Please Open Source RotT

[Guest]

Hi there!

I am a long-time RotT player, along with a group of friends, we play COMM-BAT RotT games almost every day. We even bought five official copies of RotT (something quite unusual here in Brazil - BTW, we are 5 people).

But it seems that RotT is destined to fade away, and such would be a most grievous indeed. Since we are all computer programmers , we would ask that you free the RotT source code, in the same way that id has done for Wolf3D and Doom, so that we could make sure that RotT does not die.

Thanks
Rodrigo

[Joe Siegler]

There's no way we could do that even if we wanted to do it. We lost the ROTT source code a couple of years ago.

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Joe Siegler
3D Realms Entertainment
http://www.3drealms.com
http://3drealms.3dportal.com/ubb/faq.html (For info on using this UBB)

[Guest]

ROTT is based off of the Wolf 3D source code. So, while it's not the actual source code, it's almost it. http://3drealms.3dportal.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

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www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2407/ (http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2407/)
Dopefish!

[Joe Siegler]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>ROTT is based off of the Wolf 3D source code. So, while it's not the actual source code, it's almost it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's like comparing a tugboat to the Titanic. While ROTT started life with the Wolfenstein source code, there's virtually none of it left in the final revision.

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Joe Siegler
3D Realms Entertainment
http://www.3drealms.com
http://3drealms.3dportal.com/ubb/faq.html (For info on using this UBB)

[X-human]

ROTT sourcecode lost? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh the humanity!!!!!! If you guys loss the Duke Nukem and Shadow Warrior source codes, I'll drive down to Texas and make you eat game CDs and disk till you all choke. And don't you guys at id Software and ION Storm think they are safe. I'll make you eat the CDs and disk after I rip them out from the 3D Realms crew. No one from the Apogee crews can escape my wrath......... hey, maybe we can get the Commander Keen code for id Software, that would RULE!!!!!

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The One and Only -=[X-human]=-
http://www.gibbed.com/gznews/

"There was a prince and a princess living happily in a kingdom. But there was a jealous devil from the dark world, named 'X'. 'X' turned the prince and princess into two stone paddles." Story Text, Bad Omen

[Guest]

Keen source, that would be cool, anyway though, here's an idea for keeping source code: Buy a CDRW (That's Compact Disk Read/Write), label it 'Source', create directories for each game, and have the source code for it in there to store, and when a new breakthrough in the source comes, add that to it (in subdirectories for each version), example:
D: [SOURCE]
\ROTT
\1.1
\1.2
\1.3
\DN3D
\1.0
\1.1
\1.3D
etc. this way all the source code would be backed up on a CD, I don't know how big the source code get's for the games, so you may or may not need more of them, but how could you lose source code? anything big that I program I keep a copy of it somewhere just in case I want to use it again. Suggest that to management (or whoever is in charge), and that way years after the game is released you can go back to the archives and let all the curious programmers play around with it.

Also, I bet id lost the Keen source, too. I wonder if they'll ever release the Quake source...

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[Co11]

No offense.. but I don't think 3drealms thought it was a big loss when ROTT went down the drain..

mmmm.. ROTT

Although, a new ROTT level would be sweeet.. multiplayer ROTT mods, I can see CS for ROTT...

[Superczar]

Actually if I recall they found the ROTT source code...

[Crosma]

Superczar's right, since Joe's fairly old post the source has been found.

[Joe Siegler]

Yeah, this is a way old thread. We've since gotten a hold of the ROTT source code again.

[Guest]

That's really not up to Joe. If it were, we'd have the ROTT source code in no time, but it's really up to George Broussard - and I can tell you that he is as stubborn and unmoving as they come (which is a good thing images/icons/smile.gif )

Honestly, in fifteen years, when 3DRealms disbands or gets absorbed by Microsoft, we'll probably see the ROTT source.

[Co11]

really?
well, I do post on a 9600 baud modem, so it was new when I posted that.. it takes a few months or so to get some posts out.

[PigeonRat]

I would like some ROTT source too - I have the Wolf and Quake source, and ROTT would make a nice addition.

Also was BUILD also based on the ROTT engine? They seem similar.

[revenant100]

The ROTT engine is an advanced version of the Wolf 3d engine. 3DR has already said they won't release the source.

[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by Lukeyboy:
I would like some ROTT source too - I have the Wolf and Quake source, and ROTT would make a nice addition.

Also was BUILD also based on the ROTT engine? They seem similar.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

You would "like" them? What do you want to do with 'em? Collect 'em like trading cards? What's the point in that?

Build and ROTT's tech have nothing to do with each other, except they used similar sound code.

[PigeonRat]

Joe: no, not really. I just like looking at source code for programs as it really helps me knowledge in various programming languages.

There is just something ROTT and Duke have in common (with the speakers off). Oh, thats right, they are both made by the same company images/icons/grin.gif . images/icons/wink.gif

[Draco]

Originally posted by Joe3DR:
You would "like" them? What do you want to do with 'em? Collect 'em like trading cards? What's the point in that?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Well, duh, certain cards can only be played if you Tap certain source codes. Maybe he just has a card that requires ROTT mana to play images/icons/smile.gif

[Guest]

There was a comment above saying something like 'what are you going to do with the source'. I have been an active member of the Doom, Heretic, Hexen source code improvements that have been going on. The work has made HUGE improvements over the original codebases. But here are a FEW things that have happended:

* Internet play via TCP/IP
* 3d card support
* Many bug fixes
* New gameplay features
* useful consoles

etc.

By the way my own OpenSource ROTT engine (based on the Wolf/Doom code) is progressing slowly but surely. An early version is already available for download. I got a bit diverted though recently as John Carmack just release the Quake 2 source code as a xmas present to the community images/icons/smile.gif Cheers and Happy New Year to all,

Tony

[Crosma]

Originally posted by Draco:
[QB]Well, duh, certain cards can only be played if you Tap certain source codes. Maybe he just has a card that requires ROTT mana to play images/icons/smile.gif QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hehe.

As I've said before, releasing the source code for old games serves no purpose. No-one's going to bother improving it (especially when it takes ages to work out what the hell is going on as it invariably does when looking at someone elses code). With ROTT, few people will play an improved version anyway.

Look at Quake and Wolf3D, not a smiggion of anything has happened (with the exception of the buggy mess that is WolfGL).

[Admiral_Bob]

Originally posted by Crosma:
Hehe.

As I've said before, releasing the source code for old games serves no purpose. No-one's going to bother improving it (especially when it takes ages to work out what the hell is going on as it invariably does when looking at someone elses code). With ROTT, few people will play an improved version anyway.

Look at Quake and Wolf3D, not a smiggion of anything has happened (with the exception of the buggy mess that is WolfGL).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Not necessarily. Doom's still going quite well, have a look at http://www.doomworld.com - there's still several projects going on there.

It usually depends on how portable the original source is (Wolf3D with it's 16-bit real mode assembler creates a considerable hurdle) and how well documented it is, as well as how much room the game has for improvement (id already added OpenGL and better multiplayer support to Quake 1 with QuakeWorld, so that lessened the incentives somewhat).

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: Admiral_Bob ]

[bonch]

Originally posted by Crosma:

As I've said before, releasing the source code for old games serves no purpose. No-one's going to bother improving it (especially when it takes ages to work out what the hell is going on as it invariably does when looking at someone elses code). With ROTT, few people will play an improved version anyway.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

That's just not true. The source port community for Doom is huge. The possibilities of improving the replay value of ROTT are immense, and there are plenty of programmers wishing to tackle it simply out of love for the game. Not to mention that it costs 3D Realms nothing except the cost of cleaning up the code for release. After that, it's all up to us.

[Crosma]

Originally posted by bonch:
That's just not true. The source port community for Doom is huge.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was huge, now it's died down. Regardless, that's one very successful game that already had a large community, any other game and the same thing wouldn't've happened.

The possibilities of improving the replay value of ROTT are immense, and there are plenty of programmers wishing to tackle it simply out of love for the game. Not to mention that it costs 3D Realms nothing except the cost of cleaning up the code for release. After that, it's all up to us.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It would be good if ROTT did become a popular piece of source for porting, but it wouldn't, it's not popular enough. Wolf3D and Quake have had no good code ports, and people have had plenty of time to do it.

[bonch]

Originally posted by Crosma:
Was huge, now it's died down.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

As a part of the Doom community, I can say that's not true. Besides, what does that have to do with ROTT? My point was that there was plenty of interest in the Doom source release and there would be plenty of interest in ROTT source. Now I get to play Doom in true 3D OpenGL under Windows (as well as Heretic, Hexen, Doom II, etc.). In the Doom Legacy forums, someone has taken the original Doom textures into 3D Studio Max and created hi-res, hi-color, prerendered versions which look amazing. There is now talk of adding such texture support to the next beta of Doom Legacy. Interest in improving the game is still there.

Regardless, that's one very successful game that already had a large community, any other game and the same thing wouldn't've happened.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

ROTT has a large enough community, and interest would increase because of a source release (thereby increasing the community anyway). Sheesh, the game invented rocket jumping. If anything, it could be a release for historical or academic purposes. I don't understand why you're opposed to this.

It would be good if ROTT did become a popular piece of source for porting, but it wouldn't, it's not popular enough. Wolf3D and Quake have had no good code ports, and people have had plenty of time to do it.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

As has already been pointed out above, Wolf3D uses 16-bit real-mode assembly which prevents easy porting. Quake has already had such things as OpenGL and enhanced multiplayer capabilities added to it by QuakeWorld. Having said that, there are several Quake source projects. Off the top of my head, here's a page for you to look at: http://www.quakesrc.org/?Page=links There are even more projects listed on that page than at Doomworld's!

If anything, it would be nice to have a Linux port. I realize 3D Realms isn't obligated to give anything out; I'm just arguing why it would be nice. I don't care how popular ROTT is compared to Doom or Quake. Interest for ROTT is there (same with Duke3D).

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: bonch ]

[Crosma]

ROTT has a large enough community, and interest would increase because of a source release (thereby increasing the community anyway). Sheesh, the game invented rocket jumping. If anything, it could be a release for historical or academic purposes. I don't understand why you're opposed to this.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not opposed to it at all, I just think people are expecting too much to happen because of a source code release.

I'm a programmer myself, and I can truthfully say that I see very few problems with the Wolf3D code. Assembler is only used for graphics/sound/controls code, which for a Win32 OpenGL port (for example) will all be canned. Sound can be ignored until everything else is up, and the controls could use the Windows API (or whatever). Doing this is only really few days work once you understand the code (understanding the code fully'll take a while). One person's done this, WolfGL is the product. WolfGL however, is really buggy and the aiming doesn't work. No-one else's touched the Wolf3D code significantly. WolfGL's source is available (with all the DOS 16-bit stuff replaced), someone could pick that up and finish it, there's not really that much left to do. Guess what? No-one has!

Wolf3D is/was way more popular/well known than ROTT, and it's had one unfinished port and that's it. ROTT would most likely not get that.

Unless you intend to do something with it yourself there's not much point in arguing for it to be released, because it's doubtful anyone else'll touch it.

The Doom community increased tenfold when the source was released, now it's smaller than it's ever been. The number of ports in development is fairly low now too, but that's mainly because there's not much left to improve.

If anything, it would be nice to have a Linux port. I realize 3D Realms isn't obligated to give anything out; I'm just arguing why it would be nice. I don't care how popular ROTT is compared to Doom or Quake. Interest for ROTT is there (same with Duke3D).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nice, but pointless. That's my argument. As Joe said it seems like people ask for source just so they can collect it, and not actually improve it.

[bonch]

Originally posted by Crosma:
I'm not opposed to it at all, I just think people are expecting too much to happen because of a source code release.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

What's wrong with wanting, say, a Linux port? Or a simple hi-res mode? At least people could try and potentially reinvigorate the game. Since it has built-in CTF, teamplay, and other features already, if TCP/IP play was added, it would be worth it if only for that.

I'm a programmer myself, and I can truthfully say that I see very few problems with the Wolf3D code. Assembler is only used for graphics/sound/controls code, which for a Win32 OpenGL port (for example) will all be canned. Sound can be ignored until everything else is up, and the controls could use the Windows API (or whatever). Doing this is only really few days work once you understand the code (understanding the code fully'll take a while). One person's done this, WolfGL is the product. WolfGL however, is really buggy and the aiming doesn't work.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

As described by the author himself, WolfGL is a hack. The code is complicated.

No-one else's touched the Wolf3D code significantly. WolfGL's source is available (with all the DOS 16-bit stuff replaced), someone could pick that up and finish it, there's not really that much left to do. Guess what? No-one has!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Maybe because it's buggy, as you described? Also, Wolf3D is really too simplistic to warrant significant port changes. Luckily, ROTT isn't.

You also neglect the TCs people have made utilizing the source, such as a pseudo-Spear of Destiny sequel called Spear Ressurection. Check out these screenshots from the site:
http://www.areyep.com/Tortureroom.gif
http://www.areyep.com/Scrn4a.gif
http://www.areyep.com/Scrn5a.gif
http://www.areyep.com/Scrn16a.gif

Wolf3D is/was way more popular/well known than ROTT, and it's had one unfinished port and that's it. ROTT would most likely not get that.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Ok, how can you possibly know if we don't find out? And how can it hurt to try? ROTT and Wolf3D are different games. You underestimate the following ROTT has. Perhaps the reason Wolf3D isn't touched is because the game is so simplistic in the first place. What would be the point of adding, say, mouselook, polygonal walls, or colored lighting? The levels and game data aren't modern enough for it and so would never take advantage of it (i.e., why would I look up and down in a flat hallway anyway?).

Luckily, Doom was modern enough in its design. ROTT is too, despite the 90-degree walls. ROTT still has great gameplay--especially for multiplayer.

You keep referring to the popularity of the game, which truly means nothing. There are people who are fans of not-as-popular-as-Doom games like, say, System Shock, who are going so far as to compile a new executable compatible with the game's original data, despite no source code. People want these old games running again.

I would LOVE to be able to play the original System Shock again, but, unfortunately, the game will not run on my WinXP machine. There is a demand for these source releases, not only to improve the game to modern standards, but also to keep them from becoming obsolete beyond playability, since DOS is dead.

Unless you intend to do something with it yourself there's not much point in arguing for it to be released, because it's doubtful anyone else'll touch it.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I'd love to work with it myself, though I'm sure there are others who will at least attempt a Linux port. Someone did it with Wolf3D.

I'm not necessarily arguing for it to be released--Joe has made it clear 3DR currently has no interest--but I'm giving reasons why it would be great if it was.

The Doom community increased tenfold when the source was released, now it's smaller than it's ever been. The number of ports in development is fairly low now too, but that's mainly because there's not much left to improve.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

And so ROTT shouldn't be improved because work will slow down as it gets better? I don't see the harm in that.

The Doom community is still going strong. I also showed you what was being done with Quake source.

Nice, but pointless. That's my argument.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Games in general are pointless. C'mon, it's all in good fun.

As Joe said it seems like people ask for source just so they can collect it, and not actually improve it. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Well, if you're accusing me of that, you're wrong. I'm a programmer, too, but just because a non-programmer requests a source release doesn't mean they "collect source code" (which there's nothing wrong with anyway!). Maybe they just want an improved version of a game they like to play!

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this source code thing. images/icons/smile.gif

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: bonch ]

[relnev]

Originally posted by Crosma:
Nice, but pointless. That's my argument. As Joe said it seems like people ask for source just so they can collect it, and not actually improve it.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

"Pointless"? I'd like to know of a non-pointless usage.

There are a lot of projects involving the Wolf3D source code. People have been using it to make their own mods, and there are the ports, of which WolfGL is one. You neglect to mention any of the the other people who have worked with the source code (editorial disclosure: I maintain a Linux port of Wolf3D that was started Jan. _1999_).

Besides, the WolfGL shooting problem is easily solved by a small patch. It seems some code was inadvertently(?) commented out.

[theoddone33]

Originally posted by Crosma:
One person's done this, WolfGL is the product. WolfGL however, is really buggy and the aiming doesn't work. No-one else's touched the Wolf3D code significantly. WolfGL's source is available (with all the DOS 16-bit stuff replaced), someone could pick that up and finish it, there's not really that much left to do. Guess what? No-one has!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I suspect the reason you haven't found any other Wolf3D projects is because you haven't looked.


Wolf3D is/was way more popular/well known than ROTT, and it's had one unfinished port and that's it. ROTT would most likely not get that.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Most source releases result in a completed Linux port, this is fact.

Unless you intend to do something with it yourself there's not much point in arguing for it to be released, because it's doubtful anyone else'll touch it.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

No matter how much you say it is pointless to release source code, people will still want to play RoTT on XP, Linux, and even DreamCast. People who want to play games on their favorite platform want source releases, whether they intend to do the work themselves or not.


The Doom community increased tenfold when the source was released, now it's smaller than it's ever been. The number of ports in development is fairly low now too, but that's mainly because there's not much left to improve.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

If there's not much left to improve, then I guess the Doom source release did its job. There aren't many games, especially DOS games, that you can point to today and say "There's not much left to improve with that game."


As Joe said it seems like people ask for source just so they can collect it, and not actually improve it.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I find that comment rather amusing, since the only reason 3D Realms is keeping the source is to collect it, not to improve it.

[bonch]

Just to show what is being done with these source releases, another Wolf3D port is NewWolf (http://wolfgl.narod.ru/). Some shots to show what he's doing to improve the game are here (http://wolfgl.narod.ru/shots.htm), which show such things as an automap, light diminishing, a console, and 3D acceleration. The latest version is 0.51b--the next version will include DLL virtual machines to seperate the game and the engine, ala Quake 2 and Quake 3!

Just using these as examples to point out what people do with these source releases to extend the longevity of the games and to keep them running under today's operating systems.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: bonch ]

[PigeonRat]

Originally posted by Crosma:
Nice, but pointless. That's my argument. As Joe said it seems like people ask for source just so they can collect it, and not actually improve it. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I would definatly participate in some MODding of the ROTT engine, if it sounds like I collect them like "trading cards" (in Joe's words). I know many, many useful MODs would be done to the engine, new episodes released, etc.

[Crosma]

Bah, ok I'll shut up now. Last time I looked (only a few months ago) I was buggered if I could find anything of interrest. All the mods I could find were so far from incomplete after so long it'd looked like they weren't ever going to be completed. For a long time WolfGL was the only Wolf3D OpenGL port.

Ok, it looks like more interresting stuff is happening then it appeared.

I'd just like to add that if ROTT's released I'll probably OpenGL it myself (if I can find the time).

[Guest]

Hey Crosma, I could have sworn you were playing 'devil's advocate' there images/icons/wink.gif There has been TONS of stuff with Wolf, Doom, Quake source and several other games too. John Carmack (shortly after releasing the Quake 2 code) has suggested another source code release will be made - there is speculation that it could be the source to Commander Keen images/icons/smile.gif (I have my doubts though on that one).

By the way my port of the Wolf code from 16-bit to 32-bit was NOT easy (as you seem to suggest). It probably took around five full days to do but was quite tricky.

Cheers,
Tony

[Crosma]

Originally posted by bedford:
Hey Crosma, I could have sworn you were playing 'devil's advocate' there images/icons/wink.gif There has been TONS of stuff with Wolf, Doom, Quake source and several other games too. John Carmack (shortly after releasing the Quake 2 code) has suggested another source code release will be made - there is speculation that it could be the source to Commander Keen images/icons/smile.gif (I have my doubts though on that one).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Commander Keen is really all they have available to release, they're pretty much out of games to release the sources of. I imagine they'll release the Keen 4 source,

By the way my port of the Wolf code from 16-bit to 32-bit was NOT easy (as you seem to suggest). It probably took around five full days to do but was quite tricky.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It depends what you've done. A fairly strict 16-bit to 32-bit port, one that's exactly the same (just 32-bit), would be very hard. However, a port to OpenGL would allow you to replace large chunks of the code (with much simpler OpenGL code), making it fairly easy to do.

[PigeonRat]

Originally posted by bedford:
There has been TONS of stuff with Wolf, Doom, Quake source and several other games too. John Carmack (shortly after releasing the Quake 2 code) has suggested another source code release will be made - there is speculation that it could be the source to Commander Keen images/icons/smile.gif (I have my doubts though on that one).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Ermmm... how about Quake 3: Arena? images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif funny I know, but we can AT LEAST dream about it...

[Guest]

I don't think opensourcing ROTT would harm its fanbase in any way, but I think losing it to memory would. Please open source this most nifty game.
The Doom source ports brought back the fun of Doom to me. Doom Legacy was so exciting to me, because of all the skins/mods/weapons/etc we could add to it with it chewing up my P200MMX or my brother's lame onboard video card. I set up a home network specifically for my brother and me to play Doom Legacy, and we even had a bunch of neighborhood kids come by and play round robin with us. They said it was just as fun as GoldenEye or Duke Nukem 64. I feel like opensourcing ROTT could do the same, but maybe I'm just a hopeless dreamer. I had to say it anyhow.
peace, love, and revolutionary marxism,
Gestalt.

[De Zeurkous]

We hava the WOLF3D source, right? Why not create ROTT ourselves from WOLF3D? That would be alot more fun to do! And of course, its Very Much REWARDING! :p (and i could learn alot from it, personally :)

De Zeurkous
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Friggin' Machines!

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: De Zeurkous ]

[De Zeurkous]

Originally posted by Joe3DR:


You would "like" them? What do you want to do with 'em? Collect 'em like trading cards? What's the point in that?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Its always fun to collect things. You brought me to the idea to collect (free/non-free) Games and Add-Ons!

Thats fun, right?

De Zeurkous
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Friggin' Machines!

[Guest]

I meant without earlier but you still get the idea.
G.

[Guest]

De Zeurkous said:
We hava the WOLF3D source, right? Why not create ROTT ourselves from WOLF3D? That would be alot more fun to do! And of course, its Very Much REWARDING! images/icons/tongue.gif (and i could learn alot from it, personally images/icons/smile.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Basically this is what the OpenROTT project is about. I have ported Wolf3D to 32-bit and added various bits of Doom code.

Cheers,
Tony

[De Zeurkous]

Bedford, does it have a site? If so, where is it?

De Zeurkous
-----------

Friggin' Machines!

[ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: De Zeurkous ]