Aftermath for $12.95

[Gryph]

Atleast that's what Gabe Newell told Chris Remo of Shacknews.
http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2005/091505_valvehdr_1.x

Aftermath

Aftermath will be the first big test of that philosophy. The game will ship over Steam this year, most likely in November, and will have an incredibly reasonable purchase price of $12.95. Valve hopes to analyze customer feedback (of which there is always plenty, they note) and incorporate that feedback into their design decisions in the next piece of episodic content, which will clearly come out much sooner than Another Half-Life Game would.

Newell also revealed that, for those who were curious, the voice at the end of the end of the Aftermath trailer is in fact that of the G-Man. No further details were divulged.



All I can is \o/!! That is a great price.

[Otto von Keisinger]

I had heard $20 before, but this price is much more palatable. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Hudson]

For that much, hell yeah http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[avatar_58]

What about retail? I bet the price is higher...

[Hudson]

I'd just get it through steam if I have to. Would be a nice experiment to see how well it works if SiN Episodes doesn't make it to retail.

[Morbid]

That is a great price indeed, and money goes direct to the developers as it should... greedy publishers, distributors, stores and filthy salesmen who overprice games can finally kiss my @ss! As for the box/cases fetishists all they have to do (Valve, Ritual etc.) is to find a (cheap) way to send them a nice shiny manual of their games. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dopefish.gif

[Cerberus_e]

I wonder how much it will be retail...
I also wonder how much of these episodes there will be, if there are 5 then it costs more than a normal game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[FireFly]

I don't see the problem with that.

[Orochi Avlis]

Cerberus_e said:
I wonder how much it will be retail...
I also wonder how much of these episodes there will be, if there are 5 then it costs more than a normal game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif


You don't have to buy them all, you know.

[EyeZ]

you do if you want to play them

[Beelze]

Since we don't really know how long these episodes will be, or what new things they'll include, I think it's too early to complain about (or praise) the price. Don't be so quick to assume that it'll end up being nothing but an overpriced "normal" product.

[Mountain Man]

Aftermath for $12.95?

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/woot.gif

'Nuff said.

[Cerberus_e]

FireFly said:
I don't see the problem with that.



didn't valve say it would be SHORT episodes?
anyway, suppose they are 1/5 length of a normal game, then 5 expansion = full game, but costs more


Orochi Avlis said:

Cerberus_e said:
I wonder how much it will be retail...
I also wonder how much of these episodes there will be, if there are 5 then it costs more than a normal game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif


You don't have to buy them all, you know.



I do if I want them http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
but that doesn't matter, if aftermath is only 1/5 then it's still not long enough to be worth its price.

and even if aftermath is longer than 1/5, then you can already know it will cost a lot more retail, for example, if it costs 20 euros, 5 episodes = 100 euros http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

you can argue about "don't buy it retail, then!" but that doesn't take away the fact that episodes are stilla huge disadvantage

[Beelze]

Cerberus_e said:

FireFly said:
I don't see the problem with that.



didn't valve say it would be SHORT episodes?
anyway, suppose they are 1/5 length of a normal game, then 5 expansion = full game, but costs more


Stop supposing and wait for the official answer, then.

[Opus131]

^ What he said

[seregrail7]

Cerberus_e said:
I wonder how much it will be retail...
I also wonder how much of these episodes there will be, if there are 5 then it costs more than a normal game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif


Valve said it would be roughly half the length of HL2. So you'd be getting more bang for your buck.

[Cerberus_e]

Beelze said:

Cerberus_e said:

FireFly said:
I don't see the problem with that.



didn't valve say it would be SHORT episodes?
anyway, suppose they are 1/5 length of a normal game, then 5 expansion = full game, but costs more


Stop supposing and wait for the official answer, then.



Opus131 said:
^ What he said



I will never understand guys like you two... why can't one be worried?

[Mountain Man]

Cerberus_e said:
I will never understand guys like you two... why can't one be worried?


Because the thing you're worrying about may never come to pass, and if it does, worrying about it isn't going to change anything, so it's wasted energy either way.

[Cerberus_e]

Mountain Man said:

Cerberus_e said:
I will never understand guys like you two... why can't one be worried?


Because the thing you're worrying about may never come to pass, and if it does, worrying about isn't going to change anything, so it's wasted energy either way.



you can't control the feeling of worryness. can you?
EVERYONE that is worrying about something has a chance the thing they don't want to happen (worrying about) may never come to pass.

[FireFly]

Cerberus_e said:
I will never understand guys like you two... why can't one be worried?


Because it's pointless until we know more. In this case though, Valve said Aftermath would be a third of HL2. Assuming HL2 was about 18 hours for most people then that's 6 hours a pop, which is quite reasonable.

"As an expansion pack, Aftermath is deliberately shorter in length -- taking approximately a third of the gaming time that HL2 did according to PC Action Deutschland."

http://www.hlfallout.net/viewnews.php/7866/

[Cerberus_e]

read my above post, or do you perform Yoga acts to control your uncontrollable feelings like worrying and love? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Opus131]

Cerberus_e said:
you can't control the feeling of worryness. can you?




Yes, i can.

No yoga techniques necessary...

[Mountain Man]

Cerberus_e said:
you can't control the feeling of worryness. can you?


Actually, you can, though it sometimes takes discipline. For instance, if my wife is out later than I had expected, it might be natural to start to worry that something bad has happened, but I can consciously choose not to worry and instead concern myself with more productive matters, like making sure the house is straightened up before she does come home!

[FireFly]

Yes, you have control over your thoughts. Worrying is just a thought pattern you choose to repeat.

[Cerberus_e]

Mountain Man said:

Cerberus_e said:
you can't control the feeling of worryness. can you?


Actually, you can, though it sometimes takes discipline. For instance, if my wife is out later than I had expected, it might be natural to start to worry that something bad has happened, but I can consciously choose not to worry and instead concern myself with more productive matters, like making sure the house is straightened up before she does come home!



a fear can all of a sudden be annulled by a bigger fear.
your fear of your wife being angry because the house is not straightened up is worse than the fear of something that may have happened. that explains it all http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

you guys may be able to control the worrying, but I can't, I'm a consumer of Valve after all, and I'm still worried http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mountain Man]

Cerberus_e said:
your fear of your wife being angry because the house is not straightened up is worse than the fear of something that may have happened. that explains it all http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Touché.

[Morbid]

50€ = 5/5 of full game

12,95$ = 10,60€ = 1/5 of full game

so in fact (1/3 of the full lenght) you pay much less than that. Plus the money goes directly to the developer. 40% of the price you pay in retail goes to the publisher, 30% to the store, 15% taxes, 4% to the distributor and only 11% to the developers...

[Cerberus_e]

I'd rather support EA than those steam nazis, I'm definitely going to buy it retail (the biggest reason is HAVING the game, not something virtual that can be lost as soon as the steam servers die, escept if I burn it myself)

[Dave-ros]

Wish I could work up your fear, Cerb, but unfortunately I don't have the willpower: $13 US sounds good to me, since that'll be what, £8 GB? And since HL2 generally retails for £25-30, that seems fair for a third of the length.

Unless they have different prices for different countries, which would be good for countries whose currency is weak compared to the dollar, but bad for us if they decide to exploit the UK the same way pharmaceutical companies do, i.e. jacking up the price 'cos we can't do a damn thing about it.

Ah, there you go, I'm getting worried over something that might not come to pass! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Cerberus_e]

yes but 13 dollars is steam, calculate how much it will be retail... I guess 30 euros.

[Dave-ros]

With retail the price certainly isn't fixed, even within a country - you can get it discounted, cheaply through mail order, even second-hand! I reckon you'd find it for more like €20-25 with a bit of research... but no, I won't put money on that http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I was all ready to say I'd download it from Steam, but actually I'll only do that if I can definitely burn it onto DVD as a backup (i.e. any bugs ironed out)!

[FireFly]

Why not try the backup feature out for yourself?

[Dave-ros]

Because I haven't bought Aftermath yet http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I just meant I'd make sure there were no widespread problems with Aftermath's backup system, as there apparently were with the main one (I have the main game as a hard copy so no issues thus far). I wouldn't be happy if I spent ages downloading it and then lost it (e.g. hard drive crash), and it turned out the backup didn't work after all! But yeah, worry about something that might not happen again http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[kylemf88]

Wow... Thats awsome. I'm was fine with it being 20 bucks but 12 is kick ass!

[Cerberus_e]

and that's not a bad thing!
people with the most problems are the ones that never worry http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Opus131]

Cerberus_e said:
I'd rather support EA than those steam nazis, I'm definitely going to buy it retail (the biggest reason is HAVING the game, not something virtual that can be lost as soon as the steam servers die, escept if I burn it myself)



I always wondered if people cared more about having a physical token then the media itself.

I even met a guy once who collected CDs but never listened to all of them. He had more then 5.000...

[Cerberus_e]

I care more about the product itself.
in fact, physical product is not something I kick on, but I prefer a physical one over a steam virtual one for this expansion.
I just feel more safe with a physical copy http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
if it wasn't for the authentication, I'd buy it on line.

[FireFly]

You'll need to authenticate whether you buy a store or a Steam copy.

[Water12356]

Mountain Man said:
Aftermath for $12.95?

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/woot.gif

'Nuff said.

[Opus131]

Cerberus_e said:
I care more about the product itself.
in fact, physical product is not something I kick on, but I prefer a physical one over a steam virtual one for this expansion.
I just feel more safe with a physical copy http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
if it wasn't for the authentication, I'd buy it on line.



You would have to authenticate in either case.

With the retail version all you are doing is pay EA to put the steam version of game on a cd rather then do it yourself...

[Cerberus_e]

I know you also get authentication on the DVD from retail, but having a physical copy makes me feel more safe for reasons I won't go into, or else we would be discussing meteors hitting Valve HQ instead of aftermath's price on steam and retail http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Opus131]

Cerberus_e said:
I know you also get authentication on the DVD from retail, but having a physical copy makes me feel more safe for reasons I won't go into, or else we would be discussing meteors hitting Valve HQ instead of aftermath's price on steam and retail http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827131352)

[Cerberus_e]

that costs more than the retail game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I don't have a DVD burner, only CD

[seregrail7]

Then back it up onto cds.

[Drazula]

It's really not too much risk. If Aftermath is too short, you just don't purchase the rest of the episodes.

For me the deal-breaker isn't the price, it's Steam.

[Otto von Keisinger]

Knowing you, you'll probably find a way. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Cerberus_e]

seregrail7 said:
Then back it up onto cds.



can you back up something bigger than 700 mb on CD's with steam?
I still feel more safe with a physical copy.
for example, those CD-rs tend to be damaged after a while, and much faster than music CDs and game CDs.
for example: outlaws (1997) still works, but a CDr I burned last year doesn't work anymore.
also, I feel that a retail copy is easier to patch once steam doesn't exist anymore, because a patch would be built faster for retail copies, since they ALL have the same version.

[Drazula]

The faster you burn, the thinner the laser mark, the more likely the CD will fail. Burn at slower speeds if you want it to last. Anyone who burns faster than 16x is throwing away their data.

[Cerberus_e]

at what speed do publishers burn CDs?

[Dave-ros]

Cerberus_e said:
at what speed do publishers burn CDs?


45 rpm http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

What Drazula said is interesting, though... I'll bear it in mind for future burning operations http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/thumbsup.gif

[Sir Lemonhead]

Drazula said:
The faster you burn, the thinner the laser mark, the more likely the CD will fail. Burn at slower speeds if you want it to last. Anyone who burns faster than 16x is throwing away their data.



Yeah I hate that..having a super fast burner and always having to burn at 12x or slower http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[seregrail7]

Cerberus_e said:
can you back up something bigger than 700 mb on CD's with steam?


Yeah, Steam gives you the option when you're making a back up, and splits it up into seperate files.

[Cerberus_e]

so publishers are throwing data away http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Dave-ros]

No, 45 rpm was how fast gramophone records used to turn http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I'm sure with publishers it'll be a matter of balancing the number of CD-burners with how fast they want each one to burn, in order to make the maximum number of copies, each as reliable as possible, for the minimum amount of money and time. I'm sure Drazula will come up with an equation for it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Kristian Joensen]

Publishers don't burn cd's at all they print them.

[Opus131]

Here's an idea : why don't you but the steam version now then the boxed version years from now when it's like 5 bucks or something ? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Malgon]

I keep hearing about this backup feature, but I have yet to check it out. Any info so I could checkup and see how it works.

On topic the pricing sounds reasonable to me, but will it come in a boxerd version? I prefer buying off the shelf.

Cheers http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mountain Man]

Malgon said:
I keep hearing about this backup feature, but I have yet to check it out. Any info so I could checkup and see how it works.


In Steam, right-click in your games list then select "Back-up data" (or something like that). The rest is self-explanatory.

[Mountain Man]

Drazula said:
For me the deal-breaker isn't the price, it's Steam.


Boo hoo.

[Mountain Man]

Cerberus_e said:
at what speed do publishers burn CDs?


They don't. Commercial CDs are actually manufactured, not burned one at a time.

[Malgon]

Cheers MM, I'll give it a shot. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Otto von Keisinger]

Nevermind. I forgot I was back a page. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

[Daveman]

Learn to NOT triple-post please. The edit button is your friend. As for the price: win. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/woot.gif

[Cerberus_e]

Otto von Keisinger said:
Nevermind. I forgot I was back a page. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif



it was a reply to me, probably nothing good http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I dislike it when people reply to me, but all I see is: "EDIT: nevermind", it happens a lot http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif


Opus131 said:
Here's an idea : why don't you but the steam version now then the boxed version years from now when it's like 5 bucks or something ? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



that's actually a good idea! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
but there is another problem: I have this stupid limit on how much I can download in a month. but I can make an exception and download a bit less that month http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
btw: I can reinstall HL2 WITHOUT having to download it, right? (I have bought it retail), or don't you need to have HL2 installed for aftermath?

[seregrail7]

Yeah, you can just install it from the disk.

[Beelze]

Cerberus_e said:

Otto von Keisinger said:
Nevermind. I forgot I was back a page. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif



it was a reply to me, probably nothing good http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I dislike it when people reply to me, but all I see is: "EDIT: nevermind", it happens a lot http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif


Usually, I never even get that far. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Cerberus_e]

what far?

[Beelze]

EDIT: Nevermind. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[FireFly]

Now edit that post Beelze!

[Cerberus_e]

aaarghhh you guys are terrible http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Mountain Man]

Daveman said:
Learn to NOT triple-post please. The edit button is your friend. As for the price: win. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/woot.gif


I was posting responses to three different people about three unrelated topics, so each response was given its own post.

[Daveman]

Again, the edit button is your friend. Copying and pasting is one of the many wonders of the computer age.

[Beelze]

MM posting that way benefits those who use the threaded view.

[Cerberus_e]

Beelze said:
MM posting that way benefits those who use the threaded view.



= no one http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I've never seen anyone using threaded view in who's on line

[Kristian Joensen]

I have but that doesn't make any sense what so ever.

[Sailboat]

Opus131 said:
You would have to authenticate in either case.

With the retail version all you are doing is pay EA to put the steam version of game on a cd rather then do it yourself...


Exactly.
Even if you want to argue that you want the box, manual and CD with all the cool artwork, you can do that yourself.
I did this with my copy of HL2 I bought through Steam. Made a DVD case cover and CD cover myself in Photoshop, backed up HL2 onto a DVD and voila, my retail package.

[Cerberus_e]

it's not only that

[Dave-ros]

Just to check, have you tried reinstalling from that disc? Not necessarily on the same computer, but perhaps on another you have access to (without giving anyone your Steam details of course http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif).

[Mountain Man]

Daveman said:
Again, the edit button is your friend. Copying and pasting is one of the many wonders of the computer age.


No, if I'm posting to three different people about three different topics, I'll give one its own post. Personally, I find it much easier to find a response when its in its own post rather than buried in the middle of a series of unrelated responses, and I assume other people are the same way.

[Draco]

I assume other people are the same way.




Nope, people can read multi-topic posts just fine, thus the whole "calling you on making a triple post" thing.

Don't even try to use the "threaded" excuse. Like someone else said, I recall a poll Joe made about the forum system, and pretty much nobody used threaded.



I always wondered if people cared more about having a physical token then the media itself.




I want the media on a physical token. The digital aspects of my life have consistently proved they are unable to be trusted to be the exclusive handler of my content.

As for the price... I'm tempted to be happy, but the fact that 13 bucks is what they are asking means that there will be little content to the thing. Here's hoping that the 13 buck price remains the same from the proper, Non-steam outlets as well.

[Opus131]

Draco said:
Here's hoping that the 13 buck price remains the same from the proper, Non-steam outlets as well.



Well, if i remember correctly, Half Life 2 steam was supposed to be cheaper due the reduced production fees compared to the retail version, but the idea never went through as Vivendi didn't allow for a price drop which would have resulted in serious competition between the steam version of the game and retail (yes yes, i'm aware this worked to Valve's advantage).

Reguardless, they may actually carry their old plan now that they are calling all the shots and release the steam version with a price they deem reasonable whereas EA is left on their own to decide how much they want to over-charge to cover production costs.

Just an observation...

[Opus131]

Draco said:
I want the media on a physical token. The digital aspects of my life have consistently proved they are unable to be trusted to be the exclusive handler of my content.




Perhaps, but i'd rather live throught the inconvience (read : i'm able to push aside my gigantic, infantile ego and actually commit a minor sacrifice) in order to fundle the death of publishers as we know them and further the liberation of developers...

[seregrail7]

Mountain Man said:

Daveman said:
Again, the edit button is your friend. Copying and pasting is one of the many wonders of the computer age.


No, if I'm posting to three different people about three different topics, I'll give one its own post. Personally, I find it much easier to find a response when its in its own post rather than buried in the middle of a series of unrelated responses, and I assume other people are the same way.


I'm the same way.

[Cerberus_e]

Opus131 said:

Draco said:
I want the media on a physical token. The digital aspects of my life have consistently proved they are unable to be trusted to be the exclusive handler of my content.




Perhaps, but i'd rather live throught the inconvience (read : i'm able to push aside my gigantic, infantile ego and actually commit a minor sacrifice) in order to fundle the death of publishers as we know them and further the liberation of developers...



publishers dying is a bad thing: who will pay new developers then?

[FireFly]

Developers will finance themselves.

[Draco]

i'm able to push aside my gigantic, infantile ego and actually commit a minor sacrifice




This has nothing to do with ego. I perfer my games to be on a physical token. The same people promoting digital games were the ones who promised me that we'd soon have a "paperless office".



in order to fundle the death of publishers as we know them and further the liberation of developers...




Without publishers, there will be no developers. As much as Firefly wishes it, most developers cannot finance themselves. This should be obvious, as it was Valve - a company with considerable industry pull - that pulled off a Steam-like service.

If you demand that developers fiance themselves, you'll be in the same boat as you are now: large, monolithic developers making and publishing games, and indie game makers with no ability to make or sell games.

That is, of course, until one of those monolithic game companies realizes that publishing is more profitable can development, and quits making games. Then you're right back in the thick of things.

[Cerberus_e]

FireFly said:
Developers will finance themselves.



great! so next year (when I'm 18 and need to go to high school or university) I choose game design, and after graduating univeristy I will pay myself! genius.

[Kristian Joensen]

Opus131 said:
Reguardless, they may actually carry their old plan now that they are calling all the shots and release the steam version with a price they deem reasonable whereas EA is left on their own to decide how much they want to over-charge to cover production costs.




Well I kinda agree with you, but I don't think they will let EA just set the price as they wish, on the contrary I think they probaply have approval rigths over the retail price, so that EA won't sell it for something like 10.95$ retail inorder to compete with the online version. COG's as I understand it are usualy around 3$/unit so that they could do that and still make a profit.

Cerberus, mods are usually free also to make, if you(and a team) where to take the Q3A source upgrade the engine to be fully competitive and write a standalone mod(without any of Id's art assets) around it wich actually was a small game, you could legaly sell it, perhaps though something like Steam.

Also, Firefly is correct, developers as a group can to a certain extent fund themselves. I don't know if you guys realise this but it was actually 3D Realms who funded Max Payne and who is funding Prey. That is one model for funding video games.

Also video games can potentially be funded by companies whose sole function is the funding nothing else, except perhaps business advice.

[Duoae]

Kristian Joensen said:
Also, Firefly is correct, developers as a group can to a certain extent fund themselves. I don't know if you guys realise this but it was actually 3D Realms who funded Max Payne and who is funding Prey. That is one model for funding video games.




LOL. While technically true that 3DR fund those projects. Lack of publishers for income would mean monolithic developers picking and chosing projects of their own choice and teams of their own making. It would be the same situation. Draco was right. Imagine the only ways of funding your game was:

3DR,
Valve,
id,
Sony,
Nintendo,
Microsoft,
Sega.

Anyone else know of any companies that do and could afford to finance not only their own but parallel projects that potentially show no or little return? Plus, these companies would have (depending on their respective philosophies) more or less direct control of the projects. Basically publishers, especially using online delivery systems.



Also video games can potentially be funded by companies whose sole function is the funding nothing else, except perhaps business advice.




I laugh at your naivety. Sure you can get grants, but no company or regional investment fund will support the cost of a full game unless there is financial return. And if they did this they would want creative input to "assure" the return of their investment.
Congratulations, you've just invented publishers...

[FireFly]

Cerberus_e said:

FireFly said:
Developers will finance themselves.



great! so next year (when I'm 18 and need to go to high school or university) I choose game design, and after graduating univeristy I will pay myself! genius.


And what do you think you're going to do under the current system? Go to a publisher and say "hey, I've got this cool game idea - will you give me $200,000"?

No, you need to put up the initial outlay, assemble the team, spend months building a prototype that can be shown to publishers and then hope they take you seriously. In fact what you're more likely to do in both cases is join an existing team.


Draco said:
Without publishers, there will be no developers. As much as Firefly wishes it, most developers cannot finance themselves. This should be obvious, as it was Valve - a company with considerable industry pull - that pulled off a Steam-like service.


That's the current situation with a publisher cantered model, in which developers are themselves forced to pay back development costs while at the same time being given a tiny share of a game's profits.

I'm talking about a situation where the model changes, and publishers shrink or are killed off because of it. This isn't the hypothetical situation where one day all the publishers just die out for no explicable reason, but where their death is due to the business model that allows developers to cut out publishers and distribute online. So if publishers really do die out then it will be because there are so many independents.

[Kristian Joensen]

Duoae, who said anything about lack of financial return ?

Also you forgot to comment on the other method I mentioned.

[Duoae]

You're talking about this?



Cerberus, mods are usually free also to make, if you(and a team) where to take the Q3A source upgrade the engine to be fully competitive and write a standalone mod(without any of Id's art assets) around it wich actually was a small game, you could legaly sell it, perhaps though something like Steam.




There's no funding involved with this approach. It requires the least amount of money and risk and will give whoever publishes it (eg. steam) free money as well as the people who made the mod. I suppose that this is the most useful approach for starting up a new enterprise.

The only problem is that you don't have a development "house".... or dedicated staff. Having random people from around the world works well for mods, but i'm not sure about the effects of distributed development on a full-blown game..... it's often easier to coordinate things if everyone is together and in one place as opposed to people coming and going as they wish. The translation from successful mod / mini-game to a development team might not work since the profits raised might never be enough to reinvest in a proper company due to people taking their share.

[edit]



Duoae, who said anything about lack of financial return ?




My point was that any company that invested that much money would be expecting financial return... and as such would wield power over the project. Hence basically the same situation as publishers have on 3rd party developers.

[Mountain Man]

Draco said:
Without publishers, there will be no developers. As much as Firefly wishes it, most developers cannot finance themselves. This should be obvious, as it was Valve - a company with considerable industry pull - that pulled off a Steam-like service.


What you say is true, but already Steam's publisherless model is starting to pay off. First of all, you have the next chapter of a AAA game selling for less than most budget titles thanks to the reduced overhead of electronic distribution, and in the coming months Steam will begin offering titles that would have never have been picked up by a publisher under the current paradigm, games like Rag Doll Kung Fu (http://personal.lionhead.com/mhealey/) (created by one guy in his spare time) and SiN Episodes (http://www.ritualistic.com/games.php/sineps).

So while it took somebody of Valve's caliber to make a clean break from publishers, now that the trail has been blazed, the old paradigm will inevitably fade.

[Kristian Joensen]

Yes Duoae, I was talking about that. Once the project started making money you could hire some or all of the people that have been working on it and gather them in one place and then set up a new developer with the money from this game.

My whole point with this is that the claim that there couldn't be developers without publishers is false. They could be there but probaply not as many, well yet anyway.

The problem with publishers is the royalty/advance model, their creative infuence when they infact haven got a lue about what makes a great game and the fact that they almost aways own the IP.

These problems can all be solved with alternative funding sources, the creative influence is only a problem becuase publishers aren't run by gamers but by so called "beancounters" they haven't got any creative abilities, this can be provided by companies like 3D Realms, then the outside creative influence isn't a problem.

Besides, 3D Realms has given their 3rd party developers alot of creative freedoms, even if they have extensive legal rights with regards to the creative side of things.

Other companies like say, Id or Epic could follow their lead, I am sure Epic has given Digital Extremes alot of creative freedom.

Mountain man what is that next chapter you are referring to ? Aftermath ?

[Duoae]

I agree with what you are saying, but i don't think there are many companies that aren't ruled by the "beancounters" 3DR included. They wouldn't do anything that is probably going to be a flop. They also keep a hand in the project. I'm pretty sure that 3DR could have (and would have) pulled the Prey project if anything had gone awry during development.

I don't think there are many (if any) of these benign and compassionate corporate entities you seem to think are out there. Hence why anyone who provides sources of money to a project will always wield power and say in said project - creative influence is only a problem when there is more than one source of conditional funding (grants don't count) and this is the case whether it is publisher driven, cooperatively funded or managed/directed like 3DR has done.


Kristian Joensen said:
These problems can all be solved with alternative funding sources, the creative influence is only a problem becuase publishers aren't run by gamers but by so called "beancounters" they haven't got any creative abilities, this can be provided by companies like 3D Realms, then the outside creative influence isn't a problem.

[Kristian Joensen]

First of all 3D Realms isn't run by "beancounters" but by gamers.

Sure 3D Realms would cancel Prey if things went bad enough but that isn't a problem and creative influence is certainly not a problem when it is someone competent who has got the influence.

One thing I forgot to mention wich is a problem with publishers is that they tend to rush things, 3D Realms for instance certainly isn't known for doing that.

Surely you wouldn't want more flops to be released ?

[Duoae]

Who said that beancounters couldn't be gamers?

And another of my points you seem to have missed was that everyone who funds projects won't have the same mentality. Just because 3DR like to make sure projects are finished, it doesn't mean that other's will.....

[FireFly]

Duoae said:
I don't think there are many (if any) of these benign and compassionate corporate entities you seem to think are out there. Hence why anyone who provides sources of money to a project will always wield power and say in said project - creative influence is only a problem when there is more than one source of conditional funding (grants don't count) and this is the case whether it is publisher driven, cooperatively funded or managed/directed like 3DR has done.


Of course, but there are different types of power, different types of influence and control. Do you allow a developer to own or partially own an IP, do you allow them to experiment for themselves, do you set flexible project deadlines, do you provide creative support? These are the things which mark the publisher - developer relationship out from the developer - developer relationship. So it's not the case that they're the same or by substituting one for another you're not achieving anything.

[Kristian Joensen]

Duoae said:
Who said that beancounters couldn't be gamers?



The phrase "beancounter" is usually used as opposed to gamers, the problem is that publishers aren't run by gamers.


Duoae said:
And another of my points you seem to have missed was that everyone who funds projects won't have the same mentality. Just because 3DR like to make sure projects are finished, it doesn't mean that other's will.....



Yes, sure but my point was that it doesn't have to be that way. Remember I said others could follow 3D Realms' lead, they have shown it to be possible.

Firefly has just done a great job of articulating how I feel about this subject.

[Duoae]

Kristian Joensen said:
Yes, sure but my point was that it doesn't have to be that way. Remember I said others could follow 3D Realms' lead, they have shown it to be possible.

Firefly has just done a great job of articulating how I feel about this subject.



Yes, i understand what you guys are saying. I'm just saying that i don't believe that it will happen like that.

To enunciate the old cliché:

You supplant one evil emperor for another.....

It's a possibility... more so IMO than the almost utopian developer's paradise that other people seem to think is around the corner.

Another adage:

Power corrupts....

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mountain Man]

Here's the thing: If publishers go by the way side, we could see a return to the "By gamers for gamers" development model that sparked the PC gaming industry in the mid-80s. Would it really be a bad thing to have your games arrive in the mail in little Ziplock bags as long as the games themselves kicked ass?

[Duoae]

No... though it would be via internet download rather than snail mail http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[FireFly]

Duoae said:
Yes, i understand what you guys are saying. I'm just saying that i don't believe that it will happen like that.

To enunciate the old cliché:

You supplant one evil emperor for another.....

It's a possibility... more so IMO than the almost utopian developer's paradise that other people seem to think is around the corner.

Another adage:

Power corrupts....

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


I'm not sure what the effects of this "corruption" would be. It's in developers (and publishers) best interests to make good games. Cashing in on franchises may initially seem like a good idea, and you may be able to generate a fair amount of money, but your games will have no long term selling potential, so you'll lose out in the long run.

In fact the only way publishers like EA can survive and make huge profits is by relying on specific niche franchises with seemingly permanent fanbases - sports games for instance. And yet, profits are starting to dry up despite these hugely lucrative franchises. Publishers simply aren't effective in the industry they're operating in. They're not effective businessmen. You don't even have to talk about altruism or caring for the gaming industry (although developers invariably do), you just need to understand that we need a better business model.

[laffer]

The most noticable effect of getting rid of publishers is that we get even more annoying copy protection.
Steam started it with requiring that you have an internet connection for single player games.
Telltale is now picking up on that trend and using a "fingerprint" system which gives you a CD-key that will only work on your machine configuration. If you want to use another machine, you'll have to get a new CD-key.

[BioHazard]

FireFly said:

In fact the only way publishers like EA can survive and make huge profits is by relying on specific niche franchises with seemingly permanent fanbases - sports games for instance. And yet, profits are starting to dry up despite these hugely lucrative franchises. Publishers simply aren't effective in the industry they're operating in. They're not effective businessmen. You don't even have to talk about altruism or caring for the gaming industry (although developers invariably do), you just need to understand that we need a better business model.



I don't think EA (or any big publisher) are going anywhere anytime soon. If they can't make as much profit from their old money-spinner franchises they'll just try to buy all the talented small developers and exploit their ip's for all their worth.

[FireFly]

Permadeath said:
I don't think EA (or any big publisher) are going anywhere anytime soon. If they can't make as much profit from their old money-spinner franchises they'll just try to buy all the talented small developers and exploit their ip's for all their worth.


I agree, but obviously they could be doing a lot better for themselves, by helping to create valuable IPs themselves.

[Nessus]

I have a feeling they chopped the game in half and will be anouncing the next episode of HL within weeks of the release of Aftermath.

[Kristian Joensen]

FireFly said:

Permadeath said:
I don't think EA (or any big publisher) are going anywhere anytime soon. If they can't make as much profit from their old money-spinner franchises they'll just try to buy all the talented small developers and exploit their ip's for all their worth.


I agree, but obviously they could be doing a lot better for themselves, by helping to create valuable IPs themselves.



I wish some publisher(s) would see the ligth and produce some game(s) just like 3D Realms did with Max Payne.

They should hire gamers for the creative side of things in such a cooperation form. They would still be the ones funding the games but not through advances.

[Drazula]

Mountain Man said:
Here's the thing: If publishers go by the way side, we could see a return to the "By gamers for gamers" development model that sparked the PC gaming industry in the mid-80s. Would it really be a bad thing to have your games arrive in the mail in little Ziplock bags as long as the games themselves kicked ass?


http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mryuck.gif Those games sucked. If you want games like that, use your cellphone or PDA.

It's already been shown that Developers make lousy publishers. Gathering of Developers flopped. Why? Because developers don't know what sells. They don't know how to mix "critically acclaimed" but less successful games with cookie cutter, popular games. Without publishers, the gaming industry dies.

[laffer]

I remember people complaining that publishers used copy protection on the discs and stuff, but now that developers are using much worse methods (see Valve and Telltale) they think it's completely fine.

[Kristian Joensen]

Drazula said:

Mountain Man said:
Here's the thing: If publishers go by the way side, we could see a return to the "By gamers for gamers" development model that sparked the PC gaming industry in the mid-80s. Would it really be a bad thing to have your games arrive in the mail in little Ziplock bags as long as the games themselves kicked ass?


http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mryuck.gif Those games sucked. If you want games like that, use your cellphone or PDA.

It's already been shown that Developers make lousy publishers. Gathering of Developers flopped. Why? Because developers don't know what sells. They don't know how to mix "critically acclaimed" but less successful games with cookie cutter, popular games. Without publishers, the gaming industry dies.



What you say about Gathering of Developers isn't entirely correct, Scott Miller was opposed to publishing several of the games that they published. Infact developers generaly know what makes a great game much better than publishers.

[Mountain Man]

Drazula said:

Mountain Man said:
Here's the thing: If publishers go by the way side, we could see a return to the "By gamers for gamers" development model that sparked the PC gaming industry in the mid-80s. Would it really be a bad thing to have your games arrive in the mail in little Ziplock bags as long as the games themselves kicked ass?


http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mryuck.gif Those games sucked. If you want games like that, use your cellphone or PDA.


You do realize that's essentially how id distributed many of their early games, including Wolfestien 3D, Doom, and Quake. Duke Nukem 3D was also distributed to some extent using the shareware model.


Without publishers, the gaming industry dies.


Your statement needs some qualification:

Without publishers, the gaming industry as we know it dies.

[Orochi Avlis]

laffer said:
I remember people complaining that publishers used copy protection on the discs and stuff, but now that developers are using much worse methods (see Valve and Telltale) they think it's completely fine.


Worse says you.

The hardware fingerprint thing could use some rework, but Steam makes playing a game more accessible for me due to me not having to put a CD in my PC everytime.

[Mountain Man]

Orochi Avlis said:
The hardware fingerprint thing could use some rework, but Steam makes playing a game more accessible for me due to me not having to put a CD in my PC everytime.


Not to mention the convenience of automatic updates and the ability to easily download and install software. If Steam was just copy protection then I might agree with laffer, but it does offer nice benefits to the customer.

[laffer]

The Telltale method is at least worse, and I don't see it getting any better in the future either.
All games that are protected this way are time bombs, you need to depend on the developer to make a patch in order to make the game work forever.
It's like buying a license to play the game for a certain amount of time.

[Cerberus_e]

I can see in the fututre they may store maps/levels on servers, and let the game download it each time you start the game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mryuck.gif

would be horrible

[Duoae]

Orochi Avlis said:
The hardware fingerprint thing could use some rework, but Steam makes playing a game more accessible for me due to me not having to put a CD in my PC everytime.



To be fair since people make their own no-cd cracks it isn't too hard for developers/publishers to implement this on normal copy-protected games (a funny enough example here is half life 2). They're just stubborn.



It's like buying a license to play the game for a certain amount of time.



Isn't that what we do anyway? I must read an EULA, i think they're probably changed since the last time i read one. I'm pretty sure that if everyone read EULA's then no one would agree to use any software... what with all the freedoms you forfeit....

[laffer]

But with normal games you can play them for as long as you want no matter what the developers/publishers say.

[Orochi Avlis]

laffer said:
The Telltale method is at least worse, and I don't see it getting any better in the future either.



I'm not too keen on the hardware fingerprint thing either, but I'm sure there must be a way tp change it if you need too.

[Duoae]

laffer said:
But with normal games you can play them for as long as you want no matter what the developers/publishers say.



Yeah, they just lacked the methods to implement this kind of thing before. Now they can. Easily.

[Drazula]

Kristian Joensen said:
What you say about Gathering of Developers isn't entirely correct, Scott Miller was opposed to publishing several of the games that they published. Infact developers generaly know what makes a great game much better than publishers.


Totally agree. But a publisher knows which games will SELL better. GREAT Game <> Big Sales Game. All we have to look at is System Shock 2 (great game) and Deer Hunter (big sales game).

I see this scenario play out within the company where I work, with sales butting heads with development. Devs want it "done right" sales wants it done, so they can sell it.


Mountain Man said:
You do realize that's essentially how id distributed many of their early games, including Wolfestien 3D, Doom, and Quake. Duke Nukem 3D was also distributed to some extent using the shareware model.


Yes, and they moved on from that for a reason. The sales model only works for "garage" developers. For every id and Apogee there were 100 creating crap. (One game I remember, I swear, it could not have taken more than an hour to code... and I see "Thanks for your support: $9.95" WTF?)



Your statement needs some qualification:

Without publishers, the gaming industry as we know it dies.


If "as we know it" means "that makes quality games", then I agree. I love new developers and support them fully (who cheered for Serious Sam and Far Cry?). But without guidance, too many create junk.

[Kristian Joensen]

So you are really claiming that Scott Miller can't tell the difference between a game that is likely to sell well and one that is not ?

[Drazula]

As I said, 3DR and id are the exception, not the rule. But even they have only one game formula each, they know that works for sure. id with the massive tech, sci-fi, run and gun. 3DR with the cliche'd main character.

I think if they step outside those boundaries, they are as lost as any other developer.

[Kristian Joensen]

Tommy is a cliche ?

Also I wasn't thinking about 3DR alone, but 3DR, Epic, Id and Valve and perhaps a select few others and maybe an already established Publisher could found a publishing joint venture.

[Kristian Joensen]

Also both Id, Epic and 3DR have a past wich shows adaptability with regards to genres and changes in the industry. Also the aforementioned publisher could also function as a producer of the games just like 3D Realms with Max Payne and Prey and could maybe even in certain cases function as a co-developer of some of the games, ala the relationship between Epic and Digital Extremes.

[Drazula]

Kristian Joensen said:
Tommy is a cliche ?


Tommy Hawk the Cherokee Indian is not a cliche? Please tell me you are joking.


Also I wasn't thinking about 3DR alone, but 3DR, Epic, Id and Valve and perhaps a select few others and maybe an already established Publisher could found a publishing joint venture.


Sure but to want end? To make more sequels to games that have already been established by previous publishing methods? To work, a new method of publishing would need to show a better result for the gamer. G.O.D. couldn't do that. And stepping back to "baggy games" or the shareware paradigm certainly won't do it either.

BTW, you did include a publisher. So you must agree that they are necessary.

[Kristian Joensen]

I simply said maybe, I think that is entirely optional and not at all required. As for sequels versus new IP's, I think such a publisher should have a division whos only task should be the development of new IP's, a IP factory of sorts and here I am talking about the development of new IP's not the games behind them, that should be outsourced to the owners of the publishers and other developers.

When dealing with companies without ownership share in the publisher and/or without the means to self-fund the publisher should work as a producer of the games.

The publisher could also work as an agent of the owners with regards to licensing their IP's and engines out to others and could also provide business connection to the owners.

[Kristian Joensen]

Drazula, I forgot to mention but Tommy Hawk will be an authentic cherokee, Tommy Hawk isn't his cherokee name.

[Drazula]

But it is a cliche. Right?

Anyway, the point I am making is that you are referinge to game developers that are capable of self-funding. Most game developers are not self-funded. (As I said, 3DR and id are the exception, not the rule.)

Without publishers, developers go back to making games with short development cycles. And what is really funny is that they already exist. They are called Independent Game Developers. They make games like "Gish" and "Wik & the Fable of Souls". While I like these games, they are not on the same level as publisher supported games.

How many topics here have we seen regarding an IGD game? One, two? Do you really want ALL games to go back to that? I don't.

[Kristian Joensen]

We can't know if it is a cliche or not since we don't know what it is, Tommy Hawk is as I mentioned earlier just a name either he himself or some of his "friends"/co-workers have given him, a sort of nickname, he has a real authentic cherokee name.

Also You say only a few developers can self-fund, but that is the wole point of my proposal to deal with that problem. This publisher would fund the projects it undertook in exactly the same way 3D Realms funded Max Payne, that is without the use of advances.

You have to remember that 3D Realms + Epic + Id + Valve + maybe a select few others(like Human Head Studios, Remedy Entertainment and one or more of the following list: Terminal Reality, Ritual Entertainment and Crytek) = lost and lots of cash available to fund new projects. If these companies where to merge and/or coordinate their external development efforts, they would be able to undertake alot of projects.

It seems to me like you haven't really understood my proposal.

Drazula I am not talking about small garage developers at all here but about AAA games and developers.

[Drazula]

You're right, I guess I still had MM's suggestion in my head. Your idea is a lot more solid. Sorry!