Quest for Perfectionism

[jagzzz]

I'm sure George has realized by now that his quest for perfectionism has taken its toll. I was wondering whether it has caused any break downs in terms of employee productivity. Has it affected any of you guys mentally, or perhaps physically? If so, how do you cope? Just curious.

[Evil Angel]

Whenever the idea of chasing perfection has been brought up George has always said it has never been a case of trying to be perfect. It's more like they just made some mistakes and have been trying to finish what they started while also making a game that's as good as can be.

I don't wanna put words in his mouth but he's said similar things in the past.

[Kristian Joensen]

Yes you are absolutely correct, that and a case of WAY to few employees from early on.

All of that was fixed in 2002, they hired alot of people and moved into new and bigger offices. That is when they restarted, to more exact they restarted in early 2002.

By November 2002 their new renderer was finished so the could begin work on content by January 2003.

[Kalki]

Here are some quotes from George:
>>> GetSome said:The only thing I can figure is that this is a case of a desire for too much perfection.


That's not it at all. We certainly have very high standards, but the bottom line is that we had some issues and made some big mistakes and that cost us a few years of wasted development. We started fresh in very late 02 (really early 03) and have been on a pretty good pace since then. We are making progress and driving towards something.

This reallly is a case of just screwing up in a cosmic way early on, then just deciding to try to do it right. 08/09/05 08:13 AM




14/04/05 12:45 PM

>>> jagzzz said: No, doesn't matter who/what they dump the "extra" work on. The point is hiring someone new is going to add to development time. Training the person and getting him/her to work on something that is going to definitely take a lot of time.. i find it funny.


Well for any downtime there is bringing people up to speed, the overall project should go faster with more people working on it. So it's a "one step back, 3 steps forward" kind of thing.

>>> Perfectionism is nice, but there's a fine line between perfectionism, and insanity.


We're not being perfectionits. We're just trying to get done. We will polish until it's right, though.

[Cerberus_e]

I think DNF should try to get a 10 on gamespot http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
gamespot says they give such scores, but never saw such a game (there are, though, according to them)

[SyntaxN]

Cerberus_e said:
I think DNF should try to get a 10 on gamespot http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
gamespot says they give such scores, but never saw such a game (there are, though, according to them)


10 at gamespot? That is possible? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
They should aim for perfection imo, DNF is 3dr´s "return" after so many years, DNF should pwn them all and show who´s the king http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif (I never expected something less, possibly a way to much! I can´t imagine what would happen when DNF is going to be on of those games which "just" get 91% or so http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif)

[g-dog]

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade...but I have such a perfect mental image of the game already (in my mind of course) that it will take a miracle to meet/exceed my expectations. I really, really hope this is that one special release that is both equally visually impressive and fun/exciting to take part of. Just seeing/knowing 3dr has had a part in Prey developement/etc....makes me giddy/excited about how DNF will look and play. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif

[X-Vector]

SyntaxN said:
I can´t imagine what would happen when DNF is going to be on of those games which "just" get 91% or so http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif)



The universe will collapse.

This is the burden that the brave people at 3DR have taken upon themselves (to create a game that gets higher than 91% at Gamespot) and this is in fact the real reason why development of the game has taken so long - they can't afford to get it wrong.

So for all the naysayers out there I say stop your potentially catastrophical lambasting, 3DR are only trying to save the world here!

[SyntaxN]

X-Vector said:

SyntaxN said:
I can´t imagine what would happen when DNF is going to be on of those games which "just" get 91% or so http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif)



The universe will collapse.

This is the burden that the brave people at 3DR have taken upon themselves (to create a game that gets higher than 91% at Gamespot) and this is in fact the real reason why development of the game has taken so long - they can't afford to get it wrong.

So for all the naysayers out there I say stop your potentially catastrophical lambasting, 3DR are only trying to save the world here!


Well, unfortunately I´m not the whole universe, I spoke only for myself http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[X-Vector]

OK, then replace "the universe" and "the world" with "SyntaxN".

[SyntaxN]

X-Vector said:
OK, then replace "the universe" and "the world" with "SyntaxN".


Unfortunately 3dr can´t save me only with DNF, there is more than gaming http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[X-Vector]

And you're supposed to be a DNF cult member?
Methinks you should repent your ways before an excommunication is in order.

[SyntaxN]

X-Vector said:
And you're supposed to be a DNF cult member?
Methinks you should repent your ways before an excommunication is in order.


lol...as you know, DNF is supposed to be a game, and for games DNF is my number 1 atm, that should be enough http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Halford]

There are 4 games that got 10 at gamespot.

http://www.gamespot.com/games.html?type=...date_filter=all (http://www.gamespot.com/games.html?type=top_rated&sort=score&page_type=games&dlx_type=all&date_filter=all)

[Shaam]

Halford said:
There are 4 games that got 10 at gamespot.

http://www.gamespot.com/games.html?type=...date_filter=all (http://www.gamespot.com/games.html?type=top_rated&sort=score&page_type=games&dlx_type=all&date_filter=all)



No PC game has got 10/10. The highest is 9.6. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

[Halford]

Yes, currently there is no PC game which got 9.7 or higher. But next year, DNF will got 10. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Odin]

The fact that DNF has been missing for 8 years or so alone may tack on an extra one-and-a-half point onto the average.

[avatar_58]

Halford said:
Yes, currently there is no PC game which got 9.7 or higher. But next year, DNF will got 10. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Does anyone actually give a rats ass about what ratings these games get? Duke could get a 2.5 for all I care, it won't change my mind about buying it. I'll form my own opinion about my games thanks.

[FireFly]

If Gamespot gives thegame 2.5, it's very unlikely that I'll enjoy it.

[Kristian Joensen]

I will buy this game even if every reviewer in the world gave it 0 AND EVERYONE on this forums aboslutely HATED it.

[SyntaxN]

Kristian Joensen said:
I will buy this game even if every reviewer in the world gave it 0 AND EVERYONE on this forums aboslutely HATED it.


Same here...

[Kalki]

Kristian Joensen said:
I will buy this game even if every reviewer in the world gave it 0 AND EVERYONE on this forums aboslutely HATED it.



Well if I can't do anything else with their gift coupons...

[dark_angel]

I once asked Scott a question at Game Matters about the criteria they are using to create DNF as near perfect as possible but I forgot his exact reply. he mentioned that they are going to innovate in the area they feel important for the FPS genre. Unfortunately, Game Matters doesn't feature a search engine to get his exact response.

[FireFly]

dark_angel said:
he mentioned that they are going to innovate in the area they feel important for the FPS genre.


Wasn't it Charlie who said that, in response to your PM?

[dark_angel]

If I remember well, Scott talked about " appropriate innovations" wich lead to Charlie's statement.

Here is Charlie's Statement:


We are trying to innovate in the areas that we feel are important. We just hope that the players agree. Judging from the reactions to Duke 3D at the time and the few people who have been able to see the game, we're pretty sure we're on the right track.

[Kristian Joensen]

dark_angel said:
I once asked Scott a question at Game Matters about the criteria they are using to create DNF as near perfect as possible but I forgot his exact reply. he mentioned that they are going to innovate in the area they feel important for the FPS genre. Unfortunately, Game Matters doesn't feature a search engine to get his exact response.



Yes I rember seeing you post over at Game Matters and I also distinctly remember you asking that question, but I have been seraching up and down over at Game Matters and I can't seem to find you post.

[FireFly]

Found it.

Scott, what criteria you guys at 3drealms are using to make DNF as near perfect as possible?

Posted by: joseph ghassan | November 3, 2004 01:26 PM

Joseph, our overriding goal is to add a significant building block to the "franchise." This requires making a game that is innovative, fun, and executed to near perfection. We apply this same battle plan to all of the games we're involved with, including Max Payne. Basically, we refuse to release crap.

http://dukenukem.typepad.com/game_matters/2004/11/the_ip_game_par.html

[dark_angel]

^^^
Excellent!

[Kristian Joensen]

Great I was looking for a comment by dark_angel and also decided that it was unlikely to by a comment to that blog entry.

[dark_angel]

I also once stated to Charlie the following:


I really know how hard and time consuming is to make a game that meets our expectations and be innovative in a way or another.




his response:


Our own expectations are bad enough. It's kinda funny but someone will post an idea in the interactivity thread and everyone will make fun of them because it sounds so unreasonable, and we'll look at each other and go "Actually, we could do that if we wanted to".

Our difficulty is saying enough is enough and stomaching saying no to something and saving it for another game.

[Kristian Joensen]

I REALLY like this comment:

"Actually, we could do that if we wanted to", this also means that some of the peole who are able to mod will have quite an amount if ideas to implement. I hope the changes theyhave done to Unrealscript have only made it easier and not harder.

[Sayantan]

Scott said:

Joseph, our overriding goal is to add a significant building block to the "franchise." This requires making a game that is innovative, fun, and executed to near perfection. We apply this same battle plan to all of the games we're involved with, including Max Payne. Basically, we refuse to release crap.[/i]



^^

A cup of coffee please. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[dark_angel]

Kristian Joensen said:
I REALLY like this comment:

"Actually, we could do that if we wanted to", this also means that some of the peole who are able to mod will have quite an amount if ideas to implement. I hope the changes theyhave done to Unrealscript have only made it easier and not harder.



If 3drealms aim for perfection, wich is true, they are capable of doing anything in the game.

This really show how enormous the engine is, giving them the capability to implement their innovative gameplay elements.

[Kristian Joensen]

They already achieved perfection with Duke Nukem 3D in 1996, so long as DNF is as good and as interactive then I am happy and will consider it the best game ever made, simply because Duke Nukem 3D already holds that spot for me.

Anything above and beyond Duke Nukem 3D is for me just an added bonus.

[SyntaxN]

Our own expectations are bad enough. It's kinda funny but someone will post an idea in the interactivity thread and everyone will make fun of them because it sounds so unreasonable, and we'll look at each other and go "Actually, we could do that if we wanted to".

Our difficulty is saying enough is enough and stomaching saying no to something and saving it for another game.


Wow, they must have some very powerfull stuff...we all know that there are pretty mad ideas in the interactivity threads http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I hope they´re still extremely ambitious http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[dark_angel]

Yeah, back in 1996 Duke Nukem 3D was a unique FPS pc title.

Now if we can replace the 199 by 200 and see what title would acheive that again http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[FireFly]

Well in a recent post on the Shack he said:

"You left out the part about picking up a rat and putting it in a microwave, turning it on, watching it spin then explode, or picking up a piece of paper, pressing use and making a paper airplane and throwing it across the room with physics."

http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?id=10981435

[Ivan]

3D Realms can't be aiming for perfection. Getting a game to be perfect is impossible.

[Kristian Joensen]

Last I knew Duke Nukem 3D actually exists. That falsifies your claim.

[SyntaxN]

FireFly said:
Well in a recent post on the Shack he said:

"You left out the part about picking up a rat and putting it in a microwave, turning it on, watching it spin then explode, or picking up a piece of paper, pressing use and making a paper airplane and throwing it across the room with physics."

http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?id=10981435


That would be...uhm insane interactivity http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Someone's getting fired, btw.



http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Kristian Joensen]

"That would be...uhm insane interactivity"

Well isn't that exactly what they have promised us ?

[Ivan]

Kristian Joensen said:
Last I knew Duke Nukem 3D actually exists. That falsifies your claim.



You should be the first person to know that a perfect game doesn't exist.

[Kristian Joensen]

Why do you say that ?

Duke3D was perfect for me. I am expecting DNF to be better than it, heck MUCH better, but not "demanding" it. I am not even demanding it to be just as good.

[SyntaxN]

Kristian Joensen said:
"That would be...uhm insane interactivity"

Well isn't that exactly what they have promised us ?


Yeah... (the example with the rat is going to be in the game imo, George used this one twice)
Let´s hope such things won´t happen only 1 or 2 times in the game, the overall quality should be the same in every level, that´s something many devs can´t provide us http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Ivan]

Kristian Joensen said:
Why do you say that ?

Duke3D was perfect for me. I am expecting DNF to be better than it, heck MUCH better, but not "demanding" it. I am not even demanding it to be just as good.



There's always place for improovement. I am sure there is something in the game that you thought could have been better. Don't reply by saying "no" 'cause I am sure there was.

[Kristian Joensen]

Yep and when mentioning and example of a prop in the game, he mentioned a microwave.

[FireFly]

SyntaxN said:
http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


"Who would I have thought I would by chance run into someone with inside connections at 3D Realms. I was actually really surprised that they would let a lowly tech who set up their upgraded network infrastructure bring a friend to play this game pre-release".

[BioHazard]

I think the problem's up to now have been caused by some incompetent management on 3drealms' part, though I think they are only just beginning to rectify that now.

I don't think there's a quest for perfection, they just want to make a great action game, and that's all I'm expecting.

[Kristian Joensen]

Nope you are wrong their problem was that they had too few people on the team and thefore couldn't get tech finished, that was rectified in 2002.

[BioHazard]

Kristian Joensen said:
Nope you are wrong their problem was that they had too few people on the team and thefore couldn't get tech finished, that was rectified in 2002.



That's a part of the incompetent management. (i.e. not hiring enough people at the right time).

[Kristian Joensen]

I don't thinks so when DNF started development teams where MUCH smaller, sure the team was small when they started but doubt they where much smaller than other teams at the time.

There was no reason BACK then to think that they needed more people on the team, another thing that did wrong which also seemed like a good idea at the time was to license an engine instaed of write one from scratch.

With as high ambitions as 3D Realms have it doesn't really make sense to license an engine, but at that time it DID seem to make sense. I don't think anyone else could have avoided those things back then.

The change to the Unreal Engine also made sense considering how little progress they had made when they made that decision.

Also they genuinely believed that they could keep much of what little content they had made when they switched engines that didn't turn out as expected.

Another thing was that they game suffered from much the same thing as HL2, in that the engine was in constant flux, read this (http://www.gamespot.com/features/6112889/).

[FireFly]

Where does it say that Half-Life 2's engine was in a constant state of flux?

[Kristian Joensen]

I think you are misunderstanding me, I am saying that becuase DNF's engine was in a constant state of flux 3D Realms encoutered some of the same problem that Valve did. I am not saying that Source was in a constant state of flux.

Here is a quote to demonstrate what I am talking about:


By early 2003, the cabals were cranking away on game design, working on countless levels and collaborating with Laidlaw to make sure all the levels would fit into the larger storyline. Still, there were struggles during the early days of production. Namely, the core game technology was unstable and unfinished. Unlike Half-Life's development, in which Valve licensed the fully working Quake engine and built a game on top of it, Half-Life 2's development employed the Valve-created Source engine, which was a constant work in progress. In-game vehicles, for instance, weren't working when the cabals first started the design. That led to much frustration. "We needed levels built for vehicles but we didn't know how the vehicles would work," Newell says. "For instance, we didn't know how high off the ground the buggy could bounce." But since vehicles played a major role in the game, the cabals had to make assumptions about how they'd work."Unfortunately, those assumptions often turned out to be wrong," Newell says.



3DR suffered from similar problem prior to the restart and probably until the tech was locked in by early 2003.


Another similarity is found in this quote:


By mid-2001, Valve had been working on Half-Life 2 for almost two years in complete secrecy. And what did it have to show for all its hard work? Not much. There was a rough script, a bunch of concept art, and tons of experimentation being performed with the technology. Now it was time for the team to try to blend all that technology together--the characters, the physics, and the new Source engine.



This sound almost EXACTLY like DNF, perhaps even worse. George said that some levels have remained from the 2001 version but they where only "early shells" any way. This quote makes it sound like Valve hadn't got ANY levels AT ALL by mid 2001.

There was ofcourse also the scrapped demo reel from 2002. Btw, there is also a similarity to the development of Half-Life:

"In a way, the failed proof-of-concept reel mirrored another failure in Valve's past. In the fall of 1997, Newell played through an early version of Half-Life, only to realize that the game wasn't any fun to play. So Valve scrapped the game and almost completely redesigned it in 12 months"

That last part also supports my point that game development was MUCH different when development started on DNF.

[Zaarin]

FireFly said:
Well in a recent post on the Shack he said:

"You left out the part about picking up a rat and putting it in a microwave, turning it on, watching it spin then explode, or picking up a piece of paper, pressing use and making a paper airplane and throwing it across the room with physics."





Hmm...both are relatively easy to make happen in game these days. I would gladly see these thing in DNF. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

George, confirmation requested. Do tell us, please?

[hell-angel]

Most game developers (and I assume 3DR as well) strife for perfectionism in their games, no one will every achieve it but I think that 3DR will come very close is terms of gameplay. Just as long as they keep their target audience the same during development. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Cerberus_e]

I hope there are lot of scripted sequences so the environments seems alive. (like in HL2: you were battling the striders but at the same time lots of scripted sequences showed rebels fighting in the distance etc, or also firing a rocket at the strider, and in call of duty there are constantly scripted sequences everywhere to make it seem you're in a battle)

I want that too for city levels.
yes, Duke is the one saving the world, but that doesn't mean he's the only one fighting, the others are trying http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I don't like the feeling of fighting aliens alone in a huge city like vegas.
I want scripted sequenced god damn it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif, they make levels perfect for me (think of stalingrad for call of duty, you don't fight a single guy there, but the level was perfect http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

judging from George making the "scripted sequences" thread, I guess that feature will be in, of having the feeling you're not alone fighting http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

it depends on the setting though.
in quake, it fits that you are alone. in the mines levels of DNF, it fits as well.
but not in las vegas http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SyntaxN]

I wouldn´t worry about that...but I would worry about overused scripting sequences, HL2 did a good job because big events don´t happened every 10 seconds http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[hell-angel]

As long as Duke is in the lead, I don't mind. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Cerberus_e]

hell-angel said:
As long as Duke is in the lead, I don't mind. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



but fighting alone in vegas would be the most unimmersive ting ever http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SyntaxN]

Cerberus_e said:

hell-angel said:
As long as Duke is in the lead, I don't mind. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



but fighting alone in vegas would be the most unimmersive ting ever http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


There have to be some characters, at least for saying: "Hey pal, what are you going to do? Safe the world all by yourself?" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

[hell-angel]

Cerberus_e said:

hell-angel said:
As long as Duke is in the lead, I don't mind. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



but fighting alone in vegas would be the most unimmersive ting ever http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



True, that is why I agree with you on this one. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


SyntaxN said:

There have to be some characters, at least for saying: "Hey pal, what are you going to do? Safe the world all by yourself?" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif



That's a must. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[roryok]

I've been thinking about the hype/perfectionism thing for a while now.

On one hand, I think the game could actually live up to (most) of the hype, and be worth the wait. HL2 pretty much lived up to the hype. So it is possible.

On the other hand, duke has more hype. It'll never live up to everyone's expectations, since everyone is expecting something different, and unfortunately the world is full of people who live to give out about everything.

In my case, I'm looking forward to it because at this stage, as long as its duke, on Ue2.5, even if it sucks, there will be thousands of mappers and modders out there ready to jump all over it and produce more content.

That said, I think it'll rock. Too many games these days are rushed (Boiling Point is a great example - its just a f**king beta in a box) and any company thats committed to spending more than a decade developing a single title, and starting over several times, gets my vote.

How often you think EA delays a game to make it as good as it can be?