Perfect Soldiers VS Vulnerability and Mistakes

[trackit]

im not a hardcore FPS player but still, i have not seen much "wounded" animations in games. I mean that if you shoot an enemy and he gets wounded then he should act accordingly and stay that way, not heal magically. FEAR had an lipming animation but it ocurred too rarely to my taste. I was in god mode while shooting legs and i had really hard time getting enemy to limp :)

It would be also cool if enemies wount be perfect like machines and make some "humanly" mistakes (yes i know we will fight mostly aliens :D). For example if you catch an enemy by surprise then he could slip and fall while trying to make a quick move or something

also.... enemy guns could run out of ammo or get "jammed" from time to time so they will curse and through the gun or something

all such hings could be just random events here and there with couple of alternating animations. i think it would add coolness to the game.

[hell-angel]

I think that compared to Duke, there is no such thing as an perfect enemy because dukes kicks ass anyway. ;)

[ticknswisted]

I actually have to say that the tripping up and or falling is a great idea, as far as realism is concerned. Perhaps a procedural function instead of a scripted event.

I think 3D Realms does a good job at adding these small details, when you shoot the alien's in D3D they sometimes rest on what remains of their torso and spend their few remaining moments trying to bite you.

[Micki!]

What about just kicking them off ledges and stuff..?! That's more the Duke-ish way to do it... :cool:

[ticknswisted]

What about just kicking them off ledges and stuff..?! That's more the Duke-ish way to do it... :cool:

That'll work. :D

[Micki!]

That said, DO IT 3DR!!! :hhg:

[trackit]

What about just kicking them off ledges and stuff..?! That's more the Duke-ish way to do it... :cool:

what you mean? :) i meant more along the lines that they should make some "mistakes" by themselves :) of course if duke will kick they will fly off the ledge :D

[GoodStuff]

Oh! Be careful!

Someone is going to tell you off for suggesting a "realistic" aspect to put into the game!

After all, if its realistic, is automatically not fun! Right!?

After all Dukes about being on God mode, running around and making 50 kills a minute firing 1000 rounds a seconds! UNBEATABLE!

Ughhhhhhhh, right?:D :D :D :D :D

[Micki!]

I think, if Aliens should be able to make such mistake, it should be becasue they/you did something to them... Like shooting them, they go in panic, and fall down by accident... Or when they are SO busy shooting you, that they hit an explosive barrel and by accident fall down some nearby ledge because of the shock...

They shouldn't make such mistakes by them selves (when you're not there)
Becasue that could in certain cases (wierd level design) result in enemies killing themselves before you even approach them... :o

[ticknswisted]

You're absolutely right, GoodStuff. Can't talk in here with out hitting a verbal land mine. Before this gets out of hand let me explain, simply:

THEREFORE, in consideration of the foregoing, with respect to REALISM (as hereinafter defined), all references and implimentations are hereby ammended as INCLUDING play testing and game balancing required to ensure proper and design consistant with current practices.

The likening to that of actual environment and or conditions, including but not limited to false or fictional situations to that opposing of fantasy without degree or regard to specific instances AMMENDED including above is hereby defined ("REALISM").

[Kalki]

I don't want AI to appear slapstick in any way. I'd rather have existing behaviours be more noticeable. Like a widening of the eyes or other surprised looks.

One way to make them work better is to increase the scale of the model within any given screen resolution. Details can be seen better, especially when you get close up and they fill the screen.

[trackit]

I don't want AI to appear slapstick in any way.

no its an opposite, it will make AI more advanced and fun. Nobody is perfect you know :) its boring to fight all perfect creatures who dont make any mistakes and are always ready to fight you right away like all they do is stand and wait in "attack position"

even in duke 3d some troopers where taking a shit when you busted into the toilet :D that was fun, wasnt it? or you will call it slapstick AI?

[Little Conqueror]

Of course the enemies are going to make mistakes.

Their first mistake is screwing with Duke Nukem.

In all seriousness, though, you don't want to make them TOO stupid. I don't want every firefight to be a "wait until the enemy eventually does something stupid" affair. I don't want bosses to slip on a banana peel and fall into a lavapit. An enemy trying to pick up and throw pipebombs back at me when I've got my hand on the detonator? Sure. Thinking I'm one place when I'm another place entirely? Of course, as long as I had to WORK to get them to think that.

Also, I don't want the EDF trooper (assuming they're still in the game) AI to be totally worthless. These guys aren't as awesome as Duke, but on the other hand, they're probably good at what they do. They shouldn't be absolutely worthless in battle.

[Micki!]

All this talk about stupid enemies suddenly reminds me of the Prey comic i made... :D
http://forums.3drealms.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16572

[trackit]

naah, you guys are turning it all around :) i didnt say anything about enemies being absolutely worthless or stupid etc.... i just said that they should make some mistakes from time to time, here and there (of course not too often)

And if enemy slips then it doesnt mean that he dies because of that :D he just falls and maybe opens fire while lieing on the floor or something...

im NOT saying that enemies should commit suicide as soon as they see duke, like you are trying to make it seem :)

EDIT! yeah Micki, that comic is fun :)

[Micki!]

Heh, in my case, the comic was only refering to Prey's enemies... :D

But, as i said before... When they make mistakes, it should be while they're doing something which logically makes sense for them to make mistakes...
Like stepping on a banana peel and slipping, or fall down when you hit thier feet (when they stand near a ledge or something)
And rolling down stairways when getting hit too hard...

I loved the bananas in NOLF2, and that game also had enemies rolling down stairs (although, only when they died on them)

[Gatinater]

I agree, but the focus has always been on the graphics and special effects. Not the Artificial intelligence and ballistics.

Soldier Of Fortune II was one of the few allowed the player to wound enemys.

[Little Conqueror]

naah, you guys are turning it all around :) i didnt say anything about enemies being absolutely worthless or stupid etc.... i just said that they should make some mistakes from time to time, here and there (of course not too often)

And if enemy slips then it doesnt mean that he dies because of that :D he just falls and maybe opens fire while lieing on the floor or something...

im NOT saying that enemies should commit suicide as soon as they see duke, like you are trying to make it seem :)

EDIT! yeah Micki, that comic is fun :)

Then I don't see what the point is. Since when has any game's AI been perfect? Pretty much every game's AI DOES make mistakes from time to time.

[Micki!]

But in this thread, Trackit is trying to say that he want Human-like mistakes... Not AI mistakes which are common in many games...

I have tried countless amounts of games where an enemy did mistakes, like running right infront of me, and the shooting in the wrong direction, or like i tried in Far Cry once, throwing a grenade against an enemy hiding behind a cover, he walks away from it, i shoot at him, then he returns to the cover where i threw the grenade... *Boom* "weeee" :D

Now this is funny and all, but not the way i understand Trackit wants it... :)

PS
Thanks for commenting on the Comic... :) I assume you saw it before your post right..? Or wasn't it me you were refering to at all... :o

[MAT]

Soldier Of Fortune II was one of the few allowed the player to wound enemys.

Even Soldier of Fortune I allowed you to rip off limbs. It added both fun and realism to the game. No games with such cool features come out anymore. I hope DNF will give the players some more freedom about limb blowing etc.

[GoodStuff]

You're absolutely right, GoodStuff. Can't talk in here with out hitting a verbal land mine. Before this gets out of hand let me explain, simply:

THEREFORE, in consideration of the foregoing, with respect to REALISM (as hereinafter defined), all references and implimentations are hereby ammended as INCLUDING play testing and game balancing required to ensure proper and design consistant with current practices.

The likening to that of actual environment and or conditions, including but not limited to false or fictional situations to that opposing of fantasy without degree or regard to specific instances AMMENDED including above is hereby defined ("REALISM").

THAT WAS THE FUNNIEST DAMN THING I READ ALL DAY!

[shiranui]

I think 3D Realms does a good job at adding these small details, when you shoot the alien's in D3D they sometimes rest on what remains of their torso and spend their few remaining moments trying to bite you.

Er, no... Actually, they are choking to death.

[Wamplet]

God mode should not be in, if you want it to a be a little more realistic. :)

Limping should be in. Both kinds, especially with heavy steroid use. :p

[hell-angel]

God mode should not be in, if you want it to a be a little more realistic. :)

Limping should be in. Both kinds, especially with heavy steroid use. :p

God mode should be in for testing levels and such. :) Also, it can be plain fun trying to kill an end boss with the mighty foot. ;) :love:

[Gatinater]

Games should always have god mode. Not just for testing, but also because sometimes games have a series of overwhelmingly crappy levels, but you want to finish it without actually having to play it. Cause you know the confliction between the unbarable gameplay and curiousity of the content and ending will drive you mad if you don't finish it, and the sooner the better.

[Micki!]

You're absolutely right, GoodStuff. Can't talk in here with out hitting a verbal land mine. Before this gets out of hand let me explain, simply:

THEREFORE, in consideration of the foregoing, with respect to REALISM (as hereinafter defined), all references and implimentations are hereby ammended as INCLUDING play testing and game balancing required to ensure proper and design consistant with current practices.

The likening to that of actual environment and or conditions, including but not limited to false or fictional situations to that opposing of fantasy without degree or regard to specific instances AMMENDED including above is hereby defined ("REALISM").

THAT WAS THE FUNNIEST DAMN THING I READ ALL DAY!

I totally forgot to comment on that one...
That really was damn funny.. :D

[hell-angel]

You're absolutely right, GoodStuff. Can't talk in here with out hitting a verbal land mine. Before this gets out of hand let me explain, simply:

THEREFORE, in consideration of the foregoing, with respect to REALISM (as hereinafter defined), all references and implimentations are hereby ammended as INCLUDING play testing and game balancing required to ensure proper and design consistant with current practices.

The likening to that of actual environment and or conditions, including but not limited to false or fictional situations to that opposing of fantasy without degree or regard to specific instances AMMENDED including above is hereby defined ("REALISM").

THAT WAS THE FUNNIEST DAMN THING I READ ALL DAY!

It was also the funniest damn thing I read. ;) :D

[trackit]

It was also the funniest damn thing I read. ;) :D

i read that thing many times but still didnt quite get it :) i guess my english cries for improvment :)

[Micki!]

^^
Too bad you don't understand... He's explaining the "difinition" of "Realism"... It's quite funny...

[ReadOnly]

i read that thing many times but still didnt quite get it :) i guess my english cries for improvment :)

I read this thing three times and still can't understand it. :)

I must give it another try!

[Michelangelo]

You're absolutely right, GoodStuff. Can't talk in here with out hitting a verbal land mine. Before this gets out of hand let me explain, simply:

THEREFORE, in consideration of the foregoing, with respect to REALISM (as hereinafter defined), all references and implimentations are hereby ammended as INCLUDING play testing and game balancing required to ensure proper and design consistant with current practices.

The likening to that of actual environment and or conditions, including but not limited to false or fictional situations to that opposing of fantasy without degree or regard to specific instances AMMENDED including above is hereby defined ("REALISM").

THAT WAS THE FUNNIEST DAMN THING I READ ALL DAY!

So that is saying that playtesting is used to determine how realistic it should be but what does environmental conditions have in relation(unless you're referring to characters being cold etc)

[hell-angel]

I read this thing three times and still can't understand it. :)

I must give it another try!

It isn't easy, and there are some spelling errors (I believe) that make it more difficult. :)

[ReadOnly]

"The likening to that..."? Give me a break!

I gave up. :)

[ticknswisted]

I fixed the spelling mistakes

THEREFORE, in consideration of the foregoing, with respect to REALISM (as hereinafter defined), all references and implementations are hereby amended as INCLUDING play testing, game balancing required to ensure proper and design consistent with current practices.

("REALISM") defined as the similarity to that of actual environment and or conditions, including but not limited to false or fictional situations to that opposing of fantasy without degree or regard to specific instances AMMENDED including above.

[ReadOnly]

Thanks. Now, I understand something. :)

[ticknswisted]

For those of you who didn't understand basically the point is:

While realism does not necessarily mean fun, when I make a suggestion about adding 'realism' you should automatically assume that my intention is making it realistic and fun.

Why would someone want realism instead of fun? That's what doesn't make sense. So, again... assume that the use of realistic/realism suggestion, perhaps as in a feature, as an idea is being specified as fun and having a similarity to a real life situation.

[hell-angel]

I fixed the spelling mistakes

THEREFORE, in consideration of the foregoing, with respect to REALISM (as hereinafter defined), all references and implementations are hereby amended as INCLUDING play testing, game balancing required to ensure proper and design consistent with current practices.

("REALISM") defined as the similarity to that of actual environment and or conditions, including but not limited to false or fictional situations to that opposing of fantasy without degree or regard to specific instances AMMENDED including above.


Now this is a lot more readable. :D (the other was more fun to read though, but that was probably due to the erros. ;) :D )

[Kalki]

Again, it's amended, not ammended.
no its an opposite, it will make AI more advanced and fun. Nobody is perfect you know :) its boring to fight all perfect creatures who dont make any mistakes and are always ready to fight you right away like all they do is stand and wait in "attack position"

even in duke 3d some troopers where taking a shit when you busted into the toilet :D that was fun, wasnt it? or you will call it slapstick AI?

I agree with injuring enemies or better, disarming them so you can beat a few tidbits of dialogue out of them. Aspects like "enemy dialogue" for cases of interrogation would belong to the given level's scripting and could be limited so eventually they all say the same thing. Finding an enemy on the toilet would be scripting as well and I'd like that to be part of behaviour routines, meaning sooner or later the enemy is going to get off the can, may or may not wash his hands and then drop a soiled magazine in the bin.

AI could include the ability to play up traditional "mistakes" by swearing incoherently or raging at you (when shot) or skidding to a halt/tripping and then scrambling away (when you toss a leading pipebomb so that they run into it). But I don't want gun jams and other artificial errors "forced" onto the enemy character.
Also certain characters, on maximum states of fear, could crap their pants or drop a load because Duke is in the room. Not like Duke 3D though, better, because the fact that Duke was scary to the lizard troopers wasn't that obvious. Intermediate fear levels should have their own tells on enemy behaviour.

I should go check out the Batman Begins game. :doh:

[ReadOnly]

This mistakes will be cool only if the don't repeat in every 5(or even 20) encounters. If 1 of 20 enemies most likely slip from the stairs every time I'll be really pissed off. Or if every time in the same place this specific enemy will slip from the stairs. But the latter variant more appropriate since the game linear. But the sense of some random mistake will be ruined.

[hell-angel]

It's an FPS so AI as far as I am concerned doesn't have to contain a lot of routines. I think that with an FPS like DNF scripting is all that you need for the AI, since you do a lot more with that then most people think. :)

[ReadOnly]

That's George opinion too. And you knew that. :)

[hell-angel]

That's George opinion too. And you knew that. :)
Is that so? I honestly don't remember, but if it is then he is a smart man. :p

This has been my opinion about AI for years. You can get away with scripting since it is very powerfull, but you do have to put the time in it because it can of course easily suck. :)

[the longest death]

thats what most fps suffer from nowadays. there enemies are clumsy and die easily while you are walking around killing 6 at once while they can kill you.i want a fps where the enemies are fearce and every encounter is very dangerous. even on the hardest difficulty in dn3d i still ran through it like a breeze killing everything. make it hard but not to hard.

[ReadOnly]

Is that so? I honestly don't remember, but if it is then he is a smart man. :p


He said sometime ago that all this great meaning of AI is overestimated.

[Micki!]

He said sometime ago that all this great meaning of AI is overestimated.

Heh, i remember that... It was mentioned in one of my old PC mags too...
That's a pretty old quote...

[ReadOnly]

Hmmm, if I remember it was somewhere in 2005 on this forums. So, he's opinion didn't change over the years.

[Micki!]

I'm pretty sure, that the magazine i have where it was mentioned was from late 2004... But anyways, i wouldn't expect him to change on this either...

[peoplessi]

I could see that more "human" side for aliens to work quite well. Occasional mistakes and mishaps should work well in a game like DNF, but for the limping animations, I do not know, would this add great value to the game?

[hell-angel]

He said sometime ago that all this great meaning of AI is overestimated.

Well, then I agree with him. You don't need great AI, as long as the game is fun to play and the AI doesn't ruin it. :) (of course, different people have a different opinion about this. ;) )