DNF-level of controversy

[Duke Rocks]

I'm sure that this topic comes up from time to time; this is a question mostly aimed at 3DR, but I'd like to hear other opinions, too.


Will DNF be at least somewhat known for being controversial? Games like Grand Theft Auto are almost more notorious for their "objectionable" content than for being amazing games.


There are, however plently of big M-rated shooters that simply cause hardly any controversy, and seem to slip under the "bad games" radar. Examples: Unreal games and Red Faction

Then there are the games that gets some parents worried and makes the top ten lists of games that should not be sold to kids, etc..... Games like half life 2, doom 3, and possibly duke 3d would fit into this catergory.


THEN there are the games that can make even hardcore gamers squeamish and their raciness practically outweighs their redeeming gameplay value. As I mentioned before, one of these games is Grand Theft Auto-others include Postal 2 and Soldier of Fortune. These games push the boudaries of the M rating and sometimes even go beyond it (see: San Andreas).



My basic question is where will DNF fit into the picture? It will almost certainly be M rated, but this covers a broad catergory (as I explained above).


Will DNF be a great game that doesn't shock people content-wise(in terms of inappropriacy)?

Or will DNF be imfamous for "corrupting the minds of our youth."


I'd really like some input on this, because knowing so little about the game, we really have no clue what the "shock" value will be. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Maybe 3DR can answer this without giving too much (or anything) away.

[Kristian Joensen]

Here is what Scott had to say about controversy in his excellent blog entry "Max Payne: The Making of a Franchise":

"o Controversy. Max Payne had a little, though it didn't get as much press as we thought it might. Still, controversy that fits the context of the game is good for stirring up news. Duke Nukem, for example, had only one or two levels with strippers (and no nudity), and yet it generated endless controversy when the game was released in 1996. The bottom-line is that if you can build a little controversy into your game, do it."

[Duke Rocks]

So I guess what I'm really asking is, how far will 3DR push the bar?

If they put in the same sort of content that they had in Duke3D it would be viewed upon as nothing, as what shocked people 10 years ago has almost no impact on people today.

[Nessus]

Strippers and gore I think will be the ones, especially if they happen at the same time.

[FordV8]

It seems to me that one of the best ways of getting an action game noticed is to surround it with a little controversy. We know that the strippers will be returning, along with Dukes somewhat racey one-liners, so I think it's safe to say this game will slip into the envelope of the media radar.

[Duke Rocks]

Strippers and gore I think will be the ones, especially if they happen at the same time.




Yeah, I always wondered that myself--will you be able to shoot the limbs off a stripper as you could with an enemy?? And will the stripper be blown into giblets when you shoot her with a rocket launcher?

If 3D Realms is truly striving for realism, I assume that the answer is "yes"......but isn't that just a little sick? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kristian Joensen]

Duke Rocks said:
So I guess what I'm really asking is, how far will 3DR push the bar?

If they put in the same sort of content that they had in Duke3D it would be viewed upon as nothing, as what shocked people 10 years ago has almost no impact on people today.



Think about what you are saying, there is a HUGE difference in graphical detail of games now and back in 1996. DNF will be alot different with regards to graphical detail and simply scale to DN3D.

High poly modeled strippers animated using motion caputure, rendered using a competetive modern renderer are gonna be ALOT more controversial than "simple" sprite based strippers.

Also with the increased focus on stroy and NPC's in modern times, 3DR can actually give the strippers some dialog and names and perhaps some background data on some key important ones.

[Duke Rocks]

Yes, I guess that is what I meant....even if DNF were to be Duke3D in 200(6?) it would be way more graphic than the original, simply because the graphics and processors have evolved so much.


Don't get me wrong....I'm all for going all out and making DNF as hardcore as possible, but do you think that 3DR has considered making this Duke into a tamer game?

......especially in such a sensitive world we live in these days.

Think about it:
In 1996 there was no 9/11 no Columbine-in fact most of the major school shootings that were allegedly related to games had not yet occured.

I know where I stand, but I'm just looking at things from a different point of view.

[Kristian Joensen]

"Don't get me wrong....I'm all for going all out and making DNF as hardcore as possible, but do you think that 3DR has considered making this Duke into a tamer game?"

No, there is no indication of this, on the contrary there recently(as in this year) was a magazine article that said quote George saying that 3DR wants to be as controversial as possible.

[Duke Rocks]

3DR did a magazine this year??

It was for Prey, wasn't it?

[Geo-King]

The game will be in the news for a bit then all the controversy will die down.

Remember history repeats it’s self. We (as gamers) see huge graphical upgrades but non-gamers (parent and Christian groups) will think DooM1 and DNF are the same thing overall.

Parent/Christian groups don’t really care about rating systems or free speech they just like to disrupt the process and don’t want the game to be made at all so we will never make them happy.

However 3DR can make us happy and that’s all that really matters.

[Symok]

Geo-King said:Parent/Christian groups don’t really care about rating systems or free speech they just like to disrupt the process and don’t want the game to be made at all so we will never make them happy.



Yep, I've never undestood how someone can buy a game that is clearly labled "MATURE: 18+. Contains nudity", or whatever, and then complain that it is inapropriate for their 14 year old son. And this that their argument is logical. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif

The simple fact is, parents just don't want to take responsibility for their children anymore. *sigh* I think I'll stop before I drag this too far off topic http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[hell-angel]

Kristian Joensen said:

Duke Rocks said:
So I guess what I'm really asking is, how far will 3DR push the bar?

If they put in the same sort of content that they had in Duke3D it would be viewed upon as nothing, as what shocked people 10 years ago has almost no impact on people today.



Think about what you are saying, there is a HUGE difference in graphical detail of games now and back in 1996. DNF will be alot different with regards to graphical detail and simply scale to DN3D.

High poly modeled strippers animated using motion caputure, rendered using a competetive modern renderer are gonna be ALOT more controversial than "simple" sprite based strippers.




High poly strippers. :drool: http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/love.gif



Also with the increased focus on stroy and NPC's in modern times, 3DR can actually give the strippers some dialog and names and perhaps some background data on some key important ones.




Stripper with a background?? Who cares, the only thing they should do is look hot and dance really sexy/sensual. If I want a stripper with a background I pick them up in a stripclub. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Duke Rocks said:
3DR did a magazine this year??

It was for Prey, wasn't it?



Several actually, but you are correct. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Kristian Joensen]

Yes, indeed ofcourse it was for Prey.

[Kalki]

I think strippers and the perceived sexism/chauvinism of Duke may still be controversial today. We'll see.

[mysteryperfecta]

I think DNF will be safely, calculatingly "controversial". The game will fall in the category of "politically-correct political incorrectness", meaning it will only seek to offend the usual suspects.

Personally, I don't have any respect for Scott and GB's button-pushing philosophy. Seeking to offend for publicity's sake is sophomoric, imo. If a game is controversial because it attempts to broach a difficult, controversial subject, then I can respect that. But to produce content for the purpose of antagonizing other's sense of morality is without merit. In other words, it's about motive. That, and the practice is passe.

I do predict a reference to GTA:SA's Hot Coffee mod, for a little sloppy-seconds controversy.

[Tim. Just Tim.]

in postal2 you could urinate on random unarmed big breasted ladies in the grocery store after which they would beg you to stop and then keel over and vomit at which point you could swing your shovel and whack her head off and watch it bounce around the dairy section of the store, all the while saying 'witty' comments like "yeah, you like that, dont you?"

I really think that the 'controvertial-ness' of games should be defined by what you are [u]supposed</u> to do, or what you are [u]encourged</u> to do, and not just by what you [u]can</u> do.

For eg, Suppose youre playing a game called zubzub on an extremely open ended and flexible engine, where you can do anything from join the army to raise a family to go to work to drive accross the country, to mugging old ladies. Just because you can mug old ladies, doesnt mean the game is controvertial and should be banned. Because suppose there are also consequences, for eg if you mug an old lady, then the cops start searching for you to put you in jail. I dont think such a game would be considered controvertial.

Now suppose there is a different game, called grannyslayer where the only thing you can do is mug old ladies. You get points for each lady you mug, and there are no cops chasing after you. I dont know if such a game would be banned, but its clearly way more controvertial than zubzub. But why? Both games allow granny mugging. Its all in the intention of the game.

I mean, you can mug old ladies in real life. does that mean real life is controvertial and should be banned?

Duke can and should have tons of strippers. Its never a requirement to kill the strippers. Its not like you need to kill a stripper to get the blue key or anything. Nothings stopping you from just giving the strippers money and being on your merry way. Nothings stopping you from appreciating them from afar or avoiding them altogether. They're just there, and the engine is really flexible and allows you a lot of freedom, so it is possible to kill them, but certainly not required or even encouraged. In fact in Duke3d if you killed a stripper then it spawns lizard monsters to get you. So thats a deterrant.

My point is you can get away with a lot more controvertial things in games if you merely make them possible, but not required. Keep it low-key so that only the bored/curious/psycho players will discover it, and use deterrants like spawning enemies to make it seem like you are trying to keep some sort of sanity.

Personally I think that the more violence and controvertial-ness in a game, the better the game. (except postal2, which sucked royally). But if you are worried about getting the kind of bad publicity that hurts sales, then keep in mind what I said. After all, there are no hard and fast guidelines about what is ok and what is not ok in games. Its more of an overall gut feeling.

[The Frederick]

You know, far simple examples would have been Morrowind, which is hugely open-ended, and GTA, where you CAN beat up little old ladies, but are probably meant to do missions. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[hell-angel]

mysteryperfecta said:
I think DNF will be safely, calculatingly "controversial". The game will fall in the category of "politically-correct political incorrectness", meaning it will only seek to offend the usual suspects.

Personally, I don't have any respect for Scott and GB's button-pushing philosophy. Seeking to offend for publicity's sake is sophomoric, imo. If a game is controversial because it attempts to broach a difficult, controversial subject, then I can respect that. But to produce content for the purpose of antagonizing other's sense of morality is without merit. In other words, it's about motive. That, and the practice is passe.

I do predict a reference to GTA:SA's Hot Coffee mod, for a little sloppy-seconds controversy.



I doubt it. Strippers are well known and widely accepted. And although some do-gooders might complain, there are allways people who do that. And it is free publicity as well. As long as they are not nakes or do sexual things, it should be fine with a 17+ rating. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

As for why they do it, they do it becuase strippers are part of Duke, he likes to look at them (don't we all http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) and they belong in the game IMO. If you don't like them, this game is not for you. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Viper Knight]

Tim. Just Tim. said:
Duke can and should have tons of strippers.


Not too much. Keep in mind that Duke Nukem 3D, overall, hardly had any but they were still one of it's main points of controversy. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[hell-angel]

Viper Knight said:

Tim. Just Tim. said:
Duke can and should have tons of strippers.


Not too much. Keep in mind that Duke Nukem 3D, overall, hardly had any but they were still one of it's main points of controversy. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



And not to forget looked good (for that time anyway. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

I would love to see how the strippers look in DNF and if they do stuff (like GB once said. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

[Mr.Sociopath]

DNF-level of controversy


Duke should be gay(gay are very often surrounded by women)..that would raise the controversy bar http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Micki!]

Mr.Sociopath said:

DNF-level of controversy


Duke should be gay(gay are very often surrounded by women)..that would raise the controversy bar http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif



[u] NO!!! </u> http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[pec]

Hehe, freakin' idea, Mr.Sociopath. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Duke will be gay, the strippers will be lesbian and there'll be lots of nipples, pussies, blowjobs, handjobs, f**king, sucking, licking and witty comments like "Suck it down, bitch". Rendered model of Duke's cock included. SEX GAMES MANIA!!! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

In short, make DNF like a porn movie game where the main objective is to f**k as many strippers as possible. Do it like that and you'll get the highest level of controversy you could ever imagined. Piece of cake. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ofcourse not in Germany. If DNF will be like a porn movie then in Germany it will be sold to gamers under the age of 14. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[pec]

btw. this reminds me of SiN and one of Elexis' quotes:

"Is that your gun or are just happy to see me?" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Cerberus_e]

pec said:
btw. this reminds me of SiN and one of Elexis' quotes:

"Is that your gun or are just happy to see me?" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



I don't remember that, when did she say that? you're talking about sinclaire right?

[jaypo90]

Perhaps they'll add the "adult content" lock like before. The one in duke nukem 3d would eliminate excessive gibs, as well as remove the strippers (Hey dad, what's this empty stage for?). Or was it just strippers? Bleh, can't remember.

Someone who doesn't want to see strippers doesn't have to, providing the lock is being brought back. However, this would also eliminate any chance of having strippers be part of an integral storyline. I doubt it's a big deal.

In any case, I wouldn't want the nudity content to be too extreme, if you know what I mean. I just want the game to stand on it's own merits, and if having strippers helps drive up sales, then more power to 3DR. I wouldn't want a great game to be labelled as smut, because then you enter BMX XXX territory, where the nudity is the only selling point. Not a good thing for a game that most of us hope will be GOTY.

[pec]

Cerberus_e said:

pec said:
btw. this reminds me of SiN and one of Elexis' quotes:

"Is that your gun or are just happy to see me?" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



I don't remember that, when did she say that? you're talking about sinclaire right?



Yes. I don't know where she said that, but if you extract all the sound files you will find it.
As far as I remember this was one of Elexis Sinclair's taunts used for multiplayer, but I'm not completely sure.

Perhaps it's an easter egg. Who knows.

[Nihilanth]

jaypo90 said:
[...]

Someone who doesn't want to see strippers doesn't have to, providing the lock is being brought back. However, this would also eliminate any chance of having strippers be part of an integral storyline. I doubt it's a big deal.

In any case, I wouldn't want the nudity content to be too extreme, if you know what I mean. I just want the game to stand on it's own merits, and if having strippers helps drive up sales, then more power to 3DR. I wouldn't want a great game to be labelled as smut, because then you enter BMX XXX territory, where the nudity is the only selling point. Not a good thing for a game that most of us hope will be GOTY.



Strippers were very important in DN3D. You could have blast'em by accident (when in "parental lock" mode) and spawn unwanted aliens in.

However I agree, than XXX content should be kept in reasonable amounts. It was always like a symbol of DN3D so it should be in DNF, but not too much of it. Just enough to be fun (and funny - aliens kidnapping babes-only? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif) as in DN3D.

[Cerberus_e]

pec said:

Cerberus_e said:

pec said:
btw. this reminds me of SiN and one of Elexis' quotes:

"Is that your gun or are just happy to see me?" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



I don't remember that, when did she say that? you're talking about sinclaire right?



Yes. I don't know where she said that, but if you extract all the sound files you will find it.
As far as I remember this was one of Elexis Sinclair's taunts used for multiplayer, but I'm not completely sure.

Perhaps it's an easter egg. Who knows.



I don't think it's in the singleplayer campaign.
or it's in Wages of Sin (which I haven't finished yet)

[pec]

Cerberus_e said:
I don't think it's in the singleplayer campaign.
or it's in Wages of Sin (which I haven't finished yet)



Wherever it is used, one thing is for sure: the sound (wav-format) is packed inside SiN's original game packages.

I know it, because years ago I extracted and played it. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pec]

Cerberus, here's Elexis Sinclair's quote attached (low quality wav-format). Taken from original SiN.

Just to back up what I said.

[Cerberus_e]

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MeatWagon]

I second the Duke being Gay idea. That would generate a lot of controversy, especially amongst all of you hormonal fan boys who are dying to have all this stripper action in the game. It ought to be Male strippers!!
Anyway, duke being gay makes sense to me. He comes across like he's overdoing the whole straight act thing.
Maybe Duke forever will win a GLAD award!! http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Seraph]

Thats scary as hell.

Heheh... He's *supposed* to be the epitome of general badness and has an adonic side effect on women which I'm sure Duke as a character never bitches about. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

He's meant to be larger than life macho. I don't forsee Duke coming out of the closet. Hehe... Thats a pretty wild idea. We've discussed some of this topic in a previous post about the female side of things.

Anyway, as far as Duke's controversial factor I'm more than convinced that it will be coming in a decent helping or two, but I find it difficult to believe that the envelope can be pushed much more than it already has save full frontals and such. Hot Coffee is a hard act to follow even if it was an accident.

(EDIT: Accident in that the content was never really meant to be displayed.)

[Destroyer]

it better be, otherwise all this waiting will have been in vain. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[DudeMiester]

They have stated many times that DNF will NOT be a porn game, just a lot of macho humour.

[Nihilanth]

And that's what we (all, I suppose) expect it to be.

[Zaarin]

And everybody sings "Macho, macho, macho man!"
http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Micki!]

Zaarin said:
And everybody sings "Macho, macho, macho man!"
http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



"YMCA" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/redface.gif http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hhg.gif

[Huckleberry]

I second the Duke being Gay idea. That would generate a lot of controversy, especially amongst all of you hormonal fan boys who are dying to have all this stripper action in the game. It ought to be Male strippers!!
Anyway, duke being gay makes sense to me. He comes across like he's overdoing the whole straight act thing.
Maybe Duke forever will win a GLAD award!!



I am sick of the whole gay thing already. Who gives a crap. You don't see straight people constantly making everyone aware of their sexuality. I think people who feel the need to do this kind of thing or feel the need to make everything gay around them are just looking for approval or confirmation that they are normal. If you are gay great, we accept you, but fankly, it's nobody's business but yours if you are gay, and why would anyone ever need to know that unless you were planning to sleep with them.

I ceratainly don't think "The Guy Who Saves Our Chicks" should be gay or even implied gay without there being some serious hell to pay.

Batman doesn't need nipples, and Duke ain't gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

LOL.

[Micki!]

Huckleberry said:

I second the Duke being Gay idea. That would generate a lot of controversy, especially amongst all of you hormonal fan boys who are dying to have all this stripper action in the game. It ought to be Male strippers!!
Anyway, duke being gay makes sense to me. He comes across like he's overdoing the whole straight act thing.
Maybe Duke forever will win a GLAD award!!



I am sick of the whole gay thing already. Who gives a crap. You don't see straight people constantly making everyone aware of their sexuality. I think people who feel the need to do this kind of thing or feel the need to make everything gay around them are just looking for approval or confirmation that they are normal. If you are gay great, we accept you, but fankly, it's nobody's business but yours if you are gay, and why would anyone ever need to know that unless you were planning to sleep with them.

I ceratainly don't think "The Guy Who Saves Our Chicks" should be gay or even implied gay without there being some serious hell to pay.

Batman doesn't need nipples, and Duke ain't gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

LOL.



I believe all the "gh3y" talk was a joke..! I wouldn't EVER want a Duke game to be like that... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mryuck.gif

[Mr.Sociopath]

Micki! said:

I believe all the "gh3y" talk was a joke..!


was it? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif