Raising the bar...

[Huckleberry]

It is my hope that DNF will set the bar up a few rungs. Although I enjoy tactical shooters, I don't think we need 8000 of them!

Where is the sloppy gore? Where is the campy humor? Is that it... my guy balances a knife on his finger or wipes the blade? When I shoot someone a puff of red smoke comes out? Where are the sweet idle ani's? Where are the cool one-liners and macho taunts? For crying out loud... WHERE's THE BLOOD!?

While I'm at it... These guys spend years developing a game and what does it do? Nothing. Absolutly nothing. Oh you can shoot realistically modeled and textured weapons, but don't expect them to throw even a meager water fountain, that would be too much to ask. Yeah, we have vehicles but uh... the tires are made of steel or something so don't try shooting them out. Physics? Uh... yeah we have physics. See your player model unrealistically flies through the air, limbs flapping in any old direction. Cool huh? Well can I shoot the locks off of doors? No. Well can I shoot the glass out of windows? No. How about swimming in all this beautiful water? Nope, uh-uh. What the hell? You might as well be making donuts then, cause this ain't no video game jack!

Please 3DR/Duke, please put the fun back in video games.

[JayBiggS]

Agreed. All of the things you mentioned I would have thought would be standard by now.

[KeoC4]

I think 3D realms knows what they're doing and I expect that you'll have a lot more of the fun factor in DNF than most games.

Looking back at the E3 videos from when I was young, it appeared that DNF had a lot of great features which I'd never really seen before, or since come to think of it.

As long as they keep in the Donkey and the strippers I'll be happy.

What annoys me the most in modern games is the fact that they spend all their time perfecting a few major features, only to leave the rest of the game packed up the ying yang with bugs.

Also as you pointed out, you find out that their major selling point was realistic physics when it doesn’t even cover things like car tyres!

[Assault]

Games, like every other popular products, has shown us many useless games and only a few seem to really push things forward.
This is not only true to shooters, but every other genre as well. It's sad, but its the same with movies, TV shows and heck, gadgets, etc.

As long as there is a mass production, most things wont bring anything new and many will even be useless junk. However, once in a while you will get the chance to a true masterpiece, we are all crossing fingers for 3drealms.

There is a nice article about innovation in games at Gamespot, it's a good read, you should check it out:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6141519.html

[Cerberus_e]

Huckleberry, I disagree.

First and all, games aren't a simulation of life, shooting off locks would cause the player being able to skip whole parts of levels etc...

Second, games aren't all about shooting stuff, if that was true I'd stop being a gamer. The fun is trying to survive. If the fun was blowing shit up then everyone would play in god mode.
But guess what, almost everyone thinks god mode is boring.
Also, blood doesn't make the game. from the brilliant sands of time style, prince of persia stepped over to the unstylish warrior within style, and the sand was substituted by gore (and the mixture of arabic songs and persian rock was substituted by hardrock). Very unfortunate because it kills the atmosphere. (The Two Thrones restored the atmosphere of Prince of Persia, fortunately)

Third, you said we have that cool looking water but we can't swim in it...
Well, what games have you been playing? I've been playing Far Cry, Painkiller, Half-Life 2, F.E.A.R., and all of them have cool looking water and we can swim in it!

Fourth, what would the point be in being able to shoot the tires of your vehicles when it can cause a dead end in games (imagine having to do a jump with a vehicle you just destroyed its tires of! that's why you can't destroy your buggy in Half-Life 2). You can destroy your vehicle in Far Cry though, but in that game vehicles aren't necessary.
Neither method (Half-Life 2 or Far Cry) is good or bad because both have advantages and disadvantages.

[BabyFace]

OK, but still - a lamp should really be destroyed by a shot from a shotgun. If I shoot myself into darkness - my fault! Reload from savegame and try again. But having light bulbs that can withstand a missile launcher... well, that just doesn't feel right. Any kind of furniture and other objects that are not really relevant for proceeding in the game should be destructible.

As was largely the case with D3D already.

Vehicles should at least show some visible damage if shot at or crashed into a wall, even if they can't be destroyed completely for gameplay reasons.

I reckon that the coming console ego shooter "Black" from Criterion will set some good examples of destructible environments. http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Cerberus_e]

yes, I agree that too few games let the lamps be destroyed.
and visible damage on cars is also OK as long as it doesn't effect the gameplay (even if it gave you some disadvantages like slower speed then it'll still going to be frustrating no matter how more realistic it is)

[SyntaxN]

Cerberus_e said:
yes, I agree that too few games let the lamps be destroyed.



Yeah, and it should affect the AI as well.

[BabyFace]

That's what I'm talking about...

http://ve3dboards.ign.com/microsoft_xbox/b10525/22174989/p1/

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nihilanth]

Black is one of those few games for consoles I'd cry to have on PC. The first console game that brought my attention to itself.

[Assault]

Nihilanth said:
Black is one of those few games for consoles I'd cry to have on PC. The first console game that brought my attention to itself.



Wait until it gets reviews, it just might be another generic shooter... with effects.

[Huckleberry]

So contrary to the rest of the world Cerb, you would call Resident Evil 4 a poor game or a deadended game because you can kick open doors and shoot locks off?

What does any of what I mentioned have to do with God mode? You lost me.

Who's talking about music? I usually want to play my own anyway.

Water? uh well, lets just throw COD and BF2 out there. Perhaps you've heard of them? It's swimming underwater I wish to see actually, perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

Well shooting the tires off the vehicles was in reference to multiplayer really, as were most of my comments. I think we can all imagine the fun of being able to shoot the tires off of an escaping vehicle and sending it into a roll, or out of control, which results in flames, twisted metal, and ultimately death or a narrowly escaped one.

I think the problem here is that you are a single player type and I prefer to play multiplayer. Of course I play and beat the single player portion of the games usually, but I much prefer multiplayer in the end. Yes I have beaten nearly all of the above mentioned games except F.E.A.R. and many that you didn't mention.

I have been playing games since I was 10 or so which was way back in 1978. Not that that makes me an authority such as yourself, just that I've seen quite a few games in my day.


Hope I was clear this time.

[Cerberus_e]

Huckleberry said:
So contrary to the rest of the world Cerb, you would call Resident Evil 4 a poor game or a deadended game because you can kick open doors and shoot locks off?




I was talking about being able to skip levels by destroying doors you have to find keys of.
And I've never played RE4, but it's far from an FPS


Huckleberry said:
What does any of what I mentioned have to do with God mode? You lost me.




I thought this paragraph:
"Where is the sloppy gore? Where is the campy humor? Is that it... my guy balances a knife on his finger or wipes the blade? When I shoot someone a puff of red smoke comes out? Where are the sweet idle ani's? Where are the cool one-liners and macho taunts? For crying out loud... WHERE's THE BLOOD!?"
indicated that the fun for you in games is running around & blowing shit up.
well, it all doesn't matter now since you weren't talking about singleplayer


Huckleberry said:
Who's talking about music? I usually want to play my own anyway.




I was just saying having a gore atmosphere can ruin the game. I did mention music because that accompanied warrior within's emphasis on gore.


Huckleberry said:
Water? uh well, lets just throw COD and BF2 out there. Perhaps you've heard of them? It's swimming underwater I wish to see actually, perhaps I wasn't clear enough.




I played COD.
and you can dive in far cry's water, HL2's water, and you'll also be able to go underwater in DNF, that's confirmed, so don't worry.


Huckleberry said:
Well shooting the tires off the vehicles was in reference to multiplayer really, as were most of my comments. I think we can all imagine the fun of being able to shoot the tires off of an escaping vehicle and sending it into a roll, or out of control, which results in flames, twisted metal, and ultimately death or a narrowly escaped one.

I think the problem here is that you are a single player type and I prefer to play multiplayer. Of course I play and beat the single player portion of the games usually, but I much prefer multiplayer in the end. Yes I have beaten nearly all of the above mentioned games except F.E.A.R. and many that you didn't mention.




well yes, then most points of ours don't interfere with each other, I was indeed talking about singleplayer

[Tedades]

I liked far cry, you could run/swim or just drive to the other side of the island.
If DNF doesn't feature this, I wouldn't care because it aint far cry.

[jimbob]

Tedades said:
I liked far cry, you could run/swim or just drive to the other side of the island.

but only so far, or invincible attack hellicopters would show up and shoot you http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

as for raising the bar, i hope 3drealms wil continue the trend and raise the interactivity bar, and the damn fun to play game bar http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif \o/

[MegaMustaine]

I haven't seen games that actually "use water" since really the build era. Water was a serious part of these games and I would like to see it return. All the water in the games Cerb has mentioned are poor examples of what water can do for a game. I'm also sick of people acting like objectives are so different from the games of yesteryear. Objective is just another fancy word for find the key. Which you know what I don't mind find the key. The most brilliant levels in the FPS genre were created in the likes of Blood and Duke 3d when we didn't have to worry about stupid "objectives" and instead they used the simple key formula, while providing brilliant backdrops to their action. I really can't wait for DNF as it will bring back the simple action and wit, along with level design that hasn't been seen since 1997. Level design, gore, wit, interactivity, and nonstop action are the hallmarks of Duke, and if DNF doesn't provide these elements I think anyone who is a duke fan will be highly dissapointed. You can all have your fancy new crap with fancy graphics, and I will wait for my badass game that will bring FPS back to what they should be. DNF WID will be well worth the wait.

[Tedades]

jimbob said:

Tedades said:
I liked far cry, you could run/swim or just drive to the other side of the island.

but only so far, or invincible attack hellicopters would show up and shoot you http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

as for raising the bar, i hope 3drealms wil continue the trend and raise the interactivity bar, and the damn fun to play game bar http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif \o/



Lol, thats true.
I once played a Demo with a island that just generated more water if you left the island. It would be pointless to go away, but you wouldnt die.
Far cry just gives a feeling that your free to do anything, Half-Life does that in a different way.

[Huckleberry]

I would also like to see some creative anti-camping mechanism. Like if you are in the water, and you are bleeding, it would be nice if sharks could smell the blood and attack you, or pirahna or something. If you are on land maybe some insects or rats could start nawing on or pestering you into giving away your position. Obviously footprints are a given, as well as bloodtrails.

[Montykoro!]

A good example of "Anty camping" is in the game BF2 ( AKA battle field 2) If you snipe all the time in the same spot the artillery fire wipe your ass in the sky...simply and efective...

[jimbob]

Montykoro! said:
A good example of "Anty camping" is in the game BF2 ( AKA battle field 2) If you snipe all the time in the same spot the artillery fire wipe your ass in the sky...simply and efective...

but attillery is fired by the team leader, so its not an automatic anti camp mechanism.

if the sniper is low priority ( wich he often is ) then he could be camping there for a whole round.

[Montykoro!]

jimbob said:

Montykoro! said:
A good example of "Anty camping" is in the game BF2 ( AKA battle field 2) If you snipe all the time in the same spot the artillery fire wipe your ass in the sky...simply and efective...

but attillery is fired by the team leader, so its not an automatic anti camp mechanism.

if the sniper is low priority ( wich he often is ) then he could be camping there for a whole round.



D'oh... only play BF2 in single player...so the IA of the game is the "team Leader"....

Try it... select a roof top or the crane in varius maps...snipe and 3 or 4 minutes the artillery strike your spot.... in single player... that is a "anty snipe" for me...

[Kristian Joensen]

"I haven't seen games that actually "use water" since really the build era."

George has said that parts of levels in DNF will be underwater.

[Halcyon]

Kristian Joensen said:
George has said that parts of levels in DNF will be underwater.

That would be quite cool. When did he say that?

[roryok]

Kristian Joensen said:
"I haven't seen games that actually "use water" since really the build era."

George has said that parts of levels in DNF will be underwater.



anyone remember that bit in the flooded kitchen in alien resurrection? I always thought that'd make a cool level.

[SyntaxN]

"I haven't seen games that actually "use water" since really the build era."


Far Cry?
But it´s true that there aren´t enough games which use the water as some kind of gameplay element.

[Nihilanth]

SyntaxN said:


"I haven't seen games that actually "use water" since really the build era."


Far Cry?
But it´s true that there aren´t enough games which use the water as some kind of gameplay element.



The point is, in for example DN3D water parts were, like SyntaxN says, gameplay element: flooded offices, secret passages. In FC you can swim but there's nothing really that can suprise you there; you just swim in a sea and that's all (in games it's like swimming in a pool http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif). Of course with the exception of end of FC level (I don't remember it's name) where you meet up with Val. There were flooded corridors full of mutants but even there you weren't swimming, there was just a lot of water. I think that interesting underwater parts appeared in DX [Deus Ex] in Hong Kong. There was flooded undergroung road.

[Cerberus_e]

people just want being forced to dive, like in Duke3D.
Well, far cry has that, or how did you enter the carrier, Juckleberry/Nihilanth? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
at the start of the level, you HAVE to dive.

Also, there is a level with lots of parts where you HAVE to dive, I think it's one of the levels after steam and regulator... control or something? or was it called archives?
anyway it's the level just before or after rebellion http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

you don't haf to dive in the island levels altough it would be cool if you had to enter a lab that way.
Doyle: "Find the lab, rumours say the base entrance is hidden underwater"

[Nihilanth]

Cerberus_e said:
people just want being forced to dive, like in Duke3D.
Well, far cry has that, or how did you enter the carrier, Juckleberry/Nihilanth? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
at the start of the level, you HAVE to dive.



I've missed that part http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif, but it's not a big deal. You dive for a sec and over. But yeah, I think it'll be possible to find few such places in FC. However...:

REMEMBER THE FLOOD ZONE http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dopefish.gif.

And it's true. Remembering those map names from FC is pretty tricky http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif. I can only name few of'em, hehe. Well, maybe most of them, but some are so similiar...

[Cerberus_e]

I edited my post, there is another level, I don't know if it's the same one as the one you talked about but you HAVE to dive I'm 100% sure of.
you're even forced to make a room flood at one point, but there are also other rooms where you have to dive http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Nihilanth]

Cerberus_e said:
I edited my post, there is another level, I don't know if it's the same one as the one you talked about but you HAVE to dive I'm 100% sure of.
you're even forced to make a room flood at one point, but there are also other rooms where you have to dive http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



I think it's the same, reffering to flooding the room. Still don't remember the name but it's without doubt the one after Rebellion. The one with invisible mutants, I suppose.

[SyntaxN]

In Far Cry water often gets used for alternative paths to reach a point http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
But Deus Ex also made a good use of it, there are also alternative ways in DX which go through water.
I hope the water in DNF looks awesome even when you´re in it, with realistic refraction effects and bubbles like in Metal Gear Solid 2!

[Cerberus_e]

Nihilanth said:

Cerberus_e said:
I edited my post, there is another level, I don't know if it's the same one as the one you talked about but you HAVE to dive I'm 100% sure of.
you're even forced to make a room flood at one point, but there are also other rooms where you have to dive http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



I think it's the same, reffering to flooding the room. Still don't remember the name but it's without doubt the one after Rebellion. The one with invisible mutants, I suppose.



the one after rebellion is "archive" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Dukefan24]

There are like 100,0000,00000 shooters in the world already and still the Duke games always take a glimp out of them. That's not because of the blood but just because it is like an 'arcade shooter' and the character is not 'just a human'. I personally like Duke especially because of the character coolness. Also many people like his games because it's based on some classic work. But don't forgot that any games has some things that could be better. There isn't any game that's 100% good, and I think there don't ever will be one though.

[Nihilanth]

Cerberus_e said:

Nihilanth said:

Cerberus_e said:
I edited my post, there is another level, I don't know if it's the same one as the one you talked about but you HAVE to dive I'm 100% sure of.
you're even forced to make a room flood at one point, but there are also other rooms where you have to dive http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



I think it's the same, reffering to flooding the room. Still don't remember the name but it's without doubt the one after Rebellion. The one with invisible mutants, I suppose.



the one after rebellion is "archive" http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Ahh, I've finally checked this out. Level with room-flooding is Cooler and it's after Archive. Just to make it clear http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Dukefan24, yes, you're right about arcade-style of DN3D gameplay. And I must say that I also would like to see DNF more fun than realistic. I like realism in games (and I mean here realism like "one shot and you're dead" aka Flashpoint) but in DNF I think Duke should be simply national-super-hero. He just comes and kick some alien asses without even looking and that's cool http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. No "wrong man in a wrong place saving the day" but "Right man in a right place with a freaking right gun in his hands". (and while alien races are no challange for Duke he have a lot of time to do many other things: Interactivity) http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Cerberus_e]

I want things to make sense, but I don't like realism.
I mean, I want grenades to have realistic physics, and the story explained well for it to make sense.
But that doesn't mean I want realism, like I hate the exaggerated "screen shakeing" in Call of duty 2 when yu shoot.
And exaggerated bullet spreads is not fun either.

[Nihilanth]

Cerberus_e said:
I want things to make sense, but I don't like realism.
I mean, I want grenades to have realistic physics, and the story explained well for it to make sense.
But that doesn't mean I want realism, like I hate the exaggerated "screen shakeing" in Call of duty 2 when yu shoot.
And exaggerated bullet spreads is not fun either.



Well, that's the difference. Realistic games are offering challange (not to mention FC on the highest difficulty http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif), but they're normally not fun in a way kinda-arcade titles are. Everyone wants games to be realistic (physics, interavitivity) but not everybody wants games to be realistic (screen-shaking, real-life damages)... how to easily differ those two "realisms"? http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Cerberus_e]

If it limits your controls (spreading your bullets too much or making your screen bop while walking so it's like you're bunnyhopping) then it's not fun http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SyntaxN]

DNF will be a mixture of arcade and realism...and that´s good http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Realism only is ok for game which don´t want anything but simulate something, just like Operation Flashpoint!

[Mr.Sociopath]

SyntaxN said:
Operation Flashpoint!


operation flashpoint's the best http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Nihilanth]

Mr.Sociopath said:

SyntaxN said:
Operation Flashpoint!


operation flashpoint's the best http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif



But requires sooo much patience...

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif or http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
For me it's in the middle but more http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dukefan24]

Nihilanth, I agree with you too. All Duke games that where released wheren't the most realistic ones from the time of their release dates. But it was the glimp of the character and the arcade style that made them great. I think this all will happen to the new DNF also. Just not that realistic, but really worth to play for the gameplay.

[Kalki]

Move over "arcade Vs. realism", DNF should have "cinematic gameplay".

[Nihilanth]

Kalki said:
Move over "arcade Vs. realism", DNF should have "cinematic gameplay".



Well, talking about arcade gameplay I didn't mean full arcade style. Cinematic gameplay you mentioned is kinda what I was thinking about. I suppose.

[Cerberus_e]

Hey Nihilanth, I was just playing First Encounter Assault and Reconnaissance and water is part of the gameplay too http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
You can dive.
Not saying you have to go in corridors underwater (not yet at least, I'm only 1/4 into the game or even less.) but there will be part where you'll dive automatically when jumping in the water, parts where you have to rise water level, ...

[FireFly]

There's also a part where you do have to swim underwater.

[Cerberus_e]

That's after interval 04 then? I'm looking forward http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dopefish.gif

[FireFly]

Yes, although it's quite brief.

[Nihilanth]

Are you guys talking about fear (first encounter assault recon)? Sadly I don't own it but I've heard lots of good things about it. Unfortunetly my computer sux in it. Maybe I'll check it out later on.

[Cerberus_e]

You could download the demo to see how much your computer sucks at it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Altough performance in the full game is worse than the demo, for me. But it's not a difference big enough that can "make" or "destroy" the game http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Nihilanth]

Accually I've tried the demo... and I'm telling you, my comp sux at it http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Minimal settings are everything I can set it to (mainly in case of my Geforce fx that can't handle new shaders). Most games are running well, but fear is the exception. Well, I'll try it another day.

[Gaut]

With fear you have to have maximum in all the Effects settings or it will take a ways half the fun of the game.
And after i played fear it feels like all other games are outdated http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/doh.gif

[Huckleberry]

Day Dreaming....

I shoot a full container of liquid, which fortunately doesn't explode, but squirts out of the bullet hole and leaks down the side of the can. Then when I walk through it, it causes me to slip and I joke about it. " I've fallen and I can't get up" Meanwhile, some creepy thing is fully taking advantage of the situation by moving in on my position with an evil grin, chuckling, and trucking at a hair-raising pace from the end of the hall. Luckily, I have the ability to shoot or toss pipe-bombs from a seated position. While kicking and scooting backwards across the slippery floor, I hear "Duke, this is no time to be sitting down on the job!" coming from the radio and reply "Talk to my union steward." then shoot the radio. Fzzzzzzt!
(standing up, talking to the busted radio under my breath as I step on it and walk away ejecting the now spent clip from my smoking pistol with one hand and lighting a cigar with the other) "Oh by the way... I'm gonna need a new radio, this ones toast." (tossing the match over my shoulder into the liquid now obviously flammable liquid)


Hope my little vignette was entertaining.

[Huckleberry]

Still more fun thoughts...

I go into a quiet little corner bar, sit down and order a bourbon. I shoot the whiskey and order another and a beer. Just then this leggy redhead comes over and sits next to me at the bar. So I smile... tipping my glasses to get a good look... and she smiles back. I finger up to the barkeep and point to her. She orders... WATER! I reach for my eagle and her stomach explodes as tentacles emerge from the gushing hole in her belly. I shoot the tentacles yelling "calamari anyone?" the tentacles wrap around my waist and legs and I shoot into the belly of what used to be a pretty hot chick finishing her off and thinking to myself: "I knew there was something fishy about that chick, she was way too clingy."