From DN3D to DNF

[Gaut]

The purpose of this post is NOT i want this and that feature from dn3d in dnf but how they would work in dnf and be sure to think about that before you post thank you!

1. First the nicest thing about dn3d was the incredibly fast runspeed wich in combination with some really destructive weapons got you into a real killingfrenzy.
But how would that work in dnf?
And fast runspeed without a lagfree computer would probably suck...what do you guys think?

2.I know there probably wont be any in-game music but i loved the music from dn3d it would be nice to be able to acivate those tracs with a cheat-code or a "classic-mode" in options or something.

i´ll be posting more things as i come up with them if theres any interest of discussing these things.

[Cerberus_e]

Gaut said:
1. First the nicest thing about dn3d was the incredibly fast runspeed wich in combination with some really destructive weapons got you into a real killingfrenzy.
But how would that work in dnf?
And fast runspeed without a lagfree computer would probably suck...what do you guys think?



yes, I would hate it if they cut moving speed down.
Just compare Quake 2 and Quake 4.
in Quake 2 you get that nice and fast moving speed, but in Quake 4 they bothered as much to change Doom 3's movement speed as they bothered to change its skill level descriptions http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif

[Gaut]

3. Jetpack!
The jetpack from dn3d is a little weird and probably wouldnt work like it in dnf without "breaking the illusion"
should probably be more like the game "Giants" where u slowly accelerated and had about 10 secs boost time before it overheated and u had to land for it to work...comments?

[Cerberus_e]

I want it to be exactly like in duke manhattan project, where gravity plays a role http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
and with the jetpack leaving a trail of black smoke behind.

not like in Duke3D where the jetpack just basically turned off gravity and you can go up and down.

[hell-angel]

Cerberus_e said:
I want it to be exactly like in duke manhattan project, where gravity plays a role http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
and with the jetpack leaving a trail of black smoke behind.

not like in Duke3D where the jetpack just basically turned off gravity and you can go up and down.



Well, the Jetpack should allow you to go up and down. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

As for the rest, I hope the speed is still fast and fitting. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Cerberus_e]

hell-angel said:

Cerberus_e said:
I want it to be exactly like in duke manhattan project, where gravity plays a role http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
and with the jetpack leaving a trail of black smoke behind.

not like in Duke3D where the jetpack just basically turned off gravity and you can go up and down.



Well, the Jetpack should allow you to go up and down. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



what I meant was: there should only be a "go up" key, and gravity should take you down http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kalki]

Cerberus_e said:

Gaut said:
1. First the nicest thing about dn3d was the incredibly fast runspeed wich in combination with some really destructive weapons got you into a real killingfrenzy.
But how would that work in dnf?
And fast runspeed without a lagfree computer would probably suck...what do you guys think?



yes, I would hate it if they cut moving speed down.




I liked Duke3D's runspeed and think it would be great in larger levels but I'd like it slightly reduced for DNF because there are vehicles in this game which have to be faster without being too fast. And whether running or driving, I'd like to start off slow and accelerate quickly to a top speed.


Gaut said:
3. Jetpack!
The jetpack from dn3d is a little weird and probably wouldnt work like it in dnf without "breaking the illusion"



DN:MP's jetpack was a nice implementation indeed, only we should be able to turn it off to be reused later. Thrust keeps you up, lack of it sends you down. And you should go up faster than Duke3D.

[Tim. Just Tim.]

I really like the idea of the jetpack where gravity is taken into account. It sounds more like a 'real-life' jetpack would be, and thus would be more logical to control.

One thing that I really really hope they dont loose going from the 2d engine of Duke3d to the 3d engine of DNF, is the cool death animations.

A 2d engine allows you to make animations however you want, while a 3d engine seems to constrain you to the physics and ragdoll and dismemberment features of the game.

Take Doom 1 & 2 for example. When you shoot the chaingun guy with the shotgun, he falls apart into a pile of red liquid and little red chunks. Ive never seen a cooler/better death in any FPS than that, and that was [u]1993</u>. I guess it just goes to show that 3d games are not necessarily better than 2d in every aspect. I hope 3dr finds a way to make the death 'animations' entirely flexible in DNF, and not be constrained to the rules/capabilities of the DNF engine.

I wonder if anyone from 3dr is actually reading these suggestions? The only feedback we really get is that once in a while a thread will get locked/deleted, or even a specific post within a thread will get deleted.

[hell-angel]

Cerberus_e said:

hell-angel said:

Cerberus_e said:
I want it to be exactly like in duke manhattan project, where gravity plays a role http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
and with the jetpack leaving a trail of black smoke behind.

not like in Duke3D where the jetpack just basically turned off gravity and you can go up and down.



Well, the Jetpack should allow you to go up and down. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



what I meant was: there should only be a "go up" key, and gravity should take you down http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



No really since the thruster would stay at a "hover" level if you don't do anything while the up and down key would increase/decrease the thruster power making you go up/donw. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Tim. Just Tim. said:
One thing that I really really hope they dont loose going from the 2d engine of Duke3d to the 3d engine of DNF, is the cool death animations.

A 2d engine allows you to make animations however you want, while a 3d engine seems to constrain you to the physics and ragdoll and dismemberment features of the game.

Take Doom 1 & 2 for example. When you shoot the chaingun guy with the shotgun, he falls apart into a pile of red liquid and little red chunks. Ive never seen a cooler/better death in any FPS than that, and that was [u]1993</u>. I guess it just goes to show that 3d games are not necessarily better than 2d in every aspect. I hope 3dr finds a way to make the death 'animations' entirely flexible in DNF, and not be constrained to the rules/capabilities of the DNF engine.



They can do the same in 3D, but the way that is currently standard is quicker to be created and more "real". Although gibs are getting back in more and more. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/devilish.gif



I wonder if anyone from 3dr is actually reading these suggestions? The only feedback we really get is that once in a while a thread will get locked/deleted, or even a specific post within a thread will get deleted.



They (or at least GB and Joe) post on these forums regularly and talk about ideas. We don't know about the rest because we are not 100% sure of all the employees there since they will not tell us. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

But they post and they read and I am pretty sure that some ideas from here are in or at least are equivelant to what is in. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
(which doesn't have to mean it came from here though. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

Also, there are several threads where they ask for information or ideas (like scripted events and such) just look for threads started by Joe or George Broussard. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kristian Joensen]

Charlie reads the forums regularly too. I am sure some of the new ones lurk here from time to time too.

[psyborg]

Cerberus_e said:


yes, I would hate it if they cut moving speed down.
Just compare Quake 2 and Quake 4.
in Quake 2 you get that nice and fast moving speed, but in Quake 4




did u play the whole game?

[psyborg]

[b]Tim. Just Tim. said:


A 2d engine allows you to make animations however you want, while a 3d engine seems to constrain you to the physics and ragdoll and dismemberment features of the game.




ragdoll physics is a feature not a constraint, a very realistic one at that.

[Tim. Just Tim.]

psyborg said:

Tim. Just Tim. said:


A 2d engine allows you to make animations however you want, while a 3d engine seems to constrain you to the physics and ragdoll and dismemberment features of the game.




ragdoll physics is a feature not a constraint, a very realistic one at that.




Sure, ragdoll physics implements some very complex and impressive physics simulation stuff, but its not realistic in all cases.

For a body falling down some stairs, ragdoll is the perfect tool.

But If I shoot a guy point blank in the face with a shotty, ragdoll simply wont cut it; the results certainly arnt 'realistic'.

Using ragdoll in this case results in the following:The guy flies backwards, spining head over heels about his center of gravity (his waist).

Not bad, but I happen to think that a more realisitc response would be the following: The guy's head turns to red liquid and little brain chunkies, and the liquid mass flies backward and splatters all over the place. The body (minus the head) falls straight down, limp. It does not fly accross the room.

Thats an example of something that ragdoll doesnt handle, so in that case, yes, ragdoll is a constraint, limitation.

In order to accomplish what I described in DNF, I imagine they will need some pretty fancy coding, and frankly, I doubt it will make it in.

Back in 1993 though, all ID software had to do was a few frames of animation to accomplish a really really cool death for chaingunguy.

That was my point; I hope 3dr finds a way to make death animations as flexible as they were back in 2D days.


in short:

Back in 2d games (Doom1,2, Duke3d) when you shoot a bad guy for the first time, there is no telling what will happen.

In 3d games, when you shoot a bad guy for the first time, you all ready have a pretty damn good idea exactly what will happen, because the 3d game/physics engine has certain rules and limitations and there are, in general, no exceptions to these rules. You dont implement/buy a state of the art physics system, and then not use it.

Im just hoping that DNF will have a few special cases w.r.t enemy deaths.

[psyborg]

[b]Tim. Just Tim. said:
But If I shoot a guy point blank in the face with a shotty, ragdoll simply wont cut it; the results certainly arnt 'realistic'.

Using ragdoll in this case results in the following:The guy flies backwards, spining head over heels about his center of gravity (his waist).

Not bad, but I happen to think that a more realisitc response would be the following: The guy's head turns to red liquid and little brain chunkies, and the liquid mass flies backward and splatters all over the place. The body (minus the head) falls straight down, limp. It does not fly accross the room.






i see ur point but it depends on the game and how well the ragdoll physics system is implemented, fear is a good example which i think avoids the downfalls u mentioned and im sure dnf would be too.

[Cerberus_e]

hell-angel said:

Cerberus_e said:

hell-angel said:

Cerberus_e said:
I want it to be exactly like in duke manhattan project, where gravity plays a role http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
and with the jetpack leaving a trail of black smoke behind.

not like in Duke3D where the jetpack just basically turned off gravity and you can go up and down.



Well, the Jetpack should allow you to go up and down. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



what I meant was: there should only be a "go up" key, and gravity should take you down http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



No really since the thruster would stay at a "hover" level if you don't do anything while the up and down key would increase/decrease the thruster power making you go up/donw. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



then it's implemented like in duke3D, which doesn't feel as cool s in duke: MP http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Assault]

Cerberus_e said:

hell-angel said:

Cerberus_e said:

hell-angel said:

Cerberus_e said:
I want it to be exactly like in duke manhattan project, where gravity plays a role http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
and with the jetpack leaving a trail of black smoke behind.

not like in Duke3D where the jetpack just basically turned off gravity and you can go up and down.



Well, the Jetpack should allow you to go up and down. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



what I meant was: there should only be a "go up" key, and gravity should take you down http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



No really since the thruster would stay at a "hover" level if you don't do anything while the up and down key would increase/decrease the thruster power making you go up/donw. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



then it's implemented like in duke3D, which doesn't feel as cool s in duke: MP http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



To make the action better, why not make Duke be able to loop and spin in the air.

[Denz]

Tim. Just Tim. said:
But If I shoot a guy point blank in the face with a shotty, ragdoll simply wont cut it; the results certainly arnt 'realistic'.

[...]

It does not fly accross the room.






Well then bullets have to go through the head, and not stop brutally when it hits the head.

[FireFly]

Tim. Just Tim. said:
Sure, ragdoll physics implements some very complex and impressive physics simulation stuff, but its not realistic in all cases.

For a body falling down some stairs, ragdoll is the perfect tool.

But If I shoot a guy point blank in the face with a shotty, ragdoll simply wont cut it; the results certainly arnt 'realistic'.

Using ragdoll in this case results in the following:The guy flies backwards, spining head over heels about his center of gravity (his waist).

Not bad, but I happen to think that a more realisitc response would be the following: The guy's head turns to red liquid and little brain chunkies, and the liquid mass flies backward and splatters all over the place. The body (minus the head) falls straight down, limp. It does not fly accross the room.

Thats an example of something that ragdoll doesnt handle, so in that case, yes, ragdoll is a constraint, limitation.


The purpose of ragdoll is to simulate the individual movement of bones in a body, in response to external forces. You're free to do what you want outside of that bone simulation.

In your example, ragdoll would still handle the body's fall, and the head would simply be modeled in separate pieces, allowing it to fragment upon impact. Blood would be handled through the particle system, or alternatively by a branch of the physics system (liquid simulation). Each individual fragment could also be physically simulated.

In fact George has confirmed that headshots will cause enemies' heads to splatter.

[hell-angel]

FireFly said:

Tim. Just Tim. said:
Sure, ragdoll physics implements some very complex and impressive physics simulation stuff, but its not realistic in all cases.

For a body falling down some stairs, ragdoll is the perfect tool.

But If I shoot a guy point blank in the face with a shotty, ragdoll simply wont cut it; the results certainly arnt 'realistic'.

Using ragdoll in this case results in the following:The guy flies backwards, spining head over heels about his center of gravity (his waist).

Not bad, but I happen to think that a more realisitc response would be the following: The guy's head turns to red liquid and little brain chunkies, and the liquid mass flies backward and splatters all over the place. The body (minus the head) falls straight down, limp. It does not fly accross the room.

Thats an example of something that ragdoll doesnt handle, so in that case, yes, ragdoll is a constraint, limitation.


The purpose of ragdoll is to simulate the individual movement of bones in a body, in response to external forces. You're free to do what you want outside of that bone simulation.

In your example, ragdoll would still handle the body's fall, and the head would simply be modeled in separate pieces, allowing it to fragment upon impact. Blood would be handled through the particle system, or alternatively by a branch of the physics system (liquid simulation). Each individual fragment could also be physically simulated.

In fact George has confirmed that headshots will cause enemies' heads to splatter.



Firefly is correct, the only reason why it doesn't act realisticly in most games is because that it looks so much cool to see the enemy fly away after being shot by a shot gun in stead of simply falling down. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[hell-angel]

Cerberus_e said:

hell-angel said:
No really since the thruster would stay at a "hover" level if you don't do anything while the up and down key would increase/decrease the thruster power making you go up/donw. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



then it's implemented like in duke3D, which doesn't feel as cool s in duke: MP http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



It does to me. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Assault]

hell-angel said:

FireFly said:

Tim. Just Tim. said:
Sure, ragdoll physics implements some very complex and impressive physics simulation stuff, but its not realistic in all cases.

For a body falling down some stairs, ragdoll is the perfect tool.

But If I shoot a guy point blank in the face with a shotty, ragdoll simply wont cut it; the results certainly arnt 'realistic'.

Using ragdoll in this case results in the following:The guy flies backwards, spining head over heels about his center of gravity (his waist).

Not bad, but I happen to think that a more realisitc response would be the following: The guy's head turns to red liquid and little brain chunkies, and the liquid mass flies backward and splatters all over the place. The body (minus the head) falls straight down, limp. It does not fly accross the room.

Thats an example of something that ragdoll doesnt handle, so in that case, yes, ragdoll is a constraint, limitation.


The purpose of ragdoll is to simulate the individual movement of bones in a body, in response to external forces. You're free to do what you want outside of that bone simulation.

In your example, ragdoll would still handle the body's fall, and the head would simply be modeled in separate pieces, allowing it to fragment upon impact. Blood would be handled through the particle system, or alternatively by a branch of the physics system (liquid simulation). Each individual fragment could also be physically simulated.

In fact George has confirmed that headshots will cause enemies' heads to splatter.



Firefly is correct, the only reason why it doesn't act realisticly in most games is because that it looks so much cool to see the enemy fly away after being shot by a shot gun in stead of simply falling down. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Well, seeing someone thud on the ground with his head splattering when hitting down, is better than seeing him fly a mile when shot at point zero. If you remember how cool the death animations in the first Turok were, then you know that seeing them crawl in pain can be just as cool as ragdoll. If there is no reason to make someone fly to the air, then its best it doesn’t happen.

[hell-angel]

Assault said:
Well, seeing someone thud on the ground with his head splattering when hitting down, is better than seeing him fly a mile when shot at point zero. If you remember how cool the death animations in the first Turok were, then you know that seeing them crawl in pain can be just as cool as ragdoll. If there is no reason to make someone fly to the air, then its best it doesn’t happen.



He will also thud down on the floor after the flight. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif As for crawling in pain, after I shot him with a shotgun at point blank range, he will not be crawling in pain anymore. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Steve]

Just compare Quake 2 and Quake 4.
in Quake 2 you get that nice and fast moving speed, but in Quake 4 they bothered as much to change Doom 3's movement speed as they bothered to change its skill level descriptions


But once you become a strogg the run speed is increased. But still slow by old school standards http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

I liked the non-linear feel to the old DN3D levels. Hope they do the same with the DNF levels.

[Assault]

hell-angel said:

Assault said:
Well, seeing someone thud on the ground with his head splattering when hitting down, is better than seeing him fly a mile when shot at point zero. If you remember how cool the death animations in the first Turok were, then you know that seeing them crawl in pain can be just as cool as ragdoll. If there is no reason to make someone fly to the air, then its best it doesn’t happen.



He will also thud down on the floor after the flight. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif As for crawling in pain, after I shot him with a shotgun at point blank range, he will not be crawling in pain anymore. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Haha, yeah, you’re a sick bastard http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I still think that you can make more realistic and gory deaths. Soldier of Fortune was not bad, but there weren’t many types of enemies so it got old after some time.
Imagine things dieing like in the Starship Troopers movie, how cool would that be?

[hell-angel]

Assault said:

hell-angel said:

Assault said:
Well, seeing someone thud on the ground with his head splattering when hitting down, is better than seeing him fly a mile when shot at point zero. If you remember how cool the death animations in the first Turok were, then you know that seeing them crawl in pain can be just as cool as ragdoll. If there is no reason to make someone fly to the air, then its best it doesn’t happen.



He will also thud down on the floor after the flight. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif As for crawling in pain, after I shot him with a shotgun at point blank range, he will not be crawling in pain anymore. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Haha, yeah, you’re a sick bastard http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif



And proud of it. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif


I still think that you can make more realistic and gory deaths. Soldier of Fortune was not bad, but there weren’t many types of enemies so it got old after some time.
Imagine things dieing like in the Starship Troopers movie, how cool would that be?



Let's nuke em. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif