Just say "No" to sequels...

[Drazula]

Sequels are slowing game innovation to a crawl. For someone like me to say that, who loves old skool games, it must be pretty darn noticeable. But it is not just about gameplay. It is also about new game environments, new game worlds and new expectations. For example, no one would ever claim that Serious Sam was innovative, but it was refreshingly new when it was released. By the time SS2 rolled around, we knew what to expect.

Publishers love sequels because they are safe cash cows. I am not sure what developers think of them (I'm sure the ones in it for the money love them too).

C'mon. After a game is released and a couple of expansions, isn't that enough? This nonsense of sequels right on the heals of the originals is ridiculous. There needs to be a good length of time between the original and the sequel. Perhaps even a different game or two. Like Blizzard did a few years ago. After WarCraft 2, they created Diablo and StarCraft, before releasing WarCraft 3.

We, as gamers, should demand new games worlds before a developer falls back on the nice safe sequel. We need to take a stand now. Just say "NO" to sequels!

[John]

Youre right. Quake IV and Doom III must go! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Cerberus_e]

Drazula said:
We, as gamers, should demand new games worlds before a developer falls back on the nice safe sequel. We need to take a stand now. Just say "NO" to sequels!



I disagree.
it's not because some bad sequels come out that all sequels have to stop.

summarized: you don't dislike sequels, you dislike bad sequels http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[NutWrench]

John said:
Youre right. Quake IV and Doom III must go! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



And DNF, too!

[Travis]

NutWrench said:

John said:
Youre right. Quake IV and Doom III must go! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



And DNF, too!



But 3D Realms are giving us a 10 year Duke break, and making ten billion games in between. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Altered Reality]

NutWrench said:

John said:
Youre right. Quake IV and Doom III must go! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



And DNF, too!


I was about to post that. DNF is a sequel , but I would definitely NOT say "no" to DNF!

[clayasaurus]

Just rename it to BMF, Bombshell Nukem Forever http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

[Wamplet]

While there are plenty of sequels that suck, I am all for them.

Eventualy, they will get one right.

[Blade Nightflame]

clayasaurus said:
Just rename it to BMF, Bombshell Nukem Forever http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif



What the F happens to the M? Wouldn't that be BNF, else, it'd be spelled " Bombshell Mukem Forever " http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[clayasaurus]

hehe, I guess I was thinking of 'Bad Mother F#$@#$' when I posted it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dopefish.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif *runs away*

[ZuljinRaynor]

John said:
Youre right. Quake IV and Doom III must go! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


But its been a while between those. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tinyted.gif
And plus Quake 3 was not a sequal to Quake 2. Quake 4 and Quake 2 = 6. :O

[Twin]

depends on the sequal to be honest...

with something like the new prince of persia series...i thought having it as a trilogy was perfect...personally after completing sands of time i couldn't wait until warrior within...then after i completed that i couldn't wait until the two thrones...and now that i've completed two thrones i feel as though i'm satisfied with that series of prince of persia titles...you know, if it's done right then sequals are great to carry on and then gracefully end a story...

but with titles like tomb raider and other pointless sequals that are just churned out year after year just to make money....THAT is what is needed to be stopped...sequals that didn't even need to continue because the last part finished the story as it was...

DNF on the other hand is kind of different, because it's not realy continuing a story i guess, it's more like another Duke adventure http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif which is why i don't mind the countless numbers of sonic games and mario games because it's just another adventure rather than 'oh let's continue the story just because the last part sold well'

[Kronx]

I see two things happening. One one hand development is so expensive that it's hard to choose an unproven product over a sequel. Dog sequels all you want, but even a game that originally performed meekly can still get decent revenue with a sequel.

It makes sense moneywise. I want new, innovative games as well, but if I were putting MY money on the line, I'd be looking for sequels as well.

But, I also see something else interesting happening. The independent or alternative games are getting better tech as well. As it trickles down, we can still get new ideas in the form of MODs and freeware.

Things like MODs are vital to the future of video games. It's kind of like public R&D for gaming companies. Consider Star Wars: Battlefront. I wonder how closely they watched the Galactic Conquest (Star Wars) MOD for BF:1942 while developing their title. In a way, it's mirrored the movie industry. The big names can watch the lower budget titles to get ideas.

I think the solution to sequel problems is simple... just ask me first. I'll be glad to tell any game developer whether or not they should make a sequel for a small fee.

[Dr. Kill]

Yeah, a lot of series are dragged on forever (Mega Man, Tomb Raider, Grand Theft Auto) and lose their edge. I like a lot of sequels, though.

Sequels that were better than the original:

Midnight Club 3
Blitz the League
Madden 94
GTA 3
Doom 3
Duke 3D
Road Rash 3
Sonic 2 and 3
Tony Hawk's Underground

On the other hand, sequels/remakes that fell flat on their face, or just weren't as good:

Narc
Tony Hawk's Underground 2
Last 4 Tomb Raider games
LA Rush
Need For Speed Underground 1 and 2
Test Drive 5,6 and the self titled 7th
Driv2r and Driv3r I can't decide which was worse
Quake 3 WTF?! No single player?!
Quake 2 Fun, but just not Quake

[ZuljinRaynor]

Dr. Kill said:
Quake 2 Fun, but just not Quake


Am I the only one who thinks Quake 1 was complete crap compared to Quake 2?

[Kronx]

I remember liking the beginning of Quake 2. It had a nice atmosphere for the time. I stopped playing it though. Through some problem my saves got deleted, and I didn't want to replay it.

I remember being more into Quake, but it's hard to tell if it was better. It was first. I definitely liked the setting of Quake better.

[Dr. Kill]

I liked Quake cause it was dark and moody. When I first played Quake 2 (I bought Q2 and 3 expansions for $20 when I was actually looking for the first), I was like "Damn, this is a LOT different". I still liked it, but it didn't have the atmosphere. Where the hell did the zombies, and the bastard with the chain saw go?! I hope they one day do a true sequel to the first Quake.

[avatar_58]

My personal opinion still is that the entire game industry needs to shut down all existing IPs and start over as if none of them existed. That would force everyone to be creative, and those who can't would be forced to close shop.

[Mountain Man]

Sequels in and of themselves are not bad. It's only when developers don't use a sequel as an opportunity to do something new that it becomes a problem.

[gungriffon geona]

avatar_58 said:
My personal opinion still is that the entire game industry needs to shut down all existing IPs and start over as if none of them existed. That would force everyone to be creative, and those who can't would be forced to close shop.



That is literally asking for a second game market crash. not only would it destroy the industry, but it would leave a gap in the economy a mile wide. It's honestly not an option.

That said, there are many original titles. Some are very good, but never get noticed enough to warrant a sequel. Case and Point: Metal Arms. Damn good game that anyone who played it loved it, but it came out under the radar and had decent sales, but not blockbuster sales that warrant a sequel. The story was left on a cliff-hanger as to what Exavolt's next plan was. It's one of the few games that really deserve a sequel, but never got it.
Though from what I hear, Microsoft really wants Glitch as the XBox mascot, and it's possible that Microsoft might buy the rights from Vivendi in order to get the sequel. (though this news seems to be about a year old.)

[Jokke_r]

i'm ok for sequels and expansions if they expand on the original, new stuff and proper continueation of the story.

Sims expansions suck. And most WW2 shooter expansions bring nothing new to the game/series.

[Drazula]

Most of you guys are missing my point. A sequel is okay just as long as it is not right on the heels of the original or if the developer created other games in between.

I think this enhances the sequel because it gives the developer a much more open view. When working on a game and then a sequel right away, a developer can get "tunnel vision".

For example, if Monolith had to work on a sequel, I would prefer they work on a NOLF 3 than a FEAR 2. Taking what they learned from FEAR and applying it to the NOLF gameworld should change it significantly. But a FEAR 2 would be a FEAR too.

If anyone watched John Carmack's Quakecon sermon, he spoke of how AAA developers have to play it safe, because there are millions of dollars at stake. It comes back to the customer. If they are going to buy sequels, developers are going to make them. We need to stop! We need to support the new, the unusual, the creative.

As for DNF, it is the sequel to... DNF! DNF Quake, DNF Unreal, DNF UT, DNF 2002! C'mon GB, come up with something new.... sheesh! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

j/k


Mountain Man said:
Sequels in and of themselves are not bad. It's only when developers don't use a sequel as an opportunity to do something new that it becomes a problem.


Brace yourselves folks.... I agree 100%! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif Now I feel ill.

[dark_angel]

When working on a game and then a sequel right away, a developer can get "tunnel vision".




That's correct, developers tend to play it safe by developing sequels based on fresh/continous ideas.

Desiging a new IP and developing it to be an AAA title would take a lot of time and work but creating sequels would be much more easier because the base ideas are already there, all they need to do is to create something new wich inherits from the base game and that would diminish innovation tremendously.

[Dr. Kill]

Mountain Man said:
It's only when developers don't use a sequel as an opportunity to do something new that it becomes a problem.



Madden

[Xgthug]

WARNING:
Xgthug is very tired and has had very little sleep when posting this.
As usual, try not to take this post too seriously, and refrain from OMFGZTEHPWNZ0RING1337ing him.


Dr. Kill said:
Yeah, a lot of series are dragged on forever (Mega Man, Tomb Raider, Grand Theft Auto) and lose their edge. I like a lot of sequels, though.

Sequels that were better than the original:

Midnight Club 3
Blitz the League
Madden 94
GTA 3
Doom 3
Duke 3D
Road Rash 3
Sonic 2 and 3
Tony Hawk's Underground

On the other hand, sequels/remakes that fell flat on their face, or just weren't as good:

Narc
Tony Hawk's Underground 2
Last 4 Tomb Raider games
LA Rush
Need For Speed Underground 1 and 2
Test Drive 5,6 and the self titled 7th
Driv2r and Driv3r I can't decide which was worse
Quake 3 WTF?! No single player?!
Quake 2 Fun, but just not Quake



I agree, Thug2 could have been much better.
Hell, THAW could have been much better.
THUG1 is still my favorite. (create a park, the ability to drive cars...)
If THUG1 had spraypaint and all the new controls and trick features that THAW has, it'd be unbeatable.
Mortal Kombat: Deception had the same problem.
Although it had an assload of new features, the game seemed less polished and had a less solid atmosphere than Deadly Alliance. Not to mention they removed some cool features. I really hated Konquest mode.
It was fun, but didn't belong in Deception.
They could have fit so much more stuff in the game.
Not to mention Shaolin Monks came out hardly a year after, and it's pretty much the same only better fighting system.
I was dissapointed to see Test your Might and Sight removed, also.
Quake III had singleplayer,
it just didn't have a story.
Quake III: Arena happens to be my favorite Quake game
and is quite underrated in my opinion.

[Dan the Man]

When a game is unique, it should definitely have sequels to update the graphics and make those slight improvements that can't be fixed in a patch.

Anyone who adores the premise/story/characters/gameplay of a particular game will love the idea of there being a sequel on the horizon - I was gagging to play Half-Life 2, SWAT4 and Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, and none of them seem to have disappointed their fans.

[Dr. Kill]

I hope for a Manhunt sequel.

[Denz]

MGS Series Rocks.

[avatar_58]

Dan the Man said:
I was gagging to play Half-Life 2, SWAT4 and Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, and none of them seem to have disappointed their fans.



But isn't that your opinion? Half-life 2 was amazing but it lost much of what I loved about Half-life.

Considering SWAT came from Police Quest, I don't know HOW you can say it hasn't dissapointed fans of the adventure games like myself, but then anyone who has played SWAT1 already abandoned the series for dead. Although, I will admit SWAT4 itself is a good game....but it has dick to do with the Police Quest name (and yet that "4" is still on the end....)

GTA:SA, I have no words for because it IS better than its previous entries. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[YicklePigeon]

Draz, did you miss my entry on the last page of this thread (http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1005283&page=0&fpart=4&vc=1)? Or did that entry spur the creation of this topic?

I'm curious http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards,

Yickle.

[Travis]

GTAIII is still probably my favourite GTA game.
I haven't played Liberty City Stories yet, though.
Or GTA Advance [but I heard that wasn't very good].
San Andreas is too gangsterish for my liking, I prefer Liberty City and the mafia. And I don't really like the 80s.

[Roger]

John said:
Youre right. Quake IV and Doom III must go! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Don't forget HL2. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif

[Mr. Spock]

Meh I happen to like sequels, I just think people are bitchy at times. They don't want the same old stuff but they don't want a game to not live up to its previous version. I think DNF will dissapoint alot of people regardless of whether its fun or not.

When I look at a game, regardless whether its a sequel or not, I try not to compare it to other games, I take games as they are. I happen to be in the few that think doom3, hl2,far cry, and quake 4 all have their own reasons to be good games I don't care if one has one thing but another doesn't.

If I have fun playing them, then there good games in my book.

[Drazula]

YicklePigeon said:
Draz, did you miss my entry on the last page of this thread (http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1005283&page=0&fpart=4&vc=1)? Or did that entry spur the creation of this topic?

I'm curious http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards,

Yickle.


Warren Spector always steals my ideas!! Make him stop! (see the Dead Pool) John Carmack's talk at QuakeCon was the inspiration.

[Phayzon]

Some series just have to die off, Mega Man and Medal of Honor for example (and FF too). They have like 50 games about the same god damn thing and maybe you get a new abilty/weapon/character in the next one. w00t... Yet theres some, like Halo, that deserve a sequal. I only ever played HaloPC and the H2CE mod and I see why H2 exists. Dungeon Siege and MechWarrior have great sequals too.


@1st post

And for games that end in "To be continued..." ? Bash the hell outa DNII and DN3D why dont ya? Awesome sequals


John said:
Youre right. Quake IV and Doom III must go! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



I actually liked Q4, D3 wasnt really worth it, RoE solved a few problems, not anywhere near all. And cmon, q4 was the first actually sequal to any quake game.

[Phayzon]

ZuljinRaynor said:

Dr. Kill said:
Quake 2 Fun, but just not Quake


Am I the only one who thinks Quake 1 was complete crap compared to Quake 2?



Yes, Q1 pwns Q2.

[ZuljinRaynor]

Phayzon said:

ZuljinRaynor said:

Dr. Kill said:
Quake 2 Fun, but just not Quake


Am I the only one who thinks Quake 1 was complete crap compared to Quake 2?



Yes, Q1 pwns Q2.


I could never get into Quake 1. Quake 2 just somehow did it. Maybe cause it was native OpenGL. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Now I wanna play Quake 2.

[Damien_Azreal]

I agree completely... Quake sucked big time. I had to push myself to finish it the first time.

And I can't seem to make myself play it again. And after four episodes of that shit... they insult the player with such a pathetic end boss. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Quake 2 is the best of the series. And next to Doom 3 (IMHO) it's the best game iD made since Doom.

Hell, I hate Unreal with a passion... and I would replay it before I would touch Quake. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[big fat lazy]

No way I'm saying "No" to Half-Life 2, Max Payne 2, Civ 4, AOE 2, AOE 3, Diablo 2, Hitman 2, Jedi Knight 2, Morrowind, RCT3, NOLF2, GTA3, just to name a few on the PC that I can think of at the top and half-way to the bottom of my head.
Oh, and DX Invisible War. ha, just kidding.

[consonant]

Phayzon said:
Some series just have to die off, Mega Man and Medal of Honor for example (and FF too). They have like 50 games about the same god damn thing and maybe you get a new abilty/weapon/character in the next one. w00t...

With megaman and FF it might be that they're just trying to cash in on younger generations that haven't played the 49 other games because they were still a fetus. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif Is that really so bad? It's not like those companies aren't developing other games as well, right?

[Travis]

Damien_Azreal said:
I agree completely... Quake sucked big time. I had to push myself to finish it the first time.

And I can't seem to make myself play it again. And after four episodes of that shit... they insult the player with such a pathetic end boss. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Quake 2 is the best of the series. And next to Doom 3 (IMHO) it's the best game iD made since Doom.

Hell, I hate Unreal with a passion... and I would replay it before I would touch Quake. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



I hate Unreal 1 as well. I like Unreal 2 a lot more, no matter how many people don't.
I can't understand why people like it when it's just..bad.

[Cerberus_e]

Damien_Azreal said:
I agree completely... Quake sucked big time. I had to push myself to finish it the first time.

And I can't seem to make myself play it again. And after four episodes of that shit... they insult the player with such a pathetic end boss. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Quake 2 is the best of the series. And next to Doom 3 (IMHO) it's the best game iD made since Doom.

Hell, I hate Unreal with a passion... and I would replay it before I would touch Quake. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



I liked quake and soon I'm going to play both expansions http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif
and what do you mean they insulted the player with such end boss? it's harder than blood's end boss http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Drazula]

Cerberus_e said:
I liked quake and soon I'm going to play both expansions http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif


With the exception of ROE, the two Quake expansions are still my favorite expansions.

As for Quake, I liked multiplayer much better. Not that the single palyer was bad, but I had so much fun with MP. I guess because Quake was the first game I played deathmatch and co-op with my family (I tell the story about my son and the dragon every chance I get!). Scourge of Armagon still has the best deathmatch level ever created (and continually duplicated), Edge of Oblivion.

Finally, GLQuake confirmed to me that I was a FPS purist and a hardcore graphics whore! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Gatinater]

I've been saying no to sequels since I can remember. We say no, but they hear yes.

Sequels seem to work very well for adventure games, but that's it.

[Mountain Man]

ZuljinRaynor said:
I could never get into Quake 1. Quake 2 just somehow did it. Maybe cause it was native OpenGL. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Now I wanna play Quake 2.


I played Quake 2 after I had already played Duke Nukem 3D and Half-Life, so of course I wasn't very impressed with it.

[Phayzon]

consonant said:

Phayzon said:
Some series just have to die off, Mega Man and Medal of Honor for example (and FF too). They have like 50 games about the same god damn thing and maybe you get a new abilty/weapon/character in the next one. w00t...

With megaman and FF it might be that they're just trying to cash in on younger generations that haven't played the 49 other games because they were still a fetus. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif Is that really so bad? It's not like those companies aren't developing other games as well, right?



It is that bad. If they just went in order like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. it'd be ok. But now theres shit like MegaMan X, MegaMan Zero, FF Christal Chronicles, FF X (i think), and even a god damn FF 10 2. 10 2? wtf is 10 2? not 11, not 102, the sequal to FF10 isnt FF11....

[Dr. Kill]

Mountain Man said:
I played Quake 2 after I had already played Duke Nukem 3D and Half-Life, so of course I wasn't very impressed with it.



that's why I never liked Doom. I played Duke 3D first, and in comparison, Doom was really, really, really bland. There are still a lot of games that don't have interactivity like Duke or Blood had.

[Damien_Azreal]

Cerberus_e said:

Damien_Azreal said:
I agree completely... Quake sucked big time. I had to push myself to finish it the first time.

And I can't seem to make myself play it again. And after four episodes of that shit... they insult the player with such a pathetic end boss. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Quake 2 is the best of the series. And next to Doom 3 (IMHO) it's the best game iD made since Doom.

Hell, I hate Unreal with a passion... and I would replay it before I would touch Quake. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



I liked quake and soon I'm going to play both expansions http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif
and what do you mean they insulted the player with such end boss? it's harder than blood's end boss http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



<table><tr><th><font size="-1">Spoiler below:</font></th></tr><tr><td class="spoiler"> You play through four episodes.... fighting tons of baddies.
You reach the last level and the level is full of the toughest monsters in the game... and to beat "Quake" itself all you have to do is hit the teleporter when it enters it.
You win. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif I woudl've rather fought the damn thing instead of just walk into a teleporter at the right time.

IMO it was a letdown. </td></tr></table>

[Cerberus_e]

<table><tr><th><font size="-1">Spoiler below:</font></th></tr><tr><td class="spoiler">
That's what I liked.
quake innovated! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif it breaked away from the "big bad guy with tons of rockets" cliché.
also, that isn't easy, it took me a while to figure out that I had to skip the bad guys (I figured it out when they kept spawning and I was out of ammo).
then it took me a while to realize that floating star had to be in shub-niggurath.
I think the fight took me around 30 minutes http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Blood's end boss took me 5 seconds http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I don't even know how he attacks.
</td></tr></table>

[Phayzon]

<table><tr><th><font size="-1">Spoiler below:</font></th></tr><tr><td class="spoiler"> That was Shub Niggurath. Not Quake, seeing as Quake is mentioned in SoA and DoE. Which in those you scorge Armagon and kill some flying dragon thing. Shows what you know. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dopefish.gif </td></tr></table>


EDIT

<table><tr><th><font size="-1">Spoiler below:</font></th></tr><tr><td class="spoiler"> What would calll Duke3D Atomic and Ultimate Doom, if Quake is just going through 4 eps fighting a sshitload of baddies ? </td></tr></table>

[Damien_Azreal]

Phayzon... I don't know much about Quake and it's expansions... because I hate Quake.

So I never kept up on the story (or lack of story) there was. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Drazula]

How can you not love the Shub? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Damien_Azreal]

Drazula said:
How can you not love the Shub? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



Pretty dman easy. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Quake's best levels were the first levels of each episode.
I loved those levels, fighting the gaurds and shit... before the castles.