Will Duke Nukem Forever have realistic reloading?

[RemoteControl]

One thing that bothers me is video game developers that create games based completely around guns, then screw the guns up. Black is a good example. They talked about how amazing their guns would look, and how realistic they would be. As soon as I started playing it I found flaws in how almost all of their guns behaved.
A good example is the shotgun...
The shotgun is pumped after every shot - realistic If the gun is emptied it will be pumped after being reloaded - realistic If the gun is half full, and a shell is ready to be fired(no more pumping required), and you reload, once he fills the gun he pumps it again - Stoopid!

If you did that in the real world you would eject a perfectly good, unused shell onto the ground.

There are several things that dont make sense in the game, and it ruined the "authenticity" of the guns. I just hope that 3Drealms doesn't make Duke look like an ass, and waste his ammo through stupidity.

[hell-angel]

Well, it is of course possible to fix that (one "if-statement" in theory). Personally I don't find that annoying though. :)

[InnerChild]

I don't think many people pay attention to the way you handle your guns. I for one didn't even know how to realisticly reload a shotgun beside the thing I've seen ingame. But yes, it could probably be implemented in the game

[Kalki]

They should have the chambered round count as a +1 bullet, in which case the reload (or magazine replacement) could be seen as a mid-point reload and firing one shot during a reload could even be allowed(if that's possible). Gun nuts, I beckon thee!

[trackit]

i trust 3dr in that department... i think they will do fun and nice gun/shoot/reload animations :) and i dont care if it will be 100% like in real world or not... fun > reality :D

[Gatinater]

I know, I think they do it to save animations. The only game I know that did most reloads correct is Global operations. Plus when you switch weapons you decock or engage the safety. The revolver reload is even done properly.

The revolver is held with the left hand. While pushing the ejector he goes for a speed loader with his shooting hand (right). Inserts the loader then lets the loader fall to the floor as the right hand is placed back on the grip he use his supporting hand (left) to shut the cylinder. So they did some research because only a shooter that has range time with a double action revolver reloads it like that.

It's the only game I know of in which the slide doesn't lock to the rear unless the last round is fired. you can actually reaplace a mag without the slide opening, because they did multiple animations to make it seem more realistic.

Also changing magazines before emptying the current magazine would result in 15+1 or 30+1 rounds in your gun. They actually kept track of the round in the chamber. Which was a cool touch you can switch mags before running out so you won't have to go through a reload animation and it makes it feel more realistic.

I know, if there is already a round in the chamber there is no need to cycle the action. The shotguns tubular magazine just holds the shells. Cycling the action ejects a shell from the chamber, snags one from the tube and inserts it into the chamber.

If you have a good shell in the chamber and you reload the gun then cycle the action all your going to do is needlessly eject a good shell to feed another one.

I like these companys that claim they used and ex gree beret or something to advise them on reloads, but 80% are wrong. So either the guy is a fraud, they lied. Either way they make him and themselves look stupid.

Why can't anybody get an AR-15 reload right? Play Global Ops. That game will show you exactly how to relaod one.

Most of the time when we had ours sitting around the range or in the locker the bolt was locked in the open position. So we rarely ****ed with the charging handle. Only after we cleaned we use it to lock it open. We left them like that so we could just insert the magazine and hit the bolt release. Only other time we had to use the charging handle was if we got a serious jam that required recharging the rifle after clearing it.

On the AR-15 series including the M4s and M-16s there is no way to use the charging handle to reload it unless the bolt closes with no round to feed. Other than that the handle is disconnected from the bolt when the bolt is open. Last round ejects and the bolt haulted and remains in the open position.

That's why I along time agon just replace the magazine or insert the shells when relaoding. Do nothing else, because they always do it wrong anyways.

[naddie]

While I understand your frustration with a game like Black (or other "realism" games), Duke Nukem is just plain fun, and not even based around realism. Otherwise, we wouldn't even be fighting aliens.

[RemoteControl]

Fun is important, but if 3DR does their stuff right, which would only take a little extra programming, they would succeed at somthing that most games fail at. Even when their main goal was realism. 3Dr dosnt need to settle for the same mediocre design that always seems to work its way into any EA game. They need to be better.

[AWE300]

Yeah, while Duke3D's weapons were totally awesome they weren't realistic. I'd rather have totally awesome instead of realistic, and I trust 3DR to do the right thing :D

[SyntaxN]

One thing that bothers me is video game developers that create games based completely around guns, then screw the guns up. Black is a good example. They talked about how amazing their guns would look, and how realistic they would be. As soon as I started playing it I found flaws in how almost all of their guns behaved.
A good example is the shotgun...
The shotgun is pumped after every shot - realistic If the gun is emptied it will be pumped after being reloaded - realistic If the gun is half full, and a shell is ready to be fired(no more pumping required), and you reload, once he fills the gun he pumps it again - Stoopid!

If you did that in the real world you would eject a perfectly good, unused shell onto the ground.

There are several things that dont make sense in the game, and it ruined the "authenticity" of the guns. I just hope that 3Drealms doesn't make Duke look like an ass, and waste his ammo through stupidity.
fun >>> realism for this type of game ;)
imo it´s fine how it works in most games, the *pump* after reloading adds much to the feeling of the weapon and shows the player that his gun is ready to shoot again. What bothers me though is the lack of different animations for weapons, reloading and the recoild animation often have no variety in them. Doom 3 has 3 (or so) different animations for the recoil, and in general the weapons in the game show much more "reactions" than the weapons in other games. Duke should go the same way, with more than one animation for every weapon-based action like reloading etc...

[RemoteControl]

Fun>>>, and Realism<<< dont have to be one or the other. They can go together. All I want is Duke not to dump his ammo all over the ground, but never lose it. If the guns behave like real guns its not going to take all the fun out of the game.

[peoplessi]

Whats with you people with all the guns, I do not recall D3D to be such realistic either with the guns.

[Sang]

Naaah, reloading guns is for pussies :)

[Kalki]

Duke kicks ass. Having a +1 shot helps kick one more ass. In this case, Duke should have an accurate reload system. :p

[Gatinater]

The concern is the stupidity of the mechanics. The guns couldn't work that way.

Duke3D had it right. Like the pistol. Duke just put a new mag in. He never played with and doo dads on it.

He never put shells in shotguns tube.

That's the way it should be. Just like an action movie. Don't reload riot guns and simply replace magazines Forget about trying to figure out how something you don't understand works. No animations of playing with slides or charging handles, or action releases.

Just eject and insert and forget about any animation involving any other manipulation. Either do it right or don't do it at all.

Plus it would fit Duke. Like action movies. Their magazines have 7,000 rounds and they never reload.

Without a shotgun reload how do you handicap it? Other designers had resolved that by making it underpowered. Which just really defeats the purpose of it presence in the game. "Cool, a shotgun. WTF? My pistol does more damage" It ends up being useless.

Something aint right when you shoot an enemy with one small projectile and he dies, but when you nail him 8,9,15,27,41 or whatever amount of bullets the buckshot shell your using contains and it does next to no damage.. something aint right.

I don't expect the game to be accurate, but in most of these games the ranges you're at can't be any more than 10-20 yards. Even at 40-50 yards most of the pellets should hit your target. Won't knock em around like point blank would, but you will still put plenty of holes in them. If you had a field gun with an extra full or even tighter choke and long barrel you could group the pellets together into a circle the size of a quarter. at over 100 yards. But you have an open cylinder short barrel combat shotgun. Which is made to spread.

For entry open cylinder or improved cylinder is best for wide range. But for out door deployment you would do best to outfit with an modified or full choke. That is if you don't plan on using slugs. But if you want to use slug then stick with the improved cylinder choke.

I guess the shotgun would be too powerful if they put into reallity. So the best way to handicap is to tone it down.

It seems all the weapons in all games not only don't work as they should mechanicly, but ballistically as well. So it seems to me if your going to make a shooter the best scenario is close ranges and confinments. Under those conditions range is even a factor.

[SyntaxN]

Naaah, reloading guns is for pussies :)
No. :tinyted:

[trackit]

Plus it would fit Duke. Like action movies. Their magazines have 7,000 rounds and they never reload.

i dunno what movies do you watch :)

i think reload animation should be in the game... its cool... And as george said some long time ago it should be just right, not too long or complex that it will destroy gameplay but at the same time some reasonable reload animation adds to the game

[Gatinater]

i dunno what movies do you watch :)

i think reload animation should be in the game... its cool... And as george said some long time ago it should be just right, not too long or complex that it will destroy gameplay but at the same time some reasonable reload animation adds to the game

Well they reload once or twice but fire about 300 round before they do. It only takes like 2 seconds to unload a full auto weapon with a 30 round mag. Tap the trigger a few times and it's empty. Shells eject so fast it looks like a necklace is coming out of the ejection port.

They roughly fire about 300 rounds before they reload in a movie. I think terminator 2 was the only movie I have ever seen in which they counted cartridges.

[Micki!]

It's funny...
When i saw this thread, i had to think of Gatinater... And now, he's suddenly posting again... :)

[Dopefish7590]

Fun>>>, and Realism<<< dont have to be one or the other. They can go together. All I want is Duke not to dump his ammo all over the ground, but never lose it. If the guns behave like real guns its not going to take all the fun out of the game.


You care Waaaaaaaayyyyyy too much

[Judge]

@Gatinater:
I strongly suggest you to take a look at
movies: "Heat"
pc games: "Americas Army" (I know, it's propaganda, but whatever)

Americas Army is for free and Heat is a pretty old movie, damn good though. It should be cheap to get.

[St. Toxic]

Let's see; I'm Duke. What do I want when I'm armed to the teeth?

I want to spray bullets like there's no end to them, and hear the empty cartridges loudly clink-clonk against each other on the floor.

I want to see my burly, veiny arms pulling at the different gun modes, checking the clips, straightening the barrel, all with a fitting sound of gun deconstruction (ka-chink, click, clack) before running into the next wave of steroided pig cop sob's.

I don't want my gun jamming on me at the worst possible moment, but knowing action films I think I do want a scripted jamming somewhere, and the hell that follows with it.

The realism thing can be taken too far, while it definately has a place there, it can be taken too far. Most importantly, for me ofcourse, is gun massivity -- the gun immersion value, that what you're holding is nothing other than a gun. Think about it. You're holding a gun for crying out loud! A big, lead spewing bastard of destruction.

Fine; some games have given me the ability to muck about with my gun, doing this and that and shooting with the knowledge of how realisticly the bullets project from the barrel and burrow themselves into a wall over there, and how accurate a replica the gun is of that of a real one, yabba yabba yabba, and so forth. But it's rare that I find a game where holding a gun actually feels like it, I mean, the power that comes with it. The sounds are often clogged up, the effects can be a bit strange at times and the impact of bullet penetration either sends ragdolls flying over to the other side of the level, or makes them roll down a stare at turtle rate.

I think you'll understand what I'm talking about, but in case you don't, I'll bring up two ( slightly older ) familiar gametitles.

Soldier of Fortune, and now I know what you're going to say. "Gosh mang, the shotgun was like a 4 poly box of bullcrap and the all the weapons were like unrealistic and stuff gee" and that whole lot, but for me the ghoul hit system took the strain of any faulty weapon design. The bullet impact was rewarded with some fantastic gore, just incredible stuff, so when you ran past a room unloading your 12 gauge into a group of baddies, you just got that "I'm a God of Destruction, baby" feeling. I'd always walk in, slowly, after I'd taken em' all out, and just stand there reloading my arsenal. Felt like a badass killer in a badass movie.

Back when Painkiller came out, it also had a bit of 'gun toting bastard' wibe over it. Sure, completely unrealistic weapons and you're playing a dwarf to boot. But that rocket launcher / minigun combo thing always had me by the balls. Spraying bullets with a soothing yet powerful twang sound, seeing them bounce on every surface and body, and the perfectly calculated bloodsprays that followed. The whole set of them in fact had a distinct feeling of "made for killing a bunch of friggin daemons in purgatory, so don't piss about", and it was pretty grand. The response you get from simply shooting a guy in the chest ( realistically, and without the splatter ) isn't "POWERFUL GUN", it's more "WEAK ENEMY". I seriously think that games going for the action movie setting need a bit of corn-logic, where even bystanders take 4 shots to the chest to die completely. As is with the movie industry, and so ofcourse with the game industry as well; you can make anything look realistic.

[avatar_58]

I hope to god games never have realistic loading.....why? Well if I ever play a game that discards ammo if I reload early (if I have 5/12 ammo and I reload, the 5 bullets are tossed) then I'm going to scream. I reload all the time if no enemies are around....any realism in this case would just be annoying, not fun.

[ReadOnly]

It's fun to make your reload optimal and to choose whether to lose some bullets and be full or not to lose but possibly reload during battle. You think it's not fun because you get used to this type of reloading in every game. Don't know who started this "arcadish" reloading but for some time in games I wasn't noticing it and thought that I may lose bullets if I'm going to reload too early.

[Phayzon]

Just like an action movie.

I love movie's where a guy shoots 20+ shots out of a 6-round revolver. Or hundreds of shots from a 30 or 50 round Assault Rifle :D

Or where they cock the gun when the turn every corner. They (would) waste 10 shells!

[Gatinater]

I think games Should be more like blood II. Total action movie. Never reload. IF they aren't going to do the reloads right then don't do them at all.

The advantage of the AR-15/M-16 isn't just it's ease of handling and shooting. One of the AR-15's improvments on the automatic rifle is reloading. It's so fast compared to others. Just hit the ejection button with your trigger finger while getting loaded magazine with your left hand, then insert the magazine into the well and hit the bolt release with your supporting hand. (Left) Your instantly back into the gun fight. If your a south-paw it's the other way around.

I've played America's Army. For 5 minutes, then quit. Didn't care for it. Too much bullshit to go through to get into the game. Besides it's aggravating because it's obviously trying to encourage kids to join the ARMY. Plus it wouldn't let me log in, I wasn't determined to play it so I gave up.

Speaking of funny shit they do. In the blood and doom games after firing the coach gun the shells aren't there when you open it.

Look at Quake, QuakeII, DooM & Do0M II, Team Fortress and Unreal. You never reloaded and those were great games back in their day.

[avatar_58]

It's fun to make your reload optimal and to choose whether to lose some bullets and be full or not to lose but possibly reload during battle. You think it's not fun because you get used to this type of reloading in every game. Don't know who started this "arcadish" reloading but for some time in games I wasn't noticing it and thought that I may lose bullets if I'm going to reload too early.

Realism for the sake of realism isn't a good thing. Unless it adds to the gameplay and makes the gun more fun then I don't see the point. Why would I want something in the game that purposely annoys the hell out of me? Why not have realistic damage so that one shot can kill me hmm? How about if I get shot in the chest I die from complications 4 levels later?

[hell-angel]

How about if I get shot in the chest I die from complications 4 levels later?
LOL :D

Seriously, this is not an important feature IMO, else you should also do realistic reloading of other weapons where you loose any remaining ammo in your clip when you reload. DNF is simply not the kind of game for that. :)

[Sang]

No. :tinyted:

Yes.:love:

Anyways maybe they can insert that "quick reload" kind of thing. You know, switching weapons back and forth reloads your gun. HL2 had it (don't know if that's fixed yet with EP1), GTA: SA had it.. It's unrealistic, but it's cool :) If you want to play fair & square, just sit through the reload animation.. If not, switch switch switch!



Urh of course I'm only kidding.

[big fat lazy]

Yeah I don't like it when guns reload themselves when you switch between them. Though you have to do it in the GTA games cause there's no manual reload.

[Gatinater]

Realism for the sake of realism isn't a good thing. Unless it adds to the gameplay and makes the gun more fun then I don't see the point. Why would I want something in the game that purposely annoys the hell out of me? Why not have realistic damage so that one shot can kill me hmm? How about if I get shot in the chest I die from complications 4 levels later?

It's for the total action movie feel. How else do bad guys shoot at you and not hit you unless the game is supposed to be like an action movie? We've all seen action movies. Almost always some bad guy is shooting the protagonist with a machinegun at close range, the muzzle is pointed right at him but some how they don't hit him. They really need to buy live ammunition and stop trying to shoot the good guys with poppers. Them crazy bad guys.:doh:

I could understand cartridge count in individual detatchable magazines. It adds tension and skill to the game. But instead of dropping the particially loaded mags you should alternate them and only ditch empty ones. the mag might only have 9 bullets in it but they're still good. You alternate mags, you don't drop them. In a game or movie it doesn't matter but really they cost money and you need them to feed ammo into the gun.

Some games give you the option of Arcade and realistic, but that died out. Vietcong has that option and they did it really well. You can choose to only use the open sights or optics, the HUD doesn't tell you how much ammo you have in your magazine either.

It doesn't change the action one bit. All it does is change the interface. The problem with games it that you have no sense of dimension or direction. You can't just point the gun at something as if you were pointing your finger, because you have no feel. And since the gun is never actually pointing straight ahead (more like crooked and off the side) it's almost impossible to point it at something without the aid of a crosshair.

More realistic interface & interaction would be welcome. Real damage could be a menu option or something implicated when you set the game to extra hard or something.

No one wants to change the interface though. The way they do it now is the easy way. It's already setup for a crooked floating gun and crosshair. The engine has been like since 1990something. No one wants to change it. Why fix it when the old way still works?

If there's an option for auto reload I turn it of so I can switch to a backup or secondary weapon when I run out of ammo. Such as a pistol or shotgun.

[Mennuz]

Whats up with al the realism?. I hope that they do the reloading just right. Automatic Reloading, not manual. But not that a gun can shoot 1200 bullets without ever having to reload.
Its Duke Nukem people, too realistic wouldn't suit it. Besides, he is a one man army against a invasion of aliëns who kick de EDF's ass, realism is allready in the question there

[StainedCheeks]

There is 2 things that are important for the gun play in video games. 1: the guns look good, ie: perfect dark zero. 2: the guns MUST have the ability to double tap, "tat tat" ie:rainbow six black arrow, yes this is console stuff and i certinly hope the 360 gets the ultimate blessing of DNF. I allways buy the pc versions which are cool but to chill in the lazy boy and double tap targets is a blast, "chill style". so as long as double tapping with ur awwsumm weapons is in dnf, reloading is in the back seat. stuff the realistic reloading with dukes main handgun, I want a extended mag that holds at least 17 rounds.

[Altered Reality]

What about this: you never have to reload. You see Duke reload the gun himself, and he does it the CORRECT way. This would not destroy immediateness (is that a word?) and the classic, boring cliché of action heroes who never reload their guns would be broken.

[The Red Slaughter]

I prefer to reload meself. And the boring cliché of end-less mag action heros is anoying - Remeber Charles Browson and his infinite magazine pistol?

[brock2621]

I'm sure a mod will be made to satisfy your needs soon enough :)

[Duke_Deadite]

ladeedadeedodeepoodoodeedew

read the sticky RemoteControl, entitled "read this before posting - THIS MEANS YOU", if somebody doesn't want you asking "Will feature X be in DNF"
then you really shouldn't ask "Will feature X be in DNF"

I say: You are the ONLY feature not supported in DNF
You say: You wouldn't know what realistic reloading was like if it...
I say: You're a realistic reloading was like...
You say: Kajark-jahk...
I say: You know what?
Then I pull my &!$% out of your @$$ and we both shut up...

[Magnamuz]

Why don't we do a medical post and discuss the injury system? I think they have a lot more to say about that, but it would be TWICE AS BORING!

I’m always in favor of realism in DN, but don’t cross the line of stupidity, because they can put delayed walking and pain in the back because of bringing too much weapons and ammo, let’s cut the crap A LITTLE.



If the gun is emptied it will be pumped after being reloaded - realistic If the gun is half full, and a shell is ready to be fired(no more pumping required), and you reload, once he fills the gun he pumps it again - Stoopid!


Reloading in the middle of the magazine (losing the remaining shots) is as stupid as pumping that last bullet because of poor realism, but I agree with the proposal, and disagree with losing the remaining bullets of the magazine.


P.D: Gatinater, I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings, it was just a general complaint :insomnia:

[StainedCheeks]

i just hoping that if u double tap a pigcop in the head he drops. tag him in the nuts, he drops his shoty. shot him in the foot he hops around discharging everywhere, posably blasting hi own mates...

[Malgon]

That relates to making the enemies interesting to fight on top of being more realistic in reacting to bullet wounds. :)

[The Red Slaughter]

Yeah, cool ideia. Enemies reacting to bullet wounds. Of corse, don't expect a great reaction from a battlelord hit by a pistol xD

[Forcie]

I know DNF isn't a super-realistic game. But since a FPS game like DNF is pretty much centered on guns, it needs to have a fair balance between realistic features and action hero/movie "physics" to be a good and polished game.

Action hero stuff: Being able to carry insane amounts of ammo, shooting accurately without using the iron sights, shooting hundreds of rounds without the gun overheating (actually it would be nice if it did overheat and start to smoke, if it didn't stop you from firing), firing machine guns without replacing the barrels, knowing how to use an alien weapon on instinct etc. etc.

Realism: Actually handling the guns as they are supposed to be handled, including proper reloading, using a believable clip size, bullets doing belieavable damage to enemies (of course a big ass alien might have armor or be way bigger/stronger than a human and not react as much to being hit as a human would, but a bullet should still do proper damage and not just subtract -15 hp from a total of 200 with a tiny blood splat or such shit).