George/Team Why is it you are making DNF?

[GetSome]

I'm quite serious about this question. I could think of many different answers.

Years ago, it could be said as a follow up for D3D. Some years later it could be said to get it done. Today, perhaps to deliver a ground breaking industry shattering game like the world has never seen. Or perhaps just to prove it can get done.

Now the following is admittedly a bit too critical. But can you say that you are doing it for the fans? Because, if this is your driving factor, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is disappointed.

I'll admit that there were a few games before and many games after D3D but none that were quite as satisfying and I would really like a 3DR content produced Duke theme to play on the PC. I've said it before and I'll say it again that I would have been happy playing two or three less than polished Duke PC titles just to keep the spirit alive rather than wait this out.

Did I play DooM, sure, it was sweet, were II and III THAT much better, no IMO, but the spirit was kept alive. Same goes for Quake.

So how about buttoning this thing up and getting it out to us and reserve your present unrest for a sequel to DNF?

[Yatta]

GetSome said:

Now the following is admittedly a bit too critical. But can you say that you are doing it for the fans?


It's a popular franchise that is garaunteed to sell shitloads even if it ends up sucking ass (which is very doubtful). Who gives a shite about the fans. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[GetSome]

^That's kind of what I'm trying to understand. I think they care.

[LeadBullet]

They want to get paid.

Not to say they don't like what they do though.

[hell-angel]

How about:
Because they can and it's fun. Combine that with making a lot of money (or at least enough for a descent living) and you have the best job in the world IMO. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Michelangelo]

GetSome said:
I'm quite serious about this question. I could think of many different answers.

Years ago, it could be said as a follow up for D3D. Some years later it could be said to get it done. Today, perhaps to deliver a ground breaking industry shattering game like the world has never seen. Or perhaps just to prove it can get done.

Now the following is admittedly a bit too critical. But can you say that you are doing it for the fans? Because, if this is your driving factor, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is disappointed.

I'll admit that there were a few games before and many games after D3D but none that were quite as satisfying and I would really like a 3DR content produced Duke theme to play on the PC. I've said it before and I'll say it again that I would have been happy playing two or three less than polished Duke PC titles just to keep the spirit alive rather than wait this out.

Did I play DooM, sure, it was sweet, were II and III THAT much better, no IMO, but the spirit was kept alive. Same goes for Quake.

So how about buttoning this thing up and getting it out to us and reserve your present unrest for a sequel to DNF?



Excellent idea for a thread http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif

Hopefully Joe doesn't delete or lock it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif

[Gideon]

I can answer this.. but it's all gonna be rambling.... SO LET'S GET STARTED! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

They make the game because Duke Nukem 3D was so cool.
They love what they're doing.
They want to make it the most awesomest game everest.
They're pride is on the line and they want to show everybody that mocked them that they pulled it off.

It's more of a desire than anything. It's an endless drive to make the perfect game. To make everything = badass. To make everything in the game the best it can be.

They're making it because they want to.
They want to play games that are as badass as this and they're trying to push the industry forward just like they did with Duke3d.

They also believe in George, and there's not a damn person on that staff that want's to dissapoint him, because he doesn't want to dissapoint us.

[ADM]

^^ Again all opinions, noone can answer this other then George or someone from the Team themselves.

[Gideon]

Right. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[EmperorZorn]

The answer is pizza.

[Cerberus_e]

am I the only one that noticed that each time someone makes a thread to rant about the years between Duke3D and DNF, there is a comparision with Doom and Doom 3 made http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Emultra]

That's because you're supposed to count the time between DN:MP and DNF. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Mr.Sociopath]

I'd say they are making this game to sensibilize people about extra-terrestrial invasions, about mind control and about sex
http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kristian Joensen]

Emultra said:
That's because you're supposed to count the time between DN:MP and DNF. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



No, no, no, it is the time between Duke Nukem Mobile 2: The Bikini Project and DNF.

[SyntaxN]

I think in the beginning they made DNF for money and because Duke is...cool http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
But now DNF is more for them, I would say 80% say that DNF either never existed, or will never be released and if it will be released (ever), it will suck...
So Duke will be also there to save 3dr´s image http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Water12356]

Because Duke needs to kick ass and chew bubble gum. Again. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Big poppa]

Water12356 said:
Because Duke needs to kick ass and chew bubble gum. Again. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



That's a good one there.

[ultra tree 85!]

Kristian Joensen said:

Emultra said:
That's because you're supposed to count the time between DN:MP and DNF. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



No, no, no, it is the time between Duke Nukem Mobile 2: The Bikini Project and DNF.



Yes, it's the time between Duke Nukem Mobile 2: Bikini Project. When DNF comes out, it actually won't have been that long since his last game.

Duke Nukem: Manhattan Project-2002
Duke Nukem: Advance-2002
Duke Nukem Mobile-2004
Duke Nukem Mobile(zodiac)-2004
Duke Nukem Mobile 3D-?
Duke Nukem Mobile 2: Bikini Project?

[George Broussard]

I've said it before and I'll say it again that I would have been happy playing two or three less than polished Duke PC titles just to keep the spirit alive rather than wait this out.


And I'm right there with you. I wish that had been an option. I've said before, and I'll say it again, we screwed up on early versions and made some mistakes. This hasn't been a journey of perfection. It's been a journey of just trying to finish what we started, and make it as cool as possible. I would love to have been on Duke 7 by now, but that's not how things panned out. So all we can do is finish this game, and make it the best that we can, then move on. That's what we're trying to do now.

[Cerberus_e]

I'm always wondering what kind of fundemental mistakes you guys made, in 1997 and 2001, forcing you to restart

[Emultra]

Well, if there won't be any more main Duke games after DNF (I really hope that won't be the case), then DNF should be made as good as one single title can be.

[Kristian Joensen]

Cerberus_e said:
I'm always wondering what kind of fundemental mistakes you guys made, in 1997 and 2001, forcing you to restart



They had WAY too few people meaning that the engine was never finished, which again caused content to get redone several times.

In 1998 they restarted becuase they couldn't get content converted from the Quake 2 Engine to the Unreal Engine.

[Cerberus_e]

Kristian Joensen said:

Cerberus_e said:
I'm always wondering what kind of fundemental mistakes you guys made, in 1997 and 2001, forcing you to restart



They had WAY too few people meaning that the engine was never finished, which again caused content to get redone several times.




lies! they just could have hired more people, no need to restart http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mr.Sociopath]

George Broussard said:

I would love to have been on Duke 7 by now



so there WILL be a duke 7 !!.. wow, I'm now seeing far far in the futur!!

[Seraph]

^ Heh.

Anyway, I like their mission. Trying to finish what they started and making an A-List title after all this can't be easy. I'm certain there is an air of "Man we've been at this a while" just as heavy at 3DR as there is in the fandom.

Perhaps we've too often overlooked this. Bearing in mind that we've not seen this game every other day for the past 7 years, its hard not to think that between the pressure to succeed and getting it out the door that there isn't some heavy motivation going on there.

I'd almost say that they're just as tired of waiting as we are.

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[FireFly]

Cerberus_e said:
lies! they just could have hired more people, no need to restart http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


They did hire more people, but by this point their tech was not only in a huge mess but it was rapidly becoming outdated as well. They needed to start from a clean state to stand a chance of being technologically competitive on launch.

[ZuljinRaynor]

Duke Nukem: Eli7e
DN7 is the L33T M4N'S G4M3!

[Kristian Joensen]

Cerberus_e said:

Kristian Joensen said:

Cerberus_e said:
I'm always wondering what kind of fundemental mistakes you guys made, in 1997 and 2001, forcing you to restart



They had WAY too few people meaning that the engine was never finished, which again caused content to get redone several times.




lies! they just could have hired more people, no need to restart http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



No, you are REALLY REALLY overrestimating the amount of work they did in the period 97/98-01. The 2001 version was only about 1 GB currently the game is 8 GB. So on 2001 version they created about 341 MB's a year but in the period after the restart they created 4 GB's a year that is 12 times as much, they didn't increase their staff size 12 times, they added what 10-15 people on to the team. The restart increased productivity CONSIDERABLY, ofcourse one thing you have to factor in is that art takes alot more now.

[The Count]

How do you know how big the 2001-build was ? I never heard that number before http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
And I do appreciate what George says here. I don`t think it makes much sense to dwell upon the subject - meaning the exact reasons for screwing up - again and again. George probably won`t reveal who made which bad decision on which particular day or something. Call it confidential matters of business.
The main facts are known anyway and that should be it - as sad as it is. The DNF-story has truly been a chain of bad luck till 2002 and precious years of lifetime went down the drain. Yes, we all would love to play Duke 7 now and we all don`t grow younger, too.... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
But this time Duke will rise again. Can`t be much longer until he shows his new face in glory. George almost can`t hold him back anymore, I heard Mr. Nukem already tried to go to the movies with GB http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Michelangelo]

George Broussard said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again that I would have been happy playing two or three less than polished Duke PC titles just to keep the spirit alive rather than wait this out.


And I'm right there with you. I wish that had been an option. I've said before, and I'll say it again, we screwed up on early versions and made some mistakes. This hasn't been a journey of perfection. It's been a journey of just trying to finish what we started, and make it as cool as possible. I would love to have been on Duke 7 by now, but that's not how things panned out. So all we can do is finish this game, and make it the best that we can, then move on. That's what we're trying to do now.



It's good to here that from you Georgie http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif

[ultra tree 85!]

The Count said:
I heard Mr. Nukem already tried to go to the movies with GB http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif



http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

When the game is released it will rock. There is something that will be an advantage to Duke Nukem Forever being so late, though. Duke Nukem Forever has been the most anticipated, and the game is like a legend. After waiting so long for it, it'll be really exciting when it finally comes out.

[Piano Man]

Mr.Sociopath said:
I'd say they are making this game to sensibilize people about extra-terrestrial invasions, about mind control and about sex
http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



AMEN TO THAT BRUTHA!!!

[Suppressor]

And when I am 86 years old and fat (I am 24) I can play Duke nukem forever...

Well it´s strange to think over and over again, how my life changed during the curse of time.

I will grab my electric blanket and will play the good old Duke...

[ultra tree 85!]

The Count said:
Yes, we all would love to play Duke 7 now and we all don`t grow younger, too.... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif




Well, hopefully once 3D Realms is done with Duke Nukem Forever, they'll go right into Duke 5, which would be a step towards that. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Of course, we actually have 25+ Duke games if you count all the Duke addons, Duke Zero hour, etc.

[GetSome]

Did you intentionally fail to answer the question? (No disrespect intended.) And again respectfully, no "you are not right there with me". You see, you and your team have had Duke in your presence all these years because you have had the ability to 'play' whatever you had, which is a whole lot more than what we have had.

I'm not knocking Duke titles from other organizations, but if it is not from you, George, I just don't get that magical experience.

It was 3DR itself that convinced me to use WID with respect to software deliveries and you know what? It worked!

I have never delivered a perfect software application and only a few that meet my own high standards; but I came to consider this: the sooner I put something out that is not too awful bad, there are a whole lot of folks that begin to get value for what I (we actually) produce. As long as the value is significantly more than the trouble incurred for a less than ideal delivery, it is a net gain for the consumer. (I almost can't believe I'm saying this but I'm at one of my 'realist' moments.)

Can I ask, please hurry?

[oak man]

GetSome said:
Can I ask, please hurry?




well if they hurry they'll leave all the good stuff out. you don't want it to end up like a nother doom 3 would you? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif

[Echo Black]

oak man said:

GetSome said:
Can I ask, please hurry?




well if they hurry they'll leave all the good stuff out. you don't want it to end up like a nother doom 3 would you? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif



Great graphics, but tedious gameplay? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

[Huckleberry]

A young bull and an old bull are grazing on a hill above a vast pasture full of heifers. The young bull says: "Hey pops, whaddaya say we run down there and nail a coupla those young heifers?" To which the old bull replies: "How about we walk down and nail 'em all?"

Nail 'em all GB.

[Gideon]

Huckleberry said:
A young bull and an old bull are grazing on a hill above a vast pasture full of heifers. The young bull says: "Hey pops, whaddaya say we run down there and nail a coupla those young heifers?" To which the old bull replies: "How about we walk down and nail 'em all?"

Nail 'em all GB.



I love George. I really respect him more than most of you will ever know. But that love only goes so far. I don't give a damn how smooth he talks, I ain't givin' it up! Not even for a copy of the game! um.... wait a min..... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Cerberus_e]

Echo Black said:

oak man said:

GetSome said:
Can I ask, please hurry?




well if they hurry they'll leave all the good stuff out. you don't want it to end up like a nother doom 3 would you? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif



Great graphics, but tedious gameplay? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif



no, some cool stuff taken out

[Lotan]

Kristian Joensen said:

The 2001 version was only about 1 GB currently the game is 8 GB. So on 2001 version they created about 341 MB's a year but in the period after the restart they created 4 GB's a year that is 12 times as much, they didn't increase their staff size 12 times, they added what 10-15 people on to the team.



It isn't right to compare 2001 and 2005 in game sizes. And since George said that the most part of this 8Gb is art, it's obvious that now high-textured art will be much bigger than in 2001.

[Kristian Joensen]

Ehh, I already mentioned that, but that can't account for the difference by far.

[Lotan]

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif Sorry, did not notice the last sentence.

[hell-angel]

Kristian Joensen said:
Ehh, I already mentioned that, but that can't account for the difference by far.



Well, most likely they have more levels now then in 2001 and more models for more items and more sound. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif That all adds up pretty quickly nowadays. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[john2gr]

It's been a while.Last time i checked this forum was......a year ago??Or 10 months.Yeah i remembered DNF,i admired the 2001 video as you all did.I frankly don't care when it will be released as i will welcome it when it comes.BUT there is a sadness and will always be.It's sad the way things turned out.It's sad to not know what the game is all about.It's sad to not give some screenshots as teasers to all these fans we were supporting 3DR.It's sad to see some other DN games that have nothing to do with DNF.It should be their first priority.Now i don't know how long did it take to produce Project Manhattan,but it sure didn't work well for DNF (from the cash aspect it might helped).Sure there will be some "false" hype if they'll release one screenshot,but from one screenshot???Nyaaaaaaah,i don't think so.

Bottom line is that DNF will bring smile,tears and sadness to a lot of people as most were expecting this for 7 years or so.And for what?For 10-15 hours gameplay (as most FPS's these days tend to last this long)?

And you can't compare DNF with Prey.Prey died a long time ago,we knew that they stopped.It was a shock to hear that it was being developed again by another company but this isn't the same situation with DNF as it is in development all these years.

We all agree here that gameplay>>graphics.So why is 3DR tweaking a lot the graphics engine,so much that it's almost an 3DR graphics engine??Why they have almost 8GB of data and most of them are art datas?Why the graphics are so much better than the 2001 video?Why changing so many graphics engine if the gameplay matters?

Frankly this scares me a lot and that's something that will delay further DNF's release IMO.Normal mapping,stencil lights and shadows,per pixel shooting are some of the features that Doom3 introduced and i'm sure 3DR will have them in DNF.So how about HDR and all the SM3.0 features?What next?Maybe sunrays and diffuse transmission,real-time soft shadows,soft particles?

All in all you can't have the most beautiful game as every 2 months there will be another which will have better graphics.The gameplay counts and to be honest,if 3DR was focusing only in the gameplay area,DNF would have been released 2-3 years ago.

As for Doom3,cause many people mentioned it's gameplay.I was following Doom3's development and I KNEW from the first time that it would be an atmospheric/scary FPS.They didn't ever say that the AI would be beyond this world,they didn't ever say it would have the same number on-screen monsters as Doom1-2 or the same pace.All they said was that Doom3 will be a remake of Doom,with a modern graphics engine and a scary theme .And face it,it is a remake,it is scary (play it at night with the sound set in maximum) and has a modern graphic engine.Personally i enjoyed it,yeah it may be a little dark but play it at night with the lights off.Simply gorgeous and it is what it was said it would be.

[Cerberus_e]

I agree.
in fact, ID software said BEFORE the release you wouldn't get serious sam gameplay!
it's always beyond me how people dare to complain then, except if they didn't follow the development of doom 3, which I highly doubt because someone that played the original doom... you'd expect him to be interested in how doom 3 will be.

[Kristian Joensen]

DN:MP involved mostly Scott and he isn't part of the DNF team anyway. The renderer has been finished since November 2002 and it has already got support for SM3.0 and HDR.

Contrarary to popular opinion they have NEVER reworked the game following the release of some other game, they sadly HAD to scrap the 2001 build or they would never have finished the game ever, the game would end up canncelled.

3D Realms care alot about gameplay and story but they want competetive graphics and HAVE got high standards also in that department, the engine is there to support the gameplay not the other way around. This (http://www.crus.com/software/previews/prey.html) preview of Prey 98 edition proves that for 3D Realms gameplay and story are first and that good graphics are there for the gameplays sake.

It also proves that they ALSO want to be innovative or atleast competetive when it comes to graphics and engine technology, but only to have the best presentation possible of their gamepay and story.

[hell-angel]

Cerberus_e said:
I agree.
in fact, ID software said BEFORE the release you wouldn't get serious sam gameplay!
it's always beyond me how people dare to complain then, except if they didn't follow the development of doom 3, which I highly doubt because someone that played the original doom... you'd expect him to be interested in how doom 3 will be.



And Doom 3 was a good game IMO. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif

Now if DNF will be just as good (and with all the interactivity it can not be worse I imagine http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )I will be a happy man. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif

[The Count]

Today after a long time of absence I came across the Forums of the delayed Call of Cthulhu-Dark Corners of the Earth again and found this recent statement by one of the developers. Some of them now have started to post on a regular basis there.

Quote: "- Why has the game taken so long to develop?
You have probably heard various different reasons for this and you may even have some of your own ideas, but the simple fact is that this is a highly ambitious project for a relatively small development team."

So there we have it... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mr. Pink]

john2gr said:
And for what?For 10-15 hours gameplay (as most FPS's these days tend to last this long)?




I'm sincerely hoping that we'll see a bunch of really cool user community DNF mods/levels that greatly extend gameplay. I know nothing can replace Build http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif but still hoping there's a lot of flexibility in there.

[Grand Fromage]

GetSome said:
I'm quite serious about this question. I could think of many different answers.



http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/2830/pilemoney19qb.jpghttp://img487.imageshack.us/img487/1700/hookers3uc.jpg http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/5034/photo17oo.jpg

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif

[hell-angel]

hehe, I prefer the top right one, although the top left one is good as well. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I have no cluse about what the bottom one is supposed to be. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Micki!]

hell-angel said:

I have no cluse about what the bottom one is supposed to be. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif



DRUGZ!!! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[hell-angel]

Micki! said:

hell-angel said:

I have no cluse about what the bottom one is supposed to be. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif



DRUGZ!!! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif



Ah, I see. Well that proves I don't use it. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I don't want that though. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Mr.Sociopath]

hell-angel said:
hehe, I prefer the top right one, although the top left one is good as well. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif




in higher resolution, the top right that you said you'd prefer was that coke.. I thougth "yeah that's an hell's angel all right..." http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[hell-angel]

Mr.Sociopath said:

hell-angel said:
hehe, I prefer the top right one, although the top left one is good as well. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif




in higher resolution, the top right that you said you'd prefer was that coke.. I thougth "yeah that's an hell's angel all right..." http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



oops, didn't think of that. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Let me rephrase then http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif :
I prefer the girls but the money is ok as well. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif