Light/Dark

[Kalki]

It seems technology sets the tone of this game. While the Quake 2 based DNF was often light but still gritty imo, the UT stuff was definitely dark and atmospheric which I think was due to a limitation of the Unreal engine not being able to do really bright scenes at the time. Me, I kind of liked both approaches and the variation they stood for. Now we've got Doom 3 like per-pixel lighting on one hand and Lost Coast like HDR on the other...

[trackit]

i dont like when games are too dark... It makes my eyes hurt when i have to figure out whats going on in that pitch black... and it is really annoying. Some scenes can be in dark but they should be minority imo

[JackpotDen]

I prefer Dark for vegas, light for desert, but dark as in "its a dark room with ****loads of neon lights and stuff so I can see clearly.

[Duoae]

I want real-time HDR lighting using ray-tracing technology. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But if they can't manage this i'll be happy with static lightmaps or ray-tracing. TBH, i'm just interested in what system they might decide on considering they've developed portal visualisations in the past. I'm assuming they still own and have that code. I want to see what can be done to the unreal engine!

[Kristian Joensen]

The engine already supports HDR and per-pixel lighting as well as stencil shadows.

[SyntaxN]

Duoae said:
I want real-time HDR lighting using ray-tracing technology. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Well...anything else http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
But I seriously hope they can achieve UE3 niveau graphics...possibly the textures aren´t as highres but uber great artstyle can produce the same *wow* effect http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
For the topic, just give me the 2001 style...or something better, the rest is up to 3dr http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mr.Sociopath]

Screenshots to what the poll talks about would be better..
I chose mainly stuff that says" I don,t care" cause I don't remember seeing what you talk about..
Only thing I chose was day/night cycle because it's more fun http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Imfamous]

How about it looks like this for Vegas...

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1172/1123253864.jpg

This for the desert...

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1172/1123866378.jpg

And this for space levels http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1172/1123253863.jpg

[Tim. Just Tim.]

I have nothing against the idea of dark areas in games. In fact, I will be very surprised if DNF doesnt have at least a few of them.

The problem with dark areas are that they are UNFAIR, in both single player and multiplayer.

Singleplayer:
If a bad guy is in a dark spot, you either cant see him, or cant see him easily meaning you have reduced accuracy and reaction time and motion planning. This is fine, this is what the darkness should do. The problem is that if you and the bad guy switch places, he has no problems whatsoever seeing you. No games that I know of are fair this way. If im in a dark spot then the bad guy should have just as hard a time seeing me as when hes in the bad spot and I cant see him. There are a few games out there that claim to do this, but they still dont feel right/fair to me.

Multiplayer:
As soon as you have dark spots in multiplayer levels it creates unfairness because there is always going to be people who crank their brighness up to get the advantage of not having dark areas. So when playing online, your either forced to make the graphics look shitty by making them all overbright, or you get your ass kicked by a player who is basically cheating.

[Kalki]

Here are a few pictures of Ghosttown and Gus, for reference:

Unreal-

http://www.planetduke.com/images/image.asp?/duke4/images/screenshots/pcgamer1999/06.jpg

http://www.planetduke.com/images/image.asp?/duke4/images/screenshots/pcgamer1999/09.jpg

Quake 2- (To get a better idea of this, watch the E3'98 video)

[hell-angel]

I want gus to look old and tough. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Micki!]

hell-angel said:
I want gus to look old and rough. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif



Fixed that..! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

[hell-angel]

Micki! said:

hell-angel said:
I want gus to look old and rough. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif



Fixed that..! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif



http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif that to of course. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif

[Duoae]

Kristian Joensen said:
The engine already supports HDR and per-pixel lighting as well as stencil shadows.



Which engine? The DNF renderer? Unreal or Doom 3?

Because i haven't seen any real-time HDR in a game yet... not even in a demo reel. (and i don't count bloom...)

[Kristian Joensen]

The DNF renderer and what are you on about, UE3 supports HDR, so does Farcry and Source atleast with the release of Lost Coast.

[Joe Siegler]

hell-angel said:
I want gus to look old and tough. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Gus IS Duke - that's what happens when the game has been in development so long. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[dark_angel]

I hope Gus is still capable of saving the world! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Highlag]

Duoae:

HDR can be seen as mentioned in Lost coast demo from HL2

I must say it rocks!

[FireFly]

And it's in Splinter Cell, and even Age of Empires 3, I recall

[Shaam]

Kalki said:
Mainly Lost Coast HDR bloom effects please




No Bloom effects. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mryuck.gif I hate bloom. Also Orlando Bloom. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Imfamous]

Knewace said:

Kalki said:
Mainly Lost Coast HDR bloom effects please




No Bloom effects. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mryuck.gif I hate bloom.



I agree. They used to be a treat, but are not completely overdone.

[Zaarin]

Joe3DR said:
Gus IS Duke - that's what happens when the game has been in development so long. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Good to see that you haven't lost your sence for irony. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Duoae]

Kristian Joensen said:
The DNF renderer and what are you on about, UE3 supports HDR, so does Farcry and Source atleast with the release of Lost Coast.



Last time i checked Half Life 2 was precompiled lightmaps..... not real-time HDR. Same with Farcry? I thought that it only had dynamic lighting inside?

I thought Doom 3 used ray-tracing? UE3 is the only one i know of that might, but I haven't seen any HDR in those demos, only bloom.

Read my posts please. :/

[hell-angel]

Joe3DR said:

hell-angel said:
I want gus to look old and tough. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Gus IS Duke - that's what happens when the game has been in development so long. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif




hehe, lol. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I already though he looked familiar. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Cerberus_e]

FireFly said:
And it's in Splinter Cell, and even Age of Empires 3, I recall



and far cry

[FireFly]

Duoae said:
Last time i checked Half Life 2 was precompiled lightmaps..... not real-time HDR. Same with Farcry? I thought that it only had dynamic lighting inside?


HDR is merely a method of storing light information with an increased range of brightness values. It doesn't matter what you then use those brightness values for - you're still doing HDR.

Typically this brightness information is used in games to increase the contrast levels possible in a scene. For example, suppose you have a rock with a reflectivity rating of 20%. If the light source shining on that rock is rated at the maximum brightness level the monitor can display (1.0) then because the rock is only able to reflect 20%, the overall brightness level of that rock will be limited to 0.20.

However with HDR you can have a light source far brighter than this maximum, which means that the same rock can now have a brightness of up to 1.0.

The process where the 'overbright' level is converted to a level the monitor can display is called tonemapping. This is a fully dynamic process. Bloom comes in here, as well. Overbright lights are typically bloomed, with the amount of bloom depending on how (over)bright they are. This is all done in real time. So it's not true to say the HDR process isn't dynamic because the tonemapper will be dynamically assessing the contributions of all the lightsources in the scene and applying bloom where necessary. In this case I think it matters little whether the light sources are static or dynamic. The process is unchanged.

So, in Half-Life 2 dynamic light sources also work with the HDR system, as you can see if you flick on your flashlight (or watch somebody else do the same). I think there are overbright dynamic lights in Far Cry as well.


I thought Doom 3 used ray-tracing? UE3 is the only one i know of that might, but I haven't seen any HDR in those demos, only bloom.

Read my posts please. :/


Ray tracing is far, far too expensive to use on current hardware. If you use it you'll be running at 1 or 2 FPS. Doom 3 uses stencil shadows for the shadowing, and a dynamic per-pixel lighting system for the lighting.

BTW all current games use dynamic lighting, because dynamic lighting just refers to the lighting of a scene, and not the shadowing.

Oh, and UE3 does in fact support HDR.

[Micki!]

Joe3DR said:

hell-angel said:
I want gus to look old and tough. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Gus IS Duke - that's what happens when the game has been in development so long. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif ...

Just; http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif ...

[Duoae]

Thanks for clarifying.

[ecco]

Oh God.

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~miknis23/OldDuke.GIF

[Cerberus_e]

that rolechair could use a mounted jetpack at least

[Echo Black]

"Rolechair"? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ZuljinRaynor]

I voted for Doom 3 Flashlight fest. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dopefish.gif

[hell-angel]

Echo Black said:
"Rolechair"? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif



He meant wheelchair. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

And he was right. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Cerberus_e]

damn foreigners, I once read "rolechair" and then I thought the correct word was "rolechair", all the fault of those foreigners http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif

[Micki!]

Cerberus_e said:
that rolechair could use a mounted jetpack at least



"Rolechair" + "Jetpack" = "Rollchoppar"... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Funny drawing btw... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif i'm making two exclusive Duke fanarts for Duke4.net... The first one is already done... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[hell-angel]

Cerberus_e said:
damn foreigners, I once read "rolechair" and then I thought the correct word was "rolechair", all the fault of those foreigners http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif



hmm, well, so technically that was you own fault then. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

[Cerberus_e]

hell-angel said:

Cerberus_e said:
damn foreigners, I once read "rolechair" and then I thought the correct word was "rolechair", all the fault of those foreigners http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif



hmm, well, so technically that was you own fault then. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif



no, a foreigner is someone from another country... and I'm in my own country so ... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif

[Seraph]

I can't tell who is from where since the languages are so diverse. I'll see English one second, and German the next! Afterword, the German poster will use immaculate English. I don't keep track anymore. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[hell-angel]

I am dutch if you want to know. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Cerberus_e said:

hell-angel said:

Cerberus_e said:
damn foreigners, I once read "rolechair" and then I thought the correct word was "rolechair", all the fault of those foreigners http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif



hmm, well, so technically that was you own fault then. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif



no, a foreigner is someone from another country... and I'm in my own country so ... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif



Not on these boards you are not. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif And for me you are also an foreigner. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

And we are getting of topic to the boot. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[colmtourque]

trackit said:
i dont like when games are too dark... It makes my eyes hurt when i have to figure out whats going on in that pitch black... and it is really annoying. Some scenes can be in dark but they should be minority imo


nuff said

[Sang]

My humble graphics card doesn't support HDR... So I went for Vegas at Night, Desert (or whatever) during the day.. As for the rest: Let 3DR decide, Let's see a new Gus!

[roryok]

Imfamous said:
How about it looks like this for Vegas...

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1172/1123253864.jpg

This for the desert...

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1172/1123866378.jpg

And this for space levels http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1172/1123253863.jpg



I'm really looking forward to prey, but I have to say, the outdoor gfx (at least in that shot) don't look too impressive. Light seems wrong. Much rather something that looks like HL2 or Far Cry

[hell-angel]

Sang said:
My humble graphics card doesn't support HDR... So I went for Vegas at Night, Desert (or whatever) during the day.. As for the rest: Let 3DR decide, Let's see a new Gus!



Mine supports it, but I doubt it can run everything at 1280x1024 then. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
As for the rest, I agree. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif