Hanging with the evolving FPS genre. [Archive]

Falciform

11-10-2005, 01:41 PM

Do you all think 3DR learned from id's mistake with Doom3? I'm talking about relying on the Doom name and not improving gameplay all that much. Now, don't get me wrong, I've always been a fan of Doom and really enjoyed Doom3, but I've got to admit that most critics were right in that it's gameplay wasn't up to par with current FPS evolution. The gameplay was, for the most part, the same as it was in the shareware version of Doom. What do you all think DNF will have to do to keep the same Duke feel, but also successfully compete with newer titles? I'll list a few I can think of.

Interactivity set DN3D apart from everyone else and I think it still can, while keeping the Duke feel. The more it's incorporated into gameplay rather than a sideshow, the better. My hopes are up for the physics engine.

Gameplay. While I enjoy blowing stuff up, I do want to feel like I have a reason for blowing stuff up, other than beating the level.

Graphics. Duh.

Weaponry. I think Duke has this covered.

Junius

11-10-2005, 01:50 PM

I think pretty much the entire gaming community has already transitioned from the Doom-era gamplay. Id made a strategic mistake by believing that fragging was the ultimate and sometimes only point to a WASD/mouse game and it shows in the disappointment of even their biggest fans (including myself.) I have faith that if DNF is released, it will have a great deal of post-HL gameplay to it.

zilppuri

11-10-2005, 02:05 PM

How do you justify them making "strategic"(?) mistake? Didn't ANYBODY buy their game? And you are one of their biggest fans? I'm guessing their biggest fans would understand what they were aiming for with Doom3 and how they infact archieved it all. It's not their fault if you went to store and bought bananas thinking they are oranges.

Also I think the FPS "evolution" is very weak at best. When people talk about gameplay, they talk about blowing more and different stuff up. When they talk about interaction,they talk about buying soda cans and one-key-conversations.

It's point-and-click in the end. You strafe-shoot your way through, and sometimes hide in the shadows and behind boxes.

I'm quite sure that DNF will deliver as great FPS game, but I'm not too naive to think it will be revolution in game world. They will say "It's good, but it's still another FPS game".

Kristian Joensen

11-10-2005, 02:36 PM

Not to worry 3DR hasn't made that "mistake" in the first place so there no reason to "learn" anything from Doom 3. Everyother word out of Scott's mind is "story" or "Character" that is when he isn't using some marketing term.

Cerberus_e

11-10-2005, 03:27 PM

and yet another thread about a new member hoping DNF will be true to Dn3d unlike doom 3 was to doom http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
so what if doom 3 doesn't have adanced gameplay, ecause there is nothing wrong with old school gameplay.
they certainly didn't make a mistake by releasing doom 3... it's my favourite 2004 game.
honestly, I think it's funny how every month a new member joins that makes his first thread about how DNF follows DN3D, then proceeds to talk about the doom-doom3 relationship http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Roger

11-10-2005, 05:35 PM

Falciform said:
Do you all think 3DR learned from id's mistake with Doom3?

What mistake?

Falciform

11-10-2005, 06:02 PM

Cerberus_e said:
and yet another thread about a new member hoping DNF will be true to Dn3d unlike doom 3 was to doom http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
so what if doom 3 doesn't have adanced gameplay, ecause there is nothing wrong with old school gameplay.
they certainly didn't make a mistake by releasing doom 3... it's my favourite 2004 game.
honestly, I think it's funny how every month a new member joins that makes his first thread about how DNF follows DN3D, then proceeds to talk about the doom-doom3 relationship http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Maybe your veteran status gives you the right to jump to conclusions without taking a moment to understand what I wrote. I won't hold it against you, but instead explain myself further. Doom3 was true to Doom in almost every respect. There was very little gameplay change at all. After eleven years there was no change other than graphics. I said I enjoyed the game and I didn't lie. The "mistake" I referred to was the fact that id felt the formula that worked eleven years ago was going to work again and have the same impact. It didn't. It only worked with self-proclaimed "veterans" such as yourself. I enjoyed it for what it was, but I still understood what all the "newbies" were bitching about. Doom3 doesn't hold a candle to a game like Half Life when you consider the game as a whole for a new market.

Honestly, I think it's funny how every new forum I go to has some self-important jackass who thinks it's cool to let the new guy know his choice of a thread was overused and pointless. Just to let you know, I did a quick search and couldn't find any threads with the same idea before posting. Feel free to prove me wrong, Learnèd One.

Cerberus_e

11-10-2005, 06:06 PM

I never claimed I'm veteran, neither did I claim to look down on you.
but it's still funny how every month a new member makes a thread about "DN3D => DNF" vs "doom => doom 3". I don't see what's insulting about that
I also didn't claim you didn't like doom 3. I saw you like it. I just said I don't see anything wrong with old-school gameplay.
you're WAY overreacting. (eg: self-important http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif). your offensive language wasn't needed.

EDIT:
http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=933268&page=2&vc=1
http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=963805&page=0&vc=1

that doesn't mean your thread is pointless and shouldn't be made, just read these 2 posts to understand what i find so funny. those are all the first post of a new thread.

Hudson

11-10-2005, 06:29 PM

Roger said:

Falciform said:
Do you all think 3DR learned from id's mistake with Doom3?

What mistake?

Well, that it was boring, monotonous and sucked for one thing http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Roger

11-10-2005, 06:33 PM

Hudson said:

Roger said:

Falciform said:
Do you all think 3DR learned from id's mistake with Doom3?

What mistake?

Well, that it was boring, monotonous and sucked for one thing http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hey, didn't you go into the game thinking that anyway, then end up replaying it later with an open mind and decided it didn't suck, or have you regressed. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

Cerberus_e

11-10-2005, 06:37 PM

well, self-important jackass will now answer your question, it was just a matter of time before I found the quote:

Charlie Wiederhold (lead developer or how it's called):

We are trying to innovate in the areas that we feel are important. We just hope that the players agree. Judging from the reactions to Duke 3D at the time and the for people who have been able to see the game, we're pretty sure we're on the right track.

and Scott Miller (big boss of apogee/3dr, later George became co-owner as well):

Joseph, our overriding goal is to add a significant building block to the "franchise." This requires making a game that is innovative, fun, and executed to near perfection. We apply this same battle plan to all of the games we're involved with, including Max Payne. Basically, we refuse to release crap.

both of these quotes prove DNF will be innovative, so it's not like your complaint with doom 3 (not that I think doom 3 doesn't have anything new over doom, because I think the story is a lot more fleshed out and there are puzzles, unlike in doom, etc...)
but you think that, so I provide you these quotes

X-Vector

11-10-2005, 07:42 PM

Cerberus_e said:
both of these quotes prove DNF will be innovative

Statements of intention do not equal proof.

To find the proof, you first have to wait until the pudding is ready and then eat it.

Kristian Joensen

11-10-2005, 07:44 PM

X-Vector we already KNOW that you assume it will suck.

Simon Charles

11-10-2005, 07:54 PM

Falciform said:
Do you all think 3DR learned from id's mistake with Doom3? I'm talking about relying on the Doom name and not improving gameplay all that much.

Although I've given up on Duke long ago, I still believe 3DR as competent game developers. So yes, I think a new Duke game would deliver on gameplay and not just rely on its name.

Imfamous

11-10-2005, 08:31 PM

Simon Charles said:

Falciform said:
Do you all think 3DR learned from id's mistake with Doom3? I'm talking about relying on the Doom name and not improving gameplay all that much.

Although I've given up on Duke long ago, I still believe 3DR as competent game developers. So yes, I think a new Duke game would deliver on gameplay and not just rely on its name.

lol at Hudson. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

And yeah, I agree with Simon. I hope and bet DNF's gameplay is a mix between what we saw in the Prey trailer and the Killzone 2 trailer.

hell-angel

11-11-2005, 01:29 AM

Kalki

11-11-2005, 01:56 AM

Doom 3 was a nice game. It got boring though and the plot was essentially a backstory revealed. Also it didn't have neither the frantic run and gun of the earlier dooms nor did it do anything radically different gameplay-wise to set it apart for some people.

Innovation in FPSs are currently done in two categories besides tech:

1) Story: The same reason you watch a movie. If the concept/narrative doesn't appeal to you, why bother with the aim'n'shoot?

2) Gameplay: It is not important that the gameplay be revolutionary. It should be unique to the game and that's what matters. This signature gameplay would consolidate the game's identity for the future.

DNF could either build on what Duke3D did or do something unique that sets it apart from everything else. Probably a little of both.

hell-angel

11-11-2005, 04:20 AM

I disagree with you about doom not having a different gameplay. It is different to other game because it takes a step back to the core of what is fun. It didn't use all the bells and whistles because the original didn't have them.

Sure, it was a bit slower paced then the previous (and other) titles but when the action started it still was pretty fast enough not to get an frag fest and challenging enough to be entertaining.

Doom 3 was different because it was not trying to innovate the gameplay. And god damn it, I loved the game for that. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif

Cerberus_e

11-11-2005, 05:05 AM

hell-angel said:
Now, stop whining and welcome to the club of DNF lovers http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

he still has to give his impressions on my 2 quotes, maybe he doesn't like it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif it could be too good or so http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

FireFly

11-11-2005, 06:17 AM

Kristian Joensen said:
X-Vector we already KNOW that you assume it will suck.

Do we? I was under the impression that he's keeping an open mind.

Kristian Joensen

11-11-2005, 06:37 AM

It doesn't seem to be open toward the possibility that Cerberus_e was correct.

trackit

11-11-2005, 06:38 AM

I agree that Doom 3 was somehow disappointment to many (me inluded) Doom 3 didnt have almost any way to interact with surrounding world, and im not talking about insane level on interactivity here... just the basics. it gave me the feeling/impression that i was in some kind of world covered with plastic shield that nothing can brake through. and its not "plastic" that bothers me but the "shield".
(F.E.A.R is much better in that department for example...)

Its surprising that after 10 years DN3D is still most interactive FPS that i have seen. Im sure DNF will raise the bar once again for next 10 years. I just wached again 2001 trailer and i must say that i want to play that "5 years old game" more than any currently released title...

FireFly

11-11-2005, 06:42 AM

Kristian Joensen said:
It doesn't seem to be open toward the possibility that Cerberus_e was correct.

Not at all. He's saying we can only judge whether Cerberus_e is correct when we play the game - that will be the proof.

hell-angel

11-11-2005, 06:50 AM

Cerberus_e said:

hell-angel said:
Now, stop whining and welcome to the club of DNF lovers http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

he still has to give his impressions on my 2 quotes, maybe he doesn't like it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif it could be too good or so http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The quote is not to good. But the meaning of the quotes is great. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif

Imfamous

11-11-2005, 10:03 AM

Doom 3 was a downright dissapointment. Prey looks excellent though. So does Killzone 2. I picture DNF's gameplay being a mix, which would kick all kinds of ass.

http://moses.gametrailers.com/streambuilder.php?type=wmv&streamtext=m:t_killzone2_kk::m:black

http://moses.gametrailers.com/streambuilder.php?type=wmv&streamtext=m:t_prey_e35::m:black

Cerberus_e

11-11-2005, 10:16 AM

Imfamous said:
Doom 3 was a downright dissapointment.

what did you expect from doom 3 that it didn't accomplish.
don't say something generic like "a good game". be specific.

Imfamous said:
http://moses.gametrailers.com/streambuilder.php?type=wmv&streamtext=m:t_killzone2_kk::m:black

the trailer looks so fake (I had never watched it up until now).
it would be such a huge coincidence to stand just next to that marine that gives you another gun.
I'm sure that part of the game won't be even half as fun as that video indicates.

Imfamous

11-11-2005, 10:23 AM

Hudson's post on Doom 3 about sums it up.

As for the KZ2 trailer, of course it's fake. Just look at the way the person "playing" moves the gun/camera. My point is though, that there should be some intense, multi-person firefights with Duke, some EDF soldiers, octabrains, enforcers, etc.

Twin

11-11-2005, 12:02 PM

i think all this thread is about is how we don't want duke nukem forever to rely on the game being called duke nukem to sell it as ID did we doom...

in a way id were right with what they produced with doom 3 but it just didn't have anything on top of the doom experience...i think that's what most people were looking fr...doom with extra new tech stuff that we've seen recently in first person shooters...

i'm hoping that with duke nukm forever we still hve the duke 3d feel to it but more...i want more interactivity...more guns, more explosions, more babes, more one-liners and more character development than the half-life series....

to put it in short, i want everything good about every first person shooter X's 10 http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cerberus_e

11-11-2005, 12:13 PM

Imfamous said:
Hudson's post on Doom 3 about sums it up.

I asked to be specific http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Twin said:
doom 3 but it just didn't have anything on top of the doom experience...

it did: story, puzzles, more varied level design with pipes to crawl between, vents, ...

Little Conqueror

11-11-2005, 12:23 PM

This is a thread about DNF and how it'll have to contend with an evolving FPS genre, not whether Doom 3 is part of that evolution or not, but I guess the whole topic's been lost.

ZuljinRaynor

11-11-2005, 12:31 PM

The Count

11-11-2005, 12:41 PM

I never quite understood why expectations on DNF are mostly compared to Doom3. Aren´t there any other modern FPS ? HL2 ? Far Cry ? Anyone ?
Besides, AFAIK id never claimed to revolutionize gameplay with D3.
It actually could have been better / more immersive in some parts (e.g. teamplay with marines-bots or outdoor-levels on earth like in Doom2).
But playing Doom3 in a darkened room at night with headphones on still gave me enough chills for my money http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cerberus_e

11-11-2005, 12:57 PM

Little Conqueror said:
This is a thread about DNF and how it'll have to contend with an evolving FPS genre, not whether Doom 3 is part of that evolution or not, but I guess the whole topic's been lost.

that's not true, he thread starter brought doom 3-doom comparision in the mix, so the topic is about that too.

The Count said:
Besides, AFAIK id never claimed to revolutionize gameplay with D3.

on the contrary, they said themselves you wouldn't get serious sam gameplay, but they'd throw one or two enemies at you at the same time.
when I played doom 3, it was 100% how I expected to be.
those who say "doom 3 is a disappointment" obviously haven't followed the development enough (and I even did only partially follow development). of course you can't blame them for not follow doom 3's development, but that doesn't give them the right to say the game is a disappointment because it looked much better.

Cerberus_e

11-11-2005, 12:59 PM

The Count said:
I never quite understood why expectations on DNF are mostly compared to Doom3. Aren´t there any other modern FPS ? HL2 ? Far Cry ? Anyone ?

because doom 3 has an original (doom) just like DNF has an original (duke3D).
there is about the same amount of time between both games of both series.

mysteryperfecta

11-11-2005, 01:05 PM

I think DNF will give us new things, while remaining "old school" in many respects. 3dr is led by old-school gamers, who've developed old-school games to this point, and have expressed a fondness for old-school FPS conventions.

Doom 3's gameplay design can arguably be called a "mistake", but more accurately, it was simply a "decision". Doom 3 got many good reviews, and there are still plenty of gamers who still enjoy simple run-and-gun (or creep-and-gun). So I don't know whether there is any urgency to abandon the old school. The old and the new can co-exist, at this point.

However, today's new school will be tomorrow's old school. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of today's gamers have never played Doom (or Duke3d). They may be considered slight (and even boring) for many. Personally, I prefer the sophistication of many of today's FPSs, so you won't see me resist the evolution.

Falciform

11-11-2005, 01:11 PM

For me the bottom line is Doom3, for what it was supposed to be, was great. But when compared to other games such as Half Life 2, it lacked things that other developers had grasped. All I'm saying is that I hope DNF doesn't just make a leap forward from DN3D, but a leap forward from all the other games and their innovations as well.

stockboy

11-11-2005, 01:15 PM

mysteryperfecta said:
Doom 3's gameplay design can arguably be called a "mistake", but more accurately, it was simply a "decision".

Completely agree. Felt more like a tech demo in the end for me personally.

SyntaxN

11-11-2005, 01:16 PM

Imfamous said:
Doom 3 was a downright dissapointment. Prey looks excellent though. So does Killzone 2. I picture DNF's gameplay being a mix, which would kick all kinds of ass.

http://moses.gametrailers.com/streambuilder.php?type=wmv&streamtext=m:t_killzone2_kk::m:black

http://moses.gametrailers.com/streambuilder.php?type=wmv&streamtext=m:t_prey_e35::m:black

Killzone 2? The graphics are going to pwn, but I doubt that much more will happen http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
And for DOOM³, in the beginning I was disappointed, but some months later I played through it and realized how damn great this game is!

Cerberus_e

11-11-2005, 01:34 PM

stockboy said:

mysteryperfecta said:
Doom 3's gameplay design can arguably be called a "mistake", but more accurately, it was simply a "decision".

Completely agree. Felt more like a tech demo in the end for me personally.

then you disagree.
and what's with all those people calling games like doom 3, HL2, ... tech demos? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif

Falciform said:
All I'm saying is that I hope DNF doesn't just make a leap forward from DN3D, but a leap forward from all the other games and their innovations as well.

then my quotes don't suffice http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Falciform

11-11-2005, 01:44 PM

Cerberus_e said:then my quotes don't suffice http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

No, the quotes bring a little comfort, but I won't be satisfied until I see the end product. And I'm in no great hurry for it to come out, either, since I don't have a computer capable of running it as it should be anyway. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cerberus_e

11-11-2005, 01:53 PM

me neither, but I don't have a problem running it on lower quality.
as long as it's not 640*480 without AA http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The Count

11-11-2005, 02:02 PM

Cerberus_e said:

The Count said:
I never quite understood why expectations on DNF are mostly compared to Doom3. Aren´t there any other modern FPS ? HL2 ? Far Cry ? Anyone ?

because doom 3 has an original (doom) just like DNF has an original (duke3D).
there is about the same amount of time between both games of both series.

Sorry, but the comparison lacks an important fact:
Doom3 was officially announced from the start as a remake of Doom1 while DNF never was supposed to be a remake of DN3D and surely won`t be...

Falciform

11-11-2005, 02:06 PM

I imagine in a year or so I'll dump 2k-2.5k on a good platform that will be upgradeable for a while after. I'm toying with the idea of possibly getting a 40"-50" widescreen DLP (or whatever tech looks most promising at the time) and hooking it up. Imagine 50 inches of Duke glory. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cerberus_e

11-11-2005, 03:44 PM

The Count said:

Cerberus_e said:

The Count said:
I never quite understood why expectations on DNF are mostly compared to Doom3. Aren´t there any other modern FPS ? HL2 ? Far Cry ? Anyone ?

because doom 3 has an original (doom) just like DNF has an original (duke3D).
there is about the same amount of time between both games of both series.

Sorry, but the comparison lacks an important fact:
Doom3 was officially announced from the start as a remake of Doom1 while DNF never was supposed to be a remake of DN3D and surely won`t be...

true

FireFly

11-11-2005, 03:47 PM

I'm hoping DNF will be a modern game and not a remake of Duke 3D.

ZuljinRaynor

11-11-2005, 03:49 PM

FireFly said:
I'm hoping DNF will be a modern game and not a remake of Duke 3D.

It can't be a remake if it's a sequel to DN3D.

SyntaxN

11-11-2005, 03:50 PM

FireFly said:
I'm hoping DNF will be a modern game and not a remake of Duke 3D.

Yep....

Kristian Joensen

11-11-2005, 04:05 PM

FireFly said:
I'm hoping DNF will be a modern game and not a remake of Duke 3D.

But you still want it to be similar to Duke3D in a number of key areas, right ?

If that is the case then we agree.

FireFly

11-11-2005, 04:14 PM

Of course. I'm not saying remove the shrinker or the pipebombs or anything.

Micki!

11-11-2005, 04:18 PM

FireFly said:
Of course. I'm not saying remove the shrinker or the pipebombs or anything.

I wouldn't want that to happen... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Kristian Joensen

11-11-2005, 04:20 PM

I wasn't necessarily talking about that, I am talking about things like Duke's attitude, onelines, personality and the action in general as well the the interactivity and awesome level design. I want new and old school elements side by side, I don't want story instead of action I want story AND action.

Like many people have pointed out Duke is about kicking ass I want that to remain. However that is in no way incompatable with having a fleshed out story.

FireFly

11-11-2005, 05:01 PM

Oh but that is exactly what I want. For me what's important is that the action is 'meaningful', that it has not just a context in terms of the plot, but an emotional context - you're not just kicking ass, you're saving the world.

That's what games lack, a feeling that your involvement has a greater meaning. You don't even need to get philosophical about it, just think about your favourite moments in action movies - were they memorable just because of the action itself, or because of what was behind the action?

What I'm expecting from DNF are action sequences fit to be in a blockbuster movie, with the emotional involvement of said movie. So when the shit hits the fan, the player should be under no illusions that he's the last line of defence - 'humanities last hope'. And playing Duke should be all about fulfilling that roll, becoming an unstoppable killing machine, tested to the limit as the heroes journey requires, and coming through.

I think it's all summed up by that great line in the E3 trailer

"Hey pal, what are you going to do, save the world all by yourself?"

Kalki

11-12-2005, 12:49 AM

hell-angel said:
Sure, it was a bit slower paced then the previous (and other) titles but when the action started it still was pretty fast enough not to get an frag fest and challenging enough to be entertaining.

Doom 3 was different because it was not trying to innovate the gameplay. And god damn it, I loved the game for that. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif

I actually enjoyed the non-action intro. And by different I didn't mean innovation but was referring to the creation of signature elements to it's gameplay. Because it was somewhere between the flashlight switching and the health-sucking superweapon that the game got a little boring.

Cerberus_e

11-12-2005, 03:55 AM

FireFly said:
That's what games lack, a feeling that your involvement has a greater meaning. You don't even need to get philosophical about it, just think about your favourite moments in action movies - were they memorable just because of the action itself, or because of what was behind the action?

you're right http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
I didn't even realize that myself.

Like I told Kristian Joensen: what I also don't like is boring plots like you'd see in an american action movie (we're not thinking about Schwarzenegger AT ALL http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif).
there aren't much games with a good story I've played.
the max payne games yes.... but I can't immediately think of a first person shooter with a good story that is emotion packed. A story that touches you emotionally (not necesserily crying) can make a dull story in itself a very good story.
I think Doom 3 is the best then (I honestly don't see how anyone can complain that one has a generic and boring story... well except for the speculative storyline fans http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif). And Return to Castle Wolfenstein... and Outlaws! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Micki!

11-12-2005, 04:32 AM

FireFly said:
Oh but that is exactly what I want. For me what's important is that the action is 'meaningful', that it has not just a context in terms of the plot, but an emotional context - you're not just kicking ass, you're saving the world.

That's what games lack, a feeling that your involvement has a greater meaning. You don't even need to get philosophical about it, just think about your favourite moments in action movies - were they memorable just because of the action itself, or because of what was behind the action?

What I'm expecting from DNF are action sequences fit to be in a blockbuster movie, with the emotional involvement of said movie. So when the shit hits the fan, the player should be under no illusions that he's the last line of defence - 'humanities last hope'. And playing Duke should be all about fulfilling that roll, becoming an unstoppable killing machine, tested to the limit as the heroes journey requires, and coming through.

I think it's all summed up by that great line in the E3 trailer

"Hey pal, what are you going to do, save the world all by yourself?"

I have made a Fanart drawing of Duke, which (kinda) fits PERFECTLY to that describtion... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Unfortunately, it's an exclusive art for Duke4.net http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif... You'll have to wait for the launch http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wid.gif

FireFly

11-12-2005, 06:03 AM

I think the Halo 2 in-engine trailer is good example of what I'm talking about. Shame they ruined the scene for the final game.

http://www2.mythica.org/halo/hbo/halo2_announce_qt6_large.mov

SyntaxN

11-12-2005, 06:10 AM

FireFly said:
I think the Halo 2 in-engine trailer is good example of what I'm talking about. Shame they ruined the scene for the final game.

http://www2.mythica.org/halo/hbo/halo2_announce_qt6_large.mov

ahhh please don´t remind me on this one....the good old Halo 2 graphics engine looked so damn amazing http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

trackit

11-12-2005, 07:59 AM

FireFly said:
I think the Halo 2 in-engine trailer is good example of what I'm talking about. Shame they ruined the scene for the final game.

http://www2.mythica.org/halo/hbo/halo2_announce_qt6_large.mov

what makes you think this trailer has something to do with actual game? the character movement etc was far too smooth to be true imo.

(i havent played Halo 2 and dont know much about it and that trailer though...)

FireFly

11-12-2005, 08:17 AM

What you see there is done in-engine, in real time. It was the first Halo 2 footage released and functioned as a teaser and engine demo, but the cutscene made it into the final game in modified form.

Beelze

11-12-2005, 08:18 AM

Cerberus_e said:
I think Doom 3 is the best then (I honestly don't see how anyone can complain that one has a generic and boring story...

This reminds me of how much I like the http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif icon.

Cerberus_e

11-12-2005, 08:23 AM

see, I don't understand you

FireFly

11-12-2005, 08:26 AM

I liked that quote more before my name was edited out.

dark_angel

11-12-2005, 09:05 AM

Due to the fact that 3drealms are capable of incorporating any type of gameplay/ideas shown in the interactivity thread or even their own ideas indicate that they have built a state of the art engine.

They wasted like 4 years to find an appropriate engine to suit their gameplay desires and thank God that the C++ " Daikatana" guy and the other programmers were capable of creating a monstrous engine.

Can't way to see the game in action!

Kristian Joensen

11-12-2005, 09:24 AM

What Daikatan guy ?

Since when are they able to implement everything in the interactivity threads ?

The quote you gave us from Charlie didn't say that.

dark_angel

11-12-2005, 09:39 AM

They have hired a C++ programmer who worked on Daikatana but left the project one year before its completion. ( There is a thread somewhere about it, Maybe FireFly can find it).

about Charlie's quote.

It's kinda funny but someone will post an idea in the interactivity thread and everyone will make fun of them because it sounds so unreasonable, and we'll look at each other and go "Actually, we could do that if we wanted to"

Now how you interpret " so unreasonable "?

Hard to implement?

beyond the limit?

Kristian Joensen

11-12-2005, 09:45 AM

" It's kinda funny but someone will post an idea in the interactivity thread"

He is talking about that idea, I mean he isn't saying that they can implement everything in those two threads just that some of the things we don't think would be possible ARE possible.

SyntaxN

11-12-2005, 09:52 AM

I think it´s hard to "evolve" the FPS genre in big steps anymore, that would have been possible in 2001 or so, but HL2 did one of the biggest steps Duke should have done (imo), creating a truly believable and realistic world! (mainly through making physics a part of the gameplay)
Yeah interactivity might be a way to evolve it, but it won´t be a really new step simply because games like Duke3d did that...

dark_angel

11-12-2005, 10:01 AM

Well if they can implement everything, will you be sad?

anyway, if someone is capable of implementing even the " so unreasonable " idea, is it hard for him to implement the less unreasonable ones?

Kristian Joensen

11-12-2005, 10:03 AM

No I wouldn't be sad, ofcource not !!!

"anyway, if someone is capable of implementing even the " so unreasonable " idea, is it hard for him to implement the less unreasonable ones?"

Ofcourse not but there might even more unreasonable ones.

Cerberus_e

11-12-2005, 10:06 AM

believeable world had been done before, physics as part of gameplay had also been done before http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

dark_angel

11-12-2005, 10:09 AM

Let's just not delve into these type of discussions that are based on assumptions and a single statement analyses.

Let's just say that 3DREALMS thanks to their engine are capable of implementing gameplay types never seen in a game before.

As you know an engine dictates what type of gameplay that could be implemented in a game.

FireFly

11-12-2005, 10:22 AM

They can't implement everything in that thread. Some of the ideas were so ridiculous they were obviously jokes.

Anyway I believe you're talking about Jonathan Wright, the lead programmer for Daikatana who worked on the A.I before leaving to join Third Law Interactive. 3DR picked him up in fall 2002, when much of the engine work was already underway.

SyntaxN

11-12-2005, 10:28 AM

Cerberus_e said:
believeable world had been done before, physics as part of gameplay had also been done before http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don´t know which game(s) you´re talking about, HL2 did by far the biggest step in this category imo... (what don´t means it´s the best game of all time, no way http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)
I don´t want to indicate that DNF is going to suck or something but I think the time where it might have been a revolution is over.
The thing which is left for 3dr is making everything *much* better http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

dark_angel

11-12-2005, 10:28 AM

Of course everything after filtering the ideas http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yeah, Jonathan Wright!

Kristian Joensen

11-12-2005, 10:31 AM

He is at Id now.

dark_angel

11-12-2005, 10:36 AM

When did he move to Id ?

Kristian Joensen

11-12-2005, 10:40 AM

I don't know. But he is listed here (http://www.idsoftware.com/business/team/).

Cerberus_e

11-12-2005, 10:43 AM

SyntaxN said:

Cerberus_e said:
believeable world had been done before, physics as part of gameplay had also been done before http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don´t know which game(s) you´re talking about, HL2 did by far the biggest step in this category imo...

call of duty made a believable word by having lots of scripted sequences to make it seem the world is alive. just like HL2 did.
trespasser and painkiller were before HL2 for physics part of gameplay http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

trackit

11-12-2005, 10:45 AM

Kristian Joensen said:
I don't know. But he is listed here (http://www.idsoftware.com/business/team/).

ID and 3DR is quite near to eachother as i remember... maybe he is working i both offices http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

trackit

11-12-2005, 10:53 AM

Cerberus_e said:
call of duty made a believable word by having lots of scripted sequences to make it seem the world is alive. just like HL2 did.
trespasser and painkiller were before HL2 for physics part of gameplay http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

i love painkiller.... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif no storyline but good gameplay. coolest weapons, those flying gibs etc, awsome. And it even ran good on my old machine (celeron 2Ghz, geforce fx5200)

EDIT: in the matter of fact i think im gonna install it again on my new machine right now, because of your post... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

Kristian Joensen

11-12-2005, 10:56 AM

Firefly, your PM inbox is full.

FireFly

11-12-2005, 11:17 AM

I wish sent PMs wouldn't count to the limit.

Anyway, he appeared on the id site between June 30th 2004 and July 16th 2004. The last known update was between December 2003 and February 2004, so he couldn't have joined before that.

Cerberus_e

11-12-2005, 06:03 PM

Kristian Joensen said:
Firefly, your PM inbox is full.

you shouldn't talk, yours is full too http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I wanted to reply to your question if I had your second PM... well, I only have one PM of you I didn't reply to... so I don't think I received the PM.

Kristian Joensen

11-12-2005, 06:05 PM

It isn't full anymore, it was full of PM from you.

Micki!

11-13-2005, 04:16 AM

Kristian Joensen said:
It isn't full anymore, it was full of PM from you.

Cerb got pwned i guess... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Cerberus_e

11-13-2005, 04:24 AM

how did I get "pwned"?
Kristian sends me lots of PMs, and I reply to them.
so it's not my fault he has lots of PMs from me http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Micki!

11-13-2005, 04:27 AM

Cerberus_e said:
how did I get "pwned"?
Kristian sends me lots of PMs, and I reply to them.
so it's not my fault he has lots of PMs from me http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hmm... You've got a point there...
So you both pwned each other..?! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

Bud Bundy

11-13-2005, 10:22 AM

Micki! said:
Hmm... You've got a point there...
So you both pwned each other..?! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

no you pwned yourself http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

pwned! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Micki!

11-13-2005, 01:02 PM

Bud Bundy said:

Micki! said:
Hmm... You've got a point there...
So you both pwned each other..?! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

no you pwned yourself http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

pwned! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

NOOO!!!
I got pwned by two pwned guys because they pwned each other..!
What is that called anyways..? Mass pwning..?! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dopefish.gif