3D Realms makes the list again!

[Joe Siegler]

The last couple of years, 3D Realms has had the "honor" of making the cut on a list of videogames published by the National Institute on Media & the family (http://www.mediafamily.org/index.shtml). Their annual "Video & Computer Games Report Card" lists (in their words) "a snapshot of the interactive gaming industry with a focus on issues related to child welfare". The 2001 report (http://www.mediafamily.org/research/vgrc/2001-2.shtml) has put 3D Realms on the map again - this time around with Max Payne. Here's what they had to say about Max Payne (http://www.mediafamily.org/kidscore/chart.asp?ID=3665):

Due to extreme violence and its portrayal, the ability to cause fear, illegal/harmfull behavior and inappropriate language, as well as some nudity and sexual content, this game is not recommended for children of any age.

As usual, we're grateful for the free publicity, but again as usual, the government can't quite get their facts straight. Nudity? They playing the same game we put out? There isn't any in the game. Anyway, if you'd like to see what else they had to say about other games, you can check out their website (http://www.mediafamily.org/index.shtml), or their 2001 report card (http://www.mediafamily.org/research/vgrc/2001-2.shtml).

[XRay]

I'd like to see their version of Max Payne images/icons/grin.gif

[Guest]

...the ability to cause fear...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Ok, that describes my cat.


...illegal/harmfull behavior...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

There's my friend tristan, last I heard he was injured after riding a bicycle down the aisles in a safeway. The manager chased him out and shortly later he went over a small drop and cut a large part of his neck. He's okay now. Well, he's as okay as he was before.


...and inappropriate language...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Now, this describes my sister.


...as well as some nudity and sexual content...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Okay, um, aside from that I'm living the life of max payne. Still, what are they talking about?

[Steve]

...the ability to cause fear...
...illegal/harmfull behavior...
...and inappropriate language...
...as well as some nudity and sexual content...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Tonight on CNN:
"When Soccer Moms attack!" images/icons/shocked.gif

[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: Steve ]

[Co11]

*Ahem* I don't want you guys to think I'm parting with the government, but they're right on the sexual content and nudity part.. Some of the posters had naked chicks on them... I should know, I spent hours just staring at them.. And wasn't there a cutscene with a reference to oral sex? in the bar? yeah, I played that comic over and over again too... Just to make sure that's what the vague reference could be refered to... Those nekkid posters are in the crappy hotel levels, ya know, the level with the shot gun pointed at the door and shoots at you when you open the door? They're tattered, but oh so ... uh, let's just leave it there.. images/icons/wink.gif

[SkavenRMD]

this game is not recommended for children of any age.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

It says so right on the box, "Mature Audiences". If their report was intended to help those who are too illiterate to read the package, they should have made it in audio format, not as a webpage. Duh.

[The Baskinator]

Regarding the nudity:

Did you know that if you examine the textures of MOST video games, you will find a vast array of pornography scattered all over it?

It makes women look bad, but it was part of the dirty, disgusting environment that Max Payne dealt with. The seedy underground of New York City.

I don't think that they should call it nudity because of a few bare rear ends. Those are shown on network television. Nudity anymore means if you bare everything.

I was actually very happy, because Mona Sax wasn't portrayed as a big breasted, high heeled, gun toting blonde. As if a blonde in heels like that could really wield that weapon anyway images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Anyway,
They were wrong to label the game with that.

[Daedalus]

...sexual content...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Either I've missed something when playing Max Payne hundreds of times or this quote proves that there are people on this planet who have an IQ below 75.

I haven't seen any chicks in Max Payne except Max's dead wife. And I don't think that a dead woman with bloody clothes is very sexual. Ok, I'm not pervert. Maybe some people become horny when they see dead women. images/icons/grin.gif

death-fetishists. images/icons/wink.gif HAHA graemlins/dopefish.gif

[Daedalus]

btw. I have overlooked most of the posters anyway. I dunno what these people who wrote that review think about when playing a shooter, but when I play a shooter I usually concentrate on killing the bad guys. And when I stop playing games then I go online and check some porn sites or play old C64-games like "Sex Games" or "Hollywood Strip Poker".

p.s. and the woman who Max meets in Jack Lupino's Inner Sanctum isn't sexual too, because it was a fully dressed woman in a coat with absolutely no sex-appeal. And the posters are just 64x64 small cartoon textures which never make me horny or s.th. I would rather surf to some porn sites and download some 1024x768 photographies of playmates and celebs.
I don't like to insult anybody, but that reviews sound very "american". This is prudeness like it was in Germany in the 50s after WW2. When there was a movie which showed a naked leg or arm of a woman then it became a big SCANDAL!

I'm just glad that I live in the Germany of 2001 and that the government here is very modern concerning sex and nudity. Unfortunately the german goverment don't tolerate blood and violent scenes in video games and movies like in USA.

I think I compared once USA with Germany. Here it is again:

Germany --> blood, violence and swastikas not tolerated, sex and nudity accepted

USA --> blood, violence and swastikkas accepted, sex and nudity not tolerated

Every nation has its own strange laws. It depends on personality and experience I think. Sometimes I wish that some of that american violence finally comes to the love list of the german government and some of that german sexuality comes to the love list of american people.

Sex and Violence in movies and video games! It must be both tolerated in the minds of people or electronic art never becomes free.

[fractalgp]

*All of our game ratings are based on information provided by our trained Media Raters.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
images/icons/grin.gif

[mysteryperfecta]

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
It says so right on the box, "Mature Audiences". If their report was intended to help those who are too illiterate to read the package, they should have made it in audio format, not as a webpage. Duh.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Maybe this provides a resource for parents to research games in a structured, online environment without having to go to the store and read the back of every box. Is there something wrong with that? No, there isn't. Duh.

Game developers get so frickin' defensive. Grow up.

P.S.- Is there such a thing as being "too" illiterate?

[Daedalus]

Look look look, so the american version of our german BPjS is called "National Institute on Media and the Family" (do they have an abreviation for easier swearing? however, I will call them NIMF which sounds like "nymph", hehe). images/icons/grin.gif

I digged their site and found an article titled Children Who Play Violent Video Games Are More Aggressive (http://www.mediafamily.org/press/20010419-1.shtml). Here's of my statements to their quotes:

The study finds that children who play violent video games:

See the world as a more hostile place.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Children don't have to play video games to figure out that our world is hostile. Just tell them about Bin Laden's terrorists and the WTC tragedy. Life IS violent actually. These NIMF boys just don't want to see the reality.

2) Argue with teachers more frequently.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

What are teachers good for anyway? images/icons/grin.gif

I hope when I have children that they get good and friendly teachers only. But good teachers have became extinct race. I think that everyone here could tell a story about bad teachers.

Are more likely to be involved in physical fights.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Ok, let me explain human psychology:

There are children who come from a good family and are being loved and treated well. And there are children who come from an evil family where they're being raped and beaten and never learn what love is in their life and thus become violent as a logic result. Video games have nothing to do with that.

Again these NIMF people just want to look for a way to justify themselves, like they wanted to have a reason for all the violence and protect all the devilish families and parents who should be put in jail imo for doing the greatest sin humen can ever do: screwing up defenceless children.

You know, in jail there are rude but wise rules between the prisoners. When you are a thief, bank robber and that type of criminal then they treat you good. And even if you're a murderer you can have a chance to spend an unproblematic time in prison. But if you're a children-raper then say goodbye. These type of criminals are being hated by all the other prisoners and the guards too. Children-rapers are being treated like shit in prison. The other prisoners steal their food and brutally beat them why the guards look into the other direction. And don't believe that a guard comes and saves you. When you're a children-raper in prison then you have the value of shit. And if you ask me, I'd say that children-rapers don't deserve anything better than this, especially not if it's a children-raper who screwed up their own children, and no matter if it's a male or female children-raper. Children-raper is children-raper. It's scum. It's no human.

Don't perform as well in school.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

This sounds like their study was done with the lower class of our society only. It's not very reliable imo.

[Gamer56]

That site is a PRIME example of how small pathetic groups of LOOSERS get to sticking their noses in where they don't belong, and are NOT wanted. If they have a problem with a game, then don't play the damn thing, but don't condescend to force your goodie goodie all holier than thou views and theories on everyone else. These morons definitely need to get a life. Most important is what these idiots don't tell the general public. That when they say "89% of the parents agree....." that the number of parents they screened was only 100, not 35 billion or something. So it just sounds all important, but its actually worthless babble as the actual number of whiners is 89 not 28,000,000,000. A HUGE difference.

""All of our game ratings are based on information provided by our trained Media Raters.""

Yeah, "The OTHER MORONS". Trained my butt.... How do you "train" to be a pathetic geek looser??

Good lord now I just have to run right out and buy Casper Goulies.... NOT!!!!!!!

[mysteryperfecta]

I think games can have an effect on children. We can say it doesn't, but WE'RE NOT CHILDREN, and don't remember how impressionable we were.

Kids are obviously affected by the violent shows targeted at them, and now that the incredibly violent anime cartoons are being shown after school, it could get worse. I don't think it's a stretch to say that violent video games also make a negative impact.

Max Payne is not for kids. But what percentage of MP purchasers are under 17? I'd imagine that quite a few are. Since parents aren't paying close enough attention, I don't mind a public study reiterating that this game (and others) are strictly not for children.

[mysteryperfecta]

Originally posted by Gamer56:
That site is a PRIME example of how small pathetic groups of LOOSERS get to sticking their noses in where they don't belong, and are NOT wanted. If they have a problem with a game, then don't play the damn thing, but don't condescend to force your goodie goodie all holier than thou views and theories on everyone else. These morons definitely need to get a life. Most important is what these idiots don't tell the general public. That when they say "89% of the parents agree....." that the number of parents they screened was only 100, not 35 billion or something. So it just sounds all important, but its actually worthless babble as the actual number of whiners is 89 not 28,000,000,000. A HUGE difference.
""All of our game ratings are based on information provided by our trained Media Raters.""
Yeah, "The OTHER MORONS". Trained my butt.... How do you "train" to be a pathetic geek looser??
Good lord now I just have to run right out and buy Casper Goulies.... NOT!!!!!!!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

The above is a prime example of why kids should not play too many video games.

[Guest]

This entire thread is stupid. That is the standard description they give to all m rated games.

[mysteryperfecta]

So, what would you do as a game developer on a relaxed discussion forum when faced with a page like this?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I might balk at the inaccuracy of the nudity statement, but there are "scantily-clad" posters, inferences of prostitution and, uh, fellatio. That inaccuracy warrants a images/icons/rolleyes.gif , but nothing more.

I don't think Max Payne deserves the Language "STOP!" tag, though. "Caution!" at most, since while there aren't exactly any bad words in the game, some of the language and tone of voice in the dialogue is still rather harsh. And some may find Jack Lupino's satanic ramblings offensive. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I think you nearly talked yourself out of your "Caution" argument. Notice, the category is "language", not "profanity". Either way, the reason I think Max Payne received (and deserved) a "Stop" (Hammer Time) for "language" was not due to "bad words" but to the frequency of instances like the ones you mentioned.

Besides, I really don't think a "Caution" in that area would have changed any overall perception of the game. And it's a "Mature" rated game, so who cares if it's deemed inappropriate for those under 17 by this Board?

[The Viper]

kids aren't stupid. Maybe a 4 year old would not know the difference between a video game and real life, but a 15 year old surely does.

I of course can't really tell what kind of an affect current video games have on kids, since I don't have my own and when I was a kid I played with C64. But, if you show me a study that tells that kids who play games become more violent than the ones who don't, I'll show you a study that says the opposite.

As a side note, I'm actually too afraid to play some games more than 30 mins without a pause (avp 2 anyone?). I think that's a damn great thing too. I actually get so much into the games I play that a scary game really scares me. No movie or tv-show has ever done that...

[Crim]

With nudity, I think they were referring to that brothel level which has rooms full of 'semi-nude' posters.
With sexual content, I think they were referring to that part in game where Candy Dawn gives Rico Muerte some...fun untill Max busts the party. (If I'm not mistaken..)

[Co11]

hey Crim.. that sounds familiar.. hmmmmmmmmm....

[The Baskinator]

You know, there were Atari 2600 sex games. There has always been a large amount of it in the gaming industry.
I think that's funny.

[Co11]

Games like Grand Theft Auto and Duke Nukem I think are prime examples why the government thinks they need "nimf". However, any kid who has $50 will go out and buy these games just to be rebels, God knows I did.. images/icons/smile.gif

I think Joe's right on this one, it's GREAT free publicity. Why isn't there a site like this for movies? I've seen a clockwork orange, which has a rape scene. The single most offensive scene I've ever viewed was in "Requiem for a Dream" where there's a .... just watch the movie and you'll know what I mean!

These movies are way more offensive to me than a silly video game that has tv like violence, this game reminds me of the violence in "24".. But that's fox, and fox has that kinda stuff anyway, images/icons/smile.gif ...

Point is, yes there is nudity and a vague reference to oral sex, BUT it's obviously something that everybody else most likely missed. UT had nudity, where's their little "yield" sign?? huh? huh?
http://www.mediafamily.org/kidscore/chart.asp?ID=3183

[SkavenRMD]

Game developers get so frickin' defensive. Grow up.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

So, what would you do as a game developer on a relaxed discussion forum when faced with a page like this?

Please keep in mind that game developers are not politicians. Among our kind, being 'defensive' is not a crime comparable to, say, cannibalistic mass murder. images/icons/smile.gif Somehow this mis-conception has sprung up regardless.

P.S.- Is there such a thing as being "too" illiterate?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Yes, I believe it belongs to the same realm as being "too priggish". images/icons/wink.gif

But you are right, the web page can indeed be a helpful resource to parents who need to find out what games are suitable for their children.

I don't think Max Payne deserves the Language "STOP!" tag, though. "Caution!" at most, since while there aren't exactly any bad words in the game, some of the language and tone of voice in the dialogue is still rather harsh. And some may find Jack Lupino's satanic ramblings offensive.

[Mugg]

Basically, that review is stupid. It's attempting to make it so the parents dont have to actually go to the store and look at the box to find out what it's about. If they want a description of the game, why dont they go to a game site and check out the pictures/review? I mean, as long as they are online reading that prudish review, they may as well see what the game even looks like.

I still think that if 16 year old who has a job and earns money wants to buy a game with HIS money, let him. Dont enforce stupid age limits on games.

I also think that 18 year olds should be able to buy alcohol since they can die in the military in afghanistan or vote a president into office, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt if all my logic bumfuzzles you images/icons/smile.gif

[edit]

You are now working against the entire Italian and Russian mafia <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

When do you work against the Russian mafia exactly? I thought the russian don was your friend images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: Mugg ]

[Gamer56]

Originally posted by mysteryperfecta:


The above is a prime example of why kids should not play too many video games.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Well for your uninformed informaion I never played games when I was younger, PC's weren't even invented yet.... So get another theory. There is no reason for anyone to take offense or get all bent out of shape because I resent people sticking their noses into peoples lives because THEY don't like something, and I'm bitching about it. To them I say TOUGH, get a life.

[biXen]

There are 3 things one can't discuss properly on messageboards. The first is warez, the second is censorship in games, the third is taste of any sort.

[Hole]

Maybe someone made a secret crack or MOD images/icons/grin.gif

[Sample_H5-180]

I mean, hey, come on, guys. I personally am a 14-year-old, and have played more horribly violent games than you'd believe, and I'm not TOO f*cked up. Grow up! Realize that these games are marketed at the older public. It's not like back when Camel was marketing cigs to kids. There's no Barney in here. There aren't even any MP commercials on TV, besides one I saw during an award show on MTV. Kids are obviously affected by the violent shows targeted at them, and now that the incredibly violent anime cartoons are being shown after school, it could get worse. I don't think it's a stretch to say that violent video games also make a negative impact.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Right on, I agree, but these kids are going to watch no matter what their parents are going to do about it. Plus, what kind of parent are you if you don't pay attention to the way your child is developing through stimuli?

Believe me, nearly everyone who plays this game can tell the difference between reality and fantasy---Oh, crap! There's someone in my room! *does a swift Bullet Time Combo, blowing him away with dual Ingrams*

[Ghast]

There was some discussion at Gamasutra back before they made the switch to webX forums (big mistake) that certain big game resellers (ie WalMart etc) were selling slightly modified versions with objectional material blocked, and that developers were being pressured to come up with multiple grades of content to make this possible. When word came out that Microsoft had the Oddworld folks remove Abe's mother, I could only imagine some really odd thing with Munch's eggs was originally planned??? Its hard enough trying to come up with some fresh ideas without worrying constantly about who will take offense, still I think Max Payne got off rather easy. Its level of realism combined with the general public's conception of games (for kids) could have stirred up quite a hornet's nest.

[Sedoco]

Okay, I'm 14, and I first played doom around when I was 8.
I'm here to refute, at least for one person the arguments put out by NIMF.

1) See the world as a more hostile place.

After Sept. 11, I don't need video games for that.

2) Argue with teachers more frequently.

I only argue with bad teachers, and only when I'm right images/icons/wink.gif

3) Are more likely to be involved in physical fights.

I have never once been in a physical fight.

4) Don't perform as well in school.

I get 80s in subjects I don't like without trying.
In subjects I do like (math, music, science) I consistently get 90s.

I have lots of friends who get around the same marks as me, most of whom have played many violent games.

From everything that I have seen/heard/experianced (personal experiance, other studies, etc), this is just a minority study that censoring governments and angry moms try to push.

Sean

[MetallicAman_91]

Originally posted by mysteryperfecta:
I think games can have an effect on children. We can say it doesn't, but WE'RE NOT CHILDREN, and don't remember how impressionable we were.

Kids are obviously affected by the violent shows targeted at them, and now that the incredibly violent anime cartoons are being shown after school, it could get worse. I don't think it's a stretch to say that violent video games also make a negative impact.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I'm a child (i'm 10) and i OWN max payne. i got it for x-mas and i got it from my brother(whose 16). let's get to the point, video games have not affected my friends or I!!!

P.S. i saw akira, and i watch DBZ. and MGS 2 and GTA3 are more violents than Max payne. man those loosers know nothing!

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: MetallicAman_91 ]

[sawn_off]

Well as long as we're telling, I'm 13 and that's underage! I object to the M rating entirely. I mean who cares if an infant sees Max Payne? Oh yeah he'll pick up two Beretta's and do John Woo action dives! images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[Guest]

Sweetness! Now I know where to go when i dont know what games to buy. Ex "This game has violence, extreme blood and gore, nudity, etc..." hell yeah sounds like my kind of game =) go soccer moms!!