Level design revisited

[KaiserSoze]

The only comments I know of from George addressing level design is that they had scrapped the planned "go anywhere, do anything open world" and instead are making levels where there is a clear start and end.

Scott also mentioned awhile ago that the levels could take him a man year to build(which leaves me to believe a) he's slow http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif b) they're very big and detailed.(likely answer)

George has also said we'll pretty much get to "play with everything" in the levels. This sounds like we'll not only get alot of physics involved objects to kick/throw around but lots of triggered events such as Duke pulling a lever and crushing a pig cop with a forklift for example.

What I'd like to know is if the levels will basically be "sewn" together as we make progress through the game.

What I mean is, when we complete "Robot factory" level the story will explain to us the next level and lead us into it. We just won't go to a "Outer space" level for example.

I guess "Call of Duty" is a good example of the type of game play levels/story I'm driving at. All of the levels are pretty much connected together and flow really well.

I'm really looking forward to see what 3dr has cooking in terms of level design for DNF. I'm thinking we'll see levels that may become instant classics.

Also, will the levels feature real-time weather effects? Day time and night time cycles in a given level? Weather effects such as rain, wind, snow, etc, starting in a level then ending mid way through?

I presume multiple save checkpoints are in the levels?

Will Duke possibly have a locker he can store weapons in and choose for each level or part of the level ala the chest in the "Resident Evil" games or does he carry all his weapons on him?

I hope we get and underwater level too. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyone?

[Duke Rocks]

they had scrapped the planned "go anywhere, do anything open world" and instead are making levels where there is a clear start and end.





Wait a minute, I thought that the latter was always the case from the beginning and I'm pretty sure I'm right.

I'm almost a thousand percent positive that DNF was never being developed or intended to be a "go anywhere do anything world."

As for level design, that is the aspect of the game that I'm most curious about and I'd love to know what kind of levels we'll be seeing and as well as what their structure are.

I really really REALLY do not want a completely underwater level, maybe just a small section at the hoover dam/lake mead or something, but definitely not an entire level.

I think that the last time a completely underwater level was good was in super mario brothers http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


I am really dying to know if the hoover dam is still in the game, after playing Goldeneye: Rogue Agent. I was let down that the demolition of the dam was done via a cheesy CG cut scene, instead of in real time-though I guess that was the only way they could acheive on todays generation of consoles (save x box 360).

But with the new consoles out and better PCs being developed all the time, I'm sure it would be possible to make the whole damn, um dam blow up as the player moved around in the level.

As a matter of fact I think that the dam getting destroyed is almost a "must have" if the hoover dam is in the game.

After all, Duke is all about "blowing shit up" (George has used this quote MANY times. And if Duke is going to go the hoover dam and leave it intact.....it just wouldn't be Duke http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Being someone who's all about destruction, I'd also like to see vegas being torn apart in some way. I think that I recall a press release from ages ago saying that "Doctor Proton destroyed a part of vegas and took over Dukes hotel" or something along those lines.

And I'd think it would be cool to see the chaos as the story unfolds, rather than just opening the game with an already-been-taken over city.

Wouldn't it be cool to walk/drive down the strip as everything around you was blown the **** up?? And seeing people being crushed and killed in ridiculously violent ways as you struggel to save your own skin??


I think so and will be somewhat disappointed if DNF doesn't have those things in the game in some form.

That's just my two cents. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anyone agree?

[Michelangelo]

I just hope there careful with subplots http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[JayBiggS]

I just hope they havent changed the way that Duke3d's maps were in one aspect: The ability to take slightly different routes to attack your foes. Example: Duke3d, first level. Get the secret rocket launcher and blow a hole in the entrance to the cinema, or go around to the back of the cinema. From there you can go up to the projection room, go through the "peep show" section, or go through the arcade...in any order you want. That was one of the best things about Duke3d in my opinion and they can still tell a story and have scripted events (not so much cutscenes) if they keep that type of map layout. It added so much replayability to the game, and you just dont see any FPS games in the past few years that have that. You can finish HL2 or Doom 3 once, but the second time through its usually the same experience repeated. If they were really clever, they could pull it off and the game would be much more enjoyable in my opinion.

[Sayantan]

Duke Rocks said:
Wait a minute, I thought that the latter was always the case from the beginning and I'm pretty sure I'm right.




IMO Scott is a person who's very much carefull to stories. The story driven passion doesn't last if you give the player to rome wherever he wants (later GTAs).

[hell-angel]

The level design is going to be cool, I am sure of that. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Why am I so sure, very simple, even though everything from pre 2003 was thrown away, the ideas and lessons learned allways remain, so they had something that didn't work, threw it away but kept the cool stuff. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif DNF is gonna rock. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif

[zakath]

nowdays I hate nothing more in games than having a straight tunnel to run from the beginning to end without having any chance of sidetrack or do anything.

For example. COD. should you go off the designed path OH MAN IT'S A MINEFIELD!!

sigh. duke did it nicely enough, hopefully they won't stray too far from that design or go even further. Atleast I don't want another 'tunnel shooter'.

[Cerberus_e]

zakath said:
nowdays I hate nothing more in games than having a straight tunnel to run from the beginning to end without having any chance of sidetrack or do anything.

For example. COD. should you go off the designed path OH MAN IT'S A MINEFIELD!!



actually, I like it that way.

[Assault]

Duke Rocks said:

I really really REALLY do not want a completely underwater level, maybe just a small section at the hoover dam/lake mead or something, but definitely not an entire level.





Then its time someone does it right. Underwater levels have much more potential than you think. Every level could be superb if you put a lot of thought into it. Although, you are right that most underwater levels get slow and boring after awhile, I still think that there is a lot that hasn’t been done yet in an underwater level.

Something along the lines of Deux Ex underwater-base level and canal level in Honk Kong, were good even though they didn’t take part of the entire level.

[Cerberus_e]

I don't like the limited breath in underwater levels.
give me a suit with unlimited oxygen in a game and I'll enjoy it!
I think no one lives forever's shinking ship was a great level.

[hell-angel]

Cerberus_e said:
I don't like the limited breath in underwater levels.
give me a suit with unlimited oxygen in a game and I'll enjoy it!
I think no one lives forever's shinking ship was a great level.



Or else more then sufficient oxygen bottles to refill my gear. Doom 3: ROE had one level with barely enough oxygen and that was really annoying with those huge monsters in your way. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Cerberus_e]

hell-angel said:

Cerberus_e said:
I don't like the limited breath in underwater levels.
give me a suit with unlimited oxygen in a game and I'll enjoy it!
I think no one lives forever's shinking ship was a great level.



Or else more then sufficient oxygen bottles to refill my gear. Doom 3: ROE had one level with barely enough oxygen and that was really annoying with those huge monsters in your way. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif



I managed to do that just in time http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[hell-angel]

Well, I finished it, but it was just difficult and annoying. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Assault]

Of course a suit would be necessary, something that you acquire in the first steps of the level. It's ridiculous to let someone breathe over ten minutes without a suit... Like Turok.
Two to three minutes without a suit is just about right.

[zakath]

Assault said:
It's ridiculous to let someone breathe over ten minutes without a suit... Like Turok.




or Guybrush!

[Sayantan]

Assault said:

Duke Rocks said:

I really really REALLY do not want a completely underwater level, maybe just a small section at the hoover dam/lake mead or something, but definitely not an entire level.





Then its time someone does it right. Underwater levels have much more potential than you think. Every level could be superb if you put a lot of thought into it. Although, you are right that most underwater levels get slow and boring after awhile, I still think that there is a lot that hasn’t been done yet in an underwater level.

Something along the lines of Deux Ex underwater-base level and canal level in Honk Kong, were good even though they didn’t take part of the entire level.



The underwater level in Tomb Raider 5 is one of the best I've seen/played. That said.

[Assault]

zakath said:

Assault said:
It's ridiculous to let someone breathe over ten minutes without a suit... Like Turok.




or Guybrush!



HAHA! At the first Monkey Island, when you get thrown into the water with a stone weight chained to your foot, while surrounded by a bunch of sharp objects. All you have to do is pickup that weight, pure genius!

[Imfamous]

JayBiggS said:
I just hope they havent changed the way that Duke3d's maps were in one aspect: The ability to take slightly different routes to attack your foes. Example: Duke3d, first level. Get the secret rocket launcher and blow a hole in the entrance to the cinema, or go around to the back of the cinema. From there you can go up to the projection room, go through the "peep show" section, or go through the arcade...in any order you want. That was one of the best things about Duke3d in my opinion and they can still tell a story and have scripted events (not so much cutscenes) if they keep that type of map layout. It added so much replayability to the game, and you just dont see any FPS games in the past few years that have that. You can finish HL2 or Doom 3 once, but the second time through its usually the same experience repeated. If they were really clever, they could pull it off and the game would be much more enjoyable in my opinion.

[mysteryperfecta]

I've never heard any talk of nonlinear gameplay in DNF, either. I wouldn't mind seeing an FPS that gives the player the opportunity to get involved in their choice of simultaneous conflicts, in the order they see fit (with choices bringing consequences), but that's a pipe dream.

I'm pretty sure they'll keep the Duke3d-ism of secret passageways (via ductwork, hidden entrances). Otherwise, I suspect DNF will be pretty linear. As long as the linearity feels intuitive and organic to the storyline/action/level design, and therefore doesn't feel like we're being led on a leash, then I don't mind.

[SyntaxN]

Awesome leveldesign is damn important, 3dr has some quality guys for sure http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I don´t have any problems with those *go from A to B* levels, but they should give me some feeling of freedom even when I´m not free at all!
That´s kinda hard to do but hey it´s for DNF http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Tim. Just Tim.]

SyntaxN said:
Awesome leveldesign is damn important, 3dr has some quality guys for sure http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I don´t have any problems with those *go from A to B* levels, but they should give me some feeling of freedom even when I´m not free at all!
That´s kinda hard to do but hey it´s for DNF http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



I dont know what you guys are talking about... My favorite levels in Duke3d included Hollywood holocaust and LA Rumble... these levels were very open and non-linear in my opinion. I love them for that reason.

[SyntaxN]

I don´t said that I don´t like levels with more than one way to get it done, but I don´t expect DNF´s levels to be like that so I hope they feel at least "open" even when they aren´t open at all http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MAT]

Duke Rocks said:










I am really dying to know if the hoover dam is still in the game, after playing Goldeneye: Rogue Agent. I was let down that the demolition of the dam was done via a cheesy CG cut scene, instead of in real time-though I guess that was the only way they could acheive on todays generation of consoles (save x box 360).

But with the new consoles out and better PCs being developed all the time, I'm sure it would be possible to make the whole damn, um dam blow up as the player moved around in the level.

As a matter of fact I think that the dam getting destroyed is almost a "must have" if the hoover dam is in the game.




Damn dude, I'm sorry for you but you are really obsessed with demolishing the Hoover dam, aren't you? Childhood fantasy? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Duke Rocks]

Damn dude, I'm sorry for you but you are really obsessed with demolishing the Hoover dam, aren't you? Childhood fantasy?



lol, no.....it's only been my interest to blow up the hoover dam (in a game) when I heard that the dam would be featured in DNF.....and after I read the "Come Get Some" feature article(I think it was from planetquake) that very strongly suggested that this was going to happen........but alas, that was a good half decade ago, who knows what has changed/stayed the same since?

[Yatta]

I presume multiple save checkpoints are in the levels?



You'll be able to save anytime you like. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Assault]

You can make non-linear levels obvious and you can make them unobvious.
An obvious linear level is a level where you would run in a motel hallway filled with locked doors everywhere. There would only be one door, which you can enter, out of 20 that you can't open. This design was done in Max Payne, just to name one, and I didn't like it. It's like marking your way from cut-scene to cut-scene.

Non-linearity, however can be done right, in making it not that obvious. The interactivity in Duke is really going to help out, you will have lots of things to play with, allowing you to explore and spend more times in certain rooms. Adding secrets, extra rooms and vents are all great for designing it right.

[Micki!]

Yatta said:



I presume multiple save checkpoints are in the levels?



You'll be able to save anytime you like. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Yes, F5 is the quicksave key...
George confirmed that... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[hell-angel]

MAT said:

Duke Rocks said:
I am really dying to know if the hoover dam is still in the game, after playing Goldeneye: Rogue Agent. I was let down that the demolition of the dam was done via a cheesy CG cut scene, instead of in real time-though I guess that was the only way they could acheive on todays generation of consoles (save x box 360).

But with the new consoles out and better PCs being developed all the time, I'm sure it would be possible to make the whole damn, um dam blow up as the player moved around in the level.

As a matter of fact I think that the dam getting destroyed is almost a "must have" if the hoover dam is in the game.




Damn dude, I'm sorry for you but you are really obsessed with demolishing the Hoover dam, aren't you? Childhood fantasy? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Well, it would be cool to blow it up. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif But only if the resulting water flood will look realistically. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Viper Knight]

Yatta said:



I presume multiple save checkpoints are in the levels?



You'll be able to save anytime you like. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


That's good but having to save manually breaks the immersion and sometimes you may forget to save if you are heavily immersed. In my opinion, auto saving should be a feature of all modern day first person shooters in addition to having manual 'anytime' saving.

[Kalki]

Imfamous said:

JayBiggS said:
I just hope they havent changed the way that Duke3d's maps were in one aspect: The ability to take slightly different routes to attack your foes. Example: Duke3d, first level. Get the secret rocket launcher and blow a hole in the entrance to the cinema, or go around to the back of the cinema. From there you can go up to the projection room, go through the "peep show" section, or go through the arcade...in any order you want. That was one of the best things about Duke3d in my opinion and they can still tell a story and have scripted events (not so much cutscenes) if they keep that type of map layout. It added so much replayability to the game, and you just dont see any FPS games in the past few years that have that. You can finish HL2 or Doom 3 once, but the second time through its usually the same experience repeated. If they were really clever, they could pull it off and the game would be much more enjoyable in my opinion.





Seconded.

[hell-angel]

Kalki said:

JayBiggS said:
I just hope they havent changed the way that Duke3d's maps were in one aspect: The ability to take slightly different routes to attack your foes. Example: Duke3d, first level. Get the secret rocket launcher and blow a hole in the entrance to the cinema, or go around to the back of the cinema. From there you can go up to the projection room, go through the "peep show" section, or go through the arcade...in any order you want. That was one of the best things about Duke3d in my opinion and they can still tell a story and have scripted events (not so much cutscenes) if they keep that type of map layout. It added so much replayability to the game, and you just dont see any FPS games in the past few years that have that. You can finish HL2 or Doom 3 once, but the second time through its usually the same experience repeated. If they were really clever, they could pull it off and the game would be much more enjoyable in my opinion.



Seconded.



Same for me. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Assault]

Viper Knight said:

Yatta said:



I presume multiple save checkpoints are in the levels?



You'll be able to save anytime you like. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


That's good but having to save manually breaks the immersion and sometimes you may forget to save if you are heavily immersed. In my opinion, auto saving should be a feature of all modern day first person shooters in addition to having manual 'anytime' saving.



Adding to that, no save while in boss battles and the game auto saves before.

[hell-angel]

Assault said:

Viper Knight said:

Yatta said:



I presume multiple save checkpoints are in the levels?



You'll be able to save anytime you like. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


That's good but having to save manually breaks the immersion and sometimes you may forget to save if you are heavily immersed. In my opinion, auto saving should be a feature of all modern day first person shooters in addition to having manual 'anytime' saving.



Adding to that, no save while in boss battles and the game auto saves before.



That sucks, and I believe that GB has confirmed that quicksave will be in and that you can save during boss battles as well. Was an old post though, not on the forums anymore.

[Viper Knight]

Assault said:

Viper Knight said:

Yatta said:



I presume multiple save checkpoints are in the levels?



You'll be able to save anytime you like. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


That's good but having to save manually breaks the immersion and sometimes you may forget to save if you are heavily immersed. In my opinion, auto saving should be a feature of all modern day first person shooters in addition to having manual 'anytime' saving.



Adding to that, no save while in boss battles and the game auto saves before.


If you can't control yourself enough to not save the game during a boss battle then that's your problem, not the designers.

[hell-angel]

Viper Knight said:

Assault said:

Viper Knight said:

Yatta said:



I presume multiple save checkpoints are in the levels?



You'll be able to save anytime you like. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


That's good but having to save manually breaks the immersion and sometimes you may forget to save if you are heavily immersed. In my opinion, auto saving should be a feature of all modern day first person shooters in addition to having manual 'anytime' saving.



Adding to that, no save while in boss battles and the game auto saves before.


If you can't control yourself enough to not save the game during a boss battle then that's your problem, not the designers.


I agree, why should those who like save have to suffer under those who doesn't like them and can't control themselfs.

I do agree with the autosave though. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Assault]

Viper Knight said:

Assault said:

Viper Knight said:

Yatta said:



I presume multiple save checkpoints are in the levels?



You'll be able to save anytime you like. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


That's good but having to save manually breaks the immersion and sometimes you may forget to save if you are heavily immersed. In my opinion, auto saving should be a feature of all modern day first person shooters in addition to having manual 'anytime' saving.



Adding to that, no save while in boss battles and the game auto saves before.


If you can't control yourself enough to not save the game during a boss battle then that's your problem, not the designers.



Never said it’s a problem, but quicksaves make an easier game. People often get through the game much faster this way. I'm not against it though, I am actually for quicksaves, but boss battles should be meant to be more intense, I think it’s a much better experience to deal with a boss without loading in the middle of battle. It's a shame that people would miss this, but like you said, no one is forced to save if the don't want to.

[Cerberus_e]

if a game wants to prevent me from quicksaving every 30 seconds, then the solution is having a good autosave system.
I NEVER quicksave in HL/HL2/quake 4... but I quicksave evry 30 seconds in games like doom 3 because they lack an autosave function.

so I hope there are frequent autosaves http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
no need to "disable" quicksaves during boss fights for me.

lots of people complain about far cry's save system, but I never noticed trouble because of the frequent saves (I never feel the need to quicksave during such games, therefore I didn't notice far cry's bad autosave system) http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

George said in the past DNF will let you save anywhere, that the default quicksave key will be F5 and that the game will cost $50!
but he hasn't said anything about autosaves http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[hell-angel]

I only quicksave on difficult spot, but I do it automatically so it doesn't break the immersion for me. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Cerberus_e]

you're conditioned! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[hell-angel]

Cerberus_e said:
you're conditioned! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif



I am trained, trained to quicksave. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Viper Knight]

Cerberus_e said:
if a game wants to prevent me from quicksaving every 30 seconds, then the solution is having a good autosave system.
I NEVER quicksave in HL/HL2/quake 4... but I quicksave evry 30 seconds in games like doom 3 because they lack an autosave function.


The way I tend to play games nowadays, wether they have an autosave system or not, is to only save in places where I have died before. For example, I start a game and play until I die. Then, I start the game again and right before I get up to the point where I died before I save the game. With this logic, however, if I get through most of a game and I die, I'd have to play it all over again. Fortuantely, most games I play (Eg. Duke Nukem 3D and Shadow Warrior) are level-based so if I die I just restart the level I'm on, albeit having to go back to having only starting weapons (Eg. only pistol and mighty foot in Duke).

I still, personally, find autosave a handy feature though like if, for example, there is a power outage. What would be good though is if the game autosaves when you quit. I don't know any game that does that. And maybe even more ingenious would be an autosave system which records the places you can't seem to get passed and then saves the game right before you attempt to get passed them again. Of course, this should only be an optional feature. The trick with this sort of stuff, as I'm sure George Broussard is well aware, is to give the player the freedom to do what he wants.

[Cerberus_e]

as long as it isn't bad as in serious sam 2: sometimes the game autosaves before the previous battle is done!
so when you die almost at the end of a fight, the game reloads AFTER that fight http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif
this is so NOT fun, and causes me to have to restart the whole level, just because I don't like cheating like that.
because it's not like there is a menu with all your autosaves so you can just pick your previous save http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

serious sam 2 is the only game where I absolutely HATE dying... because of that! it kills the game.

[hell-angel]

Cerberus_e said:
as long as it isn't bad as in serious sam 2: sometimes the game autosaves before the previous battle is done!
so when you die almost at the end of a fight, the game reloads AFTER that fight http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif
this is so NOT fun, and causes me to have to restart the whole level, just because I don't like cheating like that.
because it's not like there is a menu with all your autosaves so you can just pick your previous save http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

serious sam 2 is the only game where I absolutely HATE dying... because of that! it kills the game.



so you like dying?? I can help with that. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

Seriously, that is indeed a annoying feature of SS2. Luckily I never encountered that because I usually move backwards in a defending pattern so the game doesn't autosave for me in battle. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif