Prey & Linearity

[Cerberus_e]

what do you think?
portals can make that there are complicated mazes (non-linear) http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

personally, I don't want it to be too non-linear because I always get frustrated if I can't explore a certain area.
what would be even more unfortunate is that you could skip parts of a level by going into the portal of a spawning enemy.
what do you think will be there?
it would especially be sad if you can use that trick to skip a cool puzzle http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I've said that before: I don't want to challenge myself in games, I want games to challenge me.
therefore I don't like it if the game allows you to skip a puzzle by for example entering a spawning enemy portal, or using other means.

I hope it gets confirmed somehow if that will be impossible http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ZuljinRaynor]

Use proper sentence structure. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif

Too linear = (most of the time) bland
Too non-linear = (most of the time) lost
Prey WILL be in the middle... like Duke Nukem 3D. Atleast, I hope.

[Mr.Sociopath]

I personnaly hope it won't be too linear because of portals..
my point is.. they know they have to make things more clear for the player so he doesn't get lost because of the portals.. so what i fear is that the portals are placed at some very too convenient places.. like at the dead-end of corridors.. in the final room of the corridors.. and finally they would all teleport you at the begining of corridors, or in the first room of the corridors..
i'd like to search my way a bit.. when going in new places like malls or big buildings, I'm usually a bit lost at first.. I don't see why I wouldn't need to search for direction and such in a extra-terrestrial vessel unless it's made so dumb that a monkey could play the game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Cerberus_e]

getting lost is no problem for me, I just don't want the ability to skip cool places in the game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif like a puzzle http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SyntaxN]

I don´t want it to be non-linear, and I´m pretty sure it won´t be simply because that could be very complex with all those portals when they do more than just some dead end corridors with extra health!

[Imfamous]

Judging by the video, I think Prey will be the perfect combination of freedom and linearity. Can't wait.

[Michelangelo]

I think I've had enough of the doom 3 engine http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Cerberus_e]

how is that relevant to the discussion?
I also don't understand how you can get enough of the engine... does it have a bug that prevents you from playing it on your PC which meets recommended system requirements? if not, then you have no reason to say that.
especially not in this thread http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Micki!]

Cerberus_e said:
how is that relevant to the discussion?
I also don't understand how you can get enough of the engine... does it have a bug that prevents you from playing it on your PC which meets recommended system requirements? if not, then you have no reason to say that.
especially not in this thread http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif



I think he was refering to Doom 3's linearity, and since Prey is using the same engine it could happen to be the same (although, that's pretty unlikely, since the leveldesigners and programmers etc are controlling that)

Unless they WANT it to be linear... Don't forget that it has been confirmed that DNF will be a linear game too..!
And F.E.A.R. is also linear, only the AI is making the difference as much as i know...

Some pretty good examples there... Fear uses AI to variate the gameplay, and DNF uses interactivety i guess... So Prey will most likely find a way to make the possible linearity feel les linear with something...

[Cerberus_e]

Micki! said:

Cerberus_e said:
how is that relevant to the discussion?
I also don't understand how you can get enough of the engine... does it have a bug that prevents you from playing it on your PC which meets recommended system requirements? if not, then you have no reason to say that.
especially not in this thread http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif



I think he was refering to Doom 3's linearity, and since Prey is using the same engine it could happen to be the same (although, that's pretty unlikely, since the leveldesigners and programmers etc are controlling that)



yes, what does linearity have to do with the engine?

[FireFly]

Ask Drazula.

[Kalki]

Right now I'd prefer all my shooters provide exploration but be linear in the overall level layout. With Prey, portals can complicate but nevertheless add to the exploration.

With portals we can reach otherwise inaccessible areas in the same level or transport to locked parallel areas that spawn the enemies that created the portals and contain goodies like ammo and weapons (more than that dropped by the enemies themselves).

But I don't want portals to be an excuse for enemies spawning behind me in an area I've already explored unless I failed to clear out a parralel area or the mission itself calls to maintain a spawning enemy count to make things hectic.

I still want to be able to explore an entire level before moving on.

[Cerberus_e]

yeah, I hope those spawning enemies won't frustrate me as much as in Doom 3 http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[trackit]

Most games are "linear" fo a reason. If player gets lost and dont know what to do, where he is supposed to go next, he gets bored, frustrated and propably quits the game. Making game non-linear and making sure player dont get confused or frustrated is extremly difficult. BTW the STALKER (planned as very non-linear game) dev team admitted that they are having difficulties with the same thing and now they are thinking how to make sure that player gets entertained and not just pointlessly running around wondering what is he supposed to do.

And another thing like someone said earlier is that player usually wants to get sure he didnt miss some coolness before he progresses. And with nonlinear game its really confusing how to make sure of that

EDIT: it depends of course on the game type too... for example if a raceing game is non linear with many crossing streets and places then its OK and cool, because the whole point ist just racing a car. And it doesnt matter where you turn/drive

[Cerberus_e]

the solution is having no cool scripted parts, like far cry does.
in far cry it doesn't frustrate me that I miss one way, because the other way is basically the same as in the rest of the game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

but in prey I wouldn't want the ability to skip for example the cubus puzzle from the E3 video! that would basically be BS and would suck a lot.

[Kalki]

Cerberus_e said:
the solution is having no cool scripted parts, like far cry does.
in far cry it doesn't frustrate me that I miss one way, because the other way is basically the same as in the rest of the game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

The solution is to have adaptive or alternate sequences depending on your position/approach. There also need to be scripts with variable outcomes depending on physics/AI, etc. that you can influence/interrupt to go with the open-endedness.

[Cerberus_e]

serious now, the solution is to have 2 the same looking ways, and they come together at a cool puzzle http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif then it splits up again http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Imfamous]

How about just doing it like Duke 3D? where you are forced to see everything worth seeing.

[Cerberus_e]

that's what I want.
but those portals make me concerned, especially those of spawning enemies http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ZuljinRaynor]

Cerberus_e said:
that's what I want.
but those portals make me concerned, especially those of spawning enemies http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


ala System Shock 2?

[Cerberus_e]

in system shock they keep respawning instead of just spawning, which is even more frustrating http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ZuljinRaynor]

Cerberus_e said:
in system shock they keep respawning instead of just spawning, which is even more frustrating http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Will there be spiders too in Prey ala System Shock 2. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Michelangelo]

Sorry I brought it up

but you have to admit after a while doom3 is very BORING(and not scary) http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[hell-angel]

Cerberus_e said:
that's what I want.
but those portals make me concerned, especially those of spawning enemies http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



I get your point, but even though some enemy spawn portals may lead to places, I guess those places are sealed off. And else you "need" to move through that portal anyway. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I wouldn't worry about it to much, I doubt any level designer wants to design a cool place and then let you finish the level without seeing that cool place. At least, I wouldn't want to. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Michelangelo said:
Sorry I brought it up

but you have to admit after a while doom3 is very BORING(and not scary) http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Prey is not doom 3. The only thing they have in common is the engine, and that tells you nothing about the gameplay. So please, stop arguing that it will ok. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And no, I don't think that Doom 3 got boring. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cerberus_e]

hell-angel said:

Cerberus_e said:
that's what I want.
but those portals make me concerned, especially those of spawning enemies http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



I get your point, but even though some enemy spawn portals may lead to places, I guess those places are sealed off. And else you "need" to move through that portal anyway. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I wouldn't worry about it to much, I doubt any level designer wants to design a cool place and then let you finish the level without seeing that cool place. At least, I wouldn't want to. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif




you don't have to go through the portal, because the portal ofa spawning enemy disappears when the enemy walked out of it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
maybe the place is sealed off... but where will the exit lead to? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
hopefully yo the same place as where you got from.
and I mean the exact same spot (like in deathwalking, you also return to the same spot)
and you think no level designer would create the ability to skip cool places? take a look at sin http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I don't know if you have played the game but... if you played the game then you probably missed a few cool parts http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Michelangelo said:
Sorry I brought it up

but you have to admit after a while doom3 is very BORING(and not scary) http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



what has that to do with prey?
right, nothing, zero%.
and even if this was a doom 3 thread, I don't have to admit something that is not true.

[Michelangelo]

I was just joking dude doom 3 is pretty Kool

and I AM looking forward to prey http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Micki!]

Michelangelo said:

and I AM looking forward to prey http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



YOU'D BETTER!!! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif

[hell-angel]

Cerberus_e said:

hell-angel said:

Cerberus_e said:
that's what I want.
but those portals make me concerned, especially those of spawning enemies http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



I get your point, but even though some enemy spawn portals may lead to places, I guess those places are sealed off. And else you "need" to move through that portal anyway. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I wouldn't worry about it to much, I doubt any level designer wants to design a cool place and then let you finish the level without seeing that cool place. At least, I wouldn't want to. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif




you don't have to go through the portal, because the portal ofa spawning enemy disappears when the enemy walked out of it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
maybe the place is sealed off... but where will the exit lead to? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
hopefully yo the same place as where you got from.
and I mean the exact same spot (like in deathwalking, you also return to the same spot)
and you think no level designer would create the ability to skip cool places? take a look at sin http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I don't know if you have played the game but... if you played the game then you probably missed a few cool parts http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif




Yeah ok, I guess you are right, let's just hope the designs are cool. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Never played sin though.



Micki! said:

Michelangelo said:

and I AM looking forward to prey http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



YOU'D BETTER!!! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif



That's right, if not, LEAVE!!!http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gifhttp://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gifhttp://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jaypo90]

Could someone give a definition of what they mean by linear or non-linear? We could argue that there isn't a single game that is non-linear, since there is both a beginning and an end for most single player games (Do MMORPG's count as non-linear? Since there is no ending while the game is still being played?). Even if there are multiple endings, do you feel that makes it non-linear? How many endings do you need in order for it to be non-linear?

Do you feel GTA is a good example of a game that is "non-linear" even though some would argue that there really isn't all the much to do? That while you're free to just beat up civilians to the end of time, you have no option but to play the available missions (which all follow a single plotline). Maybe our idea of non-linear is just having lots of things to do in the game, but not being required to do any of them to "complete" the game?

Personally, a game being linear doesn't bother me at all. It could actually be a good thing. That a game being non-linear or linear has no bearing or whether or not I enjoy the game. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Kristian Joensen]

Beeing linear and non-linear isn't about wheter or not there is a beginning or ending but is all about how you get there. It is the path between the two that is important not their existence or non-existence or their numbers.

[Cerberus_e]

exactly, I thought it was obvious from my posts than I'm talking about level design, not the story http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
far cry is non-linear in level design.

and hell-angel, you should play sin... it's very cool, and you'll miss at least 5% of all cool things in the game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Charlie wiederhold (now on DNF team) was a level designer so that's an extra reason http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
in sin it's that open ended that your actions affect the level design in later levels.
for example:
- level N has 2 endings, so level N+1 has 2 starts (each ending results in a different place where you start in the next level http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
- whether you destroy pump X in a certain level or not changes whether or not you are going to fight monster Y a few levels later http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
and all such stuff, and there are also secret levels, so you automatically miss good stuff if you miss them http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ZuljinRaynor]

Cerberus_e said:
far cry is non-linear in level design.



Pissed me off cause I like going everywhere I can on the map. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[hell-angel]

ZuljinRaynor said:

Cerberus_e said:
far cry is non-linear in level design.



Pissed me off cause I like going everywhere I can on the map. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif



Well, you still could, only thing was that it would take a lot of time. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif (it's a great game IMO)

@cerberus_e I see what I can do about not having played sin. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

As for linearity, I don't mind the game not having multiple endings, but a few different paths (even if some of them are a secret like a air shaft or something) would be cool.

Even if they are not in prey, if the immersiveness is good, I don't think I would notice. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Cerberus_e]

hell-angel said:
but a few different paths (even if some of them are a secret like a air shaft or something) would be cool.



on condition it doesn't allow you to skip a cool puzzle, that's what the thread is about http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[hell-angel]

Cerberus_e said:

hell-angel said:
but a few different paths (even if some of them are a secret like a air shaft or something) would be cool.



on condition it doesn't allow you to skip a cool puzzle, that's what the thread is about http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Ah, but that's a given considering the nature of this thread. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif