Doom 3 Alpha from 2002

[johny2905]

Hi guys. I'm new on this forum, and I registered just for one purpose. I saw there's a Doom 3 article here, and I just wanted to check if anyone exept me like Doom 3 alpha more than final?

If you can remember, there were 3 levels in leaked alpha, and there was something that's so good and original that I don't see and feel in final version of game.

For exemple, when you shot from pistol, shotgun or
machinegun, there was a lot of smoke from it.
Trent Reznor's sounds of weapons and enemies were so great, that game from this point of view was more than best of all FPS's. Also, ambinet music was very scary. Then, in the middle of development, he quits and then we got stupid "pot" sounds and stuff. Don't tell me that there are Trent Reznor Sounds for download, cause I downloaded it, and it was great, but far from what it could be in final.
Another thing is that cutscenes were also much more memorable and unique. I always remember the famous "BathRoom Scene" and I just can't understand why it was taken out from final cut.
Most of all, I hate desepearing enemies in final. You kill tons of demons and zombies, and then you only get empty rooms without any proof of hard core actions. Only one thing remains here. You can have zombies which not desepear after killing, but ragdoll after they are killed is so bad that I have a feeling that I've killed a paper doll, not bloody hungry zombie big head zombie. If you can remember, there was one zombie in third level of alpha which was RagDolled. His ragdoll is something that had to be implemented in final, not this paper doll stuff.
I saw that many people hate hell spawns. It's ok to have some places in the game where you could be freaked out with some strange demonic whisper where demons spawn directly from Hell, but it is so anoyingly often in final. Almost every demon is spawned...! In alpha, every demon was actually there. I had a feeling of their weight, of their greatness, and now I have a feeling that I'm kiiling desepearing dolls...
Graphic is also much better in alpha! Models and everything else looked much better.
Alpha represented a real sequel after 10 years. It wasn't so dark, just like Doom 1 and 2, and we didin't have stupid lamp in hand.

It's just me, or ID ruined their chance to make best FPS ever...?


ps: Is there a way to play Doom 3 Alpha on nowadays Nvidia drivers? Carmack requested from Nvidia to put protection on alpha, and they still didin't take it off. When I try to play alpha, monitor goes blank, and I can hear the sounds, start the alpha with help of console, but I can't see a thing...!

[Cerberus_e]

it's not iD's fault you don't like the darkness and flashlight gameplay element.
I liked it.

[SyntaxN]

The alpha was cooler than the full in some ways imo, nothing was finished but everything is darker and seems to be....more evil, it´s hard to describe http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I can still remember how I feelt when I started the alpha for the first time...it was the best moment I ever had in my gaming history!


ps: Is there a way to play Doom 3 Alpha on nowadays Nvidia drivers? Carmack requested from Nvidia to put protection on alpha, and they still didin't take it off. When I try to play alpha, monitor goes blank, and I can hear the sounds, start the alpha with help of console, but I can't see a thing...!


Try atuner (for example) and activate emulta NV40 under the OpenGL options http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[FireFly]

Cerberus_e said:
it's not iD's fault you don't like the darkness and flashlight gameplay element.
I liked it.


When is it the game developers fault?

[Cerberus_e]

when no one likes it, excluding exceptions

[FireFly]

But that's a contradiction - if there are exceptions then clearly some people like it.

[Cerberus_e]

yes, but there will always be people that like a game.
I was talking about everyone (excluding exceptions) = 90%

[Dr. Kill]

Trent Reznor was involved originally? Damn. Wish he did work in the final version. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[FireFly]

Cerberus_e said:
I was talking about everyone (excluding exceptions) = 90%


And how do you know whether 90% of the public like a given feature or not?

[Cerberus_e]

FireFly said:

Cerberus_e said:
I was talking about everyone (excluding exceptions) = 90%


And how do you know whether 90% of the public like a given feature or not?



there are lots of people defending that as a gameplay feature that makes you feel vulnerable, so there are at least not 90% disliking it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[FireFly]

Are you really saying that as long as 90% of the people don't dislike it, you can't blame the developer? So if 85% of a game's fanbase hated a given feature that would be fine?

[Cerberus_e]

don't take everything so literally. (yes, I know it's my fault, I expressed myself wrong http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
fact is, lots of people like doom 3.

[FireFly]

Well, that's really my point - it's all arbitrary (80%, 70%, 60%?) If you mean, "when most people dislike a feature", then that would be at 51%.

There was a ton of criticism for the 'flashlight gameplay'. I wouldn't like to say what proportion of the gaming public approved or disproved.

[avatar_58]

I liked the darkness and flashlight w/o gun gameplay. It adds some fear and doubt. The game would have been too easy if you could use your flashlight with a gun.

[FireFly]

I think the problem was that they picked a small one-handed flashlight, so it felt unnatural. I think the mechanic would have been better received if the player wielded a huge halogen lamp.

[Damien_Azreal]

I liked the sounds and some effects from the "alpha" better than the final. But overall, I liked the clostraphobic feel the final version gave you. Lost in dark, contsrictive corridors.

Not knowing whats around the corner and having (keyword... HAVING) to put your weapon away to shine your flashlight to see.
I thought that really added to the atmosphere. But, I never found the game to dark to see really. I neve runderstood the people that complained it was so dark I couldn't see anything.

Also, just so ya know, the "alpha" wasn't actualy an alpha. It was a 3-level preview ID built for E3. So actualy it's simply an E3 demo.
We didn't actualy get the alpha build of the game... I'm sure there would've been more than 3 levels to it. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jimbob]

FireFly said:
I think the problem was that they picked a small one-handed flashlight, so it felt unnatural. I think the mechanic would have been better received if the player wielded a huge halogen lamp.

i know what you mean, that mag-lite thing he carried could easily be attached to a gun or something using a shoelace or something, something you are likely to do in the dark and in need of 2 hands to survive http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

a huge halogenlamp would certainly be have been a better solution, those big ones are verry heavy, and it would also be more realistic in term of battery usage. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Sir Lemonhead]

Yeah, instead of having to take the flashlight out while not firing, you could like.....stop, untie the shoelace and then retie it every time you changed weapon http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Yatta]

I liked the Alpha better too. Way more scary than the final game.

[Roger]

FireFly said:

Cerberus_e said:
it's not iD's fault you don't like the darkness and flashlight gameplay element.
I liked it.


When is it the game developers fault?



When it's a technical issue rather than a design issue. I thought you people were able to understand the comparison between objective vs. subjective. Either I've been giving you too much credit, or you have a selective perception.

[Solefald]

Alpha was way better, I loved it and really was sad to see those parts taken out.

I don't know if anyone remembers, but at the end of the E3 video iD put together(the alpha), the player gets killed by a Hellknight. The Hellknight then picks the player up and as he does this your vision is downwards and you can see your body? I thought that was awesome when I saw that, and of course pinky bursting out of the wall.

[Otto von Keisinger]

I never had the chance to play the leaked version, although from what I heard, it is right up my alley. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[Neptune]

Alpha>Final

but still love the final.

[jimbob]

Sir_Lemonhead said:
Yeah, instead of having to take the flashlight out while not firing, you could like.....stop, untie the shoelace and then retie it every time you changed weapon http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

or tie it to your shoulder http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif or helmet even http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Cerberus_e]

no, then you loose the fun gameplay element of feeling vulnerable, the game would be too easy, why can't people see that?

[FireFly]

Roger said:
When it's a technical issue rather than a design issue. I thought you people were able to understand the comparison between objective vs. subjective. Either I've been giving you too much credit, or you have a selective perception.


What technical issue stopped id from allowing the player to use a flashlight and gun at the same time?

To clarify, I think the decision was a good idea, but it was just that, a design decision, one that id partially remedied in ROE, and one that modders addressed themselves.

[jimbob]

Cerberus_e said:
no, then you loose the fun gameplay element of feeling vulnerable, the game would be too easy, why can't people see that?

because its silly, and a cheap trick. its like not giving the main character any shoes so he walks really slow! man that makes one vulnerable! and the games wil take another 10 hours to complete aswel http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Roger]

FireFly said:
To clarify, I think the decision was a good idea...



Sure, bub.

[Cerberus_e]

jimbob said:

Cerberus_e said:
no, then you loose the fun gameplay element of feeling vulnerable, the game would be too easy, why can't people see that?

because its silly, and a cheap trick. its like not giving the main character any shoes so he walks really slow! man that makes one vulnerable! and the games wil take another 10 hours to complete aswel http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



everything is a cheap trick for you http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I hate the term "cheap trick". it works, and other non-cheap tricks like you guys call it don't work, so that's some weird talk here http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jimbob]

its cheap because you are delibretly giving the player an unnessicery weakness. instead of making the enemies more powerfull or giving the player some more harder obstacles to overcome.

so, instead of giving the enemie some real smarts, they just lower the damage done by the guns to balance it.
for example

[Drazula]

A few things:

- The alpha sounds were better for sure.
- I saw the bathroom scene in alpha, why do I need it in the game?
- The flashlight or gun was not due to any technical limitations (such thoughts are nonsense). It was a design decision that worked very well for the Doom environment. That doesn't mean it would work for everygame. I'd love to see an "infrared" mod that makes the flashlight show heat patterns instead of light. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[FireFly]

Roger said:
Sure, bub.


Well I was one of the few defending it on release and I think with a few simple tweaks it would have been much better received.

As it is, it gives the player a great tradeoff between being armed and prepared for combat, but vulnerable due to lack of visibility, and being fully able to see and track enemies but vulnerable due to lack of firepower! So it's continually challenging the player, forcing him or her to make a decision and experience the benefits and costs of whatever that decision is. If you like it's a meta game on top of an existing game, that not only gives an extra edge to the fear factor but acts as a challenge in itself.

If anything Doom 3 could have used the mechanic more with more variance between light and dark areas, so the player reaches a completely dark area and thinks "oh shit". One of my favourite parts of Doom 3 was when you had to rely on a scientist for light while at the same time protecting him from demon attacks. This wouldn't have worked at all had the player been able to use a flashlight and gun at the same time, and in this case the tradeoff made things more interesting as well because you were tempted to flick out your own flashlight and scout ahead.

[jimbob]

Drazula said:
- I saw the bathroom scene in alpha, why do I need it in the game?

you saw it in the alpha. most people however saw it in the 3e video and never got to see any of it ever again.

[Violent-Games]

From what I've read all of the features that you guys miss so bad have done nothing to the overall game. So what if you don't get to see that bathroom cutscene, it's not like the game depends on that one moment. And if you thought that the sounds were better in the Alpha, then mod them into the retail version. And to whoever said that the models in the Alpha were better then the retail's, you're wrong. All of the models are of good quality and the bump mapping usage is superb. Some of the weapons or monsters may have looked better in the Alpha, but the retail models are definitely not of less quality.

All I'm hearing is a bunch of whining when I should be hearing ideas to make a mod out of all this stuff that you guys just can't live without. Boo Hoo. Quit crying about it and do something to fix it. If you have the alpha get to modding, if you can't mod at all, then don't try to put down Doom 3, because you couldn't do any better. Could you?

I've heard enough of all this Doom 3 could have been better crap. It's done, it's already been released. If you don't like something about, then fix it your damn self. If you can't or if you don't know how or if you don't even want to try, shut up. It's a great game and even though you are allowed to state your opinion about it, I too can get pissed about this ongoing topic and I'll tell you about it too. Doom 3 has kicked ass so far and to tell you the truth I think it's better then Half-Life 2. I mean I don't even play HL2 anymore and I know a lot of people who have done the same. That says a lot.

VG

[Beelze]

The scene with the Pinky Demon and the pipes was better than all scripted sequences in Doom 3 put together. Cerb would've loved it, and we all know why.

[Cerberus_e]

Beelze said:
Cerb would've loved it, and we all know why.



I've seen it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
but it doesn't beat the current pinky intro

[Beelze]

Don't debate with me, boy! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Cerberus_e]

Beelze said:
Don't debate with me, boy! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif



I didn't know you were, all of a sudden, also a fan of enemies bursting through walls?
I'm going to the patent office now, hopefully I arrive earlier than you! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif

[FireFly]

How often do enemies burst through walls in Doom 3?

[Cerberus_e]

walls alone? maybe only once or so, but bursting in general: quite some times... through doors, stairs, floor, ceiling ...

[Damien_Azreal]

Beelze said:
The scene with the Pinky Demon and the pipes was better than all scripted sequences in Doom 3 put together. Cerb would've loved it, and we all know why.



The Mancubus intro was pretty damn sweet, but I loved the Lost Soul intro in Doom 3. That was just badass.

But the pinky busting through those pipse was very cool. I loved playing that.

[laffer]

One of my favourite parts of Doom 3 is before hell breaks loose, I love looking around in the base while it's fully operational.
Someone should make a mod where you could walk around in the entire base and look at people working and stuff with no enemies or anything http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Damien_Azreal]

That would be very cool.

I always thought they rushed you into the game a bit. I would've liked to have seen more of the base, bunks, kitchen... and religuos chapel. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

It would be cool if someone would just take Doom 3 and expand on it.

But, I still like the shotgun design from the "alpha" better than the rectangle we got in the final game. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dr. Kill]

Wow, that does look better.

[Micki!]

Damien_Azreal said:
That would be very cool.

I always thought they rushed you into the game a bit. I would've liked to have seen more of the base, bunks, kitchen... and religuos chapel. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

It would be cool if someone would just take Doom 3 and expand on it.

But, I still like the shotgun design from the "alpha" better than the rectangle we got in the final game. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Wow... Looks cooler than the regular Doom 3 Shotgun... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

It's sad they didn't include all of the cool features from the Alpha...
I also really liked the thing with windows reflecting like mirrors...

[JimboC]

Drazula said:
- I saw the bathroom scene in alpha, why do I need it in the game?


You spoiled elements of the game by downloading a test version before the game was done and that you were never meant to see. You have no one to blame except yourself for that maneuver.

[Damien_Azreal]

JimboC said:

Drazula said:
- I saw the bathroom scene in alpha, why do I need it in the game?


You spoiled elements of the game by downloading a test version before the game was done and that you were never meant to see. You have no one to blame except yourself for that maneuver.



No he didn't. Certain level pieces were still in the final version, but remapped and with changes. None of the cutscenes from the alpha were in the final build.

And he wasn't complaining. He was simply stating there isn't any reason to be upse that the bathroom scene wasn't in the final. He had already seen it, it didn't bother him that it wasn't in the final.

[Steve]

I remember a vid back a few years ago... when the marine died a demon picked him up and started eating him or something like that. It was ***** cool. All in first person view.

[Cerberus_e]

that's the hellknight outro from the alpha

[Steve]

Cerberus_e said:
that's the hellknight outro from the alpha


Very cool stuff. Why did they take that out? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif

[Mblackwell]

People do realize they removed a lot of stuff simply for optimization on low end machines?


....

[Damien_Azreal]

And that most of this stuff was just basic learning with the new engine.

Kindof conceptual work. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Steve]

Mblackwell said:
People do realize they removed a lot of stuff simply for optimization on low end machines?


....


I don't see how a bad guy picking up the marine in first person view is a machine hog.

[Damien_Azreal]

Yeah, the alpha runs at around 50 to 60 FPS for me.

[Otto von Keisinger]

Steve said:

Mblackwell said:
People do realize they removed a lot of stuff simply for optimization on low end machines?


....


I don't see how a bad guy picking up the marine in first person view is a machine hog.


It isn't. However, there was a lot of things they removed, like the chapel, because they didn't use the textures elsewhere and didn't want to create two seperate maps for the preinvasion game.

[Damien_Azreal]

Actualy, it says in the Making of Book, they felt it took to long for the player to get to the action.

The had Mars City much larger, with a chapel and living quaters. But cut it down to get the player a weapon and fighting quicker.

All the living quarters, chapels and everything were all in one map.

And none of this was from the alpha, this was all part of the original story boards, script drafts and beta builds.

[Nacho]

They should make a Director's Cut of Doom 3.

[SyntaxN]

Nacho said:
They should make a Director's Cut of Doom 3.


Great, I´m not the only one who thinks that http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mr.Blud]

People do realize they removed a lot of stuff simply for optimization on low end machines?



Yet the Alpha ran super smooth on my machine, unlike the full game.

I mean it *would've* if I had it, which I didn't. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Roger]

SyntaxN said:

Nacho said:
They should make a Director's Cut of Doom 3.


Great, I´m not the only one who thinks that http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Is there room enough on the bandwagon? I think I might climb aboard for this.

[Nacho]

I wonder if a mod team would be nice enough to actually go and make a developers cut.

I always thought the intro with no action should be longer. I wanted to get to know some people and see the place before all hell broke loose.

[Cerberus_e]

Nacho said:
I wonder if a mod team would be nice enough to actually go and make a developers cut.



the mod team doesn't know what's cut.
maybe a few things they read in the book like the chapel, but they have no idea how to remake it identically, which defeats the purpose of having a developer's cut.
and probably not everything that is cut is in that book.
I want it original!