HL2: Looking Back

[seregrail7]

Looking Back... Half-Life 2. (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php?id=127079)
It's an article that was in PCZone a while ago, it's now up on their website.

[Cerberus_e]

Laidlaw: It's a classic science-fiction technique to build your world with details, any one of which could be made into a story or a book in its own right. There's something skimpy and cheap about trying to extract full-scale entertainment from every single little detail, rather than just liberally scattering them about. Some writers will take one idea and spread it very, very thin; others will take that one and five others like it and stuff them ten to a page for hundreds of pages. Guess which kind I prefer? We're trying not to be stingy, but to strike sparks and suggest more stories than can possibly be told. In a game especially, some of our fans love looking for clues that help them piece together a sense of the world, others want to get on with the shooting. We try to satisfy both camps; perhaps this is impossible, but we do try.




I am none of the two types of players Laidlaw mentioned, I prefer a good storyline, but with FACTS (not for the player to guess)



So we gradually tightened our focus on City 17 and the immediate area, and condensed the story so that all events could take place within a relatively short time span, without requiring Gordon to sleep, black-out or do any of those other things that usually mask a transition.




what happened after using the combine teleporter then? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

and instead of commenting on their "best FPS ever" comment, I find it far worse they used this in their screenshots http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif

[Mountain Man]

Cerberus_e said:
Laidlaw: In a game especially, some of our fans love looking for clues that help them piece together a sense of the world...


This describes me to a T. Maybe that's why I've had so much fun with Half-Life 2. It also explains why I tend to play through games much slower than other folks, because I love digging for those clues, and I don't want to miss anything!

[avatar_58]

Mountain Man said:
This describes me to a T. Maybe that's why I've had so much fun with Half-Life 2. It also explains why I tend to play through games much slower than other folks, because I love digging for those clues, and I don't want to miss anything!



I'm the same way but I just didn't find any story in HL2 beyond the following:

* Gordon is chosen to help
* Gordon shoots bad combine soldiers
* Bad Aliens of HL1 are good now?
* Breen is a bad man, who apparently knows gordon
* Kleiner, Alyx and Eli all know gordon, but I'll be damned if I know them
* Gman is helping people along the way
* Barney is the reincarnation of every "barney" in HL1


A few other points, but without the aid of the internet HL2 is a very complicated game that makes little sense.

[Mountain Man]

Wow...you really found the primary narrative that inscrutible?

[Cerberus_e]

avatar_58 said:
* Bad Aliens of HL1 are good now?




yes, now Gordon freed them from the nihilanth http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
you can find that in-game, no guessing needed.


avatar_58 said:
* Kleiner, Alyx and Eli all know gordon, but I'll be damned if I know them




haha http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
that's why "the player IS gordon" doesn't make sense.
I'm sure that gordon knows more than I do.


avatar_58 said:
* Gman is helping people along the way




that's one thing I don't like about HL2's story.
the GMan is just a tool to allow the scriptwriters to let strange things happen in the game easily...

-something strange happened? oh! it's the GMan
-gordon's gravity gun turned into a super gravity gun by mixing with alien technology, what a coincidence? oh! it's the GMan!
-gordon teleported into Breen's office after lamarr jumped into the teleporter, what are the odds that that happens? oh, it's the gman!

[avatar_58]

Mountain Man said:
Wow...you really found the primary narrative that inscrutible?



Considering I came from HL1 only remembering it as a "shoot the aliens, kill the leader" plot yes. Now don't get me wrong I like the game, but I just don't see the fuss on storyline if its this hard to understand.

I read that HL2 timeline on the net but I didn't understand where he got his information from. I barely understood who these combine were or why the hell I was fighting them when I played the first time through (and thats WITH looking at everything around me and taking my time).


@cerb - freed? Where in HL1 was I supposed to know the nih was a slave driver? I assumed this was their leader and he was going to be destroyed. I didn't hear anything about slavery.

[Cerberus_e]

avatar_58 said:
@cerb - freed? Where in HL1 was I supposed to know the nih was a slave driver? I assumed this was their leader and he was going to be destroyed. I didn't hear anything about slavery.



it's told in HL2, one of the vortigaunts tell you.
I think it's the one that puts a gun on your boat

[avatar_58]

Cerberus_e said:
it's told in HL2, one of the vortigaunts tell you.
I think it's the one that puts a gun on your boat



He said something, but I don't recall the nihilanth's name mentioned. Also when I kept talking he continued to say the same things, so I assumed there was nothing more to say. Maybe valve should have invested in a convo system if they wanted me to talk.

[Mountain Man]

avatar_58 said:
Now don't get me wrong I like the game, but I just don't see the fuss on storyline if its this hard to understand.


I find this interesting, because I didn't find the storyline hard to understand at all. Really, the entire plot is pretty much summarized in Dr. Breen's opening speech about surpressing one's urges, or in the case of City 17, and presumbly the other parts of the world under Combine control, having one's specific urge to reproduce forcibly supressed, and that such denial of basic human freedoms should be accepted as the next step in human evolution (making a mockery of Darwin's theory of "survival of the fittest").

From there, it's pretty clear what Gordon has to do and why he has to do it. The narrative of Half-Life 2 is basically the events that happen as Gordon pursues his goal (this is the game proper).

It all seemed fairly straightforward to me.

[avatar_58]

Yeah, and who are the combine? For all I know they are the good guys. One speech didn't do it for me. To me Breen's speeches were babbling and I just walked on by. If Valve wanted me to listen then it should have been interesting and have some point to it.

As for the 'events' well every fps is told that way. I just don't see what makes HL2 special. Did you read something ingame that I didn't? The low resolution pictures on the wall don't count to me.

Half-life 2 should have been a myst type adventure game because at least that way I could get all the info with high resolution pre-rendred walls and pictures. Hl2 seemed like thats what it was trying to do, but it failed IMO.

[Balgias]

avatar_58 said:
Yeah, and who are the combine? For all I know they are the good guys. One speech didn't do it for me. To me Breen's speeches were babbling and I just walked on by. If Valve wanted me to listen then it should have been interesting and have some point to it.

As for the 'events' well every fps is told that way. I just don't see what makes HL2 special. Did you read something ingame that I didn't? The low resolution pictures on the wall don't count to me.

Half-life 2 should have been a myst type adventure game because at least that way I could get all the info with high resolution pre-rendred walls and pictures. Hl2 seemed like thats what it was trying to do, but it failed IMO.



Yes indeed, i had no clue wth the combines where, i didnt discover they were not human till the second time i played the game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif

There was too much that was unexplained in HL2, But hell, there is alot of unexplained things in All Games today ( FF7 For example $#@% )

Aside from the games length and engine ( Technology and graphics ) i really didnt see hl2 as a great game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

Pulling off stunning visuals doesnt overcome Cruddy gameplay and confusion IMO

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/attachments/964936-vortal_pic_149480.jpg

I never Came across this scene ingame all three times i played it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[laffer]

That scene was cut due the hydra not looking cool when it attacked the player.

[FireFly]

avatar_58 said:
He said something, but I don't recall the nihilanth's name mentioned. Also when I kept talking he continued to say the same things, so I assumed there was nothing more to say. Maybe valve should have invested in a convo system if they wanted me to talk.


"While our own lay scattered at your feet, you severed the vortal cord that bound the Nihilanth to life, and to us."

There's a sequence of useful things he says; it's not completely random.


that's why "the player IS gordon" doesn't make sense.
I'm sure that gordon knows more than I do.


Perhaps, but for the duration of the game you are Gordon. As I've said many a time, it's like waking up in someone else's body.


-something strange happened? oh! it's the GMan
-gordon's gravity gun turned into a super gravity gun by mixing with alien technology, what a coincidence? oh! it's the GMan!
-gordon teleported into Breen's office after lamarr jumped into the teleporter, what are the odds that that happens? oh, it's the gman!


It's not as clear cut as that. Nowhere is it stated that the G-Man is responsible for these things, or what the G-Man's role is, if he plays a part. I think that arguably makes Half-Life's blend of strangeness stronger.

Is it fate, destiny, coincidence or does the G-Man simply have everything planned out, to the most minutest of details? Did the G-Man know that Gordon would be given the Gravity Gun prior to the start of the game, did he know the role it would play in the in the Citadel? And if he did, that makes things even stranger. How did he know this? Can he see forwards and backwards in time?

But if you want, you can put it all down to coincidence.


avatar_58 said:
Yeah, and who are the combine? For all I know they are the good guys. One speech didn't do it for me. To me Breen's speeches were babbling and I just walked on by. If Valve wanted me to listen then it should have been interesting and have some point to it.


That's the point. Phrases like 'good guys' and 'bad guys' are too simplistic. They're a race of intergalactic 'slavers' who incorporate captured species into their aresenal by mechanically and biologically augmenting them. The Combine soldiers you fight in Half-Life 2 are really just modified humans, acting as the "trans-human" arm of the Combine's fighting force, the Overwatch.

All this can be deduced in-game.

It isn't stated what the Combine's long term goals are but in the game the human settlements are slowly being replaced by the outlying areas of the Citadel, so its clear they want the Earth for expansion room.


As for the 'events' well every fps is told that way. I just don't see what makes HL2 special. Did you read something ingame that I didn't? The low resolution pictures on the wall don't count to me.


FPS typically use canned cutscenes for significant story events. Half-Life 2 however does all this stuff in game, and even manages to some extent blend story exposition with action. That's the difference.


Half-life 2 should have been a myst type adventure game because at least that way I could get all the info with high resolution pre-rendred walls and pictures. Hl2 seemed like thats what it was trying to do, but it failed IMO.


That wasn't Laidlaw's aim though. If they wanted to keep the player completely informed they would have, and indeed they did originally have an introductory presentation explaining what had happened in the player's absence.

However they decided that this information detracted from the experience they wanted to create - one based in mystery and enigma.

[avatar_58]

FireFly said:
However they decided that this information detracted from the experience they wanted to create - one based in mystery and enigma.



Oh theres mystery and enigma all right. However I just wish they made the story a little more clear instead of expecting me to find it. I really think Laidlaw wanted to make an adventure game...so he should have used a proper method instead of FPS.

[theRobot]

avatar_58 said:

FireFly said:
However they decided that this information detracted from the experience they wanted to create - one based in mystery and enigma.



Oh theres mystery and enigma all right. However I just wish they made the story a little more clear instead of expecting me to find it. I really think Laidlaw wanted to make an adventure game...so he should have used a proper method instead of FPS.



Alright, so in the end it was a good story shot to hell because Valve wanted to tack on a Engine Demo. ID has done the same thing a few times, what would seem like a perfectly good scary movie was turned into an engine demo. (Please... this is not a flame, or do I wish this to turn into a HL2 vs D3 thread... that's not how I meant this paragraph.)

So I suppose we're all just really looking for a good game to come out. It's just sad that it hasn't happened yet for a lot of people. For me, it has, because I enjoyed the hell out of Far Cry. (Regardless of the dying every 17 seconds because I suck at playing that type of game.)

Plus, I got a kick out of rehashing the role of Gordon again, and I'm sure I'll do it again if/when HL3 comes out.

[avatar_58]

Oh I enjoyed HL2, to me it was another good FPS. The physics and grav gun alone added some interesting play. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif However my whole arguement here was that HL2 didn't strike me as good a story as valve and others make it seem. Its like people make up their own story for the game and then praise it. Either the game has a good story or it doesn't....

Personally when I play an FPS I'm not looking for story so it didn't bother me too much.

[Mongorian]

I think the best way to understand Half-life 2's story is to view it more like literature. Not everything is handed to you, but through deduction you can figure out whats going on. Someone made a comment that they didn't understand the combine weren't human 'til the second time through, then made a http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif smilie. Most literature must be read several times to be understood.

I think its interesting also that another one of you commented how you didn't understand Breens speeches because you just walked by the monitors when he talked. Thats the brilliance of the no-cutscene methodology, and also sums up pretty well what Laidlaw said. If you're not interested in understanding, blast on ahead. Otherwise, there are plenty of clues, which through some scouring and theorizing, you can piece into the story.

This technique of Valve's is interesting, but I don't think most players "get it". I think that the comment I referred to earlier with the http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif smilie is highly indicative of this, as are most of the critisisms here. Perhaps some of you should learn some critical thinking techniques. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[theRobot]

Mongorian said:
I think the best way to understand Half-life 2's story is to view it more like literature........This technique of Valve's is interesting, but I don't think most players "get it". I think that the comment I referred to earlier with the http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif smilie is highly indicative of this, as are most of the critisisms here. Perhaps some of you should learn some critical thinking techniques. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



Exactly, that's why I liked the game, I'd also like to just watch the game as if it were a movie. I thought the story was good.

[Roger]

I thought HL2 was a good game. Best game ever? No. *cough*duke3d*cough* But good nonetheless.

[Mountain Man]

avatar_58 said:
Yeah, and who are the combine? For all I know they are the good guys.


Unlikely, judging by this interesting bit of graffiti:

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4035/d3c1706a00005yy.th.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d3c1706a00005yy.jpg)

Clues like this were "hidden" all throughout Half-Life 2 and rewarded the observant gamer who didn't mind having to put the pieces of the puzzle together (I write "hidden" with quotes because most of these clues were in fact quite conspicuous, but I think too many gamers have become conditioned to ignore in-game art and just focus on where their crosshair is pointing).

Was every single question answered by the end of the game? No, but I'm not under the impression that a good story needs to.


To me Breen's speeches were babbling and I just walked on by. If Valve wanted me to listen then it should have been interesting and have some point to it.

As for the 'events' well every fps is told that way. I just don't see what makes HL2 special. Did you read something ingame that I didn't? The low resolution pictures on the wall don't count to me.

Half-life 2 should have been a myst type adventure game because at least that way I could get all the info with high resolution pre-rendred walls and pictures. Hl2 seemed like thats what it was trying to do, but it failed IMO.


So the problem isn't that the story wasn't there, it's that for whatever reason, you didn't feel compelled to pay attention when it was being told.

The more you explain it, the more it seems to me that Half-Life 2's narrative style just wasn't your cup of tea. I can appreciate that. Not everybody is going to like every game.

[Mblackwell]

The story makes assumptions though, that don't really exist in terms of the universe. Also, let's be honest, what exactly does that "graffiti" tell you? Be specific.

[theRobot]

Graffiti is art/expression of opinion, made by those to wish to defy control(in some/most cases).

What he gets from it may not be what you get from it... so look a little harder.

[avatar_58]

Mblackwell said:
The story makes assumptions though, that don't really exist in terms of the universe. Also, let's be honest, what exactly does that "graffiti" tell you? Be specific.



Yes, and I've never even seen that graffiti. I'm sticking with my opinion and its that valve is confused as to what an FPS is. I would have enjoyed this narative much better in a different genre. Why? Well for starters when I played HL2 for the first time I had no idea I was supposed to be using eagle vision to scope out every nook and cranny and to listen to the background noise (breen's speeches).

See in games like Morrowind I do pay attention to details and make sure I check everywhere. However thats because its an RPG and I expect that type of gameplay.

I really ought to play HL1 then HL2 again with a notepad next to my PC. I can then write down MY interpretation of the Half-life storyline. Then we can visually see all the loose ends. I still don't get how the HL2 timeline website managed to find that much storyling in the game. Newspaper clippings don't cut it as storyline to me.

[Mountain Man]

Mblackwell said:
The story makes assumptions though, that don't really exist in terms of the universe.


Like what?


Also, let's be honest, what exactly does that "graffiti" tell you? Be specific.


It seems quite obvious to me. It is apparent that the Combine's idea of humanty's next evolutionary step is to butcher them and use them for purposes presumably not in mankind's best interest.

[Mountain Man]

avatar_58 said:
I've never even seen that graffiti.


It was towards the end in the tunnel filled with radioactive waste, where you had to jump from car to car. It was on a wall out in plain view.


...for starters when I played HL2 for the first time I had no idea I was supposed to be using eagle vision to scope out every nook and cranny and to listen to the background noise (breen's speeches).

I still don't get how the HL2 timeline website managed to find that much storyling in the game. Newspaper clippings don't cut it as storyline to me.


I find it odd that you describe yourself as a gamer who likes to dig for clues and doesn't want to miss a single detail, yet your account of how you played through Half-Life 2 gives the exact opposite impression.

It's really not fair to say that the details of Half-Life 2's story were absent from the game when the truth is, you simply didn't notice or chose to ignore them when you played.

[avatar_58]

You know whats really interesting? What goes on character wise overshadows the details. When people on the train told me get off I did. Then the combine dragged me into the area (verbally anyway) so I obeyed (of course I threw things at them). The very last thing I was worried about was an old fart talking on a screen. Maybe I should have put subtitles on? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif


Seriously I just didn't see the details you all mention. Would you like to me to play the game again with a fine tooth comb? Don't think I won't..... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mountain Man]

avatar_58 said:
You know whats really interesting? What goes on character wise overshadows the details. When people on the train told me get off I did. Then the combine dragged me into the area (verbally anyway) so I obeyed (of course I threw things at them). The very last thing I was worried about was an old fart talking on a screen.


I can understand that. If you played Half-Life 2 as though it were a traditional FPS then you would get a traditional FPS experience. It expects gamers to think outside of the box. Perhaps it could be faulted for not forcing them to?


Seriously I just didn't see the details you all mention. Would you like to me to play the game again with a fine tooth comb? Don't think I won't..... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Go for it! If it gives you any idea of how I played my first time, my initial play through was close to 30 hours.

[avatar_58]

Fine if it helps maybe I will post my thoughts as I slowly run (walk? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) through the game. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Maybe I was too amazed by the physics and tossing things around to care about the tiny details. I did spend a long time on the vehicles though.....but most of the houses were empty.

[Mountain Man]

Exploring the abandoned houses along Highway 17 is one of my favorite parts of the game, even if it is ultimately pointless.

[Paroxysm]

avatar_58 said:
See in games like Morrowind I do pay attention to details and make sure I check everywhere. However thats because its an RPG and I expect that type of gameplay.



Ironic since morrowinds world is so bland and lacking in character.

But you're right that FPS' don't normally tell story like HL2... So what? It's a much more mature type of story telling. I'd like to see much more of it.

[Paroxysm]

avatar_58 said:
You know whats really interesting? What goes on character wise overshadows the details. When people on the train told me get off I did. Then the combine dragged me into the area (verbally anyway) so I obeyed (of course I threw things at them). The very last thing I was worried about was an old fart talking on a screen. Maybe I should have put subtitles on? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif


Seriously I just didn't see the details you all mention. Would you like to me to play the game again with a fine tooth comb? Don't think I won't..... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Wa? You bothered to break the immersion by throwing thing pointlessly at soildiers but the booming announcment was a little too subtle for you?

[avatar_58]

What other game allows you to throw things? It intrigued me...my first REAL game that had physics and proper ragdoll. I got carried away in the first hour of play http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As for morrowind being bland...I beg to differ. Exploring is so much more fun when the game rewards you for it. HL2 had little to reward me with when I check out rooms that are empty http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[laffer]

My biggest problem with the HL2 story is that it relies much too heavily on coincidences (sp).
As I've said before - what are the odds that after you let yourself become captured, your gravity gun turns into a supergun because the specific was Ely created it made it react that specific way with the alien technology.
What are the odds of that happening... microscopic at best, winning the lottery is a piece of cake compared to that.
So the reason why Gordon was able to do what he did was luck really. That bothers me.

[GrkFire611]

The "deus ex machina" has been used in literature since the beginning of time. You can't get around it, so it's not necessarily a writing flaw in and of itself. When it gets too ridiculous or too prevalent in literature, then it starts to break immersion. I felt, like you, that HL2 broke immersion by using the deus ex machina too often. But perhaps it will all come together in a nice conspiracy plot? Time will tell, and I like giving the benefit of the doubt.

[Mblackwell]

Mountain Man said:

Mblackwell said:
The story makes assumptions though, that don't really exist in terms of the universe.


Like what?




Like the fact that most of the characters and exposition aren't even really in the first game. The first game has afew story setpieces and beyond that the characters (except really the Gman) are generic. If we are to take things strickly as knowing things from Gordon's POV, then we can only take the first game, and no mods or otherwise, as being the universe in question. In Gordon's universe there is no Barney. In HL2, there suddenly is. Why should I care about this character? Why should I feel glad or relieved or welcome by these people who I don't even really know?

Why things are the way they are, who everyone is and their motivations, these are important subjects to broach. Without it there's no personal motivation beyond the usual "get to the end", and the rest is really just filler. If the game had allowed you to explore a large city, for instance, and talk with people, and really get a sense of things, it would have been much more interesting. Obviously they throw in the usual sortof tidbits to make you dislike the combine, but for the amount of stuff you do, it's not enough. In the end it feels like so much is going on without you that apparently is your fault anyways, even though you didn't really have any part in it, and you are somehow just supposed to accept it and carry on. That's not story and exposition, that's typical run and gun shooting in disguise.

The fact that it doesn't matter two shits if your squads of troops survive (in Follow Freeman) and typically only get in the way is just another hint at the lack of care you should think of putting into your actions.






Also, let's be honest, what exactly does that "graffiti" tell you? Be specific.


It seems quite obvious to me. It is apparent that the Combine's idea of humanty's next evolutionary step is to butcher them and use them for purposes presumably not in mankind's best interest.




Actually, is it that or is it showing that the combine are basically the same as humanity? Or maybe it's showing we're all related to apes? Or maybe it's saying that combine are devolving into humans and apes? Or maybe it's just pictures of the internals of higher order beings? Or maybe...

get the picture? It's not really so clear cut. That's the worst possible example you could have given really.

[avatar_58]

Spot on, Mblackwell. I didn't know who these characters were and just accepted that gordon did. That was a bit much to me. Was Eli the black man from the beginning of HL1? I had no clue....

Also am I the only one who feels the gordon - alyx relationship rushed itself at the end? I barely knew the girl and she wanted to sleep with me...

[FireFly]

avatar_58 said:
Yes, and I've never even seen that graffiti. I'm sticking with my opinion and its that valve is confused as to what an FPS is. I would have enjoyed this narative much better in a different genre. Why? Well for starters when I played HL2 for the first time I had no idea I was supposed to be using eagle vision to scope out every nook and cranny and to listen to the background noise (breen's speeches).

See in games like Morrowind I do pay attention to details and make sure I check everywhere. However thats because its an RPG and I expect that type of gameplay.

I really ought to play HL1 then HL2 again with a notepad next to my PC. I can then write down MY interpretation of the Half-life storyline. Then we can visually see all the loose ends. I still don't get how the HL2 timeline website managed to find that much storyling in the game. Newspaper clippings don't cut it as storyline to me.


You don't actually need to see the newspaper clippings. Honestly I missed them the first time and my interpretation of the story didn't change when I saw them the second time around. It's not really a question of being observant - I'm not a particularly observant person at all. You just need to take an interest in the world and story, so you do sit around and listen to what Breen has to say, so you do exhaust the Vortigaunts wisdom instead of rushing on ahead.


laffer said:
My biggest problem with the HL2 story is that it relies much too heavily on coincidences (sp).
As I've said before - what are the odds that after you let yourself become captured, your gravity gun turns into a supergun because the specific was Ely created it made it react that specific way with the alien technology.
What are the odds of that happening... microscopic at best,


Not really. You don't know the mechanics of what happened, so you can't apply probabilities. Perhaps what happened was a general reaction to the dark energy that any gravity gun would have experienced.

Consider it thematically and it makes a lot more sense. Your existing gravity gun is incomplete, being unable to manipulate organic objects - it's like one half of the energy equation. However as soon as the existing energy (positive) is to be combined with dark energy (negative) the gun becomes complete.


Why things are the way they are, who everyone is and their motivations, these are important subjects to broach. Without it there's no personal motivation beyond the usual "get to the end", and the rest is really just filler. If the game had allowed you to explore a large city, for instance, and talk with people, and really get a sense of things, it would have been much more interesting. Obviously they throw in the usual sortof tidbits to make you dislike the combine, but for the amount of stuff you do, it's not enough. In the end it feels like so much is going on without you that apparently is your fault anyways, even though you didn't really have any part in it, and you are somehow just supposed to accept it and carry on.


Yes, but I think that's kind of the point. You're not meant to know Barney or any of the other characters, you're not meant to have a detailed picture of what's going on, you're just thrust into the middle of a world you don't fully understand and asked to do the impossible. The whole of Half-Life 2 is just one 15 - 20 hour mission.


The fact that it doesn't matter two shits if your squads of troops survive (in Follow Freeman) and typically only get in the way is just another hint at the lack of care you should think of putting into your actions.


Well, yes, you're the least free person in the world. It's not up to you to make moral decisions, all you do is forge ahead blindly and kill things. So yes in that sense Half-Life 2's plot is just like Serious Sam's http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

But that's the thematic role you play, as an entity 'enslaved' by the G-Man. Breen comments on this in the later chapter, he accuses you of just destroying without thought, of letting humanity down.


get the picture? It's not really so clear cut. That's the worst possible example you could have given really.


You wouldn't need three pictures (including an ape) to show that the Combine are the same as humanity. Also why would the author want to demonstrate this when the people of City 17 know that the Combine Overwatch are humans because Breen's told them?

Yes, the picture is saying we're related to apes, that's the point. It shows each step of the evolutionary cycle with the Combine as the final step. We started off as apes and became the Combine.

To take it the other way doesn't make any sense - if the ape is a symbolic representation of the combine then why is a cross section of its head taken, along with the combine and human species? The diagram functions to demonstrate the differences between the species, not the similarities. If the diagram is simply there to show the differences between higher order species, then the question is for what purpose? This is a piece of graffiti, not a textbook diagram. I think people understand the differences between humans and apes.

Finally Breen actually refers to the Combine as the next evolution of humanity, and it's the theme for one of his later species, so you don't even need this diagram!

Now why you attacked the diagram literally, I don't know, because the most obvious thing to attack is the interpretative nature of the diagram. Humanity doesn't know what the Combine think of them or what their long term role is. Perhaps they're not concerned with evolving species at all, just with conquering worlds and assimilation is the most effective way of doing this. In any case you're meant to take issue with what they're doing, not necessarily the reasons behind it.

[SyntaxN]

Mountain Man said:
Exploring the abandoned houses along Highway 17 is one of my favorite parts of the game, even if it is ultimately pointless.


Yep http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
I´m a person who looks at every damn wall, house, detail etc... in games, I listend to everyone of Breens speeches, I also read every piece of info I could get in DOOM³...
But the DOOM story was finished in some way, while HL2 gives you 1000x of little hints which show you....nothing in the end because you don´t really know why that or that or that happens http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
That gives gamers the opportunity to create their own little story (for example, the gman http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)) and that might be a reason why some are so damn excited and other aren´t.
I can´t say that HL2 sucks or something, it´s great and had more gameplay than any other shooter in 2004, what don´t means it was the best of course http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
But in some ways I was disappointed, it was, again, one of those games which promised so much but many things got cut in the end, I read from ca. 35 enemies in the beginning, how many do we have now... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
It was the same with the weapons, why so few? Where are those "fun" weapons like tripmines or a sniper rifle.
The gravity gun is great, possibly it´s the greatest weapon idea since the shrinker but it don´t feels very powerfull, possibly the recoil animation or the sound aren´t hard enough but something isn´t right imo.
I also don´t like the way they changed the look of the enemies, old zombies and combines>>>new models http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mryuck.gif
They looked more dark and evil in some ways, I think those stuff was left from the "old" HL2 story (see raising the bar)

[Sayantan]

To me, the HL2 story was a collection of forced scripts to accompany the different levels, all stitched together. Everything was relevant yet the irrelevance feeling sustained. But I have to say the gameplay was immensely involving. I never cared a damn for the story coz it was kinda difficult to swallow everything in it. It was the smooth long gameplay along the levels which took me to the end. Yet once again, the ending was crap coz ending usually means end of a good story. Bad game ending has direct relationship with the story it has.

[Beelze]

avatar_58 said:
Spot on, Mblackwell. I didn't know who these characters were and just accepted that gordon did. That was a bit much to me. Was Eli the black man from the beginning of HL1? I had no clue....


From what Eli says, it's pretty clear that he was the black man who you met just before entering the test chamber.


Also am I the only one who feels the gordon - alyx relationship rushed itself at the end? I barely knew the girl and she wanted to sleep with me...


When a person tells you to be careful it doesn't mean that said person wants to copulate with you.

[Mblackwell]

It would haven't been such a problem for me not having particular motivation or set story, if my actions had actually affected the world around me. I mostly felt like a disembodied creature randomly going forward and shooting at things, and it really doesn't matter in the context of the game who or what you shoot or how as long as you keep going forward. The story will keep advancing, and in the same manner, no matter what you do. What I'm saying is it's all fine and dandy to create your own story, but I'd rather it be reflected back in the context of the game than just simply be something in my head. Or, at least, if you came to certain realizations that caused your actions to change. In the case of HL2 that doesn't really happen, except for instance when I realized it didn't matter if I let my entire squad die and I was killing myself by trying to keep them alive because they weren't actually helping much. Things like that. Mostly through the course of the game my realisation was that my only real goal was just to run and shoot.

[Mountain Man]

Mblackwell said:
Like the fact that most of the characters and exposition aren't even really in the first game.


Fair point, but I think given the direction Valve wanted to take the story, what they introduced was a reasonable compromise through implied backstory.


In the end it feels like so much is going on without you that apparently is your fault anyways, even though you didn't really have any part in it, and you are somehow just supposed to accept it and carry on. That's not story and exposition, that's typical run and gun shooting in disguise.


Ah, now you're talking about the meta story of Half-Life 2: does Gordon Freeman really have free will? It's a nice irony given his name. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

On one level, the story of Half-Life 2 is about Gordon's fight for the survival of mankind against a hostile invader. On another level, it is about the relationship between the gamer (Gordon) and the game designer (the Gman). Critiqued on the latter and Half-Life 2 becomes a fascinating post-modern story that really breaks down the 4th wall of storytelling and becomes a story about the person actually playing the game.

Some people have complained that they weren't given enough choice in Half-Life 2 (a deliberate design decision) and that they want to see future installments offer alternative paths. The beauty of Half-Life 2's set-up, however, is that no matter which path you might choose, the Gman will always be in charge. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



It seems quite obvious to me. It is apparent that the Combine's idea of humanty's next evolutionary step is to butcher them and use them for purposes presumably not in mankind's best interest.


Actually, is it that or is it showing that the combine are basically the same as humanity? Or maybe it's showing we're all related to apes? Or maybe it's saying that combine are devolving into humans and apes? Or maybe it's just pictures of the internals of higher order beings? Or maybe...

get the picture?


Yes. Even with all the clues laid out for you, there is still room for the gamer's active imagination to fill in the gaps. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

[Mblackwell]

But everything you've just said means HL2 = average shooter but with a lot of excuses.

[Cerberus_e]

Mongorian said:
I think its interesting also that another one of you commented how you didn't understand Breens speeches because you just walked by the monitors when he talked. Thats the brilliance of the no-cutscene methodology, and also sums up pretty well what Laidlaw said. If you're not interested in understanding, blast on ahead. Otherwise, there are plenty of clues, which through some scouring and theorizing, you can piece into the story.



to mongorian, mountain man, and others that blame the ones that don't like HL2's story for "not listening to breen's speeches": http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I found Breen's speeches very boring.
his speeches are so lifeless, with even less intonation as a news reader on TV.

I'm all for cutscenes without removing the player's control over his/her character, but if you have to follow to story in such a boring way, it's not fun (but I'm always interested in the story, so I HAD to listen to all his boring crap http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mryuck.gif probably the reason why I got the story on my first time through, unlike avatar)

I'm thinking prey's implementation will be much better.
I don't mean that human head is better than Valve, because I realize prey can learn out of the mistakes HL/HL2 made, it's just that what I saw in the E3 movie and all other facts about the game we know, I'm thinking they will make the story a lot more obvious.


Mountain Man said:
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4035/d3c1706a00005yy.th.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d3c1706a00005yy.jpg)




a red cross image graffiti http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif can you tell me what's written on the wall?


Mountain Man said:
Was every single question answered by the end of the game? No, but I'm not under the impression that a good story needs to.




HL2's story were only questions, no answers, that's why I don't like it.

I removed the rest of your post out of my quote because it's directed to avatar, not me http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Mountain Man said:

avatar_58 said:
I've never even seen that graffiti.


It was towards the end in the tunnel filled with radioactive waste, where you had to jump from car to car. It was on a wall out in plain view.




slightly off-topic - where do I find the old graphics for the armor wall machine? now the HL2 forum is gone I don't want to make a new thread about it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I've searched and found it was on the dog crapyard, but couldn't find it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


Mountain Man said:
Exploring the abandoned houses along Highway 17 is one of my favorite parts of the game, even if it is ultimately pointless.



I don't like doing efforts for nothing (I did search the houses though).
I like in better like it is in blood: you can go 4 directions sometimes, but when it comes down to it, you'll need to have done all ways, because of switches/keycards.
of course I don't want switches/keycards in highway 17's houses, something more modernised than that (blood is from 1997).
but like in no one lives forever 2, you have a few houses in the mountains, and you need to find 2 explosives.
you don't need to go in all houses, but you'll do it anyway, since the explosives are so well-hidden you'll have searched everywhere http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
in such cases, I felt like I was able to freely room around, without having the feeling I "lost time" (to use a hyperbolic expression in lack of a good word from my limited english vocabulary http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)
in HL2, I roamed around in highway 17's houses, only to find the uber-secret on the top floor: a pack of machinegun ammo!
hooray! too bad I have unlimited packs of those on the back of my buggy http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'll give a specific example in HL2 where it was done good, also on highway 17 (or was it sand traps already)?
you had to find 3 batteries in order to open a port, so you can proceed with your buggy http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
that was so well done, I needed to roam the little terrain, and it was fun too http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
otherwise, I would just have drove away, like I did at the part where the combine let small ramps come out of the floor when you pass by, in the hope of getting your buggy upside down (they managed to do it, but I quickly fleed away http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[FireFly]

Mblackwell said:
But everything you've just said means HL2 = average shooter but with a lot of excuses.


If that's the way you see it

A game is more than the sum of its parts and if you deconstruct Half-Life 2 into its constituents it doesn't seem terribly special, as with all art. To someone who doesn't fully appreciate the Half-Life universe, these explanations seem like excuses Valve made to explain the linear and sometimes standard gameplay.

But to someone who sees and appreciates the universe for itself, these are simply attributes of that universe.


Cerberus_e said:
HL2's story were only questions, no answers, that's why I don't like it.


Then what did you "get" that Avatar didn't?

[Mblackwell]

FireFly said:
A game is more than the sum of its parts and if you deconstruct Half-Life 2 into its constituents it doesn't seem terribly special, as with all art. To someone who doesn't fully appreciate the Half-Life universe, these explanations seem like excuses Valve made to explain the linear and sometimes standard gameplay.

But to someone who sees and appreciates the universe for itself, these are simply attributes of that universe.




In this case, no. "As with all art", if you look at HL2 from it's basics, you have a typical example of modern art: A large white canvas with a small black box painted in the middle, maybe slightly askew to the right.

Now you can call it art and inject gobs of meaning into it, as many modern art critics are keen to do, but I would simply call it crap.

In HL2's case it skirts the line. It's not completely terrible, but it's not particularly interesting either.

[Cerberus_e]

FireFly said:

Cerberus_e said:
HL2's story were only questions, no answers, that's why I don't like it.


Then what did you "get" that Avatar didn't?



when I say "answers", that automatically implies there were questions in the first place of which Valve gave me a fact http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
after HL1, my only question was what the deal with the GMan is.
all I got in HL2 were a little bit of facts, and some questions, but no answer http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mountain Man]

Mblackwell said:
But everything you've just said means HL2 = average shooter but with a lot of excuses.


No, that's not what I said. That's how you're choosing to interpret it.

[FireFly]

Mblackwell said:
In this case, no. "As with all art", if you look at HL2 from it's basics, you have a typical example of modern art: A large white canvas with a small black box painted in the middle, maybe slightly askew to the right.

Now you can call it art and inject gobs of meaning into it, as many modern art critics are keen to do, but I would simply call it crap.

In HL2's case it skirts the line. It's not completely terrible, but it's not particularly interesting either.


Yes, but your interpretation is no more correct then theirs. You call it crap because you don't see what they see, but you could wake up one day suffering from some strange mental condition and realise that this "small black box" is actually a brilliant metaphor for poststructuralism.

Now in this case very few people can see what modern art critics see, so the rest of the populace is content with calling modern art crap. However, as the art becomes less abstract more people will be understand and appreciate it, so it will obtain a reputation in its own right. Half-Life 2 is like that.

You might not be able to appreciate Gordon as the ultimate anti-hero, blessed with ridiculous (but unexplained) power, praised by everyone and understood by no one, (not even the player), liberating by doing nothing other than following a set path created by the G-Man - but others can. I think it's great that after all these years of stupid one dimension action heroes we finally get to play as a character that is 0 dimensional! A huge black hole in the story fabric, a giant unknown.

[Mountain Man]

^^^
That pretty well sums things up.

[laffer]

I don't see why it's something new that we don't know much about the main character.
When I played Super Mario Bros for the NES, I really had no clue who that fat guy with a cap on was.
The same can be said for tons of game characters.

[Mblackwell]

FireFly said:
Yes, but your interpretation is no more correct then theirs. You call it crap because you don't see what they see, but you could wake up one day suffering from some strange mental condition and realise that this "small black box" is actually a brilliant metaphor for poststructuralism.

Now in this case very few people can see what modern art critics see, so the rest of the populace is content with calling modern art crap.



Oh, I see what they see, I still call bullshit. I went to art school as well you know. And, I can tell you I'm not alone when I say in general I absolutely hate modern art. You want to talk about things being representative rather than directly shown/stated, having unknowns... frankly I was always a fan of the impressionistic period.



A block box in the middle of some paper is just that, a black box in the middle of some paper. You can "infuse" as much meaning as you want into it, but in the end how much thought did it REALLY take? I could squiggle afew lines and call it a representation of the disconstituency in post-modern environmental awareness expressed through the mind of the average nubian think-tank organisation in relation to their blurred sense of righteousness and possible implied exploitation methods....

but all I did was squiggle some lines on paper.... even if they were damned good squiggles.

HL2 is more than some squiggles, mind you, but it is certainly no Monet (http://codinginparadise.org/weblog/images/monet2.jpg).

[Paroxysm]

Mblackwell said:
In this case, no. "As with all art", if you look at HL2 from it's basics, you have a typical example of modern art: A large white canvas with a small black box painted in the middle, maybe slightly askew to the right.

Now you can call it art and inject gobs of meaning into it, as many modern art critics are keen to do, but I would simply call it crap.

In HL2's case it skirts the line. It's not completely terrible, but it's not particularly interesting either.



I think all you shown here is that you don't understand art. And such a piece is hardly a typical example of modernist painting anyway.

[Paroxysm]

Mblackwell said:

FireFly said:
Yes, but your interpretation is no more correct then theirs. You call it crap because you don't see what they see, but you could wake up one day suffering from some strange mental condition and realise that this "small black box" is actually a brilliant metaphor for poststructuralism.

Now in this case very few people can see what modern art critics see, so the rest of the populace is content with calling modern art crap.



Oh, I see what they see, I still call bullshit. I went to art school as well you know. And, I can tell you I'm not alone when I say in general I absolutely hate modern art. You want to talk about things being representative rather than directly shown/stated, having unknowns... frankly I was always a fan of the impressionistic period.



A block box in the middle of some paper is just that, a black box in the middle of some paper. You can "infuse" as much meaning as you want into it, but in the end how much thought did it REALLY take? I could squiggle afew lines and call it a representation of the disconstituency in post-modern environmental awareness expressed through the mind of the average nubian think-tank organisation in relation to their blurred sense of righteousness and possible implied exploitation methods....

but all I did was squiggle some lines on paper.... even if they were damned good squiggles.

HL2 is more than some squiggles, mind you, but it is certainly no Monet (http://codinginparadise.org/weblog/images/monet2.jpg).



Well since you say you went to art school you should know that "infusing" such an image with meaning is total crap and not the point. It's about your reaction as an audience.

[Mblackwell]

Then you don't understand how modern art works generally http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif. We have quite a large gallery that displays quite an array of it where I live. It's not all terrible, mind you, but most of the things that have real meaning and feeling behind them are generally created in a slightly more traditional sense. The problem with a large chunk of modern art, and modern art critics, is meaning is infused rather than naturally created, if you understand my meaning. The reaction of the audience is only part of the point of art. It's more about expressing an idea in a meaningful and interesting way.

[Mblackwell]

Paroxysm said:
I think all you shown here is that you don't understand art. And such a piece is hardly a typical example of modernist painting anyway.



Funny thing to say considering I'm something of an "artist"* http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif



*though I somewhat despise the term because of it's oft pretensiousness, haha that's one thing they teach you to do really well at art school... be a snob http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[laffer]

I don't like modern art either. At all.

[Sayantan]

Mblackwell said:
but it is certainly no Monet (http://codinginparadise.org/weblog/images/monet2.jpg).



Beautiful. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif

[Paroxysm]

Mblackwell said:

Paroxysm said:
I think all you shown here is that you don't understand art. And such a piece is hardly a typical example of modernist painting anyway.



Funny thing to say considering I'm something of an "artist"* http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif



*though I somewhat despise the term because of it's oft pretensiousness, haha that's one thing they teach you to do really well at art school... be a snob http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



So am I. Saying it doesn't mean shit.

[laffer]

I think a whole lot of modern art stinks. Like this praised picture I saw, all it was was a yellow straight line dividing a red background in two. That was it! I could've made that easily.
If you have a name in art, you can pretty much do what the hell you want and people will still praise the deep quality in your "art".

[Malgon]

Imo, Half Life 2 is venturing into new areas of FPS gaming in terms of storytelling, and in some ways I like it and in other ways I don't.
For example the fiction (the HL universe), is strong and powerful yet subtle in its way, in that it doesn't really feel to cliched or overbearing. The characters help the interaction, and fit into the structure of a downtrodden and bleak and oppressive society. The setting and feel of the whole world sucked me right in.
The presentation of the story of you being in the game, and thus not knowing everything, unless you are very obervant, helps the immersiveness, as this is the same feeling you get when walking into an unkown situation. It can prove be an interesting way of storytelling. You need to be paying attention to get the whole story.
I would like that the story was told a bit more traditionally, and that the details that you search for are additional information rather than being the whole story. But then this goes against the whole being in an unknown situation.
I would still prefer more like Planescapes method whereupon the story is told to you in fragmented pieces, but you are challenged to piece it together and by searching it helps you to understand the world and its intricacies. You still roughly know whats going on, but if you delve you get the full scope.
HL 2 sometimes felt more like you had to delve just to know even what was really going on. It worked in some ways in keeping with the whole immersiveness factor, but in other ways it didn't in that you feel a bit disjointed from it all, which is a bit sad because not everyone gets to appreciate the feel and impact of it, because they didn't want to search that much just to know where it was that they fit in.
I think it is a little overrated for what it is, but I still respect Laidlaws style as it is unique in his approach to storytelling in FPS. I also respect that to other people it clicked, but to me it just seemed a bit bland. It still was a very enjoyable game, and I am intrigued to see how the characters are to be fleshed out in the subsequent chapter of the Half Life universe. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cerberus_e]

laffer said:
I think a whole lot of modern art stinks. Like this praised picture I saw, all it was was a yellow straight line dividing a red background in two. That was it! I could've made that easily.
If you have a name in art, you can pretty much do what the hell you want and people will still praise the deep quality in your "art".



I agree.
at school in esthetics (basically just about all forms of art: music, paintings, ...) we saw a video of someone dumping a lot of bricks from the crapyard in an area with lots of houses.
the bricks used to be from a building.

he calls it "art" because the house went away, then later returned "in a different form" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

I don't call that art, even with that kind of explanation.
it's like "let's do something simple, we'll find an explanation later" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Balgias]

laffer said:
That scene was cut due the hydra not looking cool when it attacked the player.



Whats the hydra http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[laffer]

The blue thing http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cerberus_e]

Balgias, go to your preferred game video download website (mine is gamesdomain).
download the hl2-tunnels.exe bink movie.
after watching it, you know as much as we all do.

[Blade Nightflame]

.. This is the best discussion I've heard about Half Life 2.