A Few Reasons Why Cancelling Fan Games Is Stupid

[DudeMiester]

1. Fan games are the gaming equilavent of fan fiction, and you don't see copyright owers cancelling fam fiction
2. It enhances your brand image and sales, because people see it and thing the origional game must be amazing to get people to make the fan game. Of course the makers of the fan game will agree wholeheartedly, and will make more sales.
3. It solidifies your user base, exposing more people to you game/brand, thus making sequals more successful.
4. You loose nothing, so long as you force fan games to be free.
5. You can keep better tabs on the community, because if you track fan games, you might more easily find those who use your contect/IP for commercial purposes.
6. The only difference between a mod and a fan game, is that a fan game is potentially stand alone. This isn't a very big difference.
7. If you're worried that fan games will undermine your sales, that implies it's better then your game. In which case, WTF are you making games for if you suck?! You're supposed to be professionals, better then the amatures.
8. It expands the industry, giving small indie teams the chance to show their stuff and maybe get a real contract.

I'm sure there are a lot more reasons too.

[Nacho]

Excellent. I agree 100%.

Only because I used to make them.

[Phayzon]

Agreed.

[Mblackwell]

DudeMiester said:
1. Fan games are the gaming equilavent of fan fiction, and you don't see copyright owers cancelling fam fiction



Depends where it's distributed. And I'm fairly certain some authors and publishers DO stop fan fiction, at least from reaching large circulation.



2. It enhances your brand image and sales, because people see it and thing the origional game must be amazing to get people to make the fan game. Of course the makers of the fan game will agree wholeheartedly, and will make more sales.




Depends on the quality of the result. And it doesn't necissarily get more sales... depending (I'll explain later).



3. It solidifies your user base, exposing more people to you game/brand, thus making sequals more successful.




Depends, most of the people that play fan games are already fans themselves, so not necissarily. And as far as userbase, again, depends on quality.



4. You loose nothing, so long as you force fan games to be free.




This is not true, depending on the experience, again, I'll explain in a minute.



5. You can keep better tabs on the community, because if you track fan games, you might more easily find those who use your contect/IP for commercial purposes.




I don't even see how these two things are related. Just because you know someone made a fan game doesn't mean you know if someone else completely stole all of your textures and sold them as their own.



6. The only difference between a mod and a fan game, is that a fan game is potentially stand alone. This isn't a very big difference.


7. If you're worried that fan games will undermine your sales, that implies it's better then your game. In which case, WTF are you making games for if you suck?! You're supposed to be professionals, better then the amatures.






So I'm going to answer 6 and 7 together since they are related, and this will answer the questions I mostly avoided before. Look, the point is, if they create content TOO CLOSE to the original (there is some leway, depending) then it CAN keep people from buying a game, not because it's necissarily better, but because it's free. The problem with, for instance, most mods that try to emulate other games is not that they are simply using another IP, or even a level from it, or a scene from it, no, often times they are trying to recreate the ENTIRE experience. This DOES undermine sales, unless of course it absolutely sucks, and it's possible it will be redone on a newer engine with improvements in texture quality and such, and then why would anyone want to play the original anymore?

Even if a mod/fan game doesn't just copy the game coin for coin, some publishers/developers are extremely careful because often if you let afew through eventually they ALL slip through. The biggest problem comes when, rather than creating new content, the original assets are used. Even id Software, who is a big force in the modification world, will get upset when you use certain assets outside of their games/engines (mostly the newer stuff from Doom 3, they tend to ignore eveything else).

I hope you understand what I'm saying here, it's a matter of keeping your bases covered from the point of view of the company.



8. It expands the industry, giving small indie teams the chance to show their stuff and maybe get a real contract.



Sometimes, though they could create all original content that is really awesome and make themselves look even better because of that originality, couldn't they? Just because you can copy someone else doesn't make you fantastic http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif.



Anyways, this topic will probably be locked.

[Cerberus_e]

DudeMiester said:
7. If you're worried that fan games will undermine your sales, that implies it's better then your game. In which case, WTF are you making games for if you suck?! You're supposed to be professionals, better then the amatures.



that's not a reason to allow the fan game but a reason to CANCEL it!
and this reason makes all other "pro" reasons neglible.
so they cancel fan games.

not that I'm pro cancelling games, just pointing out that you're wrong http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[avatar_58]

If a company wants to they can end anything that is using their IP without permission. Thats the way it is. No fan game should ever bother starting unless they are willing to ask permission....because they are just asking for it by working undercover.

[Drazula]

What fan game was cancelled, that inspired this topic?

[Blade Nightflame]

Drazula said:
What fan game was cancelled, that inspired this topic?



My best guess is the Kings Quest 9 fangame or something.

[avatar_58]

I keep telling people that KQ9 was asking for it. They should have gotten permission or else they have nothing to whine about.

[zilppuri]

I disagree with all of your points. You have no facts to post your statements.
Where on earth did you think fan games would increase sales?

I wont go shredding trough each point, since I think others have already pointed out the flaws in them quite good.

Also it didn't really help to sell us your opinion, when you put that WTF there.
How about "WTF are you making games if you can't think of original idea, but have to use someone elses?"

[Mountain Man]

One good reason to cancel fan games:

It allows a company to protect the rights to its intellectual property.

[Cerberus_e]

the best reason is that it cuts down sales of the actual, original game.
fan games should include a protection that wants to verify one of the files from the original game first http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
like jonof's port does with duke3D.
but instead of using the content of the file, it could just verify it with some sumcheck of some kind, then proceed to boot the fangame http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Wamplet]

Drazula said:
What fan game was cancelled, that inspired this topic?


King's quest 9.



Here's an idea.

Come up with your own idea/game instead of mooching off of someone else's hard work.

[Rider]

Wamplet said:
Come up with your own idea/game instead of mooching off of someone else's hard work.



Agreed 100%

[avatar_58]

Wamplet said:
Here's an idea.

Come up with your own idea/game instead of mooching off of someone else's hard work.



They want to cash in (figuratively since its freeware) on the name. They don't think they could succeed without well known characters and locations.

80% of the KQ9 screenshots were KQ6 related.

[Thriller]

DudeMiester said:
4. You loose nothing, so long as you force fan games to be free.

If the fan game sucks, the original game will lose in value.

[shiranui]

DudeMiester said:
1. Fan games are the gaming equilavent of fan fiction,



THAT alone is justification to stop it.


DudeMiester said:
and you don't see copyright owers cancelling fan fiction




Pity...

Leave games making to the pros. If fans insist on making games, do something original.

[avatar_58]

shiranui said:
Leave games making to the pros.



To be fair some fan games are more 'pro' than the pros.

[Nacho]

shiranui said:
If fans insist on making games, do something original.



I actually have to agree. As much as I love the fan base making games off of there icons and such. There's to many.

I want to play original fan games. Not some Duke Nukem fan game. 3DR supplies all the Duke I need.

This is just an example.

[Drazula]

avatar_58 said:

shiranui said:
Leave games making to the pros.



To be fair some fan games are more 'pro' than the pros.


Can you tell me a good fan game. I still can't formulate an opinion on this subject because I am unaware of any fans games.

[laffer]

Here are some very good ones :

http://www.agdinteractive.com/

[JimboC]

Thanks for that link! And HOLY CRAP they have a lot of bandwidth. Downloaded at over 2Mb/sec!

[Kev_Hectic]

Wamplet said:

Drazula said:
What fan game was cancelled, that inspired this topic?


King's quest 9.



Here's an idea.

Come up with your own idea/game instead of mooching off of someone else's hard work.




Exactly.

Or they couldv'e made a game that looks and plays similar to Kings Quest and just named it something else.

[Drazula]

Thanks for the link. I wasn't a King Quest fan, that's why I didn't know what "fan games" were.

[WarHammer]

Nacho said:
3DR supplies all the Duke I need.


That part made me chuckle a bit.

[LeadBullet]

The people that make them are the stupid ones, and its their own damn fault.

If what they make is a lot like what they are fans of, other fans of the game they like will be interested in what they make anyway. But like idiots they'll rip off the title, character names etc. and get shut down. They could just make their own game and story and have the gameplay style similar and people would be interested since its similar, and they couldn't be sued.

[DudeMiester]

The post wasn't inspired by any game. I saw a site called fanfiction.net and thought, "Where is the game version of this? That's right, it was cancelled." Well there is moddb, but mods have the feature lockin that fan fiction and independant programs don't have (i.e. you can write fan fiction into an entirely independant book).

And as for the argument that indie people must suck because they are not using original contect, let's take a look back at reality. Have you ever heard the term, "role model"? The fact is most great people are inspired by another person, and get their start by imitating them. Yes, that means copying them! As they say, imitation is the greatest compliment. So while many groups first works will be blatent imitations/copies, it's extremely unlikely imho that their later works will continue to be copies. More likely, they will be great original works, and if the official developer helped them along the way they could potentially get a bit of $$ out of it or at least more good publicity.

On the other hand, the established professionals are expected to only use original and high-quality content. Mainly, because they are using it for profit. If an amature team is doing better then the pros, there IS something wrong.

Moreover, bad amature projects will not affect sales in any significant way in todays global market. If it sucks, it will not get publicity and will not affect sales. As for the few that still do see it, unless they are stupid, they will realise it's an amature work that has little bearing on the official game. On the other hand, if it's very good, it will have a serious positive impact on sales.

Lastly, there is the issue of higher quality remakes of old games. Well, considering they are almost universally old games, that the official creater almost certainly makes no money with, there is no negative impact. On the other hand, the remake may spark new interest in the game, making an official sequal an attractive proposition. However, this tactic also falls into the blurry realm of abandonware, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to require that fan games devitate a noticable amount from the original. I mean you wouldn't allow a total reprint by any group in the literature world. Nevertheless, this is only one aspect of fan games, and not indicative of the rest.

[avatar_58]

I'm going to use AGD Interactive as an example of what SHOULD be done.

You know the King's Quest 1 and 2 remakes? I think they are BS. Why? How the hell are they getting away with it while others can't?

The proper way to do a fan based remake is to require the original files. Thats all. They could bill it as KQ1-HD pack. Instead they choose to remake a game which isn't theirs. I wouldn't be surprised if AGD is attacked by Vivendi in the future because it makes no sense. Why can't they just make the original game required? That way only paying customers to sierra online could ever play the remake.

To me it seems almost like these guys want to take credit for making a game that isn't theirs. I mean, the utility to make sierra-like games isn't too hard to use so why not make your own unique adventure games? I don't understand why it needs to be King's Quest or Quets for Glory to be any good.

People are lazy and can't come up with their own ideas. Fan games without permission should not be made. Get permission. Is that so hard? If you don't get permission then move on and make a similar game with different names and story. I mean....its not like its so hard to come with a decent game that can rival the original story of King's Quest.

I saw the work done on Kq9...it was decent. Why can't they just make something new? They obviously have the talent....

[Mountain Man]

DudeMiester said:
The post wasn't inspired by any game. I saw a site called fanfiction.net and thought, "Where is the game version of this? That's right, it was cancelled."


Not really. For instance, fans of Half-Life 2 are more than welcome to use Half-Life 2's modding tools to tell their own story (Minerva (http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/MINERVA) is one such example). Fans of Doom 3 can modify the game and tell their own Doom stories. So really, amateur developers can create all the fan fiction they want provided they respect the original properties and only make the work available to those who own the original games. What they can't do is independently recreate a game in whole or in part and make it available to everybody.


...but mods have the feature lockin that fan fiction and independant programs don't have...


That may be true, but it's not an excuse to thumb one's nose at intellectual property rights which companies have legitimate reasons to aggressively protect.


And as for the argument that indie people must suck because they are not using original contect, let's take a look back at reality. Have you ever heard the term, "role model"? The fact is most great people are inspired by another person, and get their start by imitating them.


There is an Oriental proverb that says, "Don't follow the master. Instead, seek what he sought." In other words, say someone is a fan of Fallout, and they want to pay it homage. Well, instead of copying the Fallout property outright, they should look at the things that inspired Fallout and create an original property using those inspirations. It could have the look and feel of a Fallout game while still being original, unique, and, most importantly, legal!

[avatar_58]

Mountain Man said:
There is an Oriental proverb that says, "Don't follow the master. Instead, seek what he sought." In other words, say someone is a fan of Fallout, and they want to pay it homage. Well, instead of copying the Fallout property outright, they should look at the things that inspired Fallout and create an original property using those inspirations. It could have the look and feel of a Fallout game while still being original, unique, and, most importantly, legal!



This is exactly why some sequels never capture the essence of the original. They forget the insipirations that made the original so good. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Odin]

Thriller said:

DudeMiester said:
4. You loose nothing, so long as you force fan games to be free.

If the fan game sucks, the original game will lose in value.



Not true. There are a plethora of horrible Chrono Trigger remakes out there, but Chrono Trigger remains the best damn RPG ever.

[DudeMiester]

Well I did a few quick searches, and I'm having a difficult time finding fan games that are adaptations and not total copies. Rather curious. Of course, this may be just because I'm not looking hard enough. I would have thought people to be inclined to make fan adaptations of games like Chrono Trigger or the FF series. Plenty of fan fiction though, lol, so it's not a story writing problem. Weird.

[Little Conqueror]

I really agree with your point, but there's more to it than that.


DudeMiester said:
1. Fan games are the gaming equilavent of fan fiction, and you don't see copyright owers cancelling fam fiction



Some of them, yes you do. Certain authors (like J.K. Rowling) actively encourage fan fiction, but others have purposefully squashed it.


2. It enhances your brand image and sales, because people see it and thing the origional game must be amazing to get people to make the fan game. Of course the makers of the fan game will agree wholeheartedly, and will make more sales.



Poor fan games, on the other hand, will drive people away from the original. "This is the kind of crap I can expect in the series? No thanks."


3. It solidifies your user base, exposing more people to you game/brand, thus making sequals more successful.



Not quite sure what you're getting at here, but I'll take a guess. If a company encourages fan games, then it will probably make their fan base happier, and fan games also bring new fans to the series? Possible, but then again, I've never played a fangame of a series I wasn't already a fan of.


4. You loose nothing, so long as you force fan games to be free.



Unfortunately, not always true: what's to stop fan game authors from recreating/ripping work from the original game then? Just because it's free doesn't mean that it doesn't rip off the original. If someone's going to make a fangame, they should make all of the content in it, too - not rip off other games. (This is my qualm with most Mario and Sonic fangames.)


5. You can keep better tabs on the community, because if you track fan games, you might more easily find those who use your contect/IP for commercial purposes.



Good point - fangame authors usually find out when their freeware work is being sold, but they're afraid to do anything about it because they feel like they'd be punished too. If a company encourages fan games, then it can more easily go after those who sell them illegally.


6. The only difference between a mod and a fan game, is that a fan game is potentially stand alone. This isn't a very big difference.



That's a VERY big difference. A mod requires you to already own the game that the mod is for; a fan game requires no such thing. I could theoretically play a Duke Nukem fangame without ever buying the original games.


7. If you're worried that fan games will undermine your sales, that implies it's better then your game. In which case, WTF are you making games for if you suck?! You're supposed to be professionals, better then the amatures.



Sometimes, however, fangames tread a bit too close on the developers' future plans or comes to close to the original, thus making the company perceive it as drawing users away from their product: why pay for a game when you can get a lower quality version for free? (This is not the mindset all people have, but there are still people that have it nonetheless.)


8. It expands the industry, giving small indie teams the chance to show their stuff and maybe get a real contract.



Perhaps, but they could try making original content instead. You're not going to impress publishers by taking someone else's idea, graphics, and music and running with it.

I agree with your main point, but it's a very complicated issue, and companies don't have time to go on a case-by-case basis.

[Thriller]

Odin said:

Thriller said:

DudeMiester said:
4. You loose nothing, so long as you force fan games to be free.

If the fan game sucks, the original game will lose in value.



Not true. There are a plethora of horrible Chrono Trigger remakes out there, but Chrono Trigger remains the best damn RPG ever.

Yes, for those who played the original.

[gungriffon geona]

Rule 1 about fan games: If your going to make one, make it for something REALLY obscure, that's more a cult favorite than a best-selling favorite. that way hopefully no one will really give a crap about it.

Rule 2 about fan games: the Japanese get away with it easier. Because of more lenient copyright laws and everyone's not after everybody's throat like here in America, that type of thing goes over better. Hell, a japanese magazine asked for an interview with the guy working on Marioween DX: Blue Twilight, an american fan game that's been in the works for god only knows how long.

Rule 3 about fan games: ...uh... I'll get back to you on that.

[Logic Bomb]

All your points being one sided.

Enhances your brand image? That's one aspect of it, the other is that it can destroy it or hurt it. I bet lucas loves seeing the princess raped by R2D2 while he vibrates and she's abused by tentacles.

When you let fans do whatever they want you lose control of your franchise. Not only that but you COULD lose your copywrite as well. When you don't uphold your copywrite operties you CAN lose legal rights over them if i understand correctly.

Users who are exposed to it first by the user made content gets a false representation of the franchise as well, once again hurting you possible.

You really didn't think ANY of this through except from the fan's point of view.

[Mountain Man]

Logic Bomb said:
When you let fans do whatever they want you lose control of your franchise. Not only that but you COULD lose your copywrite as well. When you don't uphold your copywrite operties you CAN lose legal rights over them if i understand correctly.


An interesting story, the Alfred E. Neuman character who has graced the cover of MAD Magazine for decades was inspired by an original drawing that had no author signature or copyright notice, so the MAD artists assumed it was a public domain image. When the original artist saw a chance to cash in by suing the successful magazine for copyright infringement, his case was thrown out of court because he had not otherwise shown due diligence in keeping his work from falling into the public domain.

[gungriffon geona]

Okay, I think I've got it now.

Rule 3 about fan games: If your going to start a fan project, MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE DOING. I've seen WAAAAAY to many shitty fangames, so much so that I've almost been entirely put off by them.

Rule 4 about fan games: MAKE SURE YOU'LL FINISH THE DAMN THING! I've seen so many good projects die because the person gives up on it, simply to bluff by saying "my hard drive crashed and lost everything". honestly, a hard drive dying is a VERY rare occurence, and most of the time you can tell when the creator is feeding bull.

And... I'll right more when I think of them.