Ok, why not multiplayer?

[Salv]

Ok I know all has been said and done about the topic before but heres what I think anyway.
Many worry about how to get MP to be a multiplayer game, I say, strip away bullet-time making the whole thing real-time (just like CS and all the others are), but leave the dodges moves, give player the liberty to change from 3rd PS to FPS view, (that can't be too hard, theres little mod out there that does that already) create some multiplayer maps, (thats not too much trouble). And finally create the MP code,I guess this is the hard part, but take this two very important things in count:
1-You (3DS & Remedy guys) have the engine finish after all that hard work, so the big "obstacle" is over and done with, now why not just expand on it?
2-The code doesnt have to be ultra-efficient to get the best out of internet games, after all, when I want to play CS (or any other multiplayer game for that matter) I go to the closest internet-shop (which are LAN based and flourishing all over the place + cheap) and play there, and forget about laggy internet games where the guy with the best connection gets all the frags.
Some guy said that it wouldnt work anyway and that CS was just a one in a million phenomenon, I think NOT, all CS did was:
1-Use a quite good engine (half-life's which came from Quake2, old engine by todays standards)
2-Use real, cutting-edge weapons.
3-Use all of this on a real-world platform that can be accepted and is very sticky to players. Terrorists VS SWAT teams. (it wouldnt be the same with bus drivers VS KKK members) so for Max Payne this could mean the Mob VS NYPD. or junkies VS neo-nazis. You think about it.
Puff.. do you agree? no? why not? / yes? excelent!

[Lucky]

Been voiced before - almost exactly in fact.

But adding multiplayer after a game ships won't be much good - look at Deus Ex.

[George Broussard]

Why no multiplayer?

1) Remedy wanted to focus on the single player experience and not be distracted with multiplayer.

2) There has never been a successful 3rd person multiplayer game - and we saw no reason to try to compete with popular FPS games.

3) Bullet Time cannot be done well in multiplayer (to our satisfaction), and Max without bullet time would be just another 3rd person game in multiplayer. I point to the number of people playing Fakk 2 or Rune on line as a reason to not do this.

[Salv]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>1) Remedy wanted to focus on the single player experience and not be distracted with multiplayer.<hr></blockquote>
Thats fair enough.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>2) There has never been a successful 3rd person multiplayer game - and we saw no reason to try to compete with popular FPS games.<hr></blockquote>
Thats why I said incorporate a first-person view in the first place, and there's always a reason to compete, maybe you thought you couldnt outdo CS but I think Max has it all to go to the top, if you said that in a monetary sort of view, I guess you have your reasons.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>3) Bullet Time cannot be done well in multiplayer (to our satisfaction)<hr></blockquote>
Thats why I said STRIP OFF bullet-time and just leave the dodges.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>and Max without bullet time would be just another 3rd person game in multiplayer. I point to the number of people playing Fakk 2 or Rune on line as a reason to not do this.<hr></blockquote>
Why dont you let the engine do the talking there?
Obviously, Max's engine is far more advanced than CS's and many other games out there and using photo-realistic pictures furthest the scope, basically, Max Payne looks far more realistic than CS and that was why people got so addicted to CS in the first place, but now ,eventough is still going strong, its starting to look more like just a game than the "real thing" and thats where Max has the upper-hand.
Now how is going to do in sales?, well I dont know, I guess you can never really predict that, you can only hope images/icons/smile.gif if it has that special feel to it, you can bet it'll do great.

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: Salv ]

[Mr. Bum]

*cough*http://www.guineapiggangsters.cjb.net/*cough

[Ninja]

George- according to the Remedy Max Payne page, it said that full multi-player along with single-player was planned, then they had to abandon it for the single-player experience.

How exactly would they have planned to do this? I mean, no offesne to you or Remedy but with Payne, I would have imagined a problem with bullet-time and MP as soon as it was mentioned.

Also, there is no multi-player code in the Max Payne engine. In Dues Ex it was based off a modified Unreal engine which had netcode already in it.

Unless you like adding in a massive load of programming work in an add-on I don't see it happening.

[Salv]

hey ninja dude, why dont you read the bloody posts before you post crap?

[Kungfu_Kenobi]

I could be wrong, but if memory serves me, bullet-time wasn't part of the original plan. So multiplayer was still being looked into. But when they added bullet-time, they realized multiplayer would be impossible, and turned thier focus away from multiplayer, toward single player.

[Salv]

People doesnt seem to be reading the posts, Kenobi, good point, but...we all know that.
Can you just turn bullet-time off when in multiplayer?

[Yuri]

w/out bullet time MP in multplayer wouldn't be greatly satisfying like it is in single player...

[The Fragmaster]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bum:
*cough*http://www.guineapiggangsters.cjb.net/*cough<hr></blockquote>

Uhmm, htf do those guys even plan to do that? Just looking at their website it seems like they don't even know what they're doing images/icons/tongue.gif

[Salv]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>w/out bullet time MP in multplayer wouldn't be greatly satisfying like it is in single player...<hr></blockquote>
Its exatly the opposite, WITH bullet-time multplayer wouldn't be greatly satisfying. Who wants to play something that goes into bullet-time everytime some player activates it? Its crazy!

[Ninja]

Salv- i did.

I was referring to the Remedy page and I was asking as in the ORIGINAL CONCEPt listed on the Remedy page, it mentioned "full multi-player features"

Since KungFu Kenobi answered my question, I'm satisfied now.

Posting crap? WTF do you call this? Flame bait? images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Btw, I've been here for some time and i've seen some crap posted here so I'd be a bit more careful before you start slinging accusations about.

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Ninja ]

[SkavenRMD]

To be more exact, the multiplayer was ignored quite a while before Bullet Time™ became a part of the plan.

Multiplayer is a fundamental engine design issue. To add multiplayer, the whole engine would need to be restructured (unless we write a horrible cardboard, string & bubble gum kludge, which we don't want to do). Bullet time or any other gameplay details are not the issue here, so speculating about bullet time vs multiplayer is useless.

In short: Multiplayer is not going to happen. It's not worth the trouble.

[Salv]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>In short: Multiplayer is not going to happen. It's not worth the trouble.<hr></blockquote>
Lets be frank, basically, its not profitable. The amount of money that goes into making it wont come back, not mentioning the effort.

Oh what the heck Im a not a multiplayer guy anyway. I just thought it would be cool.
When I bought Max Payne I didnt even know it existed till that day, I had the chance to buy the complete half-life pack or platinum pack and instead I went with Max just because I thought "I have to see this" and left Half-life back in the store.
One thing is for sure, you MUST deliver more of the same! more Payne! images/icons/smile.gif only next time make it longer (you have the engine done, all you got to do is levels and come up with a story as good as the first one), the general feeling in the public was that it was somewhat short.
Finally, is nice to see you guys on the forums, supporting the community, good on you.

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Salv ]

[Kungfu_Kenobi]

You know, the same thing happened to me! I had never even heard of Max Payne before the day I got it. I was choosing between Max Payne, and Green Berets expansion for MythII.

Against the advice of my girlfriend (Who saw the screenshots on the MP box and said "He kinda reminds me of you. You should get this one") I got Green Berets (Because we were sick of playing RTS games as if they were 'Nam, and were ready for one actually set in 'Nam)

I picked up the Green Berets box, paid for it, and she picked up Max Payne. She said "You're not leaving without Max Payne, even if I have to buy it for you." I asked if she was sure, but didn't argue when she was. Hey, any girl who wants to buy me video games is alright. images/icons/smile.gif

I've never even played Green Berets.... images/icons/smile.gif

[Salv]

Get out of here, are you sure shes not your invisible friend? images/icons/grin.gif
You got lucky.

[Kungfu_Kenobi]

Pretty sure...I got pictures (see Who bought MP without ever hearing about it.)

[Salv]

I know, the pics you posted on the other forum you made, Im gonna check them out. BTW congrats in making the Kung Fu version, kicks ass.

[Kungfu_Kenobi]

That was Ken_Y not me. I just happen to have Kungfu in my name.

If you want to find out were the name came from, search for Kungfu_Kenobi's Big Adventure. Not me either, but I liked the name.

[Guest]

Sorry to disagree with you GB, but your wrong on the statement.

"2) There has never been a successful 3rd person multiplayer game - and we saw no reason to try to compete with popular FPS games."

Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the sith were both very popular third person shooters and pretty good in multiplayer too, whether it was with guns or lightsabers, its just a good example that 3rd person shooters can have excellent multiplayer.

[Kirk]

Multiplayer would defeat the purpose of having a storyline in the game. Adding or having multiplayer would just make this game another Quake style clone. The game market is flooded with them allready.

Graphics are simply too beatiful and detailed and online game play would be horrible. Thats why other online games primarily the larger player amount games have to restrict graphic quality to ensure playability is good.

This is the first single player game i have bought in a long time. Most every other game i have is multiplayer capable. It was really refreshing for me to have good solid game play not restricted or affected by a network connection.

They hinted at the end of the credits as to Max Payne returning in the future. I am looking forward to it if in fact its a possiblity.

Storylines add flavor to the game verses simple point and shoot. That is what you would have if this game was multiplayer capable. I got enough of them to play allready.

Kirk

[Salv]

Overlord22, True, JK and MotS were and still are to some instance popular in multiplayer, and you can play them first or third person view, eventhough most people use 3 person to see what going on at your back.
And Kirk, graphics has nothing to do with being crappy on the net, the PC takes care of graphics and the game's engine takes does the connection to the net.

[Spazer]

i swear to god and the heavens if i hear one more person ****ing compare counterstrike and max payne, or want max payne to be more like counterstrike i am going to ****ing scream!!!!!!!

[Spazer]

one more thing. this is another plea from me to remedy/3dr to NOT turn max payne into counterstrike. or another one of these "realistic" games. the majority of mods coming out now is that crap. i thank god for remedy/3dr for making max payne. and the mod development team of the "Action" mods.

http://aq2.action-web.net
http://ahl.action-web.net
http://aut.action-web.net

if it wasnt for these guys i would probably shoot myself.

[Sloth33]

i dont see the big deal with multiplayer either. Broussard brings up the best point, how many people out there are playing Rune?

Multiplayer might be something you try once or twice, but i think most people will end up going back to CS, Quake, or UT. For example I bought ST Voyager, played MP a few times, thought eh. and went back to UT.

[SkavenRMD]

Yes. Only if you focus on multiplayer, it will be interesting enough to maintain a player community.

It takes a "critical mass". Some single player games may actually have a good multiplayer, but because it's not the main thing of the game, not enough people will gather together to play it, and the community will never form.

[Guest]

For whatever reasons multiplayer was chopped from Max Payne allowing Remedy to focus their efforts on the single player experience. Some of these reasons may be down to the research and development phase being longer than anticipated, inexperience, or any number of other reasons.


Given that multiplayer was not included within the game engine or the game enabled them to focus and produce a better game within the time period. If multiplayer hadn't been dropped the release date would have been this time next year, particularly as it would have required a complete set of multiplayer levels in addition to what was produced for the single player. The addition of Co-op playing would have presented another challenge that would have added to the development time.


There are a number of arguments being mixed up here. You need to seperate development time, single player, multiplayer, and engine.


Development Time

Development time is a combination of experience, resources, and the game design. While Remedies lack of experience and modest resources meant the game probably couldn't be everything they wanted it to be, it wasn't a bad effort. Sure, it could have been better, and a hypothetical "dream team" could have produced something better in less time. But, Max Payne as we know it is what we got for better or worse.


Single Player

The single player experience is one you're all familiar with.


Multiplayer

The multiplayer experience is one you have to consider seperately from the single player. How could they have implemented it, what would the Max Payne engine brought to the genre, would you have been happier to see resources drained from elsewhere to produce a multiplayer game? Given the criticisms about Max Payne been short and empty from some quarters, I don't think so. Better they do one thing well than two things badly.


Game Engine

Game engine considerations revolve around licensing and community TC production. Ultimately this boils down to whether there are enough gamers out there to support a multiplayer game. While this is probably not a big issue for TC builders it is for professional game companies who are investing real money.


My Opinion

While Max Payne was not a perfect game, length, content, interactivity, being my main areas of criticism. Multiplayer was not something I was able to get to worked up about. I'm sick to the back teeth with hearing about multiplayer games as I personally prefer the single player game because they can give me a more meaningful experience.


Looking to the future, multiplayer must be supported in a general purpose engine if it is to succeed. I suspect Remedy know this and are working to correct this omission. Another thought, just because games like Rune do not have a huge multiplayer following does not mean that a third person multiplayer game is incapable of having a huge following. The present situation with games of this type is probably more to do with nobody coming up with the hit design yet, questions of timing, and market readiness.


The fact that Max Payne lacked multiplayer is a shame. But, you can't beat Remedy over the head with it, neither can Remedy or 3D Realms beat the TC community over the head for wanting it. What is required is both sides of the gaming fraternity to listen to each other and find a mutually agreeable way forward, otherwise that world beating third person multiplayer game will never get made.


- Dist images/icons/smile.gif rtedReality

[Vampire]

I'd just like to add that one aspect people keep seem to be overlooking when multiplayer is talked about is that MP already has an excellent system to manage bullet time in a multiplayer environment. The system of 'rooms' in MP would perfectly enable bullet time to be localized to certain areas of a level and only affect those in and entering those areas. Within the areas, the idea would be that if someone had bullet-time enabled then time would slow down for everyone in the area, but only those using bullet time would gain the moving/shooting advantages. Those who weren't would be slowed down greatly.

Just a thought.

[Spazer]

well whats done is done. there will be no multiplayer in max payne. i could only say possibly max payne 2 (if there will be) or an expansion pack. trying to get multiplayer to work would **** up the single player experiance.

what i recommend to remedy: implement multiplayer, ax bullet time and just have regular dives and dodges and make these people shut up.

btw: i can speel worth a shit.

[ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: Spazer ]

[biXen]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Spazer:
well whats done is done. there will be no multiplayer in max payne. i could only say possibly max payne 2 (if there will be) or an expansion pack. trying to get multiplayer to work would **** up the single player experiance.

what i recommend to remedy: implement multiplayer, ax bullet time and just have regular dives and dodges and make these people shut up.

btw: i can speel worth a shit.

[ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: Spazer ]<hr></blockquote>

Bringing this topic to life was the smart thing to do images/icons/rolleyes.gif

But I don't think Remedy will make multiplayer in Max Payne 2, and I hope they won't. I'm glad someone still wants to give us the great single player experience. Playing against crazed fourteen year olds with nothing else to do but playing multiplayer games tend to be a bit boring when you can only play 1 hour a day yourself...

[suizid]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Salv:
1-Use a quite good engine (half-life's which came from Quake2, old engine by todays standards)
<hr></blockquote>

...Surely schome mistake?...Half-life is a heavily modified Quake ONE engine images/icons/smile.gif

[Joe Siegler]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>For whatever reasons multiplayer was chopped from Max Payne allowing Remedy to focus their efforts on the single player experience.<hr></blockquote>

Uh CultureShock - that WAS the reason. There's no deeper meaning. Period.

[Homoludens]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by biXen:
Playing against crazed fourteen year olds with nothing else to do but playing multiplayer games tend to be a bit boring when you can only play 1 hour a day yourself...<hr></blockquote>

http://www.plauder-smilies.de/laugh.gif Oh God, that's so cruel of you! But you forgot to include the word 'pubescent'. Sorry...I'm, um... am actually a grownup. (Hee, hee, gotta love all you teenyboppers)

[Mark Novak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Salv:

Lets be frank, basically, its not profitable. The amount of money that goes into making it wont come back, not mentioning the effort.<hr></blockquote>

My thoughts EXACTLY. You could almost accuse the producers of the game to be selfish.

Comparing Max Payne to Sierra's Counter-strike:
- Bigger Price tag.
- Less Multiplayer.

The extra time and effort could have easily gone into making a multiplayer version. Have multiplayer a whole seperate branch of the game. Take out the 3rd person. Take out bullet time. You can still keep the focus on single player, just have an extra few people put aside to work on multiplayer. And the die hard single player people can just totally ignore the multiplayer option in whole.

[biXen]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mark Novak:


My thoughts EXACTLY. You could almost accuse the producers of the game to be selfish.

Comparing Max Payne to Sierra's Counter-strike:
- Bigger Price tag.
- Less Multiplayer.

The extra time and effort could have easily gone into making a multiplayer version. Have multiplayer a whole seperate branch of the game. Take out the 3rd person. Take out bullet time. You can still keep the focus on single player, just have an extra few people put aside to work on multiplayer. And the die hard single player people can just totally ignore the multiplayer option in whole.<hr></blockquote>

They don't want to allright? You have your multiplayer games, you can't get everything in one place. You don't get DVD's at Mc Donalds, so why nag them about it? The true gamelovers have to accept that Max Payne delivers action with 3rd person and a damn cool bullettime. Take that and the story away and believe it or not, it's a normal FPS with good graphics. Now I don't know about you but I'd jump right back to OFP after playing it for 30 minutes. It wouldn't even be challenging. Multiplayer has to be innovative these days, now that also MMORPGS are coming... this discussion is over, you don't have anything good to come with, so just forget it... There is no extra effort or time, they worked their ass off for 4 years to give you a good single player experience, you'll have to except that. If you feel the game was too short then it's your own problem, all the reviews said that. It's a damn good experience, the best, for 10 hours, so for me it didn't matter, I got what I expected, blame yourself, not anyone else. And with the TC's coming you are gonna get your value's worth, even if Take2 overpriced it, all games are overpriced in Norway anyway so it doesn't matter... We pay over $50 for every game, I don't see anyone whining about it...

[Komb.at]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mark Novak:


...and we don't get a whole package.<hr></blockquote>

Depends on your definition of "a whole package". You could as well want to have the source code, 500 maps, voice control system, VR goggles and such, and calling it "not a whole package"

You saw the features, you saw the price, you agreed the deal and payed. Your fault if you're unsatisfied with the features

[Mark Novak]

....... I feel like im talking to a brick wall.

Does anyone here understand what I'm saying?

[Komb.at]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mark Novak:

Does anyone here understand what I'm saying?<hr></blockquote>

do you? graemlins/dopefish.gif

[Mark Novak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by biXen:
[QB]
They don't want to allright? You have your multiplayer games, you can't get everything in one place. You don't get DVD's at Mc DonaldsQB]<hr></blockquote>

At mcdonalds you get more for your money. In this case we are getting less. We spend twice as much as counter-strike costs and we don't get a whole package. You totally missed my point images/icons/rolleyes.gif .

[biXen]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mark Novak:


At mcdonalds you get more for your money. In this case we are getting less. We spend twice as much as counter-strike costs and we don't get a whole package. You totally missed my point images/icons/rolleyes.gif .<hr></blockquote>

Well I dunno about you, but I got a package, it even included a mouse mat. Who says a great game has to have multiplayer? The average rating of this game is 91%, how can you decide that it doesn't have what it needs when the whole gaming community is against you? PUHLEAASE... images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[Hamster]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mark Novak:
....... I feel like im talking to a brick wall.

Does anyone here understand what I'm saying?<hr></blockquote>

I do. I understood you were a Troll when you said everything went wrong and then went on into the extreme. It's not possible. You should be banned for lying about your problems.

[Theseus314]

Should a game be required to implement multiplayer if *you* the "gamer" wants it... I think not.

[RollingBrass]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mark Novak:


At mcdonalds you get more for your money. In this case we are getting less. We spend twice as much as counter-strike costs and we don't get a whole package. You totally missed my point images/icons/rolleyes.gif .<hr></blockquote>You are comparing a food product to purchasing a license to use software (which is what it is, you don't actually "own" the game).
Now I've seen everything. images/icons/rolleyes.gif
When I want to play a game, I don't jam a Big Mac in my CD-ROM drive. If I'm hungry, I don't eat my Max Payne game manual.
You don't specify how you can get "more for your money" from McDonalds. Both things provide entirely different ways of satiating you, entirely different purposes, and entirely different ways of judging prices (a team of 30 developers weren't making your cheeseburger for 4 years; harvesting the wheat to make the bun from scratch, running it through QA to make sure it didn't explode in a maelstrom of fire and lettuce when you picked it up, genetically creating test-tube cows for the meat, or taking a half-a-year to create the perfect "special sauce"
Also, Counter-Strike is priced less than Max Payne because it was created by individual hobbyists, and it's just a multiplayer mod. Multiplayer mods are, most of the time, much more shallow than single-player, and it doesn't take as much to develop as a single-player game (they don't develop engines for multiplayer mods, for example).
Max Payne was created by professional, paid game developers who created their own engine for the game.

[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: RollingBrass ]

[Komb.at]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by RollingBrass:
a team of 30 developers weren't making your cheeseburger for 4 years; harvesting the wheat to make the bun from scratch, running it through QA to make sure it didn't explode in a maelstrom of fire and lettuce when you picked it up, genetically creating test-tube cows for the meat, or taking a half-a-year to create the perfect "special sauce"

<hr></blockquote>

rofl

[RollingBrass]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mark Novak:
Rolling Brass, try reading the posts before you make your idiotic reply. He compared it to McDonalds, I through it back in his face.
<hr></blockquote>You threw it back in his face with another idiotic reply. BiXen was absolutely right, anyway. They never advertised it as a multiplayer game, they didn't print that it was a multiplayer game on the box, so why are you feel so ripped off that you bought the game expecting multiplayer?
Try reading my post...towards the end. It refutes your little non-McDonalds (talking about Counter-Strike) price analogy .

[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: RollingBrass ]

[Mark Novak]

Rolling Brass, try reading the posts before you make your idiotic reply. He compared it to McDonalds, I through it back in his face.

Lets try to be a little more mature on the subject. In your last post, Rolling Brass, you actually took the time to compare Bic Macs to Software.

[Outbreak]

Ok you guys dont wanna waste your time on makeing a multiplayer version of max payen cous you want to focus on the single player version. that is fair enough cous you guys want to make a killer single player. But you can do one thing, release the god damn source code so people can have a go and make one themself I can almost ALMOST guarantee that someone will take it that has the experience to make a multi source code out of the sucker. Dont hogg the knowledge and give out the source code not only for multiplayer changes but so Total Conversions can have the opportunity to have full freedom to make a killer game. You said you support mods and shit but you tie us up, you dont show it very good. Release it

[RollingBrass]

The game is still selling a lot and they are going to be making a sequel using the same engine. Releasing the source code would not be a good idea.

[biXen]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Outbreak:
Ok you guys dont wanna waste your time on makeing a multiplayer version of max payen cous you want to focus on the single player version. that is fair enough cous you guys want to make a killer single player. But you can do one thing, release the god damn source code so people can have a go and make one themself I can almost ALMOST guarantee that someone will take it that has the experience to make a multi source code out of the sucker. Dont hogg the knowledge and give out the source code not only for multiplayer changes but so Total Conversions can have the opportunity to have full freedom to make a killer game. You said you support mods and shit but you tie us up, you dont show it very good. Release it<hr></blockquote>

Considering they released a shitload of editing tools the source code is the only thing truly theirs. They can't give out things like that, at least not before it's a bit aged. People still make mods for Duke3d, you gotta give it time. There's huge possibilities for yourself, but just forget the multiplayer, it won't happen... luckily...

[Outbreak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by biXen:


We pay over $50 for every game, I don't see anyone whining about it...<hr></blockquote>

We really pay to much and we earn less money than most countries. Damn and we even pay more than you do. Talk about a shitty country we live in, but hey THATS LIFE

[The Dude]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Outbreak:
Talk about a shitty country we live in, but hey THATS LIFE<hr></blockquote>

You must be the first Norweigian person I've ever heard say this. Every Norweigian uni student says it's great, but maybe it's because they're usually here on a government scholarship. images/icons/smile.gif

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by RollingBrass:
running it through QA to make sure it didn't explode in a maelstrom of fire and lettuce when you picked it up<hr></blockquote>

It's about friggin' time someone did, I've had it up to here with those damn exploding burgers. No wonder I've switched to pizzas. graemlins/hhg.gif

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suizid:
...Surely schome mistake?...Half-life is a heavily modified Quake ONE engine images/icons/smile.gif <hr></blockquote>

I think they started with that, but changed to Quake II later.

Edit Nope, Quake I. Looks so good I actually thought it was based on the Quake II engine.

[Death Mage]

Wow. Somebody else finally acknowladges that Half-Life was originall Quake I's engine. This is a day for celebration!


IMHO, Max Payne would have been cool with multi-player. It is the #1 way to get some massive replay value out of a game, and a lot of mods would be specifically designed for it. Even with the necessary lack of Bullet-Time in multi-player, Max-Payne could have ruled.

However, I think it's the whole Bulet-Time issue that caused them to remove it. I mean here they make a really neat little bit with that, and it would have been ignored for 99% of the play. *shrug*

Oh well, one can only hope that MultiPayne actually works, or that Max Payne 2 has it. As good as Max Payne is, it doesn't have enough lasting power for me, and most likely a majority of gamers anymore, without it. True, there are the die-hard freaks that would gladly play a game over and over and over in SP dispite having memorized every aspect of it... (like I have with some games, most notibally Hexen 2 and DN3D) but a vast majority would play it at most 3 times, then forget about it.

[Death Mage]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trashing the game. Max Payne as it is is a great game. I just won't be paying $50 for a sequil though if it's going to be SP only agian. But that's just me.

As far as my calling it "removed", just bad wording. I know it was never there.

[Salv]

With that attitude its hard to believe you buy stuff at all.

[SkavenRMD]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>However, I think it's the whole Bulet-Time issue that caused them to remove it. I mean here they make a really neat little bit with that, and it would have been ignored for 99% of the play. *shrug*<hr></blockquote>

For your information, the multiplayer code was not "removed" - it never was there to begin with.

Bullet Time wasn't the only reason. Creating network code takes a lot of time and effort, and we decided to leave it out and focus on the single player experience.

Also, network code is such a fundamental part of the engine that the whole engine must be structured with net code in mind. Due to this, our next game won't have multiplayer either. However, if we decide to create a new engine sometime in the future, we may consider network code as well.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>but a vast majority would play it at most 3 times, then forget about it.<hr></blockquote>

That tends to be the nature of games that have a story. If you want to tell the players a strong coherent story, you need to limit the player's choices (unless you're willing to go through a lot of extra effort to cover all the choices and their consequences like they did with Deus Ex). The aim is a strong one-time experience instead of multiple diluted experiences - just like a good movie. Seeing it once or twice is enough.

And hey, if you liked it a lot, you may get back to it later on, after you've played other games and done other things. You're bound to get bored if you play the same (story-driven) game - or watch the same movie - three times in a row.

[PatrickBateman]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
Yes. Only if you focus on multiplayer, it will be interesting enough to maintain a player community.

It takes a "critical mass". Some single player games may actually have a good multiplayer, but because it's not the main thing of the game, not enough people will gather together to play it, and the community will never form.<hr></blockquote>

One of the best SP games ever, Half-Life (to which Max Payne owes much), has a great multiplayer community, probably the biggest in the world more than 3 years after release. HL's scripted sequences, seamless maps, etc, revolutionized single-player gaming.

BUT the original deathmatch multiplayer included with HL sucks. It wasn't until TFC came out, then CS, and now DoD that the community really took off. Both CS and DoD were made by independent developers working for free.

You could have given SDK's to certain groups before release, released Max Payne with a rudimentary multiplayer system, and refined it with later patches and updates. Which is exactly what Valve did.

Can you imagine how many more copies MP would have sold if it had "MATRIX MULTIPLAYER INCLUDED!" on the box? I would have bought several, just on general principle. And you wouldn't have had to do that much more pre-release work.

Why is bullet-time impossible for multiplayer? Because you have two connected computers running at different speeds? There is a Half-Life speed cheat that allowed people to move much faster than everyone else, IIRC by changing the speed at which time passes on their client. Couldn't that be exploited for bullet-time?

That said, Max Payne is an awesome game which I enjoyed greatly. It's just was well that there's no multiplayer, because with a matrix mod with bullet-time, I would probably have died from lack of nourishment after playing it for 72 hours straight.
images/icons/grin.gif

[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: PatrickBateman ]

[SkavenRMD]

See my later post, above. Bullet Time is not the issue.

[PatrickBateman]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
See my later post, above. Bullet Time is not the issue.<hr></blockquote>

Um...ok. I didn't say it was. I just asked why it's impossible.

I was just illustrating that it is possible to have a kick-ass single-player game and a good multiplayer game. They're not mutually exclusive. Yes, I realize that the engine used for Half-Life came with (crappy) netcode, but Valve did practically no work on it for the initial release. The thriving community is due to the continued support by Valve of the engine and the mod teams, post-release.

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: PatrickBateman ]

[Guest]

Hmm.. Will the next game use the same engine?

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: Prettz ]

[SkavenRMD]

Yes. With some improvements and tweaks, of course. But no network code.

[biXen]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
But no network code.<hr></blockquote>

Wuhuuuuuuuuu !!! images/icons/grin.gif

[gamemastern64]

Well I would like to see a Multiplayer Max Payne. I would buy it.

[The Baskinator]

*yawn*

[Homoludens]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by gamemastern64:
Well I would like to see a Multiplayer Max Payne. I would buy it.<hr></blockquote>

Okay, sorry, but someone has to ask it:

gamemastern64, if you truly were Max Payne's bitch, you'd buy Max Payne 2 anyway, right? Right? images/icons/frown.gif

[The Baskinator]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Homoludens:


Okay, sorry, but someone has to ask it:

gamemastern64, if you truly were Max Payne's bitch, you'd buy Max Payne 2 anyway, right? Right? images/icons/frown.gif <hr></blockquote>

Can I be Max's bitch? images/icons/grin.gif

[Homoludens]

Awwww....http://www.plauder-smilies.de/remybussi.gif

[Guest]

This gets old. I remember back when Fallout I came out and on the message boards was the same stupid thing. Why no Multiplayer? How many games with a 3D envirement don't have multiplayer?
Can people who don't give a damn about muliplayer have this one game? Why not have diversity in the gaming world? I applaud remedy for puting out this game. They must have done something right because it seems to be selling just fine without multiplayer. Hopefully, other game companys will follow their example and use game engines that enhance gameplay, not just make multiplayer possible. There are lots of FPS's out there to run around and shoot each online.
Why can't this one single game, not have that option?