be extremely difficult to come up with an explanation that is as satisfying as the mystery.

[Beelze]

They could still keep giving hints, which I hope they do. Half-Life gave some. In fact, I think Half-Life told us more about the Gman than Half-Life 2 did.

[Cerberus_e]

Mountain Man said:

laffer said:
I can't believe anyone would want to leave the G-man a mystery! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif


In my opinion, it would be extremely difficult to come up with an explanation that is as satisfying as the mystery.



but any explanation is more satisfying than an enigma when HL3 ends.


Beelze said:

Cerberus_e said:

Beelze said:
I like the direction they seem to be taking. Seems it'll be more desolate and spooky. I welcome revelations about the Gman and Gordon, but I'd prefer if they saved the important stuff for Half-Life 3.



and what if they don't clear the things up in HL3?


Then they'll do that in Half-Life 4. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



gabe disagrees with you, he said HL3 will be the last one.

[FireFly]

Cerberus_e said:
hell attacked them, so they teleported everyone to earth.
your ancestors were one of them http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Where did they come from? How technologically advanced were they? Where they exactly like us (anatomically), or were there differences? What was their society like? More relevantly why couldn't they defeat Hell if they had the soul cube? Did they not have more conventional weapons to fight Hell? Was there a big battle in which they used those?


hell is just a dimension where you go to after you die



That wasn't stated in the game. It could have simply been a Hell-like dimension.


that fleshy stuff is no mystery, it's just flesh, that came from hell http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif as for why it's absent in the hell level: it isn't, it's in the skybox.


What spawns it? And why?



the evolution of hell is big bang related, not doom 3 related.


Not really. All this occurs after the big bang. Really I'm just asking what is Hell - that place you go to if you've been very bad, or merely a Hell-like dimension? Perhaps in the universe every human being has a soul that is vulnerable, whether or not they die so Hell is merely a place where beings have learned to harvest souls (it is a border world after all).


why it has a "peculiar" effect on the body? I don't know what you mean.


It makes skin thinner and paler, along with other effects (there's an exact description in a PDA). Also while in Hell stamina is greatly increased and people can work for longer periods of time.

Also we're not talking about being shocked we're talking about complete insanity, to the point where victims are carving demonic symbols on themselves. Clearly there is something else at work.



well, dr betruger sabotaged it, or hell's creatures.
and there were actual species being taken from through the portals, you can see that in delta 2b.


But that doesn't fit with what happened. Things were going wrong everywhere and for no discernable reason. Also you say "Betruger" or "Hell's creatures". If you don't know which then it's an unanswered question.

It's also, just a guess http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif The game implies there's a real force at work making people and machinery break down.


I answered all your questions, and if you still have some left:

doom 3 is no substitute for EVERY GAME, no matter how awesome it is http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


What about the Hallucinations question?

But I've got the 'every game' angle covered because as I've said, it's impossible to know every fact about a story.


NOW you think that, but what did you think after HL?
you wanted to know who the gman and his employers are, like everyone?
didn't you think: after that it doesn't matter?
well, now HL2 is there, don't you have questions about dr breen and the combine? what about dr breen's employers?
you never know what questions arise in HL3, and I don't think "it will not mather" for you. maybe you think that now.... but just wait until you play hl3 http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


I don't actually have any major questions about Dr. Breen and the Combine. All I care about is the G-Man and that's how it was at the end of HL2.


dark_angel said:
You are stating this as if it is the ideal thing to be for a character in a game.

Why would Gordon be a device rather than a real character?

And when I say character I don't mean the superficial stuff in characterization, a character is what he chooses to do.


I think it's ideal for the HL series. Gordon needs to be a device for the player to believe that he is the main character. As soon as Gordon becomes his own person then the illusion is shattered and the player loses control.

The illusion may be weak for you, depending on your perception towards the game but the fact is that as soon as they introduce a character there will be no illusion at all.

[Cerberus_e]

you asked some good questions, but these are awfully detailled (while I'm at it: they come from mars and were very technological advanced, more than we are, they couldn't defeat hell with the soulcube because you need to kill 5 demons before you automatically have a 6th one (5 buy = one for free), and the difference with their body is that they are only legs, arms and head http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
it is hell and not hell-like though, check your doom 1 manual http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I won't answer all your questions, I have an answer to some, but others are also unanswered for me.
but does it really matter what the society of the martian guys was, when that's not THAT important to the story.
but all your big questions are answered, unlike in HL.

in HL, they leave out big questions, and that's my point.
they don't need to tell me who the husband of the woman at trainstation was. they need to tell me who breen works for, and what their intentions are.
if HL3 also leaves such big questions open, then that's something else than "why does flesh grow?" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[seregrail7]

I think trying to explain everything made the 2 Matrix sequels made them worse than the first movie. So I wouldn't mind being left in the dark.

[Cerberus_e]

seregrail7 said:
I think trying to explain everything made the 2 Matrix sequels made them worse than the first movie. So I wouldn't mind being left in the dark.



no, that didn't make the 2 matrix sequels worse, it's because it was just nothing happening, espeically reloaded.
revolution was cool I thought

[Beelze]

Cerberus_e said:

Beelze said:
Then they'll do that in Half-Life 4. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



gabe disagrees with you, he said HL3 will be the last one.


Gabe disagrees with you; they'll keep making games for as long as they have more of the story that they want to tell. Still, I thought that it was clear that I was kidding.

[Rico]

Cerberus_e said:

in HL, they leave out big questions, and that's my point.
they don't need to tell me who the husband of the woman at trainstation was. they need to tell me who breen works for, and what their intentions are.
if HL3 also leaves such big questions open, then that's something else than "why does flesh grow?" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif




Ever stop to think this might be answered in the third and final installment of the game? It's like complaining about the 2nd LOTR movie not wrapping up the entire saga, it's silly.

The series isn't over, hence the cliffhanger ending and the sequels.

[Vivi]

Leave the Gman as a mystery. I'd rather be curious than disappointed to find out the Gman is just a fuzzy little teddy bear inside of a human skinsuit.

[FireFly]

Cerberus_e said:
you asked some good questions, but these are awfully detailled (while I'm at it: they come from mars and were very technological advanced, more than we are, they couldn't defeat hell with the soulcube because you need to kill 5 demons before you automatically have a 6th one (5 buy = one for free), and the difference with their body is that they are only legs, arms and head http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif) it is hell and not hell-like though, check your doom 1 manual http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



Yeah, but you can use conventional weapons against Hell's demons. Look at what one marine did! Also, I don't remember the manual stating that Hell is the place people go when they die.



I won't answer all your questions, I have an answer to some, but others are also unanswered for me.
but does it really matter what the society of the martian guys was, when that's not THAT important to the story.
but all your big questions are answered, unlike in HL.


Well, to me the Martian civilisation is just some mysterious super-advanced race. That's all I know about them so the desire to know more is very strong. I think it's a pretty big question if they are our ancestors.

The Hell-like force remains unexplained, and I think that's a very big mystery. Why are people hearing voices if they've never gone to Hell and they're nowhere near the portals?



in HL, they leave out big questions, and that's my point.
they don't need to tell me who the husband of the woman at trainstation was. they need to tell me who breen works for, and what their intentions are.
if HL3 also leaves such big questions open, then that's something else than "why does flesh grow?" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


I agree to an extent but Laidlaw leaves both significant and insignificant questions unanswered, so you can't say that his policy is wrong unless you see the questions yourself. It doesn't matter so much if there are lots of questions at the end of HL3 as long as the main ones have been wrapped up.

There's no indication that Breen works for anyone other than the Combine - he's simply the human representative.

[maximan]

I hope they fix some of the problems with HL2, including, but not limited to:

-Laughably Inconsistent A.I.
-Terrible Shadowing Effects
-Ultra-Linear
-A little TOO scripted

Otherwise, this looks pretty cool http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[laffer]

One major difference is that Doom 3 deals with the supernatural, and that cannot be explained.

[Cerberus_e]

maximan said:
-Ultra-Linear
-A little TOO scripted




those are good points IMO.
scripted sequences is what makes me love medal of honor: allied assault.
that game is even more linear than HL2 and I love it.
I don't see what is so bad about linearity? I'm always tempted to see everything, so multiple paths are always frustrating for me, since I need to backtrack to see them both.

and firefly, I mean I want every big question answered.
so they better not make such questions at the end of HL3.
I don't care if you go to doom 3's hell if you die in that game, that's not a big question, you also don't wonder where gordon goes when dying in HL? I want to know who the stalkers are http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cerberus_e]

laffer said:
One major difference is that Doom 3 deals with the supernatural, and that cannot be explained.



not really supernatural, just.... hell, like the bible describes it.
if firefly wants to know more about hell, he should read the bible http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Twin]

can't wait!

i love the half-life series...this'll just be fricken brilliant! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[FireFly]

But it doesn't say that it's the same Hell from the Bible! Why doesn't god help out, eh? Lets leave it to God and if the Earth gets invaded he'll sort everything out.

Also I just want some sort of explanation as to the extent of the force, and what it can do. I liked the parts where the scientists were dissecting the creatures and giving their feedback, I just wanted more of that sort of thing.

I mean, would you be happy with the explanation that the G-Man was a supernatural force?

[maximan]

Cerberus_e said:

maximan said:
-Ultra-Linear
-A little TOO scripted




those are good points IMO.
scripted sequences is what makes me love medal of honor: allied assault.
that game is even more linear than HL2 and I love it.
I don't see what is so bad about linearity?


I enjoy linear games while they last, but linear/ultra scripted games have almost no replay value, because it's going to be exactly the same the second time through.

[Beelze]

I've replayed Half-Life 2 several times. The linearity doesn't bother me because the quality and the variety makes up for it.

[Cerberus_e]

what do you mean with scripted?
I was aiming at lots of scripted sequenced like explosions here and there, and stuff happening in the abckground, that makes games very immersive, like MOHAA

firefly:
god doesn't help us out because heaven doesn't exist in doom.
a place can be supernatural, or another dimension, like hell.
but you can't say that of a person.
what kind of force is it?

do you know what would be cool? if alyx and kleiner etc... talked with you about the GMAN is the game, it really bothered me that a guy is taunting me, but I can't ask alyx, kleiner, or breen about them.

[laffer]

God doesn't help out for the same reason he does not help out starving children, raped women, etc, etc..

[Beelze]

Cerberus_e said:
god doesn't help us out because heaven doesn't exist in doom.


Where did you learn that?


a place can be supernatural, or another dimension, like hell.
but you can't say that of a person.


Why not? For example, ghosts are supernatural.


do you know what would be cool? if alyx and kleiner etc... talked with you about the GMAN is the game, it really bothered me that a guy is taunting me, but I can't ask alyx, kleiner, or breen about them.


That would be very nice. Perhaps the Gman will even confront Gordon's allies (or maybe he already has.)

[laffer]

Everyone knows what hell is. Everyone knows who the devil is. Everyone knows what demons are.
No one knows what the Gman is. There is a difference.

[Beelze]

I don't know what Hell is like, who the devil is, what a demon is, or if anything of it really exists. I know how people usually imagine those things, just like I know what a lot of people imagine the Gman to be.

[laffer]

That doesn't make sense.
You know that the devil is a fallen angel and that he is the cause of all evil. You know that hell is where sinful people go when they die. Etc, etc..

[Beelze]

That's what a lot of people believe, yes. Hell could be a state of mind, a physical place, etc. It may or may not exist.

[FireFly]

laffer said:
Everyone knows what hell is. Everyone knows who the devil is. Everyone knows what demons are.
No one knows what the Gman is. There is a difference.


Actually we don't because we don't know how faithful the Hell in Doom is to the subject matter. If anything it makes it more ambiguous. Are we to expect Lucifer? Satan's other helpers? I mean who runs the show? In fact, where is the Devil in Doom 3?

[laffer]

It's quite clear that the hell in Doom 3 is the hell most people think of when they hear hell. It's made quite clear in that game, don't tell me you didn't get that? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[FireFly]

laffer said:
That doesn't make sense.
You know that the devil is a fallen angel and that he is the cause of all evil. You know that hell is where sinful people go when they die. Etc, etc..


And none of this is stated in Doom 3. According to Cerberus Heaven doesn't even exist. So how do you reconcile these things?

[laffer]

Simply because it's quite clear that the Doom 3 hell is the traditional hell that most people think of when they hear the word hell.
Also, I would believe most people know who the devil is and what role he plays in the scheme of things (he's the cause of all evil, God is the cause of all good stuff.. to put it simple). Most people know this already. You could use the bible for a manual if you really want to http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

If the Gman was Jesus, I wouldn't complain at all even though the devil wasn't described in the game.

Edit - I get the feeling you guys know exactly what I mean but are just being stubborn here http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Edit 2 - The Gman Jesus thing was just an example, of course the entire game would have to involve heaven and stuff like that if it was to make sense.. you know what I mean http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cerberus_e]

Beelze said:

Cerberus_e said:
god doesn't help us out because heaven doesn't exist in doom.


Where did you learn that?




well, it's not being used in the story.


Beelze said:

a place can be supernatural, or another dimension, like hell.
but you can't say that of a person.


Why not? For example, ghosts are supernatural.




pfff, ghosts are those souls from hell with a bedsheet on their head. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Beelze said:

do you know what would be cool? if alyx and kleiner etc... talked with you about the GMAN is the game, it really bothered me that a guy is taunting me, but I can't ask alyx, kleiner, or breen about them.


That would be very nice. Perhaps the Gman will even confront Gordon's allies (or maybe he already has.)



yeah, and they could clear everything up, too bad gordon can't talk, but it could go like this:

it's night at kleiner's lab, the atmosphere is very creepy, anything can happen anytime.
gordon, eli, alyx, judith and kleiner are there.
they are sitting on the ground, in the middle of the room:

alyx: what are you telling me, gordon? an old man that can manipulate time from time to time talks to you from time to time?
eli: wait... it's not that one with his suitcase? he has talked to me once, too, (insert some story that explains some events from the game here)
judith: who is that guy? I saw him talking to dr breen once, when I pretended to work there when you guys thought I was a traitor. I would recognize him anyday.
*kleiner shows a picture of him*
kleiner: it's not him NO?
judith and eli: yeah that's him (and the player thinks that too of course)
kleiner: OH GOD NO! he's very dangerous, please tell me you guys are joking....

now the atmosphere comes very tense and you really feel anything can happen.

kleiner proceeds telling who the gman is, and why he is so dangerous, he clears up the whole mystery, and why he probably manipulated gordon and eli.
you feel like anything can happen, but it doesn't.

...until judith screams: LOOK AT THE WINDOW!
then everyone looks at the window (about 2 meters above the ground), and you see the gman's face sticking out at the bottom, with a REALLY angry face, his eyes glowing with a subtle red color.
then after a few seconds, the face disappears.
very scary now. then the power goes out and it's dark.
typical cliché:
kleiner: gordon, can you go to the basement and turn the power back on???

very cliched, but it would be very scary....

you see, the whole mystery is explained, on a very satisfying way! isn't that much better than nothing happening, and it remaining a mystery?

[FireFly]

But that doesn't mean it's the same Hell you see in the Bible. Hell as a concept can survive whether or not it has fallen angels, or as Cerberus indicates Heaven, or even God. We don't know to what extent these things are present or what role Hell plays (i.e whether every person goes to Hell upon death, or if some people go, or if it only happens under certain conditions).

I see the Hell in Doom 3 as a reimagining of the old Hell within a new scientific world, in which God in the conventional sense doesn't exist. So it's not obeying by the conventions of the Bible, it's creating something new.

[Cerberus_e]

laffer said:
If the Gman was Jesus, I wouldn't complain at all even though the devil wasn't described in the game.



haha! gman = jasus, now that would be awesome.
and yes, if it is just being said in-game that he's jesus, I wouldn't question who he is, because you already know by definition who he is, just like hell

[laffer]

Ok then.. let's look at it this way. How could the character in Doom 3 learn about hell? There is no way.

How could Gordon learn about the world he was put in? He could ask people!

How could Gordon learn about the Gman? He could ask that guy who gives you the bazooka!

[Cerberus_e]

he could ask betruger:

betruger: you see these people, all dead mate! and you will join them http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/devilish.gif
doom marine: tell me about hell and your boss
betruger: ok here goes: .......

[Damien_Azreal]

Why does every HL2 thread end up talking about Doom 3 sooner or later?

Back on topic... I love that teaser. Looks way darker than HL2, like the whole expansion with have the feel of Ravenholm. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif I thought the way Alyx was huddled up on the train was very cool.

And with the way the g-man sounded at the end... shivers. He sounds pissed. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I bet it has something to do with Gordon trying to break free, or Alyx, Eli, Barney and Kliener trying to get him away from the g-man.

See everyone seems to think that Gordon will break free on his own. But what we've seen so far in the Half-Life series just shows that Gordon is a tool. He does what people tell him to, so if you control the tool... you can control almost anything.

If Eli and Dr. Kleiner try to take Gordon away from the g-man, I bet that would really piss him off.

I don't know, just thinking out load. I would like to see Gordon break free of everything. The g-man, Eli and Alyx and their friends. Everything. Like he get's tired of being manipulated.

[Jokke_r]

IMO Hell in Doom3 is not "Hell" it's just another dimension which is close to what people would think "Hell" would be like, but it isn't "Hell". Just like in the movie Event Horizon.

I don't believe in God or any of that shit so thats why i don't want to believe that the Hell in doom3 is the supernatural place where satan lives and dumb shit like that.

[laffer]

Well, that lost scientist says something like : "The Devil.. is real!".

[Jokke_r]

He's crazy! Duh.

I believe it was just a metaphore.

[Nacho]

Jokke_r said:
IMO Hell in Doom3 is not "Hell" it's just another dimension which is close to what people would think "Hell" would be like, but it isn't "Hell". Just like in the movie Event Horizon.




You got it.

[laffer]

Still, it's awfully fire and brimstone stuff which is most the most stereotypical image of the biblical hell.

[Nacho]

That's why they call it Hell. If hell exsisted that's what it would look like so the only way to describe the place the portal leads to is Hell.

[avatar_58]

Jokke_r said:
IMO Hell in Doom3 is not "Hell" it's just another dimension which is close to what people would think "Hell" would be like, but it isn't "Hell". Just like in the movie Event Horizon.

I don't believe in God or any of that shit so thats why i don't want to believe that the Hell in doom3 is the supernatural place where satan lives and dumb shit like that.



Thats the way I saw it in all doom games. You made it to another dimension which resembles hell (with the demonic creatures etc) and you just label it as such since it scares the shite out of you...

[Mountain Man]

Damien_Azreal said:
See everyone seems to think that Gordon will break free on his own. But what we've seen so far in the Half-Life series just shows that Gordon is a tool. He does what people tell him to, so if you control the tool... you can control almost anything.


Now it's time to blow your mind:

And just who is Gordon Freeman? He's the person sitting at the keyboard playing the game. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

On one level, Half-Life and especially Half-Life 2 is an allegory about the relationship between the game designer (the Gman) and the player (Gordon Freeman).

[Damien_Azreal]

Yep.

Add in some freedom to the gameplay, give the player some free roaming. Missions that could have multiple outcomes based on how the players acts. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Give Gordon the chance to break away from everything, to stop being other peoples tool... and make his own way. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Michelangelo]

Damien_Azreal said:
Yep.

Add in some freedom to the gameplay, give the player some free roaming. Missions that could have multiple outcomes based on how the players acts. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Give Gordon the chance to break away from everything, to stop being other peoples tool... and make his own way. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



[u]GOD I am looking forward to this</u>

[FireFly]

laffer said:
Ok then.. let's look at it this way. How could the character in Doom 3 learn about hell? There is no way.

How could Gordon learn about the world he was put in? He could ask people!

How could Gordon learn about the Gman? He could ask that guy who gives you the bazooka!


The character in Doom 3 could very easily learn about Hell through the glyph translations.

That would require only the slightest change to the game, an extra PDA perhaps. For Gordon to ask the G-Man, Gordon would have to become a character, which would change everything.

[Cerberus_e]

Damien_Azreal said:
Why does every HL2 thread end up talking about Doom 3 sooner or later?




http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
we are talking about why the story needs to end in HL3 & its expansions.


Mountain Man said:
And just who is Gordon Freeman? He's the person sitting at the keyboard playing the game. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



that can be said about any game.

[Mountain Man]

Cerberus_e said:
that can be said about any game.


Yes and no. Some (most?) games force a specific character onto the player (Duke Nukem 3D, Far Cry, No One Lives Forever, Max Payne 1 & 2) while others leave the central character a blank to be filled by the player (Half-Life 1 & 2, Doom 3, can't really think of any others). It's my opinion that the Half-Life series takes this concept even further with the character of the Gman visibly representing the player's ultimate lack of free will in a pre-designed game environment.

The upshot of all this: Even if a future Half-Life game gives the player more freedom, the "Gman" will still be in total control. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Cerberus_e]

I don't think gordon's personality can be filled in by the player.
when I think of gordon freeman, I think of someone that is afraid of people, and suppose he could talk, that he wouldn't dare to say his opinion.

it's not his lack of speech that makes me think that, I don't know what it is.
I don't see the doom marine as the same personality... maybe that's because he is modelled, looks grim, and has a voice?
gordon doesn't even have a model, but his face is on the cover of the HL & europe HL2 package anyway.
I also can't think of other examples right now.

[Drazula]

If you view the HL2 story as a comedy, like "Plan 9 from Outer Space", you'll enjoy it more. I found it very comical.

[Orochi Avlis]

Drazula said:
If you view the HL2 story as a comedy, like "Plan 9 from Outer Space", you'll enjoy it more. I found it very comical.


Most emotion found in a game and he finds it comical. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[FireFly]

Comedy and emotion. Valve really are masters.

[Drazula]

C'mon. You have no sense of humor.

You are Gordon Freeman. You are about to take on an enemy that has wreaked havok on the entire planet. You have your state of the art enviro-suit. Plans have been carefully made. You are ready.

And Barney gives you a crowbar...

If that's not comedy, then what is... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cerberus_e]

nostalgia

[avatar_58]

Drazula said:
C'mon. You have no sense of humor.

You are Gordon Freeman. You are about to take on an enemy that has wreaked havok on the entire planet. You have your state of the art enviro-suit. Plans have been carefully made. You are ready.

And Barney gives you a crowbar...

If that's not comedy, then what is... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



He could have at least given you his combine pistol or stunstick. Cheap bastard....

[Orochi Avlis]

avatar_58 said:

Drazula said:
C'mon. You have no sense of humor.

You are Gordon Freeman. You are about to take on an enemy that has wreaked havok on the entire planet. You have your state of the art enviro-suit. Plans have been carefully made. You are ready.

And Barney gives you a crowbar...

If that's not comedy, then what is... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



He could have at least given you his combine pistol or stunstick. Cheap bastard....


But looked where he was stationed at.
They didn't need pistols. All they had where stunsticks. And if he did give him a stunstick, how would he explain that he lost the interrogation prisoner and his weapon without looking suspecious?

[laffer]

Firefly - no one knows about hell in Doom 3, there are no glyphs with info about hell. So he couldn't know.

In HL2, you see a guy speaking to the Gman and you can't even ask him. Kinda weird.

[FireFly]

I thought you were trying to say that the game couldn't be easily changed to accommodate the extra information.

But in any case the parallels are the same. You don't get to see all the translations in Doom 3, or get to know exactly what the scientists have discovered about Hell. Equally, the G-Man doesn't choose to talk to you in HL2. It's not like he actually walks up to you during the game and you can't do anything.

The only time you really have an opportunity to talk to him is at the end of the game, and guess what he says:

"I do apologise for what must seem to you an arbitrary imposition, Dr. Freeman; I trust it will make sense in the course of...

...well, I'm really not at liberty to say."

[Cerberus_e]

he could still have ased the one with his laser guided rocket launcher

[Cerberus_e]

Beelze said:

Cerberus_e said:

Beelze said:
Then they'll do that in Half-Life 4. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



gabe disagrees with you, he said HL3 will be the last one.


Gabe disagrees with you; they'll keep making games for as long as they have more of the story that they want to tell. Still, I thought that it was clear that I was kidding.



I seem to remember gabe once said HL3 will be the last half-life (excluding expansions).

[Orochi Avlis]

Cerberus_e said:
he could still have ased the one with his laser guided rocket launcher


You mean Cubbage, right?

He never really had a chance to.

Right when he meet him, a gunship attacked.
Afterwards, he told you to go quickly to the lighthouse and that he would warm them of your arrival.

I bet you even if we did ask him, he would deny it or change the subject.
Remember he was talking to the G-man, and the G-man keeps Gordon in check.
Almost certain that they (when I mean they, I mean anybody who has talked to G-man) won't speak of him infront of Gordon.

[Cerberus_e]

he could put that guy under pressure, he has the laser guided rocket launcher after all http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[laffer]

Exactly. I would've done that, life is nightmare for Gordon due to the Gman and when he finally sees a chance to get to know who he is, he should grab it.
He could've killed everyone in that base easily too, so he is in the position to threaten the guy to get the info he wants. And everyone says that I am supposed to be Gordon, at least I should've had the choice http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Lasakon]

Well, It's not like you would know it was Cubbage unless you nocliped. You dirty hackers http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[Cerberus_e]

Lasakon said:
Well, It's not like you would know it was Cubbage unless you nocliped. You dirty hackers http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif.



from what I've heard, you can see him through binoculars

[FireFly]

What info? As if the G-Man is going to reveal his master plan to Cubbage, or anything of any significance at all.

[Cerberus_e]

FireFly said:
What info? As if the G-Man is going to reveal his master plan to Cubbage, or anything of any significance at all.



they could both tell their facts, hear what the gman said to each others, and that way know more info.

[dark_angel]

FireFly said:

I think it's ideal for the HL series. Gordon needs to be a device for the player to believe that he is the main character. As soon as Gordon becomes his own person then the illusion is shattered and the player loses control.

The illusion may be weak for you, depending on your perception towards the game but the fact is that as soon as they introduce a character there will be no illusion at all.



The fundamentals of storytelling should not change, regardless of the medium in which the story is told.

The author must deal with character, setting, and plot and so too must the game designer.

Canceling one of these 3 elements will make the story very weak wich leads to unsatisfying ending.

You should look at it like this my friend http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[FireFly]

But there is a setting, characters, and a plot in HL2.

Who says there have to be a certain number of characters, or a certain number of relationships of a certain type? I think calling HL2 a story is selling it short; it's art. And as such it attempts to manipulate the player, to make him a look at a world in a different way, to make him experience a different set of feelings (resulting from his direct involvement). So it bends rules, it changes conventions, and I think that's good. As long as the world remains compelling it shouldn't matter.

Of course you might say that the world is less compelling without a fully fleshed out Gordon, but that's just a personal perspective, and who is to say who has the right perspective http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

HL2 is offering a different kind of experience for those that are happy to give up a few things. Considering it's the only experience of its type, I think this is very valuable, and consequently I'm going to defend it, especially on internet forums!

[laffer]

People make it seem more than it really is. It's basically just another shooter with great physics and an original story. I would hardly call it revolutionary.

It's fun as hell, though http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Roger]

laffer said:
It's basically just another shooter with great physics and an original story.



It really is an awe-inspiring thing when a crate being hoisted by a crane gets stuck inside the base of the crane, isn't it?

[dark_angel]

It seems that you have a solid perspective in HL2 and you are willing to defend the game as long as there is sequels to be made for the game. I really respect that and I find it a very valuable opinion but in the future when some games come with a better story and adequate integration of the three elements I talked about earlier you will realise that my perspective was the right one http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Drazula]

FireFly said:
I think calling HL2 a story is selling it short; it's art.


I agree. It is not a story. It's like watching 10 minutes of Twilight Zone, 10 minutes of I Love Lucy and 10 minutes of Star Trek. Somewhere in there the gamer must find the commonality.


And as such it attempts to manipulate the player, to make him a look at a world in a different way, to make him experience a different set of feelings (resulting from his direct involvement). So it bends rules, it changes conventions, and I think that's good. As long as the world remains compelling it shouldn't matter.


But the world was not compelling. The world was narrow. That is why it tries to force you along. It's a "Running Man" game world, where you feel it is just an arena, that you are forced to run to the next battle.

[Jokke_r]

Yeah, thats why i didn't like doom3 that much http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[FireFly]

dark_angel said:
It seems that you have a solid perspective in HL2 and you are willing to defend the game as long as there is sequels to be made for the game. I really respect that and I find it a very valuable opinion but in the future when some games come with a better story and adequate integration of the three elements I talked about earlier you will realise that my perspective was the right one http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


I think what I'm denying is there is one right, set-in-stone, way of doing things. I don't want Duke in DNF to be like Gordon, I don't want him to be personality-less. In fact the opposite, I want 3DR to go as far as they can down the personality route and create a real, credible character (you may laugh at this expectation, but I feel that if Duke is seen to parody himself then the illusion of depth can be created).

And then we'll be able to see how well it works, and maybe, just maybe, being Duke won't be so hard after all, and we'll experience a new kind of immersion as Duke in the world, with a real physical presence through the body awareness system.

But even if this does happen it still won't be like playing HL2, I still won't get the same feeling of being me or being in my own emotional space. So we need a variety of techniques, and both ideologies need to be evolved. I don't think HL2 went far enough in showing the power of it's storytelling technique, so neither method has reached its conclusion.


Roger said:
It really is an awe-inspiring thing when a crate being hoisted by a crane gets stuck inside the base of the crane, isn't it?


Is it actually stuck inside, or is it merely lodged? I remember this discussion before and people were claiming it was simply lodged. In any case, no physics system is perfect, so the presence of a single flaw doesn't exactly tell a whole lot.


Drazula said:
I agree. It is not a story. It's like watching 10 minutes of Twilight Zone, 10 minutes of I Love Lucy and 10 minutes of Star Trek. Somewhere in there the gamer must find the commonality.


But there is a (literary) thread going through the events and storywise I think everything makes sense. I mean if you compress HL2's story into a few paragraphs then you'll end up with a sentence like "The facility is compromised and Gordon is forced to escape through an abandoned mining town full of head crab afflicted inhabitants".

If you read that then you wouldn't think "hang on a minute that doesn't make any sense". It's only when you play the level and realise the gameplay is so different that you think "this doesn't fit in". So the issue relates to player experience rather than the plot, and if there had been Combine in Ravenholm the level would have seemed a lot more natural.


But the world was not compelling. The world was narrow. That is why it tries to force you along. It's a "Running Man" game world, where you feel it is just an arena, that you are forced to run to the next battle.


We're moving on to a different issue here, but I would say that even if your perspective is limited that doesn't mean you can't appreciate what you see, or be compelled to see more. I wanted to explore, to run out, to find out what had happened post HL. The fact that I couldn't didn't make the world any less compelling, in fact the opposite - I wanted to find out as much as possible within my limited remit.

You make the decision over whether you care about the world enough to use your imagination, and if you don't then you lose interest in the world.

[avatar_58]

I'll put an end to this arguement: HL2, Doom 3, Far Cry and just about every shooter released in the past 2 years has had little to no story worth noting. The end.

[Drazula]

FireFly said:
But there is a (literary) thread going through the events and storywise I think everything makes sense.


But the story must be visible THE FIRST TIME through the game. I should not have to search for the story as a would a colored key card. A story should unfold naturally, revealing itself more and more as the player progresses through the game. To have to play through a game again, because points needed to make sense of the story, invisibly passed because they were irrelevant at the current point in the story is simply bad storytelling. If the player is suppose to move urgently through a scene, the story should not hide a significant detail in that area. A good storyteller gives tidbits of the story away at the proper moments. It does not have to be the information the audience expects, but information should be given during the moments the slower moments of the game. The pace of the unfolding of the story needs to be the opposite of the pace of the game.

HL2 did not do this. Most people playing through one time did not even believe there was a story. This is poor storytelling.

[Mountain Man]

Drazula said:
But the story must be visible THE FIRST TIME through the game.


Must it?


HL2 did not do this. Most people playing through one time did not even believe there was a story. This is poor storytelling.


Personally, I blame the player who has conditioned himself to accept a diet of shallow, mediocre stories spoonfed to him leaving himself unaccustomed to thoughtful and imaginative discovery.

[laffer]

Unless you're encouraged to replay the game with a new difficulty level, some new areas or stuff like that, he game should not require that you finish it two or three times to understand the story.

Subtle stories are fine with me, but HL2 is taking it to the extreme really.

[Steve]

laffer said:
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/halfli..._flashtop_watch (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/halflife2aftermath/media.html?gcst=hl2aftermath_ot_pc_080905.asx&tag=gs_hp_flashtop_watch)

Enjoy http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Oooh! That was good. MORE! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Drazula]

Mountain Man said:

Drazula said:
But the story must be visible THE FIRST TIME through the game.


Must it?


My mistake. Correction: GOOD stories must be visible the first time through.


Mountain Man said:

HL2 did not do this. Most people playing through one time did not even believe there was a story. This is poor storytelling.


Personally, I blame the player who has conditioned himself to accept a diet of shallow, mediocre stories spoonfed to him leaving himself unaccustomed to thoughtful and imaginative discovery.


http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif While we're at it, let's blame viewers for bad movies. In the movies, very little of the story is revealed during high speed chases. The same is true for games. If the game is rushing the player through an area, why would he stop to look at something (and remember it!) when it is meaningless at the time. That is an extremely poor balance of story pacing to game pacing.

The most comparable thing I can think of to the half-life story would be watching the Seinfeld episode that was done backwards, on mute.

There are right ways of being subtle and mysterious. Anyone who watches Lost knows this. Or even better would be the classic show, Twin Peeks (which I believe HL2 is attempting to emulate in its storytelling).

I don't have to watch reruns to figure out what is going on. I shouldn't have to go through HL2 multiple times to have the story revealed. HL2 does a poor job unfolding the story.

[avatar_58]

What part of the story are people saying you miss when you don't look around? I looked around and I didn't find squat to explain anything to me. All I know is that the Gman is controlling me, aliens have taken over earth, and you need to get the citadel and get rid of breen. Was there something I missed? I check the bulletin boards but none of it made sense to me without resorting to that "Hl2 timeline" website....

[Mountain Man]

Drazula said:
My mistake. Correction: GOOD stories must be visible the first time through.


Must they?


I don't have to watch reruns to figure out what is going on.


Depends on the story. For me, it took a few viewings of 2001: A Space Odyessy - one of my favorite movies - before I could wrap my head around the story. I love stories like that, ones that stretch you, that make you think rather than encourage you to passively and lazily ingest them.


I shouldn't have to go through HL2 multiple times to have the story revealed.


Of course, some of us were able to get it the first time. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I've said once and I'll say it again: Think! Don't just play!

[dark_angel]

FireFly, I have got your point.

But Drazula previously made a very important statement, here it is:


But the world was not compelling. The world was narrow. That is why it tries to force you along. It's a "Running Man" game world, where you feel it is just an arena, that you are forced to run to the next battle.




Valve's designers failed to acheive a compelling world because the story was vague.

we all know that the author and designers should work together to slip the story into the game but when you have a slow story ( if we could say that ) and when designers have an obligation to keep things moving because control is ceded to the player, a " narrowed, unsatisfying world would be created ".

[FireFly]

Drazula said:
HL2 did not do this. Most people playing through one time did not even believe there was a story. This is poor storytelling.


Look, what do you mean by story? I'm puzzled because HL2 has hours of plot 'exposition' with the main characters alone - is this not story? I mean we're told about the world, and what's happening to it, and what role we're going to play, we're given insights into individual character interactions.

And then various events occur and the plot changes accordingly and we're informed of the effects of those changes, and we ourselves are effected by those changes.

If this seems vague to you then check out this plot summary I did:

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=865593&page=0&vc=1

This misses of a number of plot points, but still, surely you can see there's context for what you're doing? Yes, there are a few things you have to be observant to catch - you have to actually talk to the Vortigaunts, but I don't think that's too much to ask. But even without these things HL2 still has a story, in that events happen to you, the main characters and the world, which evolve things. My other post on HL2's event driven plot:

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=866438&page=0&vc=1

I think what you did is you played HL2 over a number of weeks and then forgot what had happened.


Drazula said:
http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif While we're at it, let's blame viewers for bad movies. In the movies, very little of the story is revealed during high speed chases. The same is true for games. If the game is rushing the player through an area, why would he stop to look at something (and remember it!) when it is meaningless at the time. That is an extremely poor balance of story pacing to game pacing.



This is untrue. The things you had to look out for like, newspaper clippings, were only present in the combat-less expository segments. In fact, I believe you were actually told to look around.


dark_angel said:
Valve's designers failed to achieve a compelling world because the story was vague.

we all know that the author and designers should work together to slip the story into the game but when you have a slow story ( if we could say that ) and when designers have an obligation to keep things moving because control is ceded to the player, a " narrowed, unsatisfying world would be created ".


But HL1 had a slow story, a very slow one at that. You're talking about player motivation which depends on how well they've taken in the objectives, and whether they feel motivated by what they're doing.

I think that's a slightly seperate issue, because even if they don't know why they're pushing forward, they can still find the world around them compelling, and they can still want to advance the plot, and want to find more about the universe.

Also, when you say HL2 has a vague plot perhaps you mean that it didn't tell you enough about the world in general, which is fine, but you were told exactly what was happening event-wise.

[Cerberus_e]

what was happening event wise yes, but that's more the objectives than the story.
"go to black mesa east"
"go to that prison"

do you see the medal of honor as heavily storyline based because they constantly tell you:
"go pick up those explosives"
"now plant those on the bridge"
"run"

?

[FireFly]

Several points:

1.) The events you're talking about in MOH don't have any real future implications, they're only important until you've completed them, then you can forget about them. In HL2 events actually effect the plot, and change future scenarios.

2.) In fact what you're talking about are objectives. They end and begin with the player. I'm talking about non player created events, like when Black Mesa East is attacked, or Alyx and Eli are captured.

3.) The objectives in MOH only effect characters in a very limited way, so they can't be seen as part of a proper narrative.

4.) MOH's world is essentially static, things don't really evolve in-game - it's just a series of objectives. In HL2 unexpected things happen that completely change the plot, like when Mossman is discovered in Nova Prospekt.

[Cerberus_e]

don't get me wrong, I think HL2 has a plot.
but a very overrated one, you are talking like HL2 is the messiah that raises the bar for storylines to come in the next 20 years http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
the storyline isn't that big, not bigger than far cry, doom 3, but bigger than painkiller though http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[FireFly]

Only in gaming would we rate a story according to how 'big' it was. What HL2 did it did very well, that doesn't mean it's some epic piece of literature, nor did it try to be. Yes, Far Cry had more raw exposition - does that make it a more appealing story, does that make its characters more credible?

HL2 pushed its own boundaries, just like every good book does. I can read one book and think "yes, that was amazing" and read a completely different book done in a completely different style and think the same thing. I'm defending their approach, and the new ground they broke, I'm not saying every story should be as minimalistic as HL2's.

But I doubt it will take another 20 years for HL3 to come out http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Orochi Avlis]

Let's get back on topic.

[Drazula]

Mountain Man said:

I shouldn't have to go through HL2 multiple times to have the story revealed.


Of course, some of us were able to get it the first time. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I've said once and I'll say it again: Think! Don't just play!


http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif BS alert! The story was designed to be exposed by multiple runs through it.

>> Mark Laidlaw of Valve said: (http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=991957&postcount=794)
We're getting a bit of flak for sticking to that golden rule [of show, don't tell], which is certainly not the norm in games, but I know we did the right thing. Trying to push the narrative technique as much as we push the technology! Hopefully it's like a good record, though...doesn't quite make sense the first time you hear it, then you discover that you can't get it out of your head, then you just have to play it again, and you start to notice things you didn't catch the first time, and after awhile you accept it for what it is.

I accept that it is piss poor storytelling. Why did Valve design the story that way? I can tell you it wasn't intentional. It is an obvious sign that the storyteller is too close to the story. The author assumes you know what he knows. A classic writing flaw.

For those of you who watch "LOST", imagine all the little hints in the season finale (like the polar bear on the back of the comic book) being shown in the first episode instead. No one would have gotten them. No one would notice them. They would be meaningless. There would be no foundation to put those clues together. That is what HL2 did.

There is no justification for a poor narrative. That no one got the story the first time through is proof. Blaming the gamer is ludicrous.

And since MM is resorting to BS (didn't you once say it wasn't a story as much as a "backstory", Eggo?), I will bow out.

[Cerberus_e]

the only reason why MM (and me) got it on our first time through is because we read lots of previews from magazines etc... they told the whole story.

[FireFly]

The story isn't magically "revealed" on multiple play throughs, little details are just filled in, that's all. The context for what you're doing is still the same.

Oh, and it had to be intentional because the game used to give the player a presentation detailing everything that had happened since the original HL, but Valve decided not to include it and go for a more subtle approach.

Also closeness to the story is clearly not the issue here, because Valve work by continually playtesting the game, and collecting feedback on the game and story. Laidlaw knew exactly what he was doing. Finally, if Laidlaw assumes the audience knows what he knows, then why does he include these clues in the first place? It doesn't make any sense.


Cerberus_e said:
the only reason why MM (and me) got it on our first time through is because we read lots of previews from magazines etc... they told the whole story.


The previews told virtually no story.

[Cerberus_e]

FireFly said:

Cerberus_e said:
the only reason why MM (and me) got it on our first time through is because we read lots of previews from magazines etc... they told the whole story.


The previews told virtually no story.



http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
the whole HL2 story was there, except the ending of course.
you say: "virtually no story", and you could be right, because HL2 doesn't have THAT much story http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[FireFly]

Basically all we knew was that the game was set some years after HL in a world ruled by a force called the Combine (which we knew nothing about, and people were speculating whether they were human, alien or a mix between the two), presumably controlled by Breen (and in the game we found out this was only partly true).

[Mountain Man]

Drazula said:
BS alert! The story was designed to be exposed by multiple runs through it.


So? That doesn't mean some of the more observant players couldn't get it the first time. That's not to say that I haven't exposed additional layers of the story on subsequent play throughs, but I got enough of it the first time around to have a general understanding of what was going on.


I accept that it is piss poor storytelling.


You accept your own opinion? Gee, that's wonderful.


That no one got the story the first time through is proof.


So you've talked to everybody who has played the game and have been able to determine that this sweeping generalization of yours is true? Of course you haven't. Therefore, your absurd assertation is not proof of anything (except how ridiculous your arguments are).


And since MM is resorting to BS, I will bow out.


Since Drazula has betrayed a lack of confidence in his position by resorting to the ad hominem fallacy, it is good for him to "bow out". http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Mountain Man]

Cerberus_e said:
the only reason why MM (and me) got it on our first time through is because we read lots of previews from magazines etc... they told the whole story.


Incorrect. I avoided story spoilers like the plague. Everything I learned about Half-Life 2's narrative I learned while playing the game.

[SyntaxN]

I think the story of HL2 is as "good" and interesting as the story from HL1, but HL2 told it in a wrong way!
The whole HL story is a big mystery, and I think that it´s just so cool because I can always think the reason why things are happening for myself, nothing important got answered yet!
You hadn´t real mission objectives in big parts of HL1, it just was clear that you´ve to escape, in HL2 you´ve all those characters which are really build in the story.
They tell you to go there and, and, and, I think it was a big misstake because people realized that the whole "uber story" isn´t so good because they can see that nothing totaly cool is happening at all when you don´t start to think about it....

[December Man]

For the first time I actually agree with Drazula. Avatar_58 had the same feelings afterwards just like me.

Some alien(?) species have taken over the world(and it's called the Combine) and Breen is the bad guy. After reading that HL timeline everything is clear, but after finishing HL2 I thought - "Wait a sec. Where was the story?" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

And if MM and Cerberus got the story after the first time - well, good for you! Too bad you're the only ones on this thread that actually understood the story! Congrats!

Too bad that there was nothing worth understanding there.

[FireFly]

I understood it perfectly too. The Combine you're fighting against aren't actually aliens - they're modified humans, as you can see at Nova Prospekt. If you listen Breen refers to them as the trans-human arm of the Overwatch. So the Combine use modified host races to defend themselves, as is apparent with the Strider and Gunship.

Breen isn't really that much of a bad guy. He's the human representative who reports to the Combine and has given away certain freedoms in exchange for the survival of the human race.

[December Man]

Modified humans. Great. Where do they come from?

[FireFly]

The humans are obviously taken from the general population.

[December Man]

Who modified them? Why? For what purpose?

To rule the world?

LOL.

Nice story.

[Orochi Avlis]

What do you think Nova Prospket's function was?

Didn't you see the guy on the opertaing table there?

One of the citizen's tells us at the beginning that he was thinking about joining so he could get a decent meal.

The Combine are looking for diversity and becoming unified at the same time.

This way they can overcome more obstacules and but remain as one entity.

There's more to the story than "ruling the world".
Notice how the people complain about the sabotaged water, not being able to reproduce, lack of decent food, how Earth's resources are beinging harvested.

These questions will be answered more in depth in the next game. Maybe some in the expansion.

[December Man]

Communism, you say? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Cerberus_e]

most of HL's story consists out of mysteries.
I want answers, damnit http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[FireFly]

December Man said:
Who modified them? Why? For what purpose?

To rule the world?

LOL.

Nice story.


As I've said, the Combine modified them. If you'd notice, the Combine don't seem to do any of the fighting themselves, instead listing captured creatures into their ranks, modifying them to use as 'troops'.

What happened then is the Combine attacked Earth, using their existing 'race weapons', and then following the surrender of the Earth forces they began to convert humans into a new 'race weapon', the Combine Overwatch. This makes perfect sense, because humans are better adapted to their surroundings than anything the Combine has. So the humans act as a kind of police force, controlling and running things on Earth.

There seem to be two levels to this force, the Overwatch (or the transhuman arm at least), who provide the bulk of the fighting force, and Metrocops who merely try to maintain civil order. These Metrocops are comprised of volunteers from the community, and at the start of the game one of the NPCs mentions that he's considered joining them to get some free meals. Also, we see Barney pretend to be a Metrocop. This indicates that they haven't been modified extensively by the Combine and are merely 'suited up' for the job.

The Overwatch on the other hand seem to have been more heavily modified, and you can see an in-game diagram of a human head full of nuts and bolts to represent them. In any case, Breen refers to them as the next evolution, and says the Human race has now achieved immortality. The extent of these modifications is unknown, but presumably they allow the transhuman arm to be controlled by the Combine, and add to their combat effectiveness. The position of one of the control units (in the neck) suggests that there's some sort of voice control going on as well (you can see modified Humans in the Nova Prospekt level).

Now, what do the Combine want, you ask? Well yes, to take over the world. Their exact motivations are less clear, but they're consuming towns and cities, and sucking up resources (you can see a dried seabed in the game). I think it's likely that they simply want control of Earth and its resources, and want to expand their ranks with a new soldier (the human).

[December Man]

Well. This story sucks. The details are good, though.

But the story is this:

An alien race(the Combine), which's ravaging across the universe, came across Earth. It's using humans to control humans and it's sucking up all of the resources of the planet in order to build their army even more. It chooses a representative of the race(Breen) to make him control Earth(or they just brainwashed him) - this makes easier to control all of their planets.

So the GMan is an agent, a representative of the Xen race.

[Nessus]

I think this is going to be better than HL2. They should be really experienced at making the game by now, I expect some great things.

[Orochi Avlis]

Nessus said:
I think this is going to be better than HL2. They should be really experienced at making the game by now, I expect some great things.


Laidlaw said in a previous PCG that they have gotten real good with their tools, so here's hoping.


So the GMan is an agent, a representative of the Xen race.


We don't know that.

[avatar_58]

My biggest issue was that I was never actually "told" who the combine were. I never knew even after I finished the game that they were modified humans. I had to learn that online. MM, where did you see this in game? I'd like to be enlightened...

Also I was never told that the combine were involved in the Xen world. When was I supposed to know that? Also (and this stretches back to HL1) how was I supposed to know the nihilanth (the final boss in hl1) was actually controlling the vortigaunts? I always assumed he was the leader and they were brainless aliens killing all that they saw. If HL2 wanted me to understand why the Vortigaunts like you all the sudden they should have spoken up. Granted...the vortigaunts occasionly say things about HL1 however they kept repeating some things to me so I never kept hitting "use" on any of them.....so I think having to talk to them manually was a bad design decsision...at least they could have designed something better than hitting use again and again to talk.

[Orochi Avlis]

The thing is with HL 2's method of story telling is that it isn't handed to you.
Other games tell their story, usually, through a third person cut scene. The characters talk about their present situation and give you the info on and about the plot. And at times you see both sides of the story. A prime example would be NOLF.

You see Cate talk to Bruno and the imposter spy about what's going on and what she found out so far.
Then once in a while, you see the bad guys do their evil plotting.
Here it's given to you (the story) on a silver platter.

With HL 2, you living the story from Gordon's eyes, his side of the story. Meaning, you only learn about what's going on from people that you encounter. Their info is very limited, or choose to limit the info.

Nova Prospekt would be a good example of this. The population (or some of it) know it's a bad place that they would want to avoid, but they don't know exactly what's going on. Details are sketchy at best.

When the Xen aliens invaded, nobody knew what was going on because the Black Mesa inicident kept under wraps.
They just knew that their world was being invaded by strange creatures.

Doom 3 uses a similiar type of story telling, but makes use of third person cut-scenes to help give more info to the player. The player has a omni-presence to the whole game world.

[avatar_58]

I agree with that, however I just don't see where I am supposed to be looking to gleam all the info from those summaries. I must have missed a fair amount however I can't begin to understand "what I did wrong".

I play lots of games where the story isn't handed to you, mostly rpgs and adventure games, and they don't come off as empty as Hl2's story was. I'm not saying HL2 has a bad story....they just don't tell enough of it or direct you in the right places to look.

[Ajaxx]

I don't think the story was lacking that much. There was enough there for me to have a general understanding of what was going on as I went along.
And the fact that you're rushing around and only getting vague pieces here and there......well.....pardon me, but I thought that was SUPPOSED to be the idea!

It's all about perspective....

YOU'RE GORDON FREEMAN. And as Gordon Freeman, you know nothing about what happened after the end of the first Half-Life, nor do you know about the world you're in now.

You're NOT SUPPOSED to know.....because Gordon doesn't know.

At no point in the game does the player STOP being Gordon Freeman. You know what he knows. And he doesn't know a whole lot.

You wake up on a train in a strange city run by alien overlords and you have no idea what's going on. You're confused.......and that's how it's supposed to be. That's what the INITIAL experience with the game was meant to be.

And OF COURSE you'll understand things better on the second run through with the game....that's inevitable and true of any game.....or any MEDIUM of story telling.....with any sembelence of plot progression. There are GOING to be plot points that you will notice being hinted at in review that were not noticed the first time through. There's a name for that, folks....it's called HINDSIGHT!



Now could we get back on topic here?? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif


Anybody notice in the Aftermath trailer that nobody addresses Gordon directly or even by name? What if you don't play Gordon in this one? After seeing how HL2 ended, it's a pretty safe bet that Gordon already played his role in this particular setting. What if a different "agent" is now being utilized.

I'm holding out hope that it's Adrian Shephard. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Orochi Avlis]

Ajaxx said:
Anybody notice in the Aftermath trailer that nobody addresses Gordon directly or even by name? What if you don't play Gordon in this one? After seeing how HL2 ended, it's a pretty safe bet that Gordon already played his role in this particular setting. What if a different "agent" is now being utilized.

I'm holding out hope that it's Adrian Shephard. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif


That's an interesting point.

But there's a few flaws in your theory.
1) Valve has said that we would be playing as Gordon
2) Dog, when he pushes away the boulders, recognizes who he unearthed. Seeing how they haven't met Adrian, Dog wouldn't be able to recognize him.
3)Alyx says she found "him". Again, I doubt she would be looking for Adrian.

EDIT: After seeing the trailer a few more times, I can see your point. Nothing is directly said to the player that he is Gordon.

Maybe Dog is just surprised to see a survivor. And Alyx, when she says she found him, could be refering to Dog.

[avatar_58]

Maybe you are barney. Blue Shift 2.

[FireFly]

avatar_58 said:
My biggest issue was that I was never actually "told" who the combine were. I never knew even after I finished the game that they were modified humans. I had to learn that online. MM, where did you see this in game? I'd like to be enlightened...


Well the first hint you get is when Breen says the human race has achieved immortality. Then you get to discover this (http://members.shaw.ca/halflifestory/evidence/combine_evolution.jpg) diagram. Breen also refers to the Combine as the next evolution of humanity.

At Nova Prospekt you actually get to see these modified humans, and Breen refers to them as the trans-human arm of the Overwatch which should make it pretty obvious. Also, think about it - Combine - What does that mean to you? Breen tells us not to refer to them as the Combine so it clearly evokes something he doesn't like. Look at the Striders and Gunships - organic beings combined with Combine technology to form weapons.


Also I was never told that the combine were involved in the Xen world.


This is you have to infer, but at the start of the game you see a Vort wearing the familiar wrist bands that the enslaved Vorts in HL wore, doing work for the Combine. The Vort also tells you that:

"That sharp spur of hope has not dulled to this day."

"For once, the lesser master lay defeated; the greater must also fall in time."

And then there's the fact that the Nihilanth was wearing the same slave bands. He also mentions being "their slaves" in some of his dialogue. And what about those other Xen beings - remember the Xen grunts being transported in caskets?


When was I supposed to know that? Also (and this stretches back to HL1) how was I supposed to know the nihilanth (the final boss in hl1) was actually controlling the vortigaunts?


Well it's made clear they're slaves being controlled by a higher being, and you encounter Vorts without orders who don't initially attack you, so you couldn't have believed they were brainless.


Granted...the vortigaunts occasionly say things about HL1 however they kept repeating some things to me so I never kept hitting "use" on any of them.....so I think having to talk to them manually was a bad design decsision...at least they could have designed something better than hitting use again and again to talk.


It's helpful if you talk to the Vort who repairs your Airboat. The important things he says are first, so you don't need to hit "use" too many times. Here's some of their dialogue:

"You have brought us grief and jubilation beyond measure."

"We are there still, in observance of your final stroke."

"While our own lay scattered at your feet, you severed the vortal cord that bound the Nihilanth to life, and to us."

"With you beside us, a talisman of victory, the day of freedom draws nigh."

"We shall take our stand beside you, here, upon this miserable rock."

"Let this war end in either total victory or in our extinction. No further compromise shall we allow."

[scorpion]

Orochi Avlis said:

Ajaxx said:
Anybody notice in the Aftermath trailer that nobody addresses Gordon directly or even by name? What if you don't play Gordon in this one? After seeing how HL2 ended, it's a pretty safe bet that Gordon already played his role in this particular setting. What if a different "agent" is now being utilized.

I'm holding out hope that it's Adrian Shephard. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif


EDIT: After seeing the trailer a few more times, I can see your point. Nothing is directly said to the player that he is Gordon.

Maybe Dog is just surprised to see a survivor. And Alyx, when she says she found him, could be refering to Dog.


Who knows, it could be possible that it is adrian. When i think about it maybe that is why G-man is pissed, perhaps Adrian escaped from his prison that the G-man left him in. Maybe somehow the explosion at the end of HL2 opened some kind of gateway to Adrian. Although i get the feeling it's not Adrian it would be really cool since i liked him more http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[kylemf88]

I don't care what you guys say. I think half life 2 has one of the best game stories ever. Just because a game story spells out everything for you doesn't make it better. Look at far cry its horrible. (good game though don't get me wrong) Doom 3's story didn't make much sence really. (I don't like its story thought but again good game don't get me wrong)

[Sir Lemonhead]

FireFly said:
Also, think about it - Combine - What does that mean to you?



This? (http://www.osbckansas.org/Images/larger/combine.jpg)

They're obviously intergalactic farmers. ANYONE who's played the game at least 6 times knows that http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[FireFly]

No, Combine, not Combine Harvester. Otherwise they'd be called the Harvesters.

You might think this is non obvious, but before the game was even released I guessed the Combine were a combination of man and machine.

[Sir Lemonhead]

Damn, you're too clever for me! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

So...you mean they didn't come to earth to sell their fresh farm produce and homemade jam? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[FireFly]

The jam is only a side project.

[Mountain Man]

FireFly said:
Then you get to discover this (http://members.shaw.ca/halflifestory/evidence/combine_evolution.jpg) diagram.


I love this image. It's a brilliant little piece of visual storytelling. In a single graffiti image, you learn exactly what the Combine are up to and why.

Everything you need to understand the story is there. You just have to pay attention and put the pieces together.

[Beelze]

How I wish it was Adrian or someone else we got to play as. Gordon should only be the protagonist in "full" titles, dammit!

[FireFly]

But think about it: More HL2 story. And more G-Man.

That's too tempting.

[Cerberus_e]

indeed, we definitely need more HL2 story http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Nessus]

I think they're going to chince out on the story once again, I learned my lesson last time, I'm not expecting much story wise.

[Beelze]

Wouldn't it be nice if Gordon found Adrian and had him join him in his battle against the Gman (if that's what we'll end up doing)? He could make a nice supporting character.

[Cerberus_e]

gabe said they are interested in bringing shepherd back.

[Beelze]

I hope they kill off Alyx and replace her with him, then.

[FireFly]

Cerberus_e said:
gabe said they are interested in bringing shepherd back.


When did he say this? Laidlaw indicated the opposite, that they were going forget about happened in Opposing Force.

[Cerberus_e]

FireFly said:

Cerberus_e said:
gabe said they are interested in bringing shepherd back.


When did he say this? Laidlaw indicated the opposite, that they were going forget about happened in Opposing Force.



I think he said that in an interview I posted here but people flamed then "that it didn't contain info" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[FireFly]

You mean this one?

http://www.halfrules.net/entrevista?id=18&l=ing

All he said was "we get these requests as well".

[Cerberus_e]

oh, I see http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[FireFly]

Yes, it's my job to crush your silly expectations.

[Cerberus_e]

I take offence to that

[FireFly]

None was meant.

[Cerberus_e]

but how do you think shephard feels now http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Orochi Avlis]

- We know there's going to be expansion packs, will any of them continue the original story or will they be parallel stories (like in previous expansions)? Anything planned already?

We aren't saying anything about this.


Aftermath might be a What-If tale.

[Cerberus_e]

I would dislike that

[Orochi Avlis]

I wouldn't.
They would really go nuts and nothing, story-wise, would hold them back.

[kylemf88]

I don't think it will be. Marvel might be able to make a stupid comic and change their mind then call it what if. But vavle maid it pretty clear I guess that this is going on with the story.

[avatar_58]

I think any which way this expansion is looking good and will probably be very fun. I just hope they have a deal with EA to release it retail.

[Cerberus_e]

and that it will be released about at the same time as the steam version, or else I have to avoid this HL2 forum for spoilers.

I think they will release it at the same time, they also did that with vivendi on november 16th, and after all they did they can't afford to piss off their fan base even more http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ajaxx]

I dunno. It still seems pretty clear to me that this one may not have anything directly to do with Gordon. Reading too much into it?.....probably......but you'd think in that trailer, they'd have at least one snippet or reference being made directly to or about Gordon in what's supposed to be about the "Aftermath" of his actions in HL2.

I know it's not likely that they're gonna use Adrian Shephard for this one. I just think it would be cool if they did. He's just as much an anonymous vessel as Gordon is....yet at the same time he has his own story and ties to the Half-Life story continuity as well. Why did the G-Man lock him away at the end of OpFor? What did he plan to do with him? They could answer these questions here.

I don't agree with those who say there's no difference between Gordon and Adrian from the player's perspective. They both had very different perspectives which influenced the player's feelings towards the game IMHO.


With Gordon, it's like you're kind of a perpetual bumbler. out of place with no particular direction. a catalyst of sorts. Going around, triggering events, causing chaos with only vague understandings of the world around you and your effect on it. Dr. Breen even points out that all Gordon ever does is destroy and he doesn't even know why he does it. There's always a big question mark over the things Gordon is called upon to do. That's how I feel when I play as Gordon Freeman.



Adrian, on the other hand, is a straightforward soldier. Always following a clear objective at one point or another. Whether it's to find and kill Freeman or otherwise. You have very little need to understand the specifics of what is going on around you to do what you're supposed to do. You just do what you are told and follow orders. The need to question or know why you have to do these things is not there. It's never raised in game context.
That's how I feel when I play as Adrian Shephard.

It's a unique perspective in the context of this story and one I was hoping would be revisited or expanded upon in HL2:Aftermath


[Vortigaunt voice]:
" 'The Freeman' has been and set our liberation in motion. Now, 'The Shephard' must lead us out of darkness and into safety from the wolves that are no longer at bay."

Would've been pretty cool, don't you think? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[FireFly]

From my perspective though, I see the HL series as a monotrack journey. They're Gordon's story - his path, his destiny. The changes in the world occur because of Gordon, he's the only real catalyst, the centre around which everything revolves.

To re-introduce Shepherd as a second 'chosen one' would diminish all that. It would remove all of Gordon's uniqueness, because there'd be someone just as good as him. This is the central issue in the HL universe; how can this entity called Gordon be so powerful?

I think any expansion packs from a different perspective should be separate stories, and Shephard shouldn't be the one to complete Gordon's work.

[kylemf88]

Also didn't vavle not make him? So if you think about it he's not part of the real hl story. But expansion dude. Also if they didn't make him and they are making this one it wont be him. Didn't i hear something about having some romantic stuff with gordan and alyx? So it has to be gordon... right?

[avatar_58]

Thats the thing I'm curious about...when people buy the old HL games over steam does Gearbox get the cash for Opposing Force? They did make it after all...

[Sir Lemonhead]

kylemf88 said:
Also didn't vavle not make him? So if you think about it he's not part of the real hl story. But expansion dude. Also if they didn't make him and they are making this one it wont be him. Didn't i hear something about having some romantic stuff with gordan and alyx? So it has to be gordon... right?



But they did approve the Opposing Force storyline surely?

I hope they don't ignore it..I'd rather play as Adrien than that wussy looking bespectacled nerd Gordon http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Damien_Azreal]

kylemf88 said:
Also didn't vavle not make him? So if you think about it he's not part of the real hl story. But expansion dude. Also if they didn't make him and they are making this one it wont be him. Didn't i hear something about having some romantic stuff with gordan and alyx? So it has to be gordon... right?



Oh dear god don't make romantic stuff between Gordan and Alyx. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif

[Mountain Man]

avatar_58 said:
Thats the thing I'm curious about...when people buy the old HL games over steam does Gearbox get the cash for Opposing Force? They did make it after all...


It depends on what their contract says.

[Beelze]

Shephard could be falsely believed to be another "chosen one," or he could only be presented as someone who will help Gordon with one special thing. He could have a small supportive role. Either way, I don't think they should try squeezing more out of Eli, Alyx, etc. Some new character (or the return of an old one that didn't show up in Half-Life 2) should be there, even if it's just an expansion.

[Cerberus_e]

I want that white haired scientist back, I always thought his voice was funny, and looked like einstein http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[EyeZ]

This could be nothing and a little off topic and also this may have already been discussed but....


remember in half life 1, if you killed a scientist or you died, it come up with mission terminated or mission failed and it'd go black. you have to go back to your last save or whatever..


Well what mission are you on? who set that mission, are we to say that G-man had set all that up?

Do we get that in HL2 Also?



As to aftermath i thought that they confirmed you play gordon? why all the speculation of barney or adrian?


where is that diagram of monkey/man/combine to? I never saw it?

[Cerberus_e]

in HL2 you can't kill NPC's, and instead of pushing them around, they push you around.

you will get mission failed when your buggy falls in the sea, though http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Beelze]

Cerberus_e said:
instead of pushing [NPCs] around, they push you around.


Only during scripted sequences, and definitely not during the squad combat segments... but why did you bring this up, anyway?

[Duoae]

You can also get "trapped" because they don't move out of the way - like when trying to take out those floor gattling cannons in the library/museum....

[Mountain Man]

Given that the expository scripted sequences required precise timing of character movement, gently moving the player out of the NPC's path seems like a reasonable solution.

[Cerberus_e]

Beelze said:

Cerberus_e said:
instead of pushing [NPCs] around, they push you around.


Only during scripted sequences, and definitely not during the squad combat segments... but why did you bring this up, anyway?



eyez asked for it.

[EyeZ]

not really i was looking for the significance of it?

i noticed you couldn't kill NPC's, i didn't notice they push you around...??

[Cerberus_e]

try to block their way in a scripted sequence

[SyntaxN]

try to block their way in a scripted sequence


lol, I still remember the video where they showed that every NPC reacts dynamically on your behavior http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif (Kleiner´s Lab)

[Mountain Man]

It's pretty well known that the original E3 videos were proof of concept. Obviously, some things changed from the initial conception to the final product.

[laffer]

Alyx gently pushed me off a height once.

So they did not do this in the E3 videos? Of course it was work in process, but still they're also there to make an impression.

[BioHazard]

Drazula said:
I may pass, on the expansion... There doesn't seem like there is anything new.



Same here. I thought HL 2 was great but from watching the aftermath trailer it seems like they've added almost nothing content-wise in this expansion, except some new levels.

[Orochi Avlis]

Remember this is a teaser trailer and they aren't going to show the best parts of the game right away.

[avatar_58]

Permadeath said:
Same here. I thought HL 2 was great but from watching the aftermath trailer it seems like they've added almost nothing content-wise in this expansion, except some new levels.



You were expecting....? Thats the style with valve. Although I would have loved a sequel to Opposing Force. A desert eagle in HL2 would nice, along with a barnacle! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[FireFly]

Permadeath said:
Same here. I thought HL 2 was great but from watching the aftermath trailer it seems like they've added almost nothing content-wise in this expansion, except some new levels.


You can't tell that from a teaser trailer. All we saw Gordon holding was a Gravity Gun. One new enemy was shown, and one old one.

[0marTheZealot]

I'd get it solely to see what happens in the story.

[laffer]

Me too - no matter what game it is, I just CAN'T STAND to leave things unfinished http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[EyeZ]

So yea, can anyone answer my questions from page 5?