Meqon was bought by AGEIA??!!! [Archive]

SyntaxN

09-01-2005, 04:25 PM

I was so damn shocked when I read that... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
I really don´t like the idea, but George said that they won´t give people with PPU´s a better "physical" experience so I hope he hasn´t changed his opinion^^
All this is another big company buys small company action, I hate such things http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
I don´t have the feeling that Meqon really wanted or planed that, they made big plans for the feature (see the website) and suddenly they got bought. (btw, the name AGEIA sounds pretty gay imo)

Nixlax

09-01-2005, 04:30 PM

SyntaxN said:
I was so damn shocked when I read that... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
I really don´t like the idea, but George said that they won´t give people with PPU´s a better "physical" experience so I hope he hasn´t changed his opinion^^
All this is another big company buys small company action, I hate such things http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
I don´t have the feeling that Meqon really wanted or planed that, they made big plans for the feature (see the website) and suddenly they got bought. (btw, the name AGEIA sounds pretty gay imo)

I agree with that, i'am also a swede so i feel big sorrow for a swedish company to be bought. And if you look at this "MAP (http://www.meqon.com/future/roadmap.gif)" you will see that they actually did have big plans for there engine.

crunchy superman

09-01-2005, 04:38 PM

Cerberus_e said:
bad news if you ask me, means they aren't going to build physics in software mode anymore, but only in hardware mode

Well, not as soon as all that, but it will be eventually phased out into hardware only - it's inevitable, just as software rendering gave way to 3D accellerators.

FireFly

09-01-2005, 04:38 PM

I don't like it either. They were a classic, lightweight, independent studio, and they're part of some huge juggernaut.

Echo Black

09-01-2005, 04:55 PM

I'm hoping George or Joe can answer us this...It's not asking "will feature X be in DNF", it's just an unrelated decision. Will 3Dr's plan of action for DNF change because of this, or will it remain like it is? PPU support, maybe? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Mr.DJ

09-01-2005, 05:07 PM

Well, I absolutely...totally...LOVE!!! the thought of "DNF enhanced with hardware acc. physics by AGEIA"

I really fail to see why people instantly turns this to something negative http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

3DRealms will of course not suddenly drop software physics support because of this, but more likely offer hardware acc. as a second choice, for people wanting the ultimate physics experince in the game.

So the customers(you and me) are the ones who really benefit here.

I'm quite excited about the thought of AGEIA support in DNF! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Little Conqueror

09-01-2005, 05:07 PM

Wow, haven't companies ever stopped to think that some people can't afford to upgrade everytime a new game comes out? I had to upgrade for HL2/Doom 3, and I can't afford to get a PPU, especially if the GPU I have isn't going to cut it either.

Screw this. We should make game companies start going back to sprites.

Mr.DJ

09-01-2005, 05:21 PM

Lol, people must really think 3DRealms are stupid or something, if they really believe 3drealms would exclude a lot of customers by forcing them to buy a physics card.

[u]IF</u> 3DRealms should decide to support AGEIA's chip, they would most definitely still offer a software solution, to those that don't want to buy a physics card!

Denz

09-01-2005, 05:26 PM

I want AGEIA being aquired by Nvidia or ATI. Or even ATI and Nvidia can share this?

I don't want to buy a new card that will cost 150+ €. Just implement them in motherboard of graphic card. Holy shiet! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/ted.gif

Emultra

09-01-2005, 05:29 PM

IntelAMDASUSATinVidiAgeia

- A subdivision of MicroSoftIBMDell

Seraph

09-01-2005, 05:40 PM

Emultra said:
IntelAMDASUSATinVidiAgeia

- A subdivision of MicroSoftIBMDell

^ Thats great. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif How bout' this:

Ageia Presents...

Lord of the Physics.

One SDK To Rule Them All.

Theonewayman

09-01-2005, 06:06 PM

Seraph said:

Emultra said:
IntelAMDASUSATinVidiAgeia

- A subdivision of MicroSoftIBMDell

^ Thats great. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif How bout' this:

Ageia Presents...

Lord of the Physics.

One SDK To Rule Them All.

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

My favorite novel http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

George Broussard

09-01-2005, 06:25 PM

SyntaxN said:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050901/sfth012.html?.v=22)
What does that mean for DNF? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

We're just now hearing about this, too. On the surface I'm not too happy about it as we were getting to a very very stable point with our physics and nearing a point of being tech complete, and just working on polish.

We'll see what happens, but we're certainly not interested in the prospects of moving to a new SDK - again.

Echo Black

09-01-2005, 06:27 PM

Emultra

09-01-2005, 06:31 PM

Isn't it possible to just continue work with what you have now? And ship DNF with it?

Or are there legal issues involved?

Little Conqueror

09-01-2005, 06:36 PM

I knew 3DR wouldn't screw up. I'm talking about OTHER companies who want to be on top of everything tech-wise just because it looks good in press releases. "Our game features dual-channel scan multi-pass lightwave full-spectrum encompassing textured filter mapping!" We're seeing too much of that crap from certain game companies.

Mr.DJ

09-01-2005, 06:43 PM

Well, if you find out it's not too complicated to implement, I'll say go for it! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Or perhaps as a alternative, release a AGEIA enhanced DNF special edition, later after the initial launch.

I must admit, when I first heard of AGEIA and their plans, DNF was the first title that popped into my mind, as being the perfect title to showcase this exciting new technology! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SyntaxN

09-01-2005, 06:47 PM

George Broussard said:
We're just now hearing about this, too. On the surface I'm not too happy about it as we were getting to a very very stable point with our physics and nearing a point of being tech complete, and just working on polish.

We'll see what happens, but we're certainly not interested in the prospects of moving to a new SDK - again.

I thougt Meqon told you guys that Ageia is interested in their company http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
Changing engines again (physics-engine this time) won´t speed up things very much, I hope the base tech is done and you can continue working on it without the special "help" of the meqon crew http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Or perhaps as a alternative, release a AGEIA enhanced DNF special edition, later after the initial launch.

I don´t know what so many people expect from this PhysX chip, the first generation of games which really supports it won´t use much more stuff than "normal" physics engines like Havok and...ex Meqon imo^^

Hudson

09-01-2005, 07:32 PM

George Broussard said:

SyntaxN said:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050901/sfth012.html?.v=22)
What does that mean for DNF? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

We're just now hearing about this, too. On the surface I'm not too happy about it as we were getting to a very very stable point with our physics and nearing a point of being tech complete, and just working on polish.

We'll see what happens, but we're certainly not interested in the prospects of moving to a new SDK - again.

I feel bad for you guys, it seems like every time you get a solid foothold in something, something else comes along to fxck it all up. What I find really interesting is how they never tell the end-users (the people who buy the software) before they go ahead and sell the damn thing.

I revert back to my previous statement about Epic buying the Reality engine.

ultra tree 85!

09-01-2005, 08:26 PM

Ecmaster76

09-01-2005, 09:57 PM

George Broussard said:
We're just now hearing about this, too. On the surface I'm not too happy about it as we were getting to a very very stable point with our physics and nearing a point of being tech complete, and just working on polish.

We'll see what happens, but we're certainly not interested in the prospects of moving to a new SDK - again.

Well, if the interfaces the rest of the engine use never change, it might not be too bad. It would seem that with a sufficiently modular physics end, AGEIA could add support for their card or whatever without ever bothering the game design. Modularity was one of the reasons the Meqon engine was purchased, right?

It'll probably depend on how nice AGEIA plays. If they leave the Meqon development team alone for a bit, who knows. Maybe you'll get final code without much hassle.

Best of luck.

hell-angel

09-02-2005, 01:28 AM

George Broussard said:

SyntaxN said:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050901/sfth012.html?.v=22)
What does that mean for DNF? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

We're just now hearing about this, too. On the surface I'm not too happy about it as we were getting to a very very stable point with our physics and nearing a point of being tech complete, and just working on polish.

We'll see what happens, but we're certainly not interested in the prospects of moving to a new SDK - again.

Do you have to move to a new SDK? I mean, can't you stay with what you currently have??

On the bright side (for us that is http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) This does mean that DNF will automatically have hardware support for physics. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif (Now let's hope that meqon (or ageia as it is now) does not mess thing up. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

SyntaxN

09-02-2005, 04:46 AM

hell-angel said:
On the bright side (for us that is http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) This does mean that DNF will automatically have hardware support for physics. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif (Now let's hope that meqon (or ageia as it is now) does not mess thing up. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

No, it don´t means that they will automatically have support for the PhysX chip, possibly they don´t want to work for something that is useable for only 5% of the customers http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

hell-angel

09-02-2005, 04:52 AM

symantics. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

What I mean is, that there is a chance that (if the SDK DNF will use supports it allready, because the current one obviously does not) DNF will run slightly faster since the physics calculations can be distributed to the physics card of Ageia. Providing of course that you have that card in your comp. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SyntaxN

09-02-2005, 05:00 AM

hell-angel said:
symantics. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

What is the meaning of that? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

hell-angel said:
What I mean is, that there is a chance that (if the SDK DNF will use supports it allready, because the current one obviously does not) DNF will run slightly faster since the physics calculations can be distributed to the physics card of Ageia. Providing of course that you have that card in your comp. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I wrote it in the other thread, speeding up things is ok, but adding more stuff is bs http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
But it´s much work to convert all the physics calculations to the PhysX chip for sure, they´ve to deal with the new architecture etc... and that takes time! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

hell-angel

09-02-2005, 05:05 AM

SyntaxN said:

hell-angel said:
symantics. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

What is the meaning of that? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

The way you can say things.
Example:
I said: DNF will have hardware support for the physics
You said: No, DNF will have support for the physics chip.

It's the same thing (i.e. has the same meaning) but differently said. That's called symantics. My spelling could be wrong though. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

hell-angel said:
What I mean is, that there is a chance that (if the SDK DNF will use supports it allready, because the current one obviously does not) DNF will run slightly faster since the physics calculations can be distributed to the physics card of Ageia. Providing of course that you have that card in your comp. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I wrote it in the other thread, speeding up things is ok, but adding more stuff is bs http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
But it´s much work to convert all the physics calculations to the PhysX chip for sure, they´ve to deal with the new architecture etc... and that takes time! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

True, but that's why I said there is a CHANCE that DNF will have it, not a certainty. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif (although my post before that suggested otherwise. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

SyntaxN

09-02-2005, 05:37 AM

The way you can say things.
Example:
I said: DNF will have hardware support for the physics
You said: No, DNF will have support for the physics chip.

It's the same thing (i.e. has the same meaning) but differently said. That's called symantics. My spelling could be wrong though. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ok..... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

True, but that's why I said there is a CHANCE that DNF will have it, not a certainty. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif (although my post before that suggested otherwise. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

Lets wait for George who is going to clarify that "soon" for sure http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Parkar

09-02-2005, 05:46 AM

My guess is that it just means (hopefully) that there will be minor changes to the sdk that enables it to run on the PPU. From what I have heard that is how it works on the engine ue3 uses (forgot the name just now). Basically if you have the ppu it will calculate the physics if you don't have it the cpu will do the work.

Hopefully it will be minor changes to the sdk or that they can just keep using the sdk they have now without PPU support. Basically the only thing that would effect DNF is if the API is changed unless 3dr has actualy made changes to the actual meqon engine. The lowlevel stuff that is specific to the ppu will be taken care of by the engine.

This is just from what I know about how ths things usualy works. I don't think there is any reason to worry just yet until it's clear what ageia has planed for meqon.

hell-angel

09-02-2005, 06:24 AM

Parkar said:
My guess is that it just means (hopefully) that there will be minor changes to the sdk that enables it to run on the PPU. From what I have heard that is how it works on the engine ue3 uses (forgot the name just now). Basically if you have the ppu it will calculate the physics if you don't have it the cpu will do the work.

Hopefully it will be minor changes to the sdk or that they can just keep using the sdk they have now without PPU support. Basically the only thing that would effect DNF is if the API is changed unless 3dr has actualy made changes to the actual meqon engine. The lowlevel stuff that is specific to the ppu will be taken care of by the engine.

This is just from what I know about how ths things usualy works. I don't think there is any reason to worry just yet until it's clear what ageia has planed for meqon.

Well, that's how it should work (and of course, usually does. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
But I agree, Let's not worry about it. DNF will most likely not require the PPU (based on what GB has said that is) and it will still rock. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Parkar

09-02-2005, 07:05 AM

hell-angel said:
...
But I agree, Let's now worry about it. DNF will most likely not require the PPU (based on what GB has said that is) and it will still rock. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Made a spelling error there maybe. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dopefish.gif

hell-angel

09-02-2005, 07:08 AM

Parkar said:

hell-angel said:
...
But I agree, Let's now worry about it. DNF will most likely not require the PPU (based on what GB has said that is) and it will still rock. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Made a spelling error there maybe. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dopefish.gif

fixed it. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Emultra

09-02-2005, 07:42 AM

They should just integrate the PPU in motherboards.

FireFly

09-02-2005, 07:55 AM

PhysX cards will cost $250 - $300.

hell-angel

09-02-2005, 09:06 AM

FireFly said:
PhysX cards will cost $250 - $300.

In the beginning, but this might drop in the future (or increase of course. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

Emultra

09-02-2005, 09:06 AM

Well, that just sucks. It's the last thing we need in these times.

crunchy superman

09-02-2005, 09:06 AM

Emultra said:
They should just integrate the PPU in motherboards.

That'll likely happen.

hell-angel

09-02-2005, 09:08 AM

crunchysuperman said:

Emultra said:
They should just integrate the PPU in motherboards.

That'll likely happen.

I hope not, then we get PPU's with shared memory. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mryuck.gif Look what that did to video cards, and people are complaining why the games don't run as expected with there onboard video suff. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif

Theonewayman

09-02-2005, 09:12 AM

FireFly said:
PhysX cards will cost $250 - $300.

How do you know, prices were not made public?

And if that is the final price i will not buy one, for $300 i can by i good CPU insted, or a better GPU, PPU´s are ONLY for physics so they imo can´t have the same price as CPU`s and GPU`s that have so many more functions http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif.

hell-angel

09-02-2005, 09:15 AM

Theonewayman said:

FireFly said:
PhysX cards will cost $250 - $300.

How do you know, prices were not made public?

And if that is the final price i will not buy one, for $300 i can by i good CPU insted, or a better GPU, PPU´s are ONLY for physics so they imo can´t have the same price as CPU`s and GPU`s that have so many more functions http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif.

It's the development time that make up the costs. Remember, the years in development that where put in and the money it costs have to earned back, that's why they cost around that price.

Also, the prices where mentionend on several websites allready and at least one retailer iirc. Can't remember where though.

BioHazard

09-02-2005, 09:20 AM

According to this news on IGN we should start seeing physx cards by the end of the year.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/647/647288p1.html

September 1, 2005 - The era of the physics processing unit (PPU) began today with the announcement of a retail distribution agreement between AGEIA Technologies, Inc., the developer of the PhysX PPU, and BFG Technologies, Inc., a leading U.S.-based supplier of advanced 3D graphics cards and other PC enthusiast products. Under the contract, BFG Technologies will manufacture, sell, market, and distribute personal computer add-in cards powered by the AGEIA PhysX processor to retail, e-tail, and distributors in the United States, Canada, and the European Union.

According to AGEIA, the PhysX chip, when combined with the PhysX SDK (software development kit), provides "cost- effective hardware acceleration of physical interactions within a game environment, such as fluid dynamics and rigid body dynamics."

BFG Technologies intends to offer stand-alone PCI cards with the AGEIA PhysX processor and 128MB of local memory, which is used for storing and processing physics data during game play. Products will be available at the end of this year. Pricing and other product details will be announced at that time.

Cerberus_e

09-02-2005, 09:23 AM

hell-angel said:

FireFly said:
PhysX cards will cost $250 - $300.

In the beginning, but this might drop in the future (or increase of course. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

they'll just make better and better cards

hell-angel

09-02-2005, 09:23 AM

More data about the physics chip including a estimated retail price:
http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=140

The currently expected MSRP for a card like this: $249 to $299. Yep, you read that right. Be prepared in the years to come to add another $200+ part to your system for optimal gaming experience. A chip this size and this complex isn't going to come cheap, at least not in its current form.

Orochi Avlis

09-02-2005, 09:25 AM

Do you think that older games would be able to use these cards?

hell-angel

09-02-2005, 09:26 AM

Orochi Avlis said:
Do you think that older games would be able to use these cards?

No, simply because they don't make use of the Ageia SDK. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Orochi Avlis

09-02-2005, 09:27 AM

Makes sense.

I knew it was a long shot.

sflufan

09-02-2005, 09:35 AM

Permadeath said:
According to this news on IGN we should start seeing physx cards by the end of the year.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/647/647288p1.html

Thank you for linking to the article that I wrote http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Theonewayman

09-02-2005, 09:51 AM

Development time? ok i´m not a expert in this matter, but how many time it takes to make a PCI card, that only have a PPU chip and 128 mb of memory, as far as i know it will not need any type of cooling system, and if it need will not be anymore them a small metal cooler on top of the chip, so it don´t have more bilding costs as a GPU that need to have a metal coolar a vent( and some have big vents) and extra energie suply.

So to me 250€ 300€ is to much. This card imo is in the 100€ 150€ range.

Remenber this card is only for physics and as far as we know it will only work with the AGEIA SDK, Havok is used in more games and ODE will be use in STALKER, so if you by this card it will only be usefull in some games. To me for now is a wast of money, but that will certanly change in the future as more games start using AGEIA SDK or the PPU starts to be compatible with other SDK´s (IMO that is the more correct way) like the GPU´s that work with two API´s DirectX and OpenGL .

-----------------------------------------------------

A read the article above and and see that asus is using a cooler system in there prototipe cards, my information came only from the AGEIA site and they never told us how this chip was made and what not, so i was wrong about the cooling system and also about the nedded of extra energie suply. So sorry about that, the prices now make more sence so i will retry my above prices, but i continue to think that is a wast of money.

Parkar

09-02-2005, 10:11 AM

That's production cost. Development cost is the cost of designing the hardware and software involved. New products like this will always be a luxury in the beginning and if it turns out to be successful prices will start to drop making it common place. PPU's will probably not be common place until it starts to be integrated with other hardware and this is ageias plan as far as I know. They have to start somewhere though.

crunchy superman

09-02-2005, 10:22 AM

A lot of overreaction here IMO. The time when one of these is required for any game is probably several years off in the future. Until then, we'll see games that will support it, but not require it - so what's the big deal?

BioHazard

09-02-2005, 11:46 AM

Another article from extremetech, which suggests the $249-299 price point will be about right.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0 (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1855078,00.asp)

LONDON -- Ageia, the startup whose goal is to add physics acceleration to gaming systems, will announce BFG Technologies as its second add-on card partner, executives said.
The announcement, scheduled for Thursday night in the U.S., will complement the Asus partnership and card the company has announced, according to Kathy Schoback, vice president of content acquisition for Ageia. Schoback confirmed that Ageia's partners will sell the cards at prices between $249 and $299 sometime this fall, "closer to Christmas," she said.

ADVERTISEMENT Although Ageia has demonstrated its PhysX chip and related Novodex engine to journalists, the company again showed prerendered movies of the technology at the Game Developers Conference Europe here. Several versions of the technology will be offered: software-based rendering on single- and dual-core PCs, software versions running on the Playstation 3 and Xbox 360, and PCs equipped with PhysX chips.

Although the PhysX libraries accelerate a host of technologies, from physical object interactions to fluid-based particle effects like water and smoke, only the PlayStation 3 and a PhysX PC will have the horsepower to process all of the technology's features, Ageia executives said. The Xbox 360 will not be able to process the fluid-based technology, because of the limitations of its architecture.

A dual-core processor will be able to process the software-rendered physics acceleration on the second core, providing a boost in performance. In one demonstration the company showed, 6,000 boulders raced down a slope, colliding with each other and with a polygon "mesh" that served as the slope. On a single-core machine, that demonstration can run at less than 20 frames per second, monopolizing much of the PC, executives said. Running on a dual-core machine, the physics processing required less than half of one core, processing 6,000 boulders at 40 frames per second, they said.

PhysX cards have already shipped to developers, Schoback said.

Acid

09-02-2005, 12:45 PM

Physx cards already shipped to developers, i like the sounds of that http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Emultra

09-02-2005, 01:02 PM

PPU selling for almost as much as an entire console - which by the way is getting that very chip?

Excuse me, but that's bullsh!t and a ripoff. We pay enough for entire Xbo360-priced video cards and the other stuff.

Acid

09-02-2005, 01:20 PM

I reckon the only way your gonna get everyone to get one of these PPU chips is if there integrated with future Graphics cards or Motherboards in that way they'll eventually come down in price and make it more affordable for everyone instead of having to buy another card, ontop of everything alse.

FireFly

09-02-2005, 01:21 PM

Neither the Xbox 360 nor the PS3 will have a PPU.

Orochi Avlis

09-02-2005, 01:24 PM

Emultra said:
PPU selling for almost as much as an entire console - which by the way is getting that very chip?

Excuse me, but that's bullsh!t and a ripoff. We pay enough for entire Xbo360-priced video cards and the other stuff.

But it can be used for more than just games.
And you can put it on a newer PC, if you like, in the future.

Micki!

09-02-2005, 02:51 PM

Orochi Avlis said:

Emultra said:
PPU selling for almost as much as an entire console - which by the way is getting that very chip?

Excuse me, but that's bullsh!t and a ripoff. We pay enough for entire Xbo360-priced video cards and the other stuff.

But it can be used for more than just games.

Really... What for instance... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I thought this was gaming hardware ONLY... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

Orochi Avlis

09-02-2005, 02:55 PM

A phsyics engine is commonly used for games, but can it can also be used for simulations.

Micki!

09-02-2005, 03:02 PM

Orochi Avlis said:
A phsyics engine is commonly used for games, but can it can also be used for simulations.

of course... But aren't simulations are basicly the same as a game... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

Anyways... I'd ONLY get a PPU if many of the future games i'd want supports it... DNF won't be among those future games, since that would be too early i guess... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif (That is, IF DNF is going to support PPU's)

Rider

09-02-2005, 03:08 PM

I am slightly amused by the fact that the community picked up the news and posted it on the forums, before 3DR themselves got official word.

sorta shows how hyped some of us STILL are http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Mennuz

09-02-2005, 03:56 PM

And al the gaming sites are allready screaming that DNF will have an extra delay. a well, who's shocked.

lamuh

09-02-2005, 04:57 PM

Mennuz said:
And al the gaming sites are allready screaming that DNF will have an extra delay. a well, who's shocked.

This won't effect 3DR hardly at all. They pretty much have the physics done. They can just work with the Meqon people they worked with before for the final tweaks even if they are in different offices. I just hope that AEGIA will not act like EA which is a big bloated dead goat that only puts out crap and rottenness.

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

Orochi Avlis

09-02-2005, 06:25 PM

Micki! said:

Orochi Avlis said:
A phsyics engine is commonly used for games, but can it can also be used for simulations.

of course... But aren't simulations are basicly the same as a game... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

Not necessarily.

Shams

09-02-2005, 06:49 PM

So this means DNF is either 2007 or 200n. The game must have lotta other stuff in it to play with than the original gameplay.

Xellos

09-02-2005, 08:36 PM

You know I feel really bad for 3DRealms, it seems like everything possible can go wrong. They can never catch a break.

I just wanna say thank you 3DRealms for continue to work on this hard project for us fans http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Emultra

09-02-2005, 08:43 PM

I want some updates about this, from 3DR.

Because I care about the game.

Jeff

09-02-2005, 08:51 PM

So with this PPU coming into play, then that would mean less work for the CPU to do, and probably less of a CPU requirement for upcoming games? Sounds nice. I had made a mistake with this current system by buying a high end video card (X800 Pro), and a mid ranged CPU (A64 3200+ 754). What I should have done is waited and gone a high end CPU (like a dual core), and a mid ranged GPU (6600 GT). I could always add in a PPU card in later. I might do that strategy for my next system I build.

Emultra

09-02-2005, 09:19 PM

An A64 3200+ with an X800Pro will do you better - at a much better price - than a dual core right now.

Jeff

09-02-2005, 09:42 PM

Maybe that's why I bought it? I don't know. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Kalki

09-03-2005, 01:26 AM

They should have acquired endorphin. That's the stuff that really requires a ppu and is really the way of the future imo. Meqon is here and now. It was created for conventional hardware. They'd be ruining it by making it do more than merely "support" their chips.

Hope GB gets a clarification about this- and posts about it later. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thomas Mayer

09-03-2005, 04:42 AM

George Broussard said:

SyntaxN said:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050901/sfth012.html?.v=22)
What does that mean for DNF? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

We're just now hearing about this, too. On the surface I'm not too happy about it as we were getting to a very very stable point with our physics and nearing a point of being tech complete, and just working on polish.

We'll see what happens, but we're certainly not interested in the prospects of moving to a new SDK - again.

Why would you be moving to a new SDK? Do you really think AGEIA is going to take Meqon and re-engineer it? Hell no, they are going to be adding hardware based calls to the SDK for their upcoming PhysX card like they did with Novodex. Those calls with most likely be either compile time #defined out or some kind of dll call, so if it fails it reverts to software.

It will probably be compatible with what you guys are using now. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif They are keen for it to be as plug and play as possible.

HairBall

09-03-2005, 05:54 AM

this game dous not exist anymore!

Rider

09-03-2005, 06:13 AM

HairBall said:
this game dous not exist anymore!

It's too bad you can't spell... you could've made a point...

Micki!

09-03-2005, 06:44 AM

Rider said:

HairBall said:
this game dous not exist anymore!

It's too bad you can't spell... you could've made a point...

So true... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

HairBall

09-03-2005, 06:49 AM

At least i have an excuse, i am not english. You get my point, so behave and dont flame me becouse of my bad english.

Micki!

09-03-2005, 07:07 AM

HairBall said:
At least i have an excuse, i am not english. You get my point, so behave and dont flame me becouse of my bad english.

We are not flaming you... We are telling you...
But why are you 'trolling' this thread then..?! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

HairBall

09-03-2005, 07:18 AM

trolling, man just saying my point off view. This game has "allomst" been complete for "4" years. And now there "will be new updates". NO game has taken this long!

BioHazard

09-03-2005, 07:26 AM

HairBall said:
trolling, man just saying my point off view. This game has "allomst" been complete for "4" years. And now there "will be new updates". NO game has taken this long!

Yes, I think DNF now holds the record for longest ever development period for a game, by a long margin. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

Cerberus_e

09-03-2005, 07:42 AM

HairBall said:
trolling, man just saying my point off view. This game has "allomst" been complete for "4" years. And now there "will be new updates". NO game has taken this long!

"no game has taken this long" is a bad point:

1) there has to be ONE game that took the longest.
is there a definition that says "the game that took the longest will never come out"? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
2) development time becomes longer the later it comes out (2006 games take longer than 1996 games). development started in 2002, is 3 years really that long?

Micki!

09-03-2005, 07:53 AM

HairBall said:
trolling, man just saying my point off view. This game has "allomst" been complete for "4" years. And now there "will be new updates". NO game has taken this long!

Didn't HL2 take about 5 years to develop..?

Needle

09-03-2005, 08:04 AM

HairBall said:
NO game has taken this long!

Yeah. So? What's your point? And what does it have to do with Meqon?

Twin

09-03-2005, 11:27 AM

i hope this doesn't lengthen the time DNF takes to come out....this is pretty much the only game i'm really looking forward to now (besides new sonic games)

Little Conqueror

09-03-2005, 03:11 PM

HairBall said:
trolling, man just saying my point off view. This game has "allomst" been complete for "4" years. And now there "will be new updates". NO game has taken this long!

Um, hello? Ever hear of Team Fortress 2? Nobody ever jumps on Valve for this mysterious piece of vaporware, but it's been supposedly "in development" for almost as long as DNF.

SyntaxN

09-03-2005, 03:18 PM

Um, hello? Ever hear of Team Fortress 2? Nobody ever jumps on Valve for this mysterious piece of vaporware, but it's been supposedly "in development" for almost as long as DNF.

You´re so right, I thought about that when some guys put out some new infos about it from the source sdk.
DNF became the definition of vapoware in the last years, I don´t understand why...

Tang Lung

09-03-2005, 04:32 PM

Because people don't want TF2 as much as DNF. Why would you whine so passionatly about something if you didn't feel strongly about it. Contrary to what impression the internet gives you DNF is still very much anticipated, people are just really annoyed that 3DR won't give any info on it. All the ''I hate freedrelm becuz they sucks http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Duke nukim forNEVER Lolol will nevar be out ahaha'' Is just a cry for help, in reality they are sat at their computer crying a single tear into their glasses of herbal tea, waiting for the Duke to return.

What was I saying? oh yeh that's right! go meqon!

Micki!

09-03-2005, 04:39 PM

Tang Lung said:
go meqon!

It's nice to see someone here staying on topic for a change... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

avatar_58

09-03-2005, 05:28 PM

Little Conqueror said:
Um, hello? Ever hear of Team Fortress 2? Nobody ever jumps on Valve for this mysterious piece of vaporware, but it's been supposedly "in development" for almost as long as DNF.

Haha...anyone recall the mysterious "fire" that took out their entire codebase? I had to laugh when I heard this and thought they were very desperate for excuses.

Echo Black

09-03-2005, 05:32 PM

avatar_58 said:

Little Conqueror said:
Um, hello? Ever hear of Team Fortress 2? Nobody ever jumps on Valve for this mysterious piece of vaporware, but it's been supposedly "in development" for almost as long as DNF.

Haha...anyone recall the mysterious "fire" that took out their entire codebase? I had to laugh when I heard this and thought they were very desperate for excuses.

Yeah, TF2 is vaporware, but at least we're getting Day of Defeat: Source this month. Valve still has its dignity as a developer preserved in my book, seeing how HL2 matched its predecessor. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif If the expense of that are delays, I can live with that, although not all of them are BS, like the hacking of the mainframe (a german hacker got arrested by the FBI).

avatar_58

09-03-2005, 05:34 PM

Valve lost all dignity in my eyes when they forced steam upon me. It happened during a time when steam ran like shit on my PC and required high speed just to get the same Ping I had with 128k. I bought HL2 as a half-life fan....but I hate them for closing WON.

Assault

09-04-2005, 12:34 AM

avatar_58 said:
Valve lost all dignity in my eyes when they forced steam upon me. It happened during a time when steam ran like shit on my PC and required high speed just to get the same Ping I had with 128k. I bought HL2 as a half-life fan....but I hate them for closing WON.

Steam is awful. It's concept might be inevitable, but it sucks. Also, that whole "Hacker" story still seems a bit far-fetched to me.
They screwed up quiet a few times, but lots of companies do.

Echo Black

09-04-2005, 04:56 AM

They screwed up quiet a few times, but lots of companies do.

*Looks at which company's forums we're browsing* Yes, the irony is delicious http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

(But hope dies last)

Cerberus_e

09-04-2005, 05:13 AM

Echo Black said:
Valve still has its dignity as a developer preserved in my book, seeing how HL2 matched its predecessor. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

they lost their indignity in my eyes for bringing out a rushed game, HL2, which does in no way live up to HL.
so I'm happy 3DR makes their time, so it doesn't become the next HL2, and am tired of people constantly laughing at them for taking their time (not saying you do, I'm talking in general).

Echo Black said:
not all of them are BS, like the hacking of the mainframe (a german hacker got arrested by the FBI).

there shouldn't be a cracker in the first place, does Valve know a lot about network security? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

but I'm also wondering something about AGEIA this whole thread long, isn't a physics chip just another processor with the name "physics chip" slapped on it? or what special is it to be called a physics chip?

Echo Black

09-04-2005, 05:20 AM

there shouldn't be a cracker in the first place, does Valve know a lot about network security?

It's hard to avoid hacking, don't they even hire hackers to help them predict the mindset of someone trying to hack their systems?

Not that it makes up for Valve's less believable marketing stunts. And I strongly disagree with you, I found HL2 superb and I think it lived up to the hype. Most people and publications seem to agree with me so I know I'm not crazy http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Cerberus_e

09-04-2005, 05:57 AM

Echo Black said:

there shouldn't be a cracker in the first place, does Valve know a lot about network security?

It's hard to avoid hacking, don't they even hire hackers to help them predict the mindset of someone trying to hack their systems?

why has no one cracked into 3DR yet, then?
you'd think crackers would be more curious after DNF than HL2, because there was already HL2 media...

...hmm, maybe someone did, but doesn't leak it out of respect for 3DR http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

HairBall

09-04-2005, 08:29 AM

Cerberus_e said:

HairBall said:
trolling, man just saying my point off view. This game has "allomst" been complete for "4" years. And now there "will be new updates". NO game has taken this long!

"no game has taken this long" is a bad point:

1) there has to be ONE game that took the longest.
is there a definition that says "the game that took the longest will never come out"? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
2) development time becomes longer the later it comes out (2006 games take longer than 1996 games). development started in 2002, is 3 years really that long?

"3 years", the planing and ideas startesd in 97, so i have to say it startet there. Maybe allmost all off the ideeas from that time are dropet, but the planing off DNF started in 97.

HairBall

09-04-2005, 08:31 AM

Needle said:

HairBall said:
NO game has taken this long!

Yeah. So? What's your point? And what does it have to do with Meqon?

Its will be even longer before we see it, is they change the software....

HairBall

09-04-2005, 08:33 AM

Little Conqueror said:

HairBall said:
trolling, man just saying my point off view. This game has "allomst" been complete for "4" years. And now there "will be new updates". NO game has taken this long!

Um, hello? Ever hear of Team Fortress 2? Nobody ever jumps on Valve for this mysterious piece of vaporware, but it's been supposedly "in development" for almost as long as DNF.

but valve never did say: its coming out in "1998,1999,2000,2001".....

Cerberus_e

09-04-2005, 08:38 AM

neither did 3DR, they always said WID.
at max, they said: if DNF is not out in 2001, something is seriously wrong.

and well, something was seriously wrong, so it's not 2001, so they never lied http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

also, it doesn't mater if ideas started in 1997, I have some ideas for a game too now, does that mean my game started in 2005? even if I only start within 5 years, for example? (not that I will ever create a game or something, it's just an example)
and yes, they already started making the game in 97, but they scrapped everything, so the progress they made doesn't matter.

Emultra

09-04-2005, 08:43 AM

I also want an answer to whether or not the physics ship has some special architecture (like a video card for graphics) to make it something other than simply another processor.

Parkar

09-04-2005, 08:54 AM

It is nothing like a processor. If it was just an extra processor you would be able to do the stuff with a regular high end pc easily. Haven't read up on the specifics but it is some form of array with a bunch of processing units working in parallel.

Micki!

09-04-2005, 10:46 AM

HairBall said:

Little Conqueror said:

HairBall said:
trolling, man just saying my point off view. This game has "allomst" been complete for "4" years. And now there "will be new updates". NO game has taken this long!

Um, hello? Ever hear of Team Fortress 2? Nobody ever jumps on Valve for this mysterious piece of vaporware, but it's been supposedly "in development" for almost as long as DNF.

but valve never did say: its coming out in "1998,1999,2000,2001".....

That's not really true...
Valve said that HL2 would come out in September 2001... That changed tomid 2002 (Not really sure if it was 2002 though) and several months ... It didn't came out in 2003, even though, they said it would surely be done before...

That's about the truth i remember... Don't you usually research for such results before coming with such statements..?!

Orochi Avlis

09-04-2005, 11:01 AM

Micki! said:

HairBall said:

Little Conqueror said:

HairBall said:
trolling, man just saying my point off view. This game has "allomst" been complete for "4" years. And now there "will be new updates". NO game has taken this long!

Um, hello? Ever hear of Team Fortress 2? Nobody ever jumps on Valve for this mysterious piece of vaporware, but it's been supposedly "in development" for almost as long as DNF.

but valve never did say: its coming out in "1998,1999,2000,2001".....

That's not really true...
Valve said that HL2 would come out in September 2001... That changed tomid 2002 (Not really sure if it was 2002 though) and several months ... It didn't came out in 2003, even though, they said it would surely be done before...

That's about the truth i remember... Don't you usually research for such results before coming with such statements..?!

No, they never said 2001 or 2002. We didn't even know it existed at that point.
They said Sept 30th, 2003 initially.
To then it was released on November 14th (or 16th) of the following year.

"Don't you usually research for such results before coming with such statements..?!" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anywho, the original HL was delayed a year as well.

EDIT: Forgot to add to add the following year part.

Micki!

09-04-2005, 11:13 AM

Orochi Avlis said:

"Don't you usually research for such results before coming with such statements..?!" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anywho, the original HL was delayed a year as well.

Yes i do... But apparently i searc the wrong places... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

At least i was right with Sptember...
But it's true that Valve had several release dates... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

Mennuz

09-04-2005, 11:16 AM

A well, lets just hope it hasn't got concequenses for the release date. But one day i will say "To hell with this game". I'm a big duke nukem fan, and i'm waiting for DNF since i heard of it in 1997. Maybe i'm insane, but i think of DNF every day since then http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

Little Conqueror

09-04-2005, 11:10 PM

TF2 is the single largest lie in the gaming industry. It's like Wyoming: it doesn't really exist.

hell-angel

09-05-2005, 01:36 AM

Let's not talk about release dates here ok.

As for the PPU, it's not just another CPU, it has instructions for physics code embedded on it, and that's what makes it that fast. There are also most likely some special functions embedded on it (like matrix calculations for a GPU) that are not on a CPU. That's what is making this usefull. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Emultra

09-05-2005, 07:45 AM

But how many components will PC's consist of in the end? Will we have to buy seven multi-hundred dollar pieces of hardware instead of three?

Are [gaming] PC's going to become the meant-for-few economic monstrosities that they once were?

I mean, consoles are already (and have for years) making PC's seem like bloated, expensive machines that cost ten times as much but only delivers twice. If consoles will be continued to be subsidized by their manufacturers and sold at the price we pay for a video card - which is quite impotent on its own as you know - whilst we PC gamers continue instead to pick up the tab for increasing hardware manufacture costs, where will it end?

I don't have as much money as Microsoft or Sony.

hell-angel

09-05-2005, 08:53 AM

You have a good point. That's what worries me as well, but I doubt there will be much more then we allready have. Maybe an AI chip, but I think that can allways be run on a normal CPU just fine.

Cerberus_e

09-05-2005, 09:05 AM

Emultra said:
I mean, consoles are already (and have for years) making PC's seem like bloated, expensive machines that cost ten times as much but only delivers twice.

not really, I can use my PC for so many other things it makes up for the extra cost.

Emultra

09-05-2005, 09:46 AM

Sure, me too. And I'm a hardcore PC gamer (though I might get one of the new consoles as well).

Little Conqueror

09-05-2005, 11:22 AM

Emultra said:
But how many components will PC's consist of in the end? Will we have to buy seven multi-hundred dollar pieces of hardware instead of three?

Are [gaming] PC's going to become the meant-for-few economic monstrosities that they once were?

I mean, consoles are already (and have for years) making PC's seem like bloated, expensive machines that cost ten times as much but only delivers twice. If consoles will be continued to be subsidized by their manufacturers and sold at the price we pay for a video card - which is quite impotent on its own as you know - whilst we PC gamers continue instead to pick up the tab for increasing hardware manufacture costs, where will it end?

I don't have as much money as Microsoft or Sony.

Everybody in the computer hardware industry should be forced to read this. They would learn a lot.

bobk

09-05-2005, 12:33 PM

Little Conqueror said:

Emultra said:
But how many components will PC's consist of in the end? Will we have to buy seven multi-hundred dollar pieces of hardware instead of three?

Are [gaming] PC's going to become the meant-for-few economic monstrosities that they once were?

I mean, consoles are already (and have for years) making PC's seem like bloated, expensive machines that cost ten times as much but only delivers twice. If consoles will be continued to be subsidized by their manufacturers and sold at the price we pay for a video card - which is quite impotent on its own as you know - whilst we PC gamers continue instead to pick up the tab for increasing hardware manufacture costs, where will it end?

I don't have as much money as Microsoft or Sony.

Everybody in the computer hardware industry should be forced to read this. They would learn a lot.

I think Nvidia or ATI should jump in here and create a card that is basically a gaming rig on a card. The physics calcs, pixel shaders, everything on a card. $299. Basically a game level and all charactors get uploaded to the card. When that happens, and a standard is created, and a simplified general programming language for this is created, then the hassles of developing games for PC platforms will be minimised. This same hardware could be incorporated in a console.

bobk

09-05-2005, 01:35 PM

Here is a pretty good article on Physics hardware:

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2376

This is very pertinent to the AGEIA topic.

Anandtech is a very reputable site.

Evil Angel

09-05-2005, 03:07 PM

I think in an ideal world AGEIA would licencse their stuff to ATi and Nvidia and they would then just provide an integrated chip on their graphics cards in the mid-high end or make 2 flavours of cards. One with, one without. Or maybe even motherboard manufacturers could do this and make a funky gaming motherboard. After all integrated graphics and sound took off on motherboards why not physics? Once they start to take hold and the prices come down they'll become a standard bit of kit.

IMHO either of these solutions is preferable to having to buy a seperate physics card. Of course they should still be available though for anyone who wants one.

Relating to DNF I took this quote from an article on GamesIndustry about the sale of Meqon.

"The company has pledged to support current Meqon customers and provide a smooth transition to next-generation versions of the AGEIA PhysX SDK."

Easier said than done? I don't know. I just hope they do whatever they can and make things as easy as possible. I suppose on the bright side if this all works out DNF will be one of the first games to support physics cards. Can't be such a bad thing can it?

Parkar

09-05-2005, 03:20 PM

Evil Angel said:
I think in an ideal world AGEIA would licencse their stuff to ATi and Nvidia and they would then just provide an integrated chip on their graphics cards in the mid-high end or make 2 flavours of cards. One with, one without. Or maybe even motherboard manufacturers could do this and make a funky gaming motherboard. After all integrated graphics and sound took off on motherboards why not physics? Once they start to take hold and the prices come down they'll become a standard bit of kit.

IMHO either of these solutions is preferable to having to buy a seperate physics card. Of course they should still be available though for anyone who wants one.

Relating to DNF I took this quote from an article on GamesIndustry about the sale of Meqon.

"The company has pledged to support current Meqon customers and provide a smooth transition to next-generation versions of the AGEIA PhysX SDK."

Easier said than done? I don't know. I just hope they do whatever they can and make things as easy as possible. I suppose on the bright side if this all works out DNF will be one of the first games to support physics cards. Can't be such a bad thing can it?

That is Ageia's plan, to partner with other hardware manufacturers to integrate the physics chip onto mother boards and/or graphic cards and maybe other hardware as well. The reason they are releasing a stand alone pci card is that they have to start somewhere. Don't expect them to get cheap right after release. With time it will probably(hopefully) be as common on gamer motherboards as integrated sound cards.

Micki!

09-05-2005, 03:28 PM

Parkar said:

Evil Angel said:
I think in an ideal world AGEIA would licencse their stuff to ATi and Nvidia and they would then just provide an integrated chip on their graphics cards in the mid-high end or make 2 flavours of cards. One with, one without. Or maybe even motherboard manufacturers could do this and make a funky gaming motherboard. After all integrated graphics and sound took off on motherboards why not physics? Once they start to take hold and the prices come down they'll become a standard bit of kit.

IMHO either of these solutions is preferable to having to buy a seperate physics card. Of course they should still be available though for anyone who wants one.

Relating to DNF I took this quote from an article on GamesIndustry about the sale of Meqon.

"The company has pledged to support current Meqon customers and provide a smooth transition to next-generation versions of the AGEIA PhysX SDK."

Easier said than done? I don't know. I just hope they do whatever they can and make things as easy as possible. I suppose on the bright side if this all works out DNF will be one of the first games to support physics cards. Can't be such a bad thing can it?

That is Ageia's plan, to partner with other hardware manufacturers to integrate the physics chip onto mother boards and/or graphic cards and maybe other hardware as well. The reason they are releasing a stand alone pci card is that they have to start somewhere. Don't expect them to get cheap right after release. With time it will probably(hopefully) be as common on gamer motherboards as integrated sound cards.

I want my PPU to be intergated into my next Sound card... Then i can hear those awesome physics without any sound perfomance drop... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Theonewayman

09-05-2005, 07:42 PM

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

hell-angel

09-06-2005, 01:36 AM

Parkar said:
That is Ageia's plan, to partner with other hardware manufacturers to integrate the physics chip onto mother boards and/or graphic cards and maybe other hardware as well. The reason they are releasing a stand alone pci card is that they have to start somewhere. Don't expect them to get cheap right after release. With time it will probably(hopefully) be as common on gamer motherboards as integrated sound cards.

Great, and of course it uses shared memory and with the lot of geometry data the physics engine uses, my computer will run slower then ever. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif No thanks, I prefer a stand alone card over intergrated stuff any day of the week.

slapnutz

09-06-2005, 02:20 AM

Why dont the PC industry take a page from the nex-gen consoles and use multicore/chip/SPE...etc.... CPUs to run physics?

I dont want to end up with 10 addon cards with 20fans and a 10GigaWatt PSU that runs on 3Phase Mains power! arrgghh! <feels better>

AMD and Intel have release dual core CPUs.... why dont devs just dedicate __% of the 2nd core for physics?

The R&D Physics simulation industry (e.g. Crash testing) can have their own chipset if they want..... kinda like how ATI and nVidia have their FireGL and Quadra graphics/CAD orientated vid cards.

Lastly, with consoles coming into the HD era.... soon myself and others will no longer need a superexpensive PC for games. (apart from anoying mouse advantage) http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

hell-angel

09-06-2005, 04:56 AM

slapnutz said:
Why dont the PC industry take a page from the nex-gen consoles and use multicore/chip/SPE...etc.... CPUs to run physics?

I dont want to end up with 10 addon cards with 20fans and a 10GigaWatt PSU that runs on 3Phase Mains power! arrgghh! <feels better>

AMD and Intel have release dual core CPUs.... why dont devs just dedicate __% of the 2nd core for physics?

Well, they allready can, the problem is that most user don't have it due to pricing issues. Plus, for most applications it's useless to have multiple cores/cpu's.

Next to that, there are a lot of traps you can very easily fall into when using threads (which you need for this). And NO developer is willing to risk that if they don't need it.

Lastly, with consoles coming into the HD era.... soon myself and others will no longer need a superexpensive PC for games. (apart from anoying mouse advantage) http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

hehe, I think most gamers will say the same:
IF consoles would support a mouse and a keyboard and 1280x1024 resolution (or higher) with my computer screen, I will buy and play only on a console. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think that the first console that brings mouses and keyboards to it will own the market. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Assault

09-06-2005, 05:06 AM

PPU should go together with the graphic card.

hell-angel

09-06-2005, 06:29 AM

Assault said:
PPU should go together with the graphic card.

Could be, that all depends on how much of the graphics memory we are allready using and how much extra memory the PPU needs. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Theonewayman

09-06-2005, 07:42 PM

The GPU´s don´t have space for the PPU chip because it is biger, and it will nedd extra memory to work, so i don´t espect to see a GPU with a PPU chip in the near future, while the ppu chip don´t change for a small size. Hand even if it did the card will be still very big and with a huge power consunption. No Thanks

neuromancer

09-06-2005, 08:05 PM

As I said in another thread, It's a same, from AGEIA's side, that they forced Meqon to remove their demos from their site. Totaly pathetic. The reason was of course the superiority of Meqon's demos to those of AGEIA. Tech alone is not enough. The way you use it counts more.

It sounds like: Eliminate the better to become the best.

bobk

09-06-2005, 08:30 PM

Theonewayman said:
The GPU´s don´t have space for the PPU chip because it is biger, and it will nedd extra memory to work, so i don´t espect to see a GPU with a PPU chip in the near future, while the ppu chip don´t change for a small size. Hand even if it did the card will be still very big and with a huge power consunption. No Thanks

As with all things graphic, when you see the killer app that fully utilizes the capabilities of a card, like a PPU, you will buy it if you have the cash (or credit). In the past, certain apps pushed me into buying the next cool card, like Quake and the original 3dfx card. I payed $200 for the original 3dfx 3d card with 4MB of memory, and at the time, I loved it. I made the mistake a while back of spending $299 on a Radeon 9800 Pro in anticipation of a game called Half Life 2. One year later, it was released, and the cards were $199. I did enjoy playing Mafia on the Radeon though, in the interim. I have learned now to stay away from cutting edge. Wait until an application (game) comes along that forces you to upgrade. My best rig is still a P2400 with a Radeon 9800 Pro. Works fine for the games I like: Farcry, Mafia, HL2.
I am not leaping again until I have to.

slapnutz

09-06-2005, 10:01 PM

The thing is it was a natural evolution for gfx cards to become dedicated h/w....just like the sound card.... BUT ....i still dont believe that a PPU is needed at this current timeline in PC history.

Whats next? an AI card, a Geometry card, a renderer card, a Blue Screen of Death recovery card???

I have a strong feeling that the ONLY reason AGEIA bought out MEGON is because they know for a FACT that the effecient programming in MEGON will make dedicated PPUs seem pointless. MEGON would basically reproduce in Software what AGEIA are pimping in Hardware.... its a big money game.

You think PPUs are necessary?? In the next 3 years, show me a PC game that has more advanced physics than a similar PS3 or Xbox360 title. Dont bet on it.

Emultra

09-06-2005, 10:09 PM

slapnutz said:
Blue Screen of Death recovery card???

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

bobk

09-06-2005, 10:34 PM

slapnutz said:
The thing is it was a natural evolution for gfx cards to become dedicated h/w....just like the sound card.... BUT ....i still dont believe that a PPU is needed at this current timeline in PC history.

Whats next? an AI card, a Geometry card, a renderer card, a Blue Screen of Death recovery card???

I have a strong feeling that the ONLY reason AGEIA bought out MEGON is because they know for a FACT that the effecient programming in MEGON will make dedicated PPUs seem pointless. MEGON would basically reproduce in Software what AGEIA are pimping in Hardware.... its a big money game.

You think PPUs are necessary?? In the next 3 years, show me a PC game that has more advanced physics than a similar PS3 or Xbox360 title. Dont bet on it.

Slapnutz,

Hardware solutions to software problems most often outperform the software solutions. That is why we have pixel shaders on video cards today. Ultimately, having everthing on one chip, pixel shaders, collision detection, physics etc, it is all part of the natural progression. We all know what we want, right? Fly through space into a planets atmosphere, see the flames from the heat caused by the atmosphere heating up our shields, then land on the planet, and walk up to a building and blow away a support column and watch the building fall down realistically, in real time. This will not be done in software on an Athlon 6000+. This will require"special" hardware.

Tedski

09-07-2005, 07:23 PM

I seriously doubt that PPUs are ever going to be 'necessary'. While they may well be useful, and possibly will offer better performance, necessary to me is unlikely. The power of the CPU is still going to increase drastically over the same timescale that the PPUs will emerge, pretty much immediately lessening the PPUs impact, due to being able to handle more stuff anyway.

Combat Chuck

09-07-2005, 07:44 PM

Personally, I'd much rather see a game use a dual core's second chip for physics processing rather than worry about a PPU. In the near future, quite a few more people will have dual core processors, while PPUs will become another gamer's accessory, much like videocards have become.

bobk

09-07-2005, 08:29 PM

Tedski said:
I seriously doubt that PPUs are ever going to be 'necessary'. While they may well be useful, and possibly will offer better performance, necessary to me is unlikely. The power of the CPU is still going to increase drastically over the same timescale that the PPUs will emerge, pretty much immediately lessening the PPUs impact, due to being able to handle more stuff anyway.

I am not sure how PPU's are utilized in a game, but it seems to me that if you could do every gaming function with optimised hardware, the "Holy Grails" of gaming may start to become a reality.
Imagine a castle made brick by brick, and when you knock out one brick, all other bricks react accordingly. Do you want to see that? I know I do!

hell-angel

09-08-2005, 01:31 AM

Tedski said:
I seriously doubt that PPUs are ever going to be 'necessary'. While they may well be useful, and possibly will offer better performance, necessary to me is unlikely. The power of the CPU is still going to increase drastically over the same timescale that the PPUs will emerge, pretty much immediately lessening the PPUs impact, due to being able to handle more stuff anyway.

well, I think you are wrong here because (for example)) modern day high end CPU's can cover about 60 boulders to run down a hill with realistic physics. The PPU can cover about 40,000 boulders. While 40,000 might be a bit much, even if you use 6000 for an avalanche it's still much more then what a CPU can handle. So that's why they are 'necessary'. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tedski

09-08-2005, 03:34 AM

Perhaps it needs to be borne in mind also that the instruction sets for CPUs are also being constantly revised. No doubt PPUs will be available with all sorts of 'can-do' features, another aspect of which for me would be finding coders who are going to utilise those features.

hell-angel

09-08-2005, 04:04 AM

Tedski said:
Perhaps it needs to be borne in mind also that the instruction sets for CPUs are also being constantly revised. No doubt PPUs will be available with all sorts of 'can-do' features, another aspect of which for me would be finding coders who are going to utilise those features.

That is true, but a CPU will never contain an entire physics engine, and that is what the PPU will have. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bobk

09-11-2005, 01:46 PM

Illusion Softworks, the creators of Mafia, have licensed the Meqon physics engine.

Mafia is one of my favorites.

Tang Lung

09-11-2005, 02:02 PM

I saw all of AGEIA's demos..it sucked, especially the plane one. How the hell could 10 thousand ton bomb be sent into the air and bounce..thats right..BOUNCE! off a metal railing. All of Meqons stuff was great, the whole setup of it seemed fun and open too.

hell-angel

09-12-2005, 01:25 AM

Verys simple, because it was a dummy bomb. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Seriously, the demo was to show of how capable the physic chip is, and I doubt that what was seen in the demo could be done on CPU and still running at those high speeds. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It may not look as impressive to you but I bet that most of those things can not be handled by Meqon at those speeds. Especially the liquid stuff was brilliant. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Suppressor

09-12-2005, 04:17 AM

Maybe the development of DNF takes so long, that Mequon Physics will be outdated...

Asmodeusz

09-14-2005, 08:58 AM

I would like to see a ATI bought AGEIA news. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

hell-angel

09-15-2005, 01:39 AM

Suppressor said:
Maybe the development of DNF takes so long, that Mequon Physics will be outdated...

Most unlikely, since most games nowadays don't use that many high physics stuff and DNF seems to use it (a lot of breakable stuff) I doubt it will be outdated. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thriller

10-18-2005, 12:54 PM

Micki! said:

HairBall said:

Little Conqueror said:

HairBall said:
trolling, man just saying my point off view. This game has "allomst" been complete for "4" years. And now there "will be new updates". NO game has taken this long!

Um, hello? Ever hear of Team Fortress 2? Nobody ever jumps on Valve for this mysterious piece of vaporware, but it's been supposedly "in development" for almost as long as DNF.

but valve never did say: its coming out in "1998,1999,2000,2001".....

That's not really true...
Valve said that HL2 would come out in September 2001... That changed tomid 2002 (Not really sure if it was 2002 though) and several months ... It didn't came out in 2003, even though, they said it would surely be done before...

That's about the truth i remember... Don't you usually research for such results before coming with such statements..?!

Uhm, they where talking about TF2, not HL2. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Yeah, TF2 has pretty much gone the same way as DNF.

Kristian Joensen

10-18-2005, 01:01 PM

I guess for exactly the same reasons.

hell-angel

10-19-2005, 01:32 AM

Kristian Joensen said:
I guess for exactly the same reasons.

And that are not bad reasons, but they are annoying to the fans. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Micki!

10-19-2005, 04:14 AM

Thriller said:

Micki! said:

HairBall said:

Little Conqueror said:

HairBall said:
trolling, man just saying my point off view. This game has "allomst" been complete for "4" years. And now there "will be new updates". NO game has taken this long!

Um, hello? Ever hear of Team Fortress 2? Nobody ever jumps on Valve for this mysterious piece of vaporware, but it's been supposedly "in development" for almost as long as DNF.

but valve never did say: its coming out in "1998,1999,2000,2001".....

That's not really true...
Valve said that HL2 would come out in September 2001... That changed tomid 2002 (Not really sure if it was 2002 though) and several months ... It didn't came out in 2003, even though, they said it would surely be done before...

That's about the truth i remember... Don't you usually research for such results before coming with such statements..?!

Uhm, they where talking about TF2, not HL2. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Yeah, TF2 has pretty much gone the same way as DNF.

That's a VERY old quote there..! That was cleared a long time ago..! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

But yes, i must've confused TF2 with HL2..! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

Kalki

10-22-2005, 05:12 AM

Does Meqon still deliver or help work on new features or have future updates been cut off with only technical support on offer? There's no integration of Ageia into DNF, is there?

The subject of Ageia updates came up in the level-design thread, so I ask.

naddie

06-20-2006, 02:09 PM

Remember those dedicated MPEG-II decoder cards? :)

Talos

06-20-2006, 02:17 PM

yeah i got one of those and it rocks ;)

Drewcifer

06-20-2006, 02:29 PM

Hey, remember that thread on the DNF board that died in October of last year?

North duker

06-20-2006, 02:52 PM

Yeah, I'm sure both you guys at 3DR and us, the fans, want to avoid any more delays, if possible... Agree with you, no more delaying this game. Almost 10 years in development should be enough. And what’s wrong with Meqon?

DavoX

06-20-2006, 07:47 PM

Talk about reviving dead threads.

ishak540m

06-20-2006, 10:13 PM

Damn it, Ageia is privately owned. Greedy bastards.

Kristian Joensen

06-21-2006, 06:04 AM

Agree with you, no more delaying this game. Almost 10 years in development should be enough. And what’s wrong with Meqon?

Nothing that is why they are still using it.

Zizz

06-21-2006, 06:41 AM

You guys have any idea what happened with the cool real time physics demos? it says meqon is now ageia property and the page is no longer available. But i want the damn demos :D

peoplessi

06-21-2006, 04:21 PM

Havok uses better approach, GPU and CPU handle the physics calculation. And when this is refined even more in upcoming GPU's it will be more competitive than AGEIA's add-PPUcard based solution. I see no future in PPU cards, at least not in it's current form and price. AGEIA seems to buy competition off and sell something that isn't there yet.

FireFly

06-21-2006, 04:41 PM

The solution Havok has created only allows for low-precision, non-gameplay critical physical interaction, and collisions are still resolved on the CPU.

SyntaxN

06-21-2006, 05:35 PM

You guys have any idea what happened with the cool real time physics demos? it says meqon is now ageia property and the page is no longer available. But i want the damn demos :D
There you go: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UK79VM3T :)

Zizz

06-22-2006, 04:17 AM

hahA that's great excactly what i needed! Thanks alot mate! :)

peoplessi

06-22-2006, 10:37 AM

The solution Havok has created only allows for low-precision, non-gameplay critical physical interaction, and collisions are still resolved on the CPU.

This solution could be refined to a more refined level, and as I said CPU has it part in this too. But its all good if you can balance the load with CPU and GPU.

the true duke

06-23-2006, 06:45 PM

I'm not very knowledgable, as I'm just now getting into serious programming. However, it would seem to me that 3DR already has the Meqon tech.

me, im one of those classic gamers, you know people who dont know or care who made the game or who publishes them i just play and decide if its good, if i truly liked the game and i mean really like it i buy a second box and store it away as a collectable.

im not one of todays weird gamers where they endovle the game and know everything and person who made it, also start fan clubs and online societies where they talk about the game and make there own little games for themselfs.

i dont program or anything like that but i do respect people who make games and know that its challenging at times.

but dont worry, they'll get more people. they always do.