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Geronimo
06-28-2006, 03:08 PM
I haven't herd any news about what Native Americans think about Prey. As far as I know this is the first game to have a Native American lead character so I figure they'd be interested. I was curious as to why we haven't herd anything from that community. Or has it just not reached the white press?

brandon105
06-28-2006, 03:09 PM
They like it, cause one of them posted here the other day, he is a police officer. ect

Orochi Avlis
06-28-2006, 03:10 PM
As far as I know this is the first game to have a Native American lead character so I figure they'd be interested
It is, but Turok was released before Prey was. So technically Turok is the first game to have a native american hero.

Kristian Joensen
06-28-2006, 03:25 PM
But couldn't he just as well have been something other than that ? Was he authentic ?

Orochi Avlis
06-28-2006, 03:46 PM
Not by a long shot. There wasn't any ties to actual native american heritage.

So yea, they could have used anybody in his place and it would still be the same.

Danule
06-29-2006, 06:48 PM
they could have done the same thing with prey, instead of being native american he could have been any old joe who smokes some DMT and goes into the "spirit realm", ;)

Deep Six
06-29-2006, 08:24 PM
they could have done the same thing with prey, instead of being native american he could have been any old joe who smokes some DMT and goes into the "spirit realm", ;)

Yeah, and his quest wouldn't be to save his girlfriend and the world, it would be to turn the sphere into the universe's largest intergalactic meth lab.

Joe Siegler
06-29-2006, 09:39 PM
they could have done the same thing with prey, instead of being native american he could have been any old joe who smokes some DMT and goes into the "spirit realm", ;)

Hey!

:ted:

:D :D

Danule
06-30-2006, 01:16 AM
Hey!

:ted:

:D :D

im sorry i should have mentioned i was talking about you :P

Geronimo
06-30-2006, 02:22 AM
Umm...So like nobody has any idea what Native Americans think of the game? I mean it's not very often you get a Cherokee as a lead character in a game.

IRO-bot
06-30-2006, 02:28 AM
I am part Apache and i have no problem with it. I think it is awesome. I mean a game is a game, nothing more then that. It is there to provide entertainment. I dont want to turn into a Jack Thompson or whatev that guys name is.

Brutal Assassin
06-30-2006, 02:30 AM
Lol, I do hope the thread creator wasn't hoping for a native american's response :P

Given that such a small percent of people of native american descent exist, and the fact that only a portion of that percent play video games, and that only a portion of THAT percent will play Prey and only a portion of THAT percent would end up on the forums.

Unless, of course, Prey made the news. Then all of the sudden there would be offended native americans coming out of the woodworks with law suit threats, I'm sure.

EDIT: Well, what are the odds. Someone who is part apache posts at the same time I am typing. My god...LOL

Phait
06-30-2006, 02:40 AM
They like it, cause one of them posted here the other day, he is a police officer. ect

One person's opinions don't speak for the rest of their kind. Don't ever assume that about anything.

hanged_man
06-30-2006, 04:46 AM
I dont there's anything offending to red indians in this game ...on the contrary, it reminds us that there are native americans out there

Needle
06-30-2006, 07:56 AM
I've already seen (supposedly) native americans bitch about it on other forums.

Micki!
06-30-2006, 08:13 AM
Well, the two voice actors, making voices for Tommy and Jen, are both native americans, and they obviously like it...

WVa Cherokee
07-04-2006, 10:50 PM
I came across this game yesterday when I was bored and browsing through the Xbox Live Marketplace. Downloaded the demo and was really excited to see not only an Indian, but a Cherokee (I am Cherokee if you haven't guessed by my username :) ) as the "hero". Naturally my first thought was, "ok, what'd they screw up." Let's face it, the entertainment industry doesn't have a good track record when it comes to showing the real face of Indian people.

Even though I've only played the demo, I have to say that with the exception of a few points, I am pretty happy about the Cherokee representation within the game. Are there Indians looking to "get off the rez" because they feel like they are going nowhere? Sure. Are there Indians who turn their back on their heritage? Unfortunately yes. Are there Indians who come back to their heritage? You bet. Are there Indians who want to stay due to family, tribe, etc? Of course.

That is what I was happy about. With the exception of Enisi wearing buckskin as everyday clothing (which I have seen NO ONE every do), Jen and Tommy were just modern everyday Indians doing everyday stuff. They weren't in a tipi and muttering "me smok'um peace pipe" or any crap like that.

I am curious as to what Enisi's name really is. Enisi is the Cherokee word for someone who is addressing their paternal grandfather and is not a name. Though the devs only had Tommy's perspective in using the term, they may just have decided to go with Enisi for the sake of the players.

Another is Jen praying to "yo-nee-gwa" as the "Great Spirit/Creator" (well, Tommy makes the reference to the Great Spirit in referring to Jen praying). To me that sounds like a mispronunciation of "yonegwa" (yo-neh-gwa) which is a contraction of yona (bear) and egwa (great or huge) and is therefore Great Bear. The Creator is called unehlanvhi (oo-neh-hla-nuh-hee).

Again, other than those little points, I was really glad to see an everyday Indian portrayed though how much stereotypical stuff will emerge will only be known when I can play the rest of the game.

KaiserSoze
07-04-2006, 11:13 PM
Again, other than those little points, I was really glad to see an everyday Indian portrayed though how much stereotypical stuff will emerge will only be known when I can play the rest of the game.

Nice post and very informing! :)

3drealms and Humanhead have stated they are treating the portrayal of Native Americans with the utmost respect and did do alot of research into the culture to make sure they "got things right".

I'm glad we're not playing yet another special agent/cop/military "hero".

It's definately a nice change of pace.

StainedCheeks
07-04-2006, 11:49 PM
Nice post and very informing! :)



I'm glad we're not playing yet another special agent/cop/military "hero".

It's definately a nice change of pace.

you said it!

garland81
07-05-2006, 01:15 AM
Hey Injun (or WVa Cherokee). Am a ojibway native here. Posted my 2 cents on this post:

http://forums.3drealms.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19445

I agree with alot pretty much everything u said up there about natives and rezzes. I may have to agree with Needle also that some natives will gripe about companies making money off native-y stories. I'll talk about that in a minute.

The portrayal of realistic natives is a very, very daunting task.. that even the greatest of actors will have alot of trouble emulating.. reasons that were directly tied to the native language itself, its perceptions, and mentality behind it which could only be felt, that the only people who can really fully grasp it are the natives who were born into a world of native speaking people. Knowing that, it wouldn't surprise me that non-natives would screw up a bit when trying to properly portraying native characters, lol. Either the spiritual rhythm is always with you or never at all. :P Sounds like a Jedi thing :D

To Needle, I believe it when you say some natives would gripe about Prey being released.. not because of proper portraiture of native people but because some feel that buying and/or selling of native art is the selling of the soul, pieces taken out of you just so big corporations would make money.

I personally think that's ridiculous for two reasons.

1. The way I was brought up is that the spirit can never leave you no matter how much you try to give it away and you can never lose pieces of it when you create art, but instead it leaves fingerprints behind of what the spirit can create. The spirit is eternal and will forever be.. long after the sun burns out.

2. The concept of money is really just an illusion of what it really is: "Trading Points". Everyone works by providing a service by utilizing the skills one knows that contributes to society.. and after you contributed so much, you are rewarded with money (trading points) in which you can trade for goods you require that other people created.. and all the money that is earned is recycled back into the society. Then, some idiot thought that was power. Lol.

I laugh because Power is dependancy and that makes power an illusion. Big corporates are solely dependant on their customers to buy their products and if they screw up, their company plummets. Which also means power is really just 'capability' and 'responsibility'. You are capable of doing stuff but you are responsible of the action you took.

In the end, I really don't care if they make money off of it because it'll all get recycled eventually and a corporation will have provided a gorgeous product that may (or may not) be forever in the memories of gamers. Time will tell.

Looks fade, money is spent, knowledge fades into oblivion.. and all you have left is who you are and the memories you leave behind. :)

WVa Cherokee
07-05-2006, 02:19 AM
The portrayal of realistic natives is a very, very daunting task.. that even the greatest of actors will have alot of trouble emulating.. reasons that were directly tied to the native language itself, its perceptions, and mentality behind it which could only be felt, that the only people who can really fully grasp it are the natives who were born into a world of native speaking people. Knowing that, it wouldn't surprise me that non-natives would screw up a bit when trying to properly portraying native characters, lol.

Exactly. So long as there is an honest effort is all I look for :). I was pleasantly suprised at what I saw. To look at it from another angle, let's say that there is a Mafia game that a company develops. Then let's say that a real Mafia member plays it. No doubt they are going to shake their head and laugh at some of the bits in the game hehe.

CameO73
07-05-2006, 03:42 AM
1. The way I was brought up is that the spirit can never leave you no matter how much you try to give it away and you can never lose pieces of it when you create art, but instead it leaves fingerprints behind of what the spirit can create. The spirit is eternal and will forever be.. long after the sun burns out.

I'm no native American, but I wholeheartedly agree with your statement.

Kalki
07-05-2006, 04:00 AM
1. The way I was brought up is that the spirit can never leave you no matter how much you try to give it away and you can never lose pieces of it when you create art, but instead it leaves fingerprints behind of what the spirit can create. The spirit is eternal and will forever be.. long after the sun burns out.

I'm a different kind of Indian(South Asia) ;) and many of us believe the same thing. Actually we've got a Great Spirit too and it's so omnipotent, it is representative of Everything. The Universe, humans, living beings, all matter, energy, etc. and even that which may be beyond the Universe. So to look at it one way, you're leaving your fingerprints on the Greater spirit. But it's a part of you too so you're never losing anything. :)

StainedCheeks
07-05-2006, 04:31 AM
ah yeah, ahshera, ah yaeh = Iam that I am= from the great spirit, to flesh, back to great spirit. well thats what some spiritual guy said, hey it led thousands out to the desert to look for a burning bush. i love all spiritual stuff. somewhere there is an answer to all questions, some call it the akasha records some call "him" the angle gabriel. what do the native americans call"it"?

tom12
07-05-2006, 04:45 AM
. . edit . . never mind, speculative

Nashoba
07-05-2006, 10:24 AM
I'm Choctaw/Cherokee and I think it's great to see American Indians in a leading roll in video games.

Do I expect it to be culturally accurate...no...the final game will probably be filled with the same New Agey fluff that always seems to be associated with American Indians.

What I do like, at least from the demo...is that it gets enough stuff right (i.e. feeling the res will take him no where, his girlfriend feeling tied to her land and people, etc) for me to relate to the main character and being able to sympathise with the hero of a story is important no matter what the tale or how accurate.

Hopefully they will do a decent treatment of the characters, but if not...it is still shaping up to be a fun game.....if they don't portray my people accurately....so what...it's just fiction, it's not like it's a documentary.... (though what Tommy goes through is the same right of passage we all natives go through....we all have to save our Significant Other after being abducted by aliens in order to be considered an adult...allright...who told the white man our secrets??? j/k);) :cool: LOL

Gideon
07-05-2006, 10:02 PM
Who cares? You never hear anybody asking what white guys think of games like Hitman. I mean really, this sensitivity crap is getting old. Prey is a good game that happens to have an indian (can we still call them that?) lead character, and I think it portrays him in an average manor. Typical normal guy that happens to be caught up in horrendous circumstances. The fact that he's a native american doesn't mean we automatically have to be super-sensative about it.

garland81
07-05-2006, 11:42 PM
To Kalki: During my studies of native sociology, there has been remarkable similarities to other native-like people in other places such as the natives of australia (who shared a history of warring with settlers and put into residential schools), the tribes people of New Zealand (shared beliefs of the 'Healing Circle'), and some similarities to the bushmen of Africa (cant name anything off hand). It wouldn't surprise me if you saw similarities in beliefs or ceremonies etc.. but does bring a smile to my face. :D

To Nashoba: Hey Injun. The thing I really found intriguing about Prey was the fact it blended two concepts together. The Supernatural (spirits/ghosts) and the Paranormal (aliens). It's a nice blend of two opposing natures: Science vs Spirituality. One about proof.. the other about faith.

To Gideon: ................... *scalps* j/k :P oh and Indians are from India. We're natives :P

wildcatchimp2
07-06-2006, 12:02 AM
Why is everything rascist now. You call a guy Black it's racist if a black guy calls you a cracker its a slang term. Call a native american an indian it's racist. A native calls you the white man it's fine. From know on I want to be called an Italian,german,polish,luthwanian american and if anyone calls me anything different I'm going to call them a racist [/sarcasim]

garland81
07-06-2006, 12:19 AM
Well.. wildcat there's a fine line between racism and inaccuracies and like I said in my other post, it's the context of the word.. how its used which makes it racist or not, for all words are neutral. Some people don't recognize what's racist and what isn't. Calling a guy black isn't racist as its more of a form of identification, but to say he's black with a disdainful tone implies that he is inferior.. which is actually racist.

Calling a native an indian isn't racist.. its just inaccurate.

Gideon
07-06-2006, 12:37 AM
Up until Pollitical Correctness reared it's ugly head, indians were called indians for several hundred years, forgive me if I can't adapt to the current term. But still, I've got nothing against any other race, but I do have a problem with *****footing around their sensitivities.

sindex
07-06-2006, 12:44 AM
At least we are all Omnivores, unless certain people only think “veggie” and think their getting some good protein out of beans and nuts; and as for the people on those Atkins diet watch your heart. Yes, I know that statement was a bit odd but hey it’s “free speech” at its best. Peace out man.

Laz
07-06-2006, 12:56 AM
Who cares?

Hmm, the name of the topic is 'So what do Native Americans think of Prey'. Apparently the topic creator cares. As do I. I've picked up a little knowledge from reading some of these posts that I normally wouldn't have came across. Keep up the angry white guy routine. Since I believe in equality and such:

Gideon, how do you feel about the portrayal of caucasians in the video game Hitman?

avatar_58
07-06-2006, 12:57 AM
2. The concept of money is really just an illusion of what it really is: "Trading Points". Everyone works by providing a service by utilizing the skills one knows that contributes to society.. and after you contributed so much, you are rewarded with money (trading points) in which you can trade for goods you require that other people created.. and all the money that is earned is recycled back into the society. Then, some idiot thought that was power. Lol.

I laugh because Power is dependancy and that makes power an illusion. Big corporates are solely dependant on their customers to buy their products and if they screw up, their company plummets. Which also means power is really just 'capability' and 'responsibility'. You are capable of doing stuff but you are responsible of the action you took.

In the end, I really don't care if they make money off of it because it'll all get recycled eventually and a corporation will have provided a gorgeous product that may (or may not) be forever in the memories of gamers. Time will tell.

Looks fade, money is spent, knowledge fades into oblivion.. and all you have left is who you are and the memories you leave behind. :)

Insightful post. :) I happen to agree with some of it, as 'power' is usually what clouds judgement and is the root of many social problems.

I think Prey is great for going beyond the age old american marine and choosing a more diverse hero. Sure Turok already had a native, but if anything that game just reeked of sterotypes. Prey, on the other hand, at least pays respect to its subject matter.

CameO73
07-06-2006, 02:17 AM
At least we are all Omnivores, unless certain people only think “veggie” and think their getting some good protein out of beans and nuts;

It's these racist remarks we veggies must not tolerate anymore! ;)

But I agree with garland81's post: it all comes down to intention. And that is something that can be felt without the words.

Gideon
07-06-2006, 03:29 AM
Gideon, how do you feel about the portrayal of caucasians in the video game Hitman?

I don't. Doesn't make any difference to me what color he is. He's a character in a video game, He's a bad guy killing bad people, I don't feel like the game creators are saying whitey is bad.

I just think it's sad that just because a native american is the lead character in the game, that it will spark outcry in the media. They'll find someone that won't like it and put them on TV.

I think the game would be just as cool if he were a black guy, a white guy or whatever. The only thing that would suffer is the whole spirit walk thing and naturally it'd change the story a bit.

I think it's a good thing that it's a native american, cuz I loved Turok too, but anybody that sees anything negative in this is looking for a reason to whine.

WVa Cherokee
07-06-2006, 04:23 AM
The main reason Indian people are glad to see things like this is because they are almost never depicted in a non-Hollywood format. With that being the case, it feels good to see an Indian actor not playing a "Hollywood Indian" (think Wes Studi in "Mystery Men") or the hero of a video game as an Indian. This almost never happens so it is cool to see. If it happened on a more regular basis, the "neat" factor would no doubt wear off. It isn't about sensitivity.

I saw in another thread here that someone was complaining about how being proud of an Indian heritage (as in the game) was unnecessary and that if someone proclaimed being proud of being white that it would be "frowned upon". I'll try to explain a bit here. I know more people and family than I can count that went to Indian boarding schools and were forced to learn English and become Christian. They were told they were heathen, pagan, savages, etc. Those older people went through this and because of it, wanted their young people to feel proud, not ashamed as they were made to feel at times.

I also have a large number of white friends who are proud of what they are whether it is Irish, white American, French, etc. The only groups that I know of that are "frowned upon" by mainstream society for being proud of being white are the white supremicist groups. I also have mixed blood friends who are proud of their heritages.

One thing I have noticed is that so many people are quick to play the "he/she is playing the race card" card whether that person is playing that "card" or not. To me, they are just as bad as someone who plays the race card just to cause trouble. These people come from all groups...just like all groups have their good people as well as their goobers.

Back to the game, I saw a review saying that this game was based on authentic Cherokee "mythology" (as they call it). I can't wait to see how that works out though no doubt some things will be fudged or added for the sake of gameplay.

Daewoodrow
07-06-2006, 08:29 AM
You know what, that's why i'm "Proud" of being mixed race (white british and Black caribbean). At the end of the day mixed race people have nothing to live up to, because neither of my two societies accept me. It allows me a totally unbiased look at the whole race relations thing.
I hear white people complain about pressure on them not to be racist, and how they aren't allowed any personal pride.

First of all, white people have plenty of personal pride. The basis of UK and US culture is entirely about white pride. The economics, the religion, the entertainment fields, all created to and a homage to the white race. But in all the self glorification those afforementioned complainers don't see that, out of jealousy of the level of pride the other races and cultures have. The fact is white people killed their own culture long ago, complaining wont bring it back. That's why I laugh when people around here speak of France as being "cultural". For a white country it certainly is, i'll tell you that.

Second of all, white people would not get so much flak over racism if they weren't historically the most racist of any race to occupy the planet. Does this mean you should be punished for it? No. But you can't expect the whole world to trust your race just like that. It will take time, and it doesn't help that there are still so many openly racist people around, as well as the discreet racists.

I want to make it clear that the behavior of all races angers me, not the least my two own races. Maybe it's just the west, but around here it seems racial pride has become entirely cosmetic. I respect ANY race or culture that has a true respect for their own heritage, and I don't know much about Native American culture, but it certainly looks like it does just that.

Laz
07-06-2006, 08:39 AM
But you can't expect the whole world to trust your race just like that.

Yeah, that's right. Distrusting an entire race based on the actions of some people of said race is the way we can beat racism!

garland81
07-06-2006, 10:07 AM
I think we need a group hug now. :D

Daewoodrow
07-06-2006, 11:37 AM
Yeah, that's right. Distrusting an entire race based on the actions of some people of said race is the way we can beat racism!

Did I say we shouldn't trust your race? I said people don't trust your race. I said it wasn't fair, but you can't blame them. Yet you misquoted me just to change the point of what i said, no doubt to change into a statement you are more capable of responding to.

Is this how it's going to be? Then fine. If anyone of higher intelligence would like to pose a couterargument, i'll discuss it with you. Till then i'm done here.

Nashoba
07-06-2006, 12:13 PM
I saw in another thread here that someone was complaining about how being proud of an Indian heritage (as in the game) was unnecessary and that if someone proclaimed being proud of being white that it would be "frowned upon". I'll try to explain a bit here. I know more people and family than I can count that went to Indian boarding schools and were forced to learn English and become Christian. They were told they were heathen, pagan, savages, etc. Those older people went through this and because of it, wanted their young people to feel proud, not ashamed as they were made to feel at times.
This is the part that sucks about being Native. I'm 1/4 Choctaw, 1/4 Cherokee with a smattering of other races for the other half (LOL I know I'm a mutt) But even being half blooded...since my family was ashamed of their heritage, having been made that way, I don't even know the language of my own peoples (though I'm trying to learn, but I fear at my age I will always speak with an accent)

So much langauge and culture is lost...it saddens me. Try to find a Choctaw who practices their old beliefs instead of being Baptist....not an easy...(if it is even possible) task And if they don't exist...that part of the culture is gone forever, except as recorded by outsiders in history texts.

Or what information you do find is buried in all of the New Age "Rainbow Tribe" stuff that seems to fill the bookshelves on Native culture. I mean really....Chakras...sorry bub, you got the wrong kinda indian :-)

Anyway...I'm a bit off topic...so....

Prey rules! LOL

WVa Cherokee
07-06-2006, 12:58 PM
Nice to see another Cherokee here :). Learn the language...keep it alive!

Laz
07-06-2006, 05:05 PM
Did I say we shouldn't trust your race? I said people don't trust your race. I said it wasn't fair, but you can't blame them. Yet you misquoted me just to change the point of what i said, no doubt to change into a statement you are more capable of responding to.

Is this how it's going to be? Then fine. If anyone of higher intelligence would like to pose a couterargument, i'll discuss it with you. Till then i'm done here.


Uh, way to read. Nowhere did I say that you believed white people couldn't be trusted. I did not misquote you either. You did,in fact, say what I quoted. I believe you meant I had taken what you said out of context. I'd like you to point out the part of my previous post where I said you were a bad person and you didn't trust white people. Then I'd feel you had the right to say someone had a lower intelligence than yourself.

I merely commented on what you said, which is allowed. This is a public forum, afterall.

garland81
07-06-2006, 10:19 PM
Is it me or are all the natives (me, Nashoda, and WVa Cherokee) not in this two-way argument? :P I think i'm just gonna go smoke the peace pipe (no, not weed either) for awhile. Want a puff WVa? :P

Speaking of which, I got a pow wow to attend to this weekend.

Nashoba
07-06-2006, 11:02 PM
Speaking of which, I got a pow wow to attend to this weekend.

Man that's what i hate about moving to a new area....don't know the peoples here, therefore can't go to pow wows (no clue who has 'em or where)....I miss my fry bread :-)...do the any of the North Eastern tribes even have fry bread?....I'm so lost in NJ....nothing like OK....ah well....one year behind me...not as hard as it first was anyway. Ranocas festival is only 2 or 3 months away.

WVa Cherokee
07-07-2006, 01:15 AM
My wife makes great frybread. I'll send you some :).

Gatinater
07-07-2006, 01:49 AM
I haven't herd any news about what Native Americans think about Prey. As far as I know this is the first game to have a Native American lead character so I figure they'd be interested. I was curious as to why we haven't herd anything from that community. Or has it just not reached the white press?

Why does it matter? I'm offended by this question, because it puts an emphasis on differences. Why does the race and heritage of the protagonist portrayed in this game matter?

I noticed Tommy and his family are american indian and the story revealed that they are cherokees, but I didn't put any thought into it other than it's a nice change of scenery, characters and plot motive.

Gideon
07-07-2006, 04:44 AM
Why does it matter? I'm offended by this question, because it puts an emphasis on differences. Why does the race and heritage of the protagonist portrayed in this game matter?

I noticed Tommy and his family are american indian and the story revealed that they are cherokees, but I didn't put any thought into it other than it's a nice change of scenery, characters and plot motive.

Excellent, that's EXACTLY what I was trying to say. Well worded.

garland81
07-07-2006, 09:23 AM
We don't have frybread here but what we do have is.. "Bannock" :D and "Balogna" :D. Btw, there's a comic strip called Bannock and Balogna. :P

If you wanna try some.. I'll just deflate the bannock and stuff it in a letter envelope and send some over. :D

Decker
07-07-2006, 10:42 AM
The topic wasn't if the native Americans approved the game, just what they thought about the portayal of the native aspect in it. I don't know why some ppl feel like suppressing the discussion. I found the tidbits in this thread about native heritage and language interesting.

SuicideRUN
07-07-2006, 11:01 AM
The topic wasn't if the native Americans approved the game, just what they thought about the portayal of the native aspect in it. I don't know why some ppl feel like suppressing the discussion. I found the tidbits in this thread about native heritage and language interesting.

It is interesting, but you notice there's never questions like. What do white people think of Max Payne or Duke Nukem. Only when another race is the main character do people worry about what that race thinks about it.

garland81
07-07-2006, 12:33 PM
Oooo I got some crazy questions. What do you think about a white man playing the role of a black man whose trying to be a white man? Or how bout a woman who's trying to be a man who dresses like a woman? What if Duke Nukem was given the title of Duke and was ordered to fire nuclear missiles? Would it look like this on page: Duke Duke Nukem says "Nukem". What if Max Payne felt pain? Would he get mad? Would he be Mad Max Payne in Pain?

Ok that's enough of ridiculous questions :D

WVa Cherokee
07-07-2006, 01:09 PM
Why does it matter? I'm offended by this question, because it puts an emphasis on differences.

I used to know a guy who said stuff like that. He felt there should be no differences. Everyone MUST be a Christian (like him). Everyone MUST speak English (like him). In short, he was not happy unless everyone had the same cultural viewpoint as he did. That kind of ethnocentric attitude does not lend itself very well in this situation. Especially when a minority from another culture is representing the "hero".

What is so wrong about members of that minority discussing this? Especially when it almost never happens. The majority of people (IE white people...they are the majority after all :) ) sometimes do not see this point of view because for their whole lives the hero has almost always been white (Superman, Spiderman, etc). Every single American president has been white (possible long lost heritage notwithstanding). Black people are starting to get into the mix after the Civil Rights stuff. You have more and more black people in positions of power, possible presidential candidates, tv/movie heros, etc. This is a good thing of course.

But my point is, is that Indian people haven't even gotten that far. Maybe one or two senators. Ever hear of a high profile/big business CEO who is Indian? Indian people don't have a version of Oprah. It is VERY rare for an Indian actor to play just a regular guy in a movie like say, a detective or scientist. And...um...yay, we get Apache Chief as a super hero! :P

But we are getting there...slowly but surely. It is from this kind of perspective that we view movies and Indian portrayal within them. It is also from this perspective that we can say, "Wow, I can actually play a hero in a game that I can identify with more." We see these things and hope that the creators at least tried to get a few things right. We think things like this because mainstream society sometimes still thinks of Indians as "hollywood Indians" rather than what they really are. It is hard to be taken seriously in a world where the population's main source of information about your people is what they saw in a few movies.

Again, it is from this perspective that we discuss things like this. If this situation were not so rare, then there would be no need for discussion.

StainedCheeks
07-07-2006, 01:15 PM
it is really cool to listen to you Wva cherokee. I wish You the best.

Nashoba
07-07-2006, 01:53 PM
I used to know a guy who said stuff like that. He felt there should be no differences. Everyone MUST be a Christian (like him). Everyone MUST speak English (like him). In short, he was not happy unless everyone had the same cultural viewpoint as he did. That kind of ethnocentric attitude does not lend itself very well in this situation. Especially when a minority from another culture is representing the "hero".

Or any situation for that matter...uniformity is boring. What people tend to forget is that equal rights or equality is not the same thing as uniformity. People can celebrate their differences and heritage and still be equals :)


What is so wrong about members of that minority discussing this? Especially when it almost never happens. The majority of people (IE white people...they are the majority after all :) ) sometimes do not see this point of view because for their whole lives the hero has almost always been white (Superman, Spiderman, etc). Every single American president has been white (possible long lost heritage notwithstanding). Black people are starting to get into the mix after the Civil Rights stuff. You have more and more black people in positions of power, possible presidential candidates, tv/movie heros, etc. This is a good thing of course.
But my point is, is that Indian people haven't even gotten that far. Maybe one or two senators. Ever hear of a high profile/big business CEO who is Indian? Indian people don't have a version of Oprah. It is VERY rare for an Indian actor to play just a regular guy in a movie like say, a detective or scientist.

Well Said!


And...um...yay, we get Apache Chief as a super hero! :P
We have a super hero?? Who knew....

We think things like this because mainstream society sometimes still thinks of Indians as "hollywood Indians" rather than what they really are. It is hard to be taken seriously in a world where the population's main source of information about your people is what they saw in a few movies.


Yeah when I first worked in New Jersey, my employer asked where I am from, and I told her Oklahoma....she looked at me dead serious and asked if we were still having problems with the Indians (I didn't inherit the lack of heavy facial hair or the straight black hair that most people identify us with...) Anyway..I laughed , and told her I was Native, and then said no, it's the damn cowboys that are the problem now...lol

Point is...your right....in areas of the country where we don't have a large presence like we have in OK, some people still seem to think that we still run around in Buckskins, or that every Native is a shaman and has some uber deep spiritual wisdom we can impart on them....


Again, it is from this perspective that we discuss things like this. If this situation were not so rare, then there would be no need for discussion. Great points WVA...nicely worded. Now I'm off to make me some fry bread (I hate making it...but craving now....) and introduce it to my Russian in-laws....they always act weird about traditional foods...yet you should see what they eat ...blech

SuicideRUN
07-07-2006, 01:57 PM
Nashoba, don't make me start naming Native American superheroes. In the X-men series alone there's been like 12. I'm a comic freak and I know minority heroes, gay heroes, heroes with aids, heros with addictions, heroes with emotional issues, heroes from the past who fight their evil future self. You name it and it's been done in comics.

Nashoba
07-07-2006, 02:04 PM
Nashoba, don't make me start naming Native American superheroes. In the X-men series alone there's been like 12. I'm a comic freak and I know minority heroes, gay heroes, heroes with aids, heros with addictions, heroes with emotional issues, heroes from the past who fight their evil future self. You name it and it's been done in comics.

LOL I never really followed comics, and my wife is mostly into Manga, so it was a matter genuine surprise because I really didn't know, I wasn't thinking we had been slighted :)

Unless they are major and in movies...(and then only the ones my wife drags me to, because I'd rather stay home and read) I have no clue about them LOL

Geir
07-07-2006, 02:52 PM
I beleave this thread is going to be in the archives some day and that is why I'm saving it now to actually truthfully say in the future that I read this thread and enjoyed every aspect of its information, it's diversity, it's examples. There has never been a symilar game and I congradulate everyone who helped on making this game the way it is today. I cannot beleave this thread contains actual native american responses concerning the native amarican aspect of 'Prey'. This is en excelent example of a discussion.

Racism... no, predijuces, they haunt the minds of most people, I know; I know this becuase I actually do think that fat policemen eat dohnuts all day, but that's not the point. Specificly, racism is the point in the paragraph, with my thesis being that african and indian (Asian, not native) amaricans are not drowned in racist comments, but they do use this to their advantage... and in my school, it seems to be somewhat of a joke. You see, nobody is using racism in a bold way at school, it's not even noticable by me; but still, these students piss off teachers, saying that they got in trouble (when they get in trouble) just because they were black. The least I can say is that the teachers do not approve of this, even when it is followed by laughing by anyone. even african and indian teachers do not approve of this becuase it shows that this new generation is being molded badly and that they are using racism to their advantage, students are letting teachers know that thay like the fact that people are being predijust, and hence racism will go on in the hearts of the next generation. Unlike any other student, I, being of that generation, disaproove.

What I also disaprove of is what hollywood preceaves of not only natives, but arnold shwartsnegger, russians, crack-smokers, american teenagers, even werewolves (because I know much about these topics) and everything else that has been implemented into movie veiwers' minds not only by the multi-billion-dollar movies, news and tv, but by some books and music!

I, myself, am Russian (I'm in canada, though... it's a spinoff of 'an englishman in new york'). When I say that I am russian to my clasmates, some of them ask me if I do that funny dance or play russian roullet (don't ask) and some others ask me why I don't have a russian accent. I tell these people that I don't dance, that I have never lost an appendage in my life (which might disturb people if they think the other way) and that I never use the (I feel, hollywood-ized) rusian accent because I was assimilated into canada (I can understand some of the rusian vocabulary, but I can't write and it's hard for me to say anything in russian, you just can't get it out of me; which answers the other qestion of "can you speak russian?" or the command "speak some rusian this instant!"). I feel that nothing russian is put into the minds of this generation of high-school students in canada and that is good (hay, I'm the second Russian I know in my school) and I also feel prowd that I am so F'in rare (exotic is the word?) in these parts. I also feel that whatever hollywood put into our minds about russians is not good. some examples would be that sometimes in 'relic hunter', I don't beleave they speak proper russian, let alone english (there is my dis of the day...) and in the adams family, members of that same family should not play russian roulet or put swords in their mouths often (actually, never do that again!), laura croft's Tomb raider 7 portrayed the russians so-so with their language, but I have heard that in 'legend of redwall' (books and movies alike), moles were meant to be sort-of rusian, is that true? beucase I did not detect it. So, along with saying that I don't like the way hollywood does some russian stuff, I'm saying that there are examples of all types of discrimination in hollywood, and not just of african and indians and native americans, but of everybody: swedish, canadian (eh?), and everything else alike.

I have read about the assimilation of the native americans (duh, but thats not my point) and I feel sorry that ancestors of all religion had to be put through that (for it is not gods will, but that is also not my point). My point is that we are givin this information and we are taught to decide weather this was a good idea or a bad idea... wheather you were on the side of the natives or the europeans that came here and assimilated... and weather you say that it is gods will to do something (which I beleave is plain bullshit) or that freedom must be granted to every bean, being black, white, mixed or animal or weather you say that, "The crackers are the borg!!!!!1111" (you might never know...). We are given this information to do something about it! We did not make the past, but we will make the future from this informaiton. we will either get game over and do this assimilation stuff all over again, or we will learn from those idiots behind us's mestakes (no offence...). It is a great thing that some history teacers guide us in the right direction, saying that 'this' is not good, but others say that this is not 'freedom' (if I go any more on my opinion of this in particular, I will drive off this road and talk about my opinion on the "Thanatos" instinc, which I, oddly enough, highly agree apon (emo))

Dispite my bad spelling and stuff (which I hope you can read), I have enough two cents in there to buy me a beverage... lets take a break.

The Bad Guy
07-07-2006, 02:59 PM
I used to know a guy who said stuff like that. He felt there should be no differences. Everyone MUST be a Christian (like him). Everyone MUST speak English (like him). In short, he was not happy unless everyone had the same cultural viewpoint as he did. That kind of ethnocentric attitude does not lend itself very well in this situation. Especially when a minority from another culture is representing the "hero".I don't think he said that everybody should be the same, but that people shouldn't focus on differences, because this can lead to poeple disliking people in other groups. It's possible to be different, but not focus on the difference. Whether this is desirable of not is another question.

Gatinater
07-07-2006, 10:07 PM
I wasn't saying we should all be the same aesthetically or religiously. If it was flat out bigotry I would have ignored it, because I believe people should have the freedom to believe and feel the way they see fit as long as it doesn't physically harm anyone else or become a harrassment.

Not only that, but also because under the conditions of bigotry you can't make them change their mind. They don't feel the way they do out of ignorance, but rather disgust or hatred.

This topic initially suggests a racists attitude. Many people don't realize they are being racist, they have this notion that since their intentions aren't spiteful that they are not being racist. But, you don't have to be a bigot to be a racist.

Racism is when you put an emphasis on racial differences. Racism isn't always a bad thing because it's undeniably obvious that we are all different, but the sword has a double edge and swings both ways so it cuts both ways.

These things aggravate folks of the Caucasian persuasion because we are scrutinized, so every little racist thing we say makes us out be hitler or super-bigots. Then you go and say something like this and all it does is swing the sword back at us again, but the cuts we take are not ok. We don't appreciate the privileged racism.

I'm sure it wasn't intended to be hurtful but it does aggravate people.

garland81
07-07-2006, 10:30 PM
To Geir: Lengthy post. Lots of issues covered. Ever notice the satisfied stay quiet and the complainers speak up? Ever notice why alot of the jerks go no where in life while sometimes others who struggle hard enough succeed?

A canadian comic once said: "I was once asked by an american if our people or canadians all lived in igloos and I said to him 'Psh! Poor people live in igloos. I... have a snow fort.'" :D

Life, ultimately, is a balance and we constantly revolve around this wheel of fortune and misfortune. First starts off good then degrades into this awful era then back again into good fortune and back down once more.. revolving around in circles for the rest of your life. Nobody escapes this balance either. You think some jerk who said something ignorant is going to get away with it? Lol, nope! What comes around goes around.. eventually. That's how it works.

There is so much ignorance in the world and not enough teachers to teach them their own manners.. probably because the teachers aren't teaching or saying the right thing to jog their minds.

Just last week, I was talking to an Iraqi guy who is very tied up about his own religion and the current affairs of his country. He kept telling me about the holy wars that divided his people, about his religion's deities and pantheons, and the perceptions of he had towards other ethnic groups and all I saw was just strings among strings of resentful thread hidden inside his tone of so many things. But then he asked about my culture.

So I told him (in 1 hour) alot of the deepest teachings I've learned over the years and he was utterly shocked and mesmerized about the depth knowledge and wisdom of native elders. (Not trying to say we are the answer and everyone should convert lol).

What I'm trying to say is, these teachings were all harnessed from some place, extracted from some experience that it must've took aeons of trial and error just to obtain and fully realize these moral values and words of wisdom that the wise men now obtain.

Now, when you look at society now and all the problems going on, one has to ask themselves: how much twisting of a knife is needed before people start learning.. before the deeper creed is realized? If you could only say one thing to the world what would you say?

I would say this: "The vast majority of conflicts and fights and anger erupting throughout the world comes from one very source and that source is pain." (the other being ignorance). When you insult someone, you inflict pain, which later ignites into anger and the person offended.. retaliates, thus a conflict or war happens.

If you tell a kid he is bad, he will grow up thinking that he is. If you show the kid what he did was wrong and show how it affects other people, he will grow up understanding why.. and understanding is a powerful word.

(some native teachings for ya lol)

garland81
07-07-2006, 10:40 PM
So, can I try some of your fry bread Nashoba? :P You could mail it to me. I'll send you my address through smoke signals. Do you understand morse code? lol

Nessus
07-08-2006, 12:19 AM
It is interesting, but you notice there's never questions like. What do white people think of Max Payne or Duke Nukem. Only when another race is the main character do people worry about what that race thinks about it.

Why would anyone wonder how white guys portrayed themselves? Basically almost all videogames are made by only 2 groups, Whites and Asians so when a game is made about another culture entirely that to my knowledge none of the team members belong to of course people are going to wonder how the portrayal is recieved. I think when people say things like, "Why does it even matter, I barely noticed", that this is disingenous and it's become how we are trained to act these days not to get tagged with the dreaded "R" word. I'm hoping HH and 3DR did a great job, so far it looks pretty good except for a few tiny things already mentioned, Too bad they didn't consult you guys before they made the game.

CameO73
07-08-2006, 06:20 AM
It's all about looking at yourself instead of at the other. Other people can show you something about yourself (and vice versa). But some people don't want to see their true selves. Afraid something bad might show up. These fears manifest themselves as insecurity, anger, frustration, selfpity etc.

Racism is based on one of many fears: the fear that someone else is better/more beautiful than you. It says a lot about how you see yourself, by the way.

Theonewayman
07-08-2006, 08:29 AM
it is really cool to listen to you Wva cherokee. I wish You the best.

Yes me to. :)

garland81
07-08-2006, 10:58 AM
It's all about looking at yourself instead of at the other. Other people can show you something about yourself (and vice versa). But some people don't want to see their true selves. Afraid something bad might show up. These fears manifest themselves as insecurity, anger, frustration, selfpity etc.

Racism is based on one of many fears: the fear that someone else is better/more beautiful than you. It says a lot about how you see yourself, by the way.

There's an ojibway ceremony related to that (fear i mean) when a boy gets of a certain age, usually around 12, he spends 3 days fasting in a sacred grove. The grove is usually miles away from his home and where there is no one around. He only has water to drink and must spend his three days. The purpose of the grove is many-fold.

During the days, it's not so bad.. just hot and you are left stewing in your own thoughts, but when it hits night time, because you are by yourself.. everything becomes terrifying. It's all pitch black and your ears become hyper accute and all ambient sounds blare out like crazy. Crickets, raccoons, bats, and other indistinguishable things sound throughout the night. Thoughts stew inside your head about evil spirits, wendigoes, sasquatches, and other predators that could easily hunt and take your life and there's no one around to protect you or save you if something happens.

It was meant to teach you about your own fears because when the morning hits, so does your humiliation when all you were afraid of were just crickets and raccoons. Understanding your fears diminishes your fears. Also, when you return home, you get a greater appreciation for food (because you were starving in the end) and people (because you just had a very intense experience).

As for the difference between what you want to see about one's self compared to who actually one is.. yeah.. I don't think the majority of racism is what that is. Racist opinions of other ethnic groups are usually the deluded perceptions passed on from one person to another or a improper interpretation of information.

Eg.: A bomb goes off in Iraq and kills some soldiers, some guy at home will say "$^%@en Iraqis!! What the hell is wrong with them?!? If I ever see one, I'll pump lead into those @$^*ers faces!!" or.. someone downtalks one ethnic group to another person and that other person's adrenaline kicks up and goes "Jesus ^%#&en christ! I hate those @#$^ers now!! If I ever see one of those $^%& I'm gonna take a bat to their face!!" which ends up happening. It's different for other people. Short-sighted, deluded opinions, perceptions, and/or interpretations are the core of it.

I say these things because that's what happened during the "Oka Crisis" in Canada 1990 when a bunch of suits built a golf course over an indian burial ground. Racism went to an all-high extreme then. You don't want to know how bad it was.

Dae_Man
07-08-2006, 12:18 PM
Back on topic... :)

I love this thread, very informative and a great read.

Whilst I have only a part of American Indian in me (and I don't know any further than that, since it was my Dad's Dad and he never knew him), I'm very interested in the culture(s).

One of the things I like most is that the game does not show American Indians as savages or less-than-humans, as I've seen in far too many movies. The fact that the character you play is American Indian is pretty exciting for me.

I'm glad other Indians have seen the game as one that is taking goods steps, and I'm glad that the events I see in the game do have some truth in their background (despite being a little off.)

I love this game. Prior to checking out the demo, I wasnt too excited - simply because I thought the original stuff 3DR did would be better (I thought they were getting rid of most of the portal stuff.)

Great read everybody, and I'm glad Prey is being well recieved!

Nashoba
07-08-2006, 12:18 PM
I think the other thing to consider is...that more than anything it's not race we are talking about when a certain ethnic group is asked, but culture.

If you look at the question: "What did Ative Americans think of Prey?" On the initial surface someone sensitive would say: "that's racist....no one ever asks what whites think about white portrayls" It has also been said in this thread that whites aren't aloud to be proud for fear of being racist. Valid points if you are looking at the very narrow definition of who you are....just skin color and phenotypal differences.

The problem with these perceptions that minorities are able to express pride and whites are not stems from the falacious thought that we (the minorities) are celebrating based on our race, with a few fringe exceptions, this is not the case.

Native Americans happen to have a shared history and similar cultures. Now see...originally pride was based on one's Nation...and still is to some degree. A Sioux was proud to be a Sioux...and all that entailed....they did not think of themselves as "Native American" they thought of themselves as Sioux. But now we are a scattered people, some of us can never vote in our Nations because an ancestor was not in the right place at the right time....or did not want to participate in the US's programs (talking about the Rolls and rolls numbers) In order for one to be say, Choctaw in my case , I have to have had an ancestor who got put on the rolls. It doesn't matter I'm half blood, I am cut off from my people because someone over 100 years ago didn't get counted. So I like others like me, being tribeless, cut off from our people to a degree, began connecting with others, and the Big picture Native American pride took root in the culture. Were the only race that can't legally claim to be something without showing an offical pedigree.
I'm a Native Artist...but I can't say that...because I'm not legally recognised as such....

So yeah...Native American has come to be a catch all for all the scattered tribes, recognizineg we have a shared culture.

But this goes for most of the minorities, Puerto Rican, Mexican, Indian (India), Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese...you get the idea.....

If you noticed....these are not races.....these are cultures, Nations.

With white pride it's no different......it's just not called "white pride" You celebrate being Irish, Scottish, German, British...American, (Not all white...but you celebreate the pride of where you came from....be it Italian, French, Spanish.....you get the idea)
Pride is about culture and heritage...not the color of your skin.

Hell I've known some proud Natives, who had a good percentage of Native in them (about 1/4), who were as white, blonde and green eyed as you could get, But they were raised in the culture, steeped in it's traditions, and they _were_ Native.

Is there Caucasian pride day? No, but Caucasion isn't a culture it's a phenotype, like Mongoloid is a phenotype. There's no Mongoloid day either.
But I'm willing to bet you are descended from something that _does_ have a pride day.

Don't limit your field veiw to skin color...that is racist....the rest...it's just cultural pride in a shared haritage among people who happen to share phenotypes.

StainedCheeks
07-08-2006, 12:40 PM
wow, thanks heaps for the tokes off the peace pipe gentlemen. if we ever meet up in multiprey i will gaurd your spirit or take a frag for you. but iam about an 9 hr flight to the south pole so my lag limits me. I truely love where yous are coming from. now i will take one more toke off the peace pipe and hand it back..world peace will come some day, this I believe and you guys are respected in all parts of the world. Know this to be true, I have traveled and seen your images everywhere. i wish you long lasting inner peace......

WVa Cherokee
07-08-2006, 12:54 PM
Technically there is no such thing as a "peace pipe" :). That is a European term based on what they thought they were seeing. Still, the sentiment is appreciated :).

Personally I can't wait to see what the rest of this game has to offer.

garland81
07-08-2006, 01:23 PM
I think WVa is right on that one.. and Mr. Nashoba put out some really nice points out there that other people should listen to. I agree with him whole heartedly.

To Nashoba: hmm, half blood? I don't see people whose native in terms of how much of their blood is native, I sometimes see natives in terms of native mentality and how much a portion of it comes from native teachings and heritage.

I know a half blood who's a cop and looks perfectly white and he thinks he's being native by reciting the history of natives.. though he has absolutely no information in the native society or the way of life for that matter.

I also have a half brother who's half blood and he's a politician for the reserve and though he speaks, looks, and sometimes thinks like a white person, but he's becoming more native everyday by inheriting the mentality of the native spirit.

I also know full blood natives who absolutely do not act native at all (even sounding like a white person) as if they lost their heritage entirely, whom if you changed their skin color would ultimately be a white person.

Then, there are some full blood natives I know who don't act native at all, thinks like a white person, (sometimes are agressive) but you can tell they are native by their dialect, little gestures they do, little native sayings like "Eehhhhhhhh" or "Hooowaaa".

Then, finally there are people who are completely white, but think, talk, and act like a native person (even knowing the language) and if you changed their skin color, they would be.

There's a really distorted line between whom one should call a native or not. Maybe its the mentality, maybe its those little things, maybe its skin color, maybe its blood amount. It differs for different people questioning this.

(Btw, if anything I said is offense, you have my deepest apologize. It was not intended so)

(PS: There's definately gonna be a debate about that aspect itself lol cuz one could say alot of japanese buddhists share the mentality and teachings of a native elder but are not native at all.. or that one wise philosopher can know so many things about life and not touch the subject of natives and could be considered native just by what i said.. I'm probably not entirely right either when I say native mentality is being native. so Eh!)

Nashoba
07-08-2006, 01:40 PM
To Nashoba: hmm, half blood? I don't see people whose native in terms of how much of their blood is native, I sometimes see natives in terms of native mentality and how much a portion of it comes from native teachings and heritage.
(Btw, if anything I said is offense, you have my deepest apologize. It was not intended so) No offense at all:)

When I mention I'm half blood, I merely refer to genetic proportions. It's just a sore point with me that I cannot legaly be part of my Nation, and cannot claim to be a native artist without being sued because I don't have a number that links to some government pedigree, and that we are the only race that has to prove this.

I agree with you that Native is a combination of many factors. I just get a little ranting about the roll card thing. :D

Even though I was raised in the culture, I still feel like I'm not "legitamate" sometimes because I don't have a card, and I'm still struggling with both langauges (Choctaw and Cherokee) since my mom refused to speak them and I only learned from my grandmother and had not placed any emphasis on it before she died (it wasn't important to me then...but now that I'm married and plan to have kids someday...I want my children to carry on the languages and traditions, so I regret not learning when I could :( )

garland81
07-08-2006, 01:48 PM
I remember a story way back and I think it's about the Mi'Q Macs whom once lived in Nova Scotia canada and moved some people down south to america where some of their ancestors lived but they couldn't be legally recognized as native americans by the US because most of their people lived in the Nova Scotia area and it wasn't registered with some charter of aboriginal rights or something.

If I remember correctly, they had to go to court or the senate or something.. some legal battle and they had to fight (in court) just to earn the right of being recognized as a native american and they won. Maybe, that's something you could do research on.

But personally, I recognize you as a native for you have the native spirit. I hope that matters more than some legal documents.

Gatinater
07-08-2006, 02:11 PM
It's not an issue of jealousy, far from it. It's an issue of tact.

I have a question regarding the term *Native American*

I'm Native to North America. Doesn't that make me a Native American? I'm not an imigrant nor am I a citizen by visa. Sure we could split hairs and concure that indian ancestors were here first, based on what historians believe, but that was them. So why are Cherokee still thought of as *Native Americans*

garland81
07-08-2006, 02:22 PM
Good question. Probably resorts to the deeper meaning of the word native and what it means to us in comparison to what it means to other people. It's probably (like what Nashoba said earlier) based on phenotype... like saying the difference between japanese, tawainese, chinese, korean.. a more vague term would be oriental. As with native americans can be broken down to cherokee, ojibway, blackfoot, beothuks (extinct), cree, etc.

Native Americans meaning.. they and their ancestors were native to america. Some would argue that native ancestors themselves aren't also native to america and their ancestors crossed the berring strait bridge from asia to alaska.. while other paleontologists (small few) counter this that all were born in north america and crossed the berring strait bridge from alaska to Asia (which alot of natives like better lol) but of course would also work for everyone else. :P Who knows.

But when identifying, we just go by the phenotype or strand of homo sapiens known as Native Americans.

Gibaholic
07-08-2006, 02:26 PM
well, it's not bad in terms of respect. Atleast it's not like the RV Winnebago.

garland81
07-08-2006, 02:32 PM
Lol. I like your signature Gibaholic. Gotta remember that one.

StainedCheeks
07-08-2006, 02:32 PM
its cultural, like origanal residents. some cultures thrived on stealing and takeing while others survived by giveing and execpting the earth as our owner. your original culture might have been mixed by the vast amounts of people running from plunders. history hasent changed much, it is still happening today. tousands of people have to leave thier original residency to exscape the greed of war. off topic now but one of the most uneducated thing i have ever heard someone say is that war is used to control the worlds population. this remark is scary to think about. then to get the masses of a superpower to think like that is very bad. i tell my kids there is no monsters, but at the same time i tell them that some people think like monsters. we are all native earthlings and we each have the right to think for ourselfs, thats a gift but greed has made it evil. most of the planet is starving right now, what can we do? realize our mistakes. peace..

x2pixel
07-08-2006, 02:33 PM
I came across this game yesterday when I was bored and browsing through the Xbox Live Marketplace. Downloaded the demo and was really excited to see not only an Indian, but a Cherokee (I am Cherokee if you haven't guessed by my username :) ) as the "hero". Naturally my first thought was, "ok, what'd they screw up." Let's face it, the entertainment industry doesn't have a good track record when it comes to showing the real face of Indian people.
..snip...


brilliant post. Some very interesting POV, and I learnt some very interesting stuff. Thanks :)

edit: and having read through the rest, wow, some great discussion.

Who would've thought it from a FPS forum ;) :)

Gatinater
07-08-2006, 03:21 PM
I assumed that was the gist Garland. They might see it that way, but it's a personal belief which is unintentionally insulting. It suggests white people don't belong here because they weren't chosen, but evolution has shown us that there is no such thing as chosen people.

We don't choose who we are or where we come from. We share genes with our ancestors and that's all we share. Nothing from their past has anything to do with us.

It's not far from throwing crayons at each other while shouting "I was here first, be.. cau..se some guy I'm related was supposedly here before some white guy".

So do they also hang on to all of the atrocitys of their ancestors and share those by blood too? Or is it just the stuff they particularly care for. Like their ancestors being here first?

It's funny when you analyze all of these things, because white people are scrutinized yet we didn't even set the conditions to create a racial conflict.

Gideon
07-08-2006, 03:28 PM
its cultural, like origanal residents. some cultures thrived on stealing and takeing while others survived by giveing and execpting the earth as our owner. your original culture might have been mixed by the vast amounts of people running from plunders. history hasent changed much, it is still happening today. tousands of people have to leave thier original residency to exscape the greed of war. off topic now but one of the most uneducated thing i have ever heard someone say is that war is used to control the worlds population. this remark is scary to think about. then to get the masses of a superpower to think like that is very bad. i tell my kids there is no monsters, but at the same time i tell them that some people think like monsters. we are all native earthlings and we each have the right to think for ourselfs, thats a gift but greed has made it evil. most of the planet is starving right now, what can we do? realize our mistakes. peace..

The indians came over the bearing straights from russia, so.... If there were any 'Original residents' they're long gone.

WVa Cherokee
07-08-2006, 04:50 PM
Before we start saying who came from where and stating it as a fact, it needs to be pointed out that it is all about belief. Science, like religion, is a belief system of sorts. Both seek to explain the universe and our place in it. Either you believe in your chosen religion or you don't. Either you believe in evolution or you don't. No one can say with absolute certainty that their point of view is correct. Scientists cannot prove evolution any more than Christians can prove that their theology is correct. It is all about perspective. What people do is find a "belief system" that makes the most sense to them and follows it.

When it starts to get murky is when someone talks enough about, say the evolutionary theory, they build a series of conclusions built on top of one another and it becomes so familiar to them that they somehow move from the realm of theory to fact within their own minds. The same goes for a religion like Christianity. When questioned, all Christians I have spoken to say it comes down to faith. Yet it is this "faith" (not fact) that leads many of them to create laws that affect others (such as gay marriage, etc). Again they move from belief to the realm of fact and then tell others there is no other alternative.

Science, in some areas, is the same way. Again, let's look at human origins. All we have to go on is theory, a handful of partial skeletons and a dating system that seems to have quite a bit of flaws. People take classes to learn these theories but never really examine them critically. They accept these theories as fact and regurgitate what they learned by rote and tell others what science "knows". These theories may be correct...then again they may not. And if conclusion on top of conclusion is made on an initial premise that may be wrong, then that entire line of thought (or a great deal of it).

That said, Indian migration to the Americas circa 12,000 years ago is a theory, not a fact. There is evidence of a much longer human occupation in the Americas (dates set as far back as 750,000 years have been found). It is unfortunate that any evidence collected that doesn't fit the current theory is conveniently labeled as anomalous and set aside whereas evidence that fits the theory is highlighted. One would think that contradictary evidence would cause most scientists to rethink their theories. Unfortunately being a "problem child" in the scientific community can often mean ruining your career so few take a stand.

Indeed, theories showing human origins in the Americas (not Africa) have been put forth (and naturally cast aside). How's that for the "Native American" semantic debate hehe.

Just recently have anthropologists began to include Indian oral traditions to their view of the origins of Indian people. Things are starting to be looked at in a different way.

Gatinater
07-08-2006, 05:45 PM
Let me replace evolution with a synonym that won't be assumed to be related to science. I didn't say scientific evolution, but instead of evolution I'll say.. development or progress.

Nashoba
07-08-2006, 06:17 PM
Let me replace evolution with a synonym that won't be assumed to be related to science. I didn't say scientific evolution, but instead of evolution I'll say.. development or progress.
That, my friend is another set of muddy phrases. Development or progress...these are both loaded terms based on cultural values and context.

Is technology advancement? From the eyes of modern man, maybe...but it depends on where the emphasis of your values lay. If you share a humanocentric world view, then modern medicine, prolonging the life span and anything else that may help mankind to stay on top is seen as progress regardless of the consequences to the environment and the rest of life on the planet.

I'm just as guilty, I want my video games, cars, and all the other trappings of modern Human existence. But I mourn the loss of the village, of people helping people, shared responsibility, tradition etc. No it wasn't all fluffy bunnies and pancakes, with infighting, famine, disease, lack of TP :D and such, but the point is all gain comes with loss. The question is: Is what we have gained worth what we have lost?

That question can only be defined from a cultural standpoint, and your answer will be whether you have gained more than you have lost and "made progress" or "developed"

Just like science and religion, progress is only seen through the lense of faith or belief. You believe in evolution or not, you believe in your version of religion or not, and you believe in your view of progress or not.

That's what makes intercultural discussion so fascinating, challenging and frought with traps which can cause injured pride or feelings and lead to misunderstandings.

garland81
07-08-2006, 07:18 PM
To Gatinater: *shrugs* Really depends on how you interpret it. Someone else could see it another way. I don't believe natives ever used the words 'chosen people' for they would be concerned for those who are 'unchosen' for they believe choosing between people spawns jealousy, hate, envy, desire from those unchosen. I believe the settlers belonging here or not doesn't really matter anymore, their descendants are here now in their stead and its very dishonorable to cast blame towards them for something their ancestors were apart of and not them themselves.

To Gideon: "Bering Strait" bridge. :P and some other scientists believe people spawned from North America and crossed the bridge to Asia. I mentioned both theories earlier.

To WVa/Nashoba: :P interesting posts. Though I did read of a christian paleontologist (yes its weird, religion and science combining :P) who found living tissue on a dinosaur bone. She wondered about the smell of dino bones every time she saw them and found one day organisms living in the bone marrow which is reviving back to life. She theorized that dinosaurs may have lived earlier than a million years ago which sparked major controversy from some of the hardcore christian genises believers (cant remember the real term). She was caught in the middle and I dont believe any one of them was taking her side. Other scientists scowled her idea and other christian genises believers (whom believe earth was created some 8000 years ago) ranted at her because she didn't believe the things they did.

Gatinater
07-08-2006, 07:39 PM
Progress is not about technology or what anyone has.. the world doesn't see a chosen group. Somone always gets further ahead than someone else. It's not a result of faith or chosen heritage or race or mystical beliefs... it's just circumstances.

There is no way you can deny evolution. First you have nothing, then you get a job, you earn money, you get a home and so on. Each time you progress. You have evolved from having nothing to having shelter and the money to be able to trade for the things you need. You go through evolutions. Where I come from things didn't fall out of the sky, but I guess if I chose to believe it happend that way.. it did. Evolution contributes to everything. To say you don't believe in progress means you don't believe anything ever changes.

A person could choose to believe they didn't evolve from a child to an adult, but it happened. Maybe not in their delusional mind, but we know they did.

Sure from what you're suggesting I could choose to believe anything. No matter how absurd it might be. I could choose to believe jumping into a pit of spikes will bring me candy, but for some bizarre reason.. I don't believe it to be possible.

Sure a person could shove their fingers in their ears and close their eyes, but choosing to ignore and not believe what is evident is just an evasion of reallity. You can't escape evidence.. it's everywhere. I could choose to believe the tread marks on the road aren't from car tires, it's too obvious to deny, but if I really wanted I could choose not to believe it. Maybe not, that would be hard.

To put it simply.. is diminishing in numbers progress? Evolution has left evidence that shows us the next stage is extinction. Point is.. walking backwards is not progress.

I studied religion, so hear me when I say there is a difference between enlightenment and lunacy. I'm not religious because it's too fanciful for my mind. I don't choose to believe just anything. Logic tells me what to believe.

SuicideRUN
07-08-2006, 07:53 PM
OK first of all WVa Cherokee, evolution is a theory based on the facts. It drives me crazy when I hear people say the jury is still out on evolution. I would love for you to explain dinosaurs, since you don't belive in evolution. Do you think dinosaurs and man lived together? Like the Flintstones? Or are you one of these religious extremist that think dinosaur bones were put here by God to test our faith? There is proof of evolution, like why snakes have remnant of legs in their skeletal structure. The fact is there in ZERO proof in God, it's all based on faith. Hopefully a few hundred years from now, humanity will look back on christianity and other religions the way we look back at those who worshipped the sun or a volcano. As primitive people who used superstition to explain what they didn't understand. To quote Stendhal, "All religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few."

garland81
07-08-2006, 08:17 PM
and the weapons are out. Look out.

garland81
07-08-2006, 08:35 PM
Btw, the facts of evolution have been in serious question in that story about the christian paleontologist i mentioned earlier, especially when its impossible to have living tissue growing in a dinosaur bone's marrow. Just because you learn facts doesn't mean the facts can't change when contradictory evidence surfaces. You can have all the facts you want but its weither you believe those facts or not and that's the point of what Nashoba said.

It's like a crime scene investigation, they gather all the evidence of what they believe may have happened and base their judgement on that. Though, you can take the same explanation and expose another situation that also may have happened that contradicts the first story. Whatever is the most likeliest becomes the general concensus.

And about Stendhal's quote, there's a difference between a religion and a way of life and unfortunately his quote does not apply correctly to certain cultures.. such as Taoism.

Daewoodrow
07-08-2006, 08:45 PM
Uh, way to read. Nowhere did I say that you believed white people couldn't be trusted. I did not misquote you either. You did,in fact, say what I quoted. I believe you meant I had taken what you said out of context. I'd like you to point out the part of my previous post where I said you were a bad person and you didn't trust white people. Then I'd feel you had the right to say someone had a lower intelligence than yourself.

I merely commented on what you said, which is allowed. This is a public forum, afterall.

Let me first make it clear that at no point did I suggest I believed you to be of lower intelligence than me. I said I wished for somebody of higher intelligence than you to respond, since you twisted the meaning of what I said.

And yes, I should have said "quoted out of context" rather than "misquoted". A rookie mistake on my part.

Also, I did not state that you accused me of saying I don't trust white people. Kudos on the double twist there, by the way.

Your sarcastic comment ("Yeah, that's right. Distrusting an entire race based on the actions of some people of said race is the way we can beat racism!")

implies that the members of other races who distrust white people are unjust, and also that they are prejudiced, which in turn makes them racist.

I then stated that you [took my quote out of context], as I was saying that they have good reason to distrust white people and be suspicious of white racism, despite it being wrong to assume all white people are racist. Thus you had bypassed my preconclusion, and the entire point of my post, simply to take one erroneous quote and use it to make those people the enemy here.

And nice try with the whole "freedom of speech" jibe at the end there. It only works on those obsessed with the American constitutions, and i'm British. Naturally I beleive you are perfectly within right to say whatever you like, but I also have the right to rubbish it if you use that right to turn my meanings around.

Nashoba
07-08-2006, 08:51 PM
I'm about done with one-sided arguments. Please read posts thouroughly and carefully before flying off at the keybord:

OK first of all WVa Cherokee, evolution is a theory based on the facts. It drives me crazy when I hear people say the jury is still out on evolution. I would love for you to explain dinosaurs, since you don't belive in evolution. WVA used evolution as an example, he never once claimed to not believe in it. Why you assumed this, I have no idea, but even if he doesn't believe in it, that is his choice and no need to be aggressive in your post. If he doesn't believe or does...who cares...it's his choice.

Progress is not about technology or what anyone has.. the world doesn't see a chosen group. Somone always gets further ahead than someone else. It's not a result of faith or chosen heritage or race or mystical beliefs... it's just circumstances. Technology was used as an example of what is percieved in the modern mind as progress...it was used to illustrate a point...the point being that the perception of progress of one culture over another is subjective and depends on the lense of the culture. Secondly, where do you keep getting this concept of "chosen" no one mentioned it here and it is not a native belief in my experience.

There is no way you can deny evolution. First you have nothing, then you get a job, you earn money, you get a home and so on. Each time you progress. You have evolved from having nothing to having shelter and the money to be able to trade for the things you need. You go through evolutions. Where I come from things didn't fall out of the sky, but I guess if I chose to believe it happend that way.. it did. Evolution contributes to everything. To say you don't believe in progress means you don't believe anything ever changes. I don't recall denying evolution nor do I recall saying I didn't believe in progress...agin try and read a post before you type don't just react...to have an intelligent 2 way discussion, you must take the time to read, and attempt to understand the salient points a person is attempting to make and not just make rapid assuptions that had nothing to do with the original posting you are reacting to.

Sure from what you're suggesting I could choose to believe anything. No matter how absurd it might be. I could choose to believe jumping into a pit of spikes will bring me candy, but for some bizarre reason.. I don't believe it to be possible. You have missed the point entirely. Reread the post with an open mind instead of seeing what you think is there and is not. This comment doesn't even remotely relate to the concepts that were discussed. Try again.


To put it simply.. is diminishing in numbers progress? Evolution has left evidence that shows us the next stage is extinction. Point is.. walking backwards is not progress. I hope you are not refering to what I think you are refering to with the diminishing in numbers comment....if you are, I think any further discussion would be over. Please calrify that statement, I don't want to make an erroneous assumption :)

I studied religion, so hear me when I say there is a difference between enlightenment and lunacy. I'm not religious because it's too fanciful for my mind. I don't choose to believe just anything. Logic tells me what to believe. Good for you...now please try studying reading comprehension, then let's talk. ;) :) (BTW...that Last comment is a tongue in cheek attempt at levity...don't take it as a serious attck...just want to clarify)

garland81
07-08-2006, 08:58 PM
.... lol

WVa Cherokee
07-08-2006, 09:04 PM
I never said I didn't believe in evolution. Indeed, there is much about it that I agree with. My point is that it is still a theory which may or may not be accurate. I don't deny it as a whole but I also don't proclaim with absolute certainty that it is THE answer to our origins here. Maybe it is...but I don't know. I wasn't here then and neither was anyone else.

The issue here is evidence versus fact. We find evidence and we, as imperfect humans, interpret that evidence and come to conclusions based on our worldview/culture perspectives, etc. Some conclusions I agree with, others I don't. It makes no sense to me to say what DID happen based on my own (or another's) interpretation of a few scratch marks on a fossil that is thousands or millions of years old. I can say what I THINK happened but not with absolute certainty what DID happen. You understand?

Showing an Indian perspective here, I noticed that someone was quick to put me in the "Christian" category when I am not a Christian. In fact, my tribal beliefs are more in tune with science than you might believe. Cause and effect, the scientific method, harmony/balance etc are all part of Indian philosophy in some shape or form. It is cliche, I know, but the phrase "we are all related" does have real meaning to Indian people. Everything is related. Everything must remain in balance. However these values are expressed in our cultural concepts are sometimes things get lost in translation. There is no distinction between humans and animals in the Indian view. Humans are two-legged, there are winged ones, four-legged, etc. Animals can communicate (IE speak) just the way we can to each other. Balance in the world is necessary...which Western society is beginning to understand concerning global emissions and the like. If you took an Indian person from 500 years ago and patiently explained to him/her that they evolved from "lower" (notice the quotes) life forms, I am sure it would make perfect sense to them given their worldview and being a part of nature rather than separate from it (as with Christianity).

So you see, my position on evolution isn't one of disbelief per se, but one of humbleness to say "I wasn't there so I can't be 100% sure." There is much about evolution I find compelling...but I think a lot still needs worked out. Indeed, my chosen field is paleo-archeology. And from an Indian perspective, that means listening to old stories and finding clues that science has uncovered. I have come across stories about an animal that sounds very much to me like a stegosaurus. I have heard about Indian people a few hundred years ago when they first saw elephants in circuses they recalled hearing stories about hairy versions of those elephants. And based upon those stories they were remembering being told, some even were afraid that those elephants would go on a rampage and start tearing stuff up.

Personally, I think humans have been here on earth much longer than even mainstream science would have us believe. There are too many "anomalous" dates in my view. When/how did we come about? We can only guess based on evidence...and that doesn't make it a fact. Still, we try to do our best don't we?

Here is something to make you think. Why do snakes have remnants of legs? How do we know they are remnants? How do we know they aren't beginnings of legs? Legs have to evolve as well as de-evolve don't they :).

Also from my "humble" perspective where I don't presume to have it all "figured out", I recognize the distinct possibility that there is more to existence than what modern Western science has shown us so far. Just as I can't say with absolute certainty what happened scientifically in the remote past, I also can't (and won't) say what may or may not exist supernaturally. To me that is arrogance to the point of bordering on close-mindedness and stupidity. Especially considering our limited perception of the universe based on our 5 senses.

SuicideRUN
07-08-2006, 09:38 PM
Here is something to make you think. Why do snakes have remnants of legs? How do we know they are remnants? How do we know they aren't beginnings of legs? Legs have to evolve as well as de-evolve don't they :).

Actually we know they are remnants by the life the snake has now. The way they move would be hampered if they grew legs. Evolution is about transforming into something better not worse, and by better I mean efficient. The fossils of snakes also shows their leg spur is getting smaller, not growing. But regardly of all that. It proves they are evolving.

garland81
07-08-2006, 09:44 PM
Some of the Mi'Q Macs Elders understood the portions of the eco-system (okay here we go again lol). They knew if they killed too many moose they wouldn't have enough to go around the next year. Other accounts of cree elders grew concerns of pesticides on mosquitoes noting that they are the food source for some river fish and that they were necessary.

There is alot of teachings directly related to science itself like the life cycle. First, we were all nutrients in the ground that plants harvested from the soil or worms had eaten whom birds ate.. or a particle in a leaf a deer ate and all of these parts came from all over the place gathering together into your mother's womb then you are born, live, then later die.. and all your body parts decomposes and returns to the soil and scatter all over the world again. First spawning from the earth, then returning to the earth in a never ending cycle.

Oh and there were also records of native legends that the Norsemen weren't also the first europeans that came to america. There was even a story I think came from the Bella Coola that an oriental person (it was assumed he was oriental) crossed the bering strait visited the natives then went back home.

Gatinater
07-08-2006, 09:52 PM
You mean mind games.

Evidence is what it is.. evident. We all leave it everywhere we go. I can match your skin and hair fibers, your blood, your saliva, sweat and other body fluids to you. Along with fibers from your clothing.

The only way I can match it though is if I suspect you of being there. So I collect samples and compare the. If they match I wouldn't choose to believe you were there. I would know you were there.

I never mentioned anything regarding theoretical science. Everything Evolves. Earlier today it was humid, but the day EVOLVED into a cool night.

Yes what we refer to as dinasaurs did exist, but what they actually looked like and all of that good stuff is a guess, and educated case. No one has any idea what they looked like or how they behaved since no one has seen them. It's a lot of guess.

If you wish to discuss evolution from one mammal to the next instead of present day then I guess we could do that. For what reason I don't know. I never thought of it as evolving directly from another form. More like cells altering themselves to improve or create a creature for a specific function. And through this we may have evolved from a completely different form initially.

Ever hear of the expression "Life Finds a way" ?

I mean times are changing Clans are among the few and it won't be much longer before we all share the same blood.

garland81
07-08-2006, 10:18 PM
Lawyers proved evidence can be fabricated in court. Evidence being there doesn't always mean it was there to begin with. Perhaps the samples you collected were planted there to distort the truth.

But when it comes to paleontology, time also can distort the truth like the story of the Bracchiosaurus.. and the fact they only found one and eventually was disproved to be a real dinosaur because it was a combination of dead brontosaurus and an allisaurus (was it an allisaurus that survives under water?)

WVa Cherokee
07-08-2006, 10:40 PM
What needs to be pointed out here is that there is a difference between evidence like DNA evidence and what may or may not be scrapes on what may or may not be a stone tool. One is pretty conclusive while the other is not.

If something is hampered by legs, how do legs evolve in the first place? Does it HAVE to be done in the ocean/water first :).

garland81
07-08-2006, 11:32 PM
Btw.. for those who've been viewing these posts for native material lately, any of you want some links or book referrals? (Really wished RunningDeer kept his site up, it was the best place i found for doing some research)

StainedCheeks
07-08-2006, 11:39 PM
mabey someday all people will be able to go into orbit and have a good look out there. seeing all stars other planets and such, then looking back to our tiny world. believing in a great spirit would be ur first thought. every breath u take would be from the great spirit. our planet is small compared to the explosions that are happening out there. and there is evidence of a god all around you everywhere. the great spirit is even cool enough to let us have endless thoughts on the subject. some say that in the future they will look down on beliefs, that would be another total domination society, which only has proven to bring death and murder. if you were to go into orbit, you would come back with an open mind because you would realize that your life is just a shadow passing by. Make the most of it not by thinking your so cool but rather were so cool. look at the human hand, its awwsumness, how did the universe create such a thing? Or you could look at it in this manner, the universe dose have sexualy ogans and we the humanoids are them. our brains are smart enough the smash atoms, which causes the whole thing over again, a million times over again, and to know all this and to still make missiles to hurt eachother is wrong. But I forgot, the ones in controll making the weapons dont know all this, all they know is materieal things. So it is there lives that pass by as a shadow. but thier fingerprints are poison.

Nashoba
07-08-2006, 11:44 PM
Yeah garland shoot me some links...i'm always up for more info since all I know is from how I and my family and the families around us lived, and what research I have done outside of that.

Gatinater
07-08-2006, 11:50 PM
Tampering is unlikely. Maybe on TV, but not in reality. There is suspects and there is witnesses and there is evidence. Detectives already know who did it or have a good of who did. if they have the correct suspects. Persuing the evidence is just proof to convince a jury.

If someone tampered with it there would be evidence of that. The way to get around that would be if someone in the legal system is responsible for it and covers it up. I know there is corruption but that doesn't change the fact that the evidence is there.

It's there and it will always be there, but we can't always control who might destroy or tamper with it in hopes to hide it.

If you have enough money you can make any evidence disappear. That's what all governments and legal systems are based on. Money.

SuicideRUN
07-08-2006, 11:53 PM
If something is hampered by legs, how do legs evolve in the first place? Does it HAVE to be done in the ocean/water first :).

Evolution happens out of necessity, like the sharks of today have barely evolved in millions of years because they bodies are nearly perfect for their environment and prey. At one point in it's evolution, snakes were like other reptiles, but do to environmental changes having legs wasn't as important as flexibility, so over time they evolved into a more effective hunter. Those that adapted survived, and those that didn't went extinct.

There's a type of fly in Hawaii that no longer has wings. Most of it's predators have gone extinct and it's need to fly is no longer a priority. Ever wonder why we have an appendix? Scientists believe it was an organ to help us digest raw meat. But since the discovery of fire, humans rarely eat meat raw, so over time the appendix has stop working, and oneday we won't be born with one at all.

garland81
07-08-2006, 11:54 PM
http://www.runningdeerslonghouse.com/ (it's never up anymore.. but if it does its there lol)

http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/ (for some nice lores and quotes)
http://www.harges.net/ (some guy's site. has misc stuff)
http://www.nativeamericanlinks.com/links.html (and a bunch of links)

Two books of note:
"Return to the Teachings" by Rupert Ross (big insight on the healing circle and native heritage.. this book was my personal eye-opener)
and "I have lived here since the World began" by Arthur J. Ray (mostly canadian native history, other parts are of law and land claims, but a few chapters talk about multiple first encounters which is a very intriguing read)

That's all I got for now :P

WVa Cherokee
07-09-2006, 12:07 AM
You're missing the point SuicideRUN. Everything you mention, you are automatically locked into the idea that the physical examples of evolution (tiny legs on snakes, appendix, etc) are useless and therefore fading. Where are the examples of emerging appendages, organs, etc? I know full well the theory of evolution (paleo-archeology here remember?). Evolution isn't just about losing things but also gaining them wouldn't you agree? So how do we know which is which? This is one of those situations where interpretation, whether right or wrong, is done. This is where belief emerges in science.

From what I have always been told, the Creator ("Great Spirit" if you will) is the universe. From this perspective, you can see why I (I won't go so far to say this applies to every tribe's beliefs), and others from this point of view, wouldn't balk at the idea of evolution. Again, one of the core philosophies is "we are all related". What people (scientists mainly) can't seem to agree on sometimes is HOW we evolved :). So again from this perspective, it would make no difference if I went into space and experienced the "vastness"...my philosophy/theology already encompasses the universe. The earth is where we were formed, one way or another. We are created from the materials found here and Indians have long understood that we go back to the earth when we die. This is why the earth is referred to as Mother Earth and depending on your tribal perspective, there is a Father Sky or Father Sun. We recognize that this is where we come from and there are certain elements out there that take care of us. This is also why balance is also at the core of our belief system. We are taken care of by Mother Earth, we therefore treat Mother Earth with reverence, maintain balance, don't despoil her, etc.

Laz
07-09-2006, 12:12 AM
Let me first make it clear that at no point did I suggest I believed you to be of lower intelligence than me. I said I wished for somebody of higher intelligence than you to respond, since you twisted the meaning of what I said.

You still interpreted what I said as an attack, when it was not. Like I stated earlier, this is a public forum. We joke around with each other here(that's what I was getting at previously. I wasn't using 'freedom of speech'). It's a light-hearted enviroment here at the 3DR forums.

Your sarcastic comment implies that the members of other races who distrust white people are unjust, and also that they are prejudiced, which in turn makes them racist.

So wait, it's ok for a certain race to dislike the white race because of past events? That DOESN'T make them racist? Uh, Ok.


I'm curious, why did you take my original comment so harshly?

SuicideRUN
07-09-2006, 12:59 AM
You're missing the point SuicideRUN. Everything you mention, you are automatically locked into the idea that the physical examples of evolution (tiny legs on snakes, appendix, etc) are useless and therefore fading. Where are the examples of emerging appendages, organs, etc? I know full well the theory of evolution (paleo-archeology here remember?). Evolution isn't just about losing things but also gaining them wouldn't you agree? So how do we know which is which? This is one of those situations where interpretation, whether right or wrong, is done. This is where belief emerges in science.

You want an example of a new part gained? Ok how about the hemipenis on female hyena and some female snakes. Non functional now, but maybe in a hundred years it will work.

StainedCheeks
07-09-2006, 01:36 AM
the biggest advancement in evalution will be when the world will be free from war mongers and the true space age can blossom. a spiritual space age. corporations making tanks and oil coast to move entire city sized convoys are the biggest waste. war is old men con artist talking and young people dieing. so solve this problem suicide run and you may be our new leader.

SuicideRUN
07-09-2006, 02:08 AM
the biggest advancement in evalution will be when the world will be free from war mongers and the true space age can blossom. a spiritual space age. corporations making tanks and oil coast to move entire city sized convoys are the biggest waste. war is old men con artist talking and young people dieing. so solve this problem suicide run and you may be our new leader.

Only one way to stop wars on this planet. Kill all the humans. We are violent by nature, and that isn't gonna change anytime soon.

StainedCheeks
07-09-2006, 04:10 AM
gee, hope nobody read that!

Gatinater
07-09-2006, 09:34 AM
It's more complex than that. Sure we are violent by nature. I myself am a very violent, tempemental and excitable person, but I am disciplined . And if I can't fix something I'm not going to intentionally break it.

I don't think wars are fought because people are violent. More like because one side wants it one way and the another way. So when reasoning breaks down and an agreement can't be made the only option is force.

It's just the way things are. Defiance leads to violence. If communication can't fix the problem then you have to get rid of the problem. You can't expect all people in this world to behave. Many of them are rogue. So it's either detain or eliminate those people.

The world lacks strict policy, people forget it's easiest to just keep things simple. Instead they complicate matters and just tie everthing up.

I figure the best solution for the border would be to put a mile wide border of land mines along the Border. Easy. With a clear message. "STAY THE **** OUT!!" But people are like what if someone gets hurt? I say Uh.. to bad. That's why electric fences exist. If you don't wish to get zapped then stay off it. Same with land mines. If you don't wish to get your legs blown off and guts blown then don't tread through the field.

his current war could have been handled differently in a much more effecient manner. How can we not understand guerrilla warfare? It's a rich part of American history. Americans used guerrilla warfare to win wars of the past. America forfeited wars in the past, due to guerrilla warfare.

Inhumane? Brutal? ??? Wha?? Inhumanity and brutality is the essance of war. The general public should not be allowed to see war. Clearly they don't understand it.

No such thing as fair fight and no such thing as a prisoner. You're either good for information or your just useless baggage. War is an eye for an eye affair. Doesn't matter if your subdued or not, because if your a confirmed threat and have no useful information you are going in a body bag.
Don't like the rules? Don't play the game.

It's the essence of war. A soldier's job is the object and to do whatever is necessary to complete it. Do or die, accept death before defeat. We only live in the monent and we are not gonna live forever. Politics are a soldiers enemy.

War is always terrorism versus resistance. War starts because someone is always terrorizing someone else. So terror is really why we have war,

garland81
07-09-2006, 10:12 AM
Humans are "sometimes" violent by nature (predatory instincts).. but of course the other three basic natures are also forgotten by the dude as well. Here's the four basic chemical emotions: anger, fear, happiness, love. Remember.. we are omnivorous, not just carnivores. Plus, we mate and reproduce and defend the young and teach the young survival skills.

And judging by the above post.. wars are started by stubborn, aggressive mentality, just like the saying "fight for what you want" or "fight for this cause" and always "fight fight fight". See a pattern?

d3ad connection
07-09-2006, 10:21 AM
I don't see how this discussion is related to Prey.

garland81
07-09-2006, 11:05 AM
It started off related to Prey but broke down into sub-topics.

Prey --> Natives --> Racism --> Word Context
Prey --> Heritage --> Other Heritages/Religions/Way of Lives --> Comparisons
Prey --> Teachings --> Science v Religion --> Evolution

And so on, so forth..

Gatinater
07-09-2006, 11:33 AM
It's not anymore.

Sometimes you just have to fight. When your backed into a corner and they have taken away your options the only thing left to do is fight.

You can't agree on something then just break the rules, do what you want and expect peace. Defiant people don't break one rule then stop. They keep testing their bounds. If you don't stomp on the viper right away or cut it's head off before it can grow the problem becomes worse. The longer you wait the longer they have to fortify themselves.

I just figure since we are so set on killing each other we should just nuke everything and get it over with. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Technology will be our extinction.

The people who had the intellect to invent it over looked one thing. Mankind in general isn't responsible or intelligent enough to be given access or the knowledge of such things. We are smart in many ways, but when it comes to common sense we are too stupid for our own good. I won't ever share anything I know about combustion, cumbustable chemicals or substance with anyone who doesn't need to know, because of the inherent danger. Plus explosives are easy to make. So I figure if that can't figure it on their own then they don't have much of a brain to begin with and can't be trusted with the knowledge.

It's clear at the rate nations are allowing industrys to destroy the enviorment and resources that they don't care because they won't be here when it gets worse. Selfish attitude towards the world and future generations.

Geronimo
07-09-2006, 01:52 PM
My, my how this thread has grown since I've been away.

Myself I'm white with a lil Metis mixed in from long ago. I spent a lot of time living in an Native township when I was young. I started this thread because I was curious what Native peoples thought of the game. Mainly because Natives so rarely get any kind of representation in various entertainment mediums on any kind of noticeable scale. The few exceptions tend to put Natives in a historical dated context, though I have seen Native people playing roles in film and television not based purely on race, as well there are a few good movies about Natives in a more modern context (Dance me Outside comes to mind).

One of the things that first impressed me about Prey was that from what I knew it was the first big video game centered around a Native character. Anywho, I'm glad this thread has been as informative as it has. On a side note someone mentioned that a lot of Native culture is being lost to time. Languages are no longer spoken and tribal beliefs are all but forgotten. Which is sad because all cultures contribute something to humanity on a whole. Some of the best stories I ever herd were Native American, stories that had been passed down through the generations for hundreds of years.

P.S. Whoever is sending out frybread add me to the list. I haven't had it in years. :D

WVa Cherokee
07-09-2006, 02:07 PM
I would agree that humans are violent by nature but are also caring. I also think that culture has a great deal to do with destroying the environment. This is sort of a plug for pre-contact Indian people (not so much Indian people today due to assimilation) as well as tribal peoples (and even some ancient Asian peoples) around the world.

When your people's worldview is revering Mother Earth and everything you do, down to hunting, eating, travelling, etc, all contains rituals, traditions, what have you, that reflect this view. Some tribes would not even farm because to them it would be liking cutting open their mother's breast. I read recently about ancient Asians who would actually limit their steps every day to limit the impact on the earth.

To be honest, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but I do think it may be the Christian mentality that may be a large reason for lack of respect for the environment. Where various tribal peoples feel that they are a part of nature, Christians believe they are in charge of nature, must control it, etc. It is a small wonder that the Western mentality doesn't balk so easily at environmental issues. Indeed, it may have been this disregard for the environment that allowed the Western world to develop technology. If you are a tribal people trying to maintain the "status quo" (IE balance) then you don't go above and beyond to make environment-impacting technologies. It isn't that they aren't capable of it, they just don't see a good enough reason to.

This is a true scenario. I had a VERY devoted born-again Christian tell me that he personally wasn't worried about the environment because with Jesus coming any day now, why worry? Wow. I know this doesn't apply to all Christians of course but still, how many have that mentality? It is kind of scary if you ask me.

Unfortunately many Indian people in today's American society have little to no reverence for the earth. For many, their assimilation has been complete. Many speak of it of course, but most do little to nothing about it :(. I put myself in this category at times. It is unfortunate that I can't live in "harmony" and still survive. I MUST have a job. I MUST have a car. Still, I try to do what I can in the way of recycling, not being wasteful, etc.

WVa Cherokee
07-09-2006, 02:09 PM
It is unfortunate that languages are dying out. My wife's tribe only has a handful of speakers still alive...all elderly. My tribe has upwards of around 8000-ish speakers so we are fortunate in that regard and whenever I want to be around speakers, I can. Other tribes are not so fortunate. Their languages are gone forever. Language is the cornerstone of culture too :(.

Otto von Keisinger
07-09-2006, 03:26 PM
When your people's worldview is revering Mother Earth and everything you do, down to hunting, eating, travelling, etc, all contains rituals, traditions, what have you, that reflect this view. Some tribes would not even farm because to them it would be liking cutting open their mother's breast. I read recently about ancient Asians who would actually limit their steps every day to limit the impact on the earth.

To be honest, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but I do think it may be the Christian mentality that may be a large reason for lack of respect for the environment. Where various tribal peoples feel that they are a part of nature, Christians believe they are in charge of nature, must control it, etc. It is a small wonder that the Western mentality doesn't balk so easily at environmental issues. Indeed, it may have been this disregard for the environment that allowed the Western world to develop technology. If you are a tribal people trying to maintain the "status quo" (IE balance) then you don't go above and beyond to make environment-impacting technologies. It isn't that they aren't capable of it, they just don't see a good enough reason to.

This is a true scenario. I had a VERY devoted born-again Christian tell me that he personally wasn't worried about the environment because with Jesus coming any day now, why worry? Wow. I know this doesn't apply to all Christians of course but still, how many have that mentality? It is kind of scary if you ask me.
It's not how many, it's who. Specifically, it seems that the entirety of the Bush Administration believes that the second coming is close, despite that very prediction having been around since the Revelations was written!

Unfortunately many Indian people in today's American society have little to no reverence for the earth. For many, their assimilation has been complete. Many speak of it of course, but most do little to nothing about it :(. I put myself in this category at times. It is unfortunate that I can't live in "harmony" and still survive. I MUST have a job. I MUST have a car. Still, I try to do what I can in the way of recycling, not being wasteful, etc.
Technology does not have to be high-impact to be useful. Just look at solar panels or wind power, hell, even fission power, as compared to coal, oil or natural gas.

Geronimo
07-09-2006, 03:47 PM
On a side note...

As I mentioned I spent part of my youth in a Native township (Faust, Alberta). We didn't have much in the way of modern toys. Certainly no video games. Yet we weren't bored, we didn't feel like we were missing out in any fun. We all played together, tromped around in the woods and the playgrounds. I bring this up because I don't really feel modern technology has really enhanced life for us. I think modern socities have become so accostom to all the gadjets and what not that they can't imagine happiness without them. Well I know I was happy as a kid without all that stuff and I think there is something to be said with living a simplier life in harmony with nature.

Having said that I'm so glad my graphic card can handle Prey in high graphics mode at a decent framerate :D .

Nessus
07-09-2006, 03:55 PM
To be honest, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but I do think it may be the Christian mentality that may be a large reason for lack of respect for the environment.

That would make sense, The Europeans themselves were a nature worshipping group of tribes, what today we call the pagans. When Constantine declared Christianity the official religion in 325, Rome went about slaying and enslaving all who tried to hold on to to the old ways. That's almost entirely lost to Modern Western culture these days, replaced by a set of strange and contradictory fairy tales. You can see the old ways creeping through in how Christianity is practiced with saints taking the place of our old polytheistic impulses but Europeans will be spiritually lost as long as Christianity dominates, only a religion based on the natural world can restore the healthy impulses.

WVa Cherokee
07-09-2006, 03:56 PM
You are right. Some tribes still have no power lines over their towns. They say they interfere with their ceremonial grounds. So in some areas, all houses have their own individual solar panels. I believe the Comanche tribe (I could be mistaken) is actively looking into wind power. Yes these technologies have a lower impact, but in order for us to discover them, we had to develop the lesser, "crude" technologies that have put us in the situation that we are in now. What is truly sad is that one of the main reasons why these more environmentally friendly technologies haven't really taken is economics :(. People/corporations often would rather make quick money now rather than invest in the future.

StainedCheeks
07-10-2006, 10:59 AM
you guys are great, i am a design consultant for permanent agriculture or "permaculture" it is about breaking down everything to its last posible useage. setting up sustainable human enviroments and the study of plants and how certain ones benifit from eachother. like finding natural enemies to pest plants such as mexican daisies keep the cooch grass at bay. or marygolds help tomatoes grow by attracting the insects to them rather then the tomatoes. so to listen to your opions are awwsumm. i cant comment as much as i would like to at the moment as i have guests but you are right about getting back to the earth. we are earthlings with a awwsumm task of learning. it is when one thinks they know everything greed sets in. i believe that thier will be an event that will unite all of mankind someday. something not of this world but yet not uncommon to our universe. thank you for you words, i hold them close and feel what you feel must be done. that is ecept the great spirit of creation and expand our limits of knowledge for the fullfillment of world peace. anyone can hurt someone but to be a healer is an invite to the goodness of our great father. again thank you and may peace be you company.

Mongorian
07-10-2006, 11:30 AM
This thread...is actually really good. Some of you guys are real smart cookies. I've had fun reading this entire thing. :cool:

marty56
07-10-2006, 02:14 PM
To be honest, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but I do think it may be the Christian mentality that may be a large reason for lack of respect for the environment. Where various tribal peoples feel that they are a part of nature, Christians believe they are in charge of nature, must control it, etc..

The Bible teaches that everything comes from God and if you are a Christian, salvation comes through through Jesus.

I wont argue with you that people dont walk the walk for the talk they talk.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say the Christians believe they are in charge of anything other than man is a fallen creature and it is only through the blood of Jesus that we can we can find redemption. Christans must belive that everything they have is through God.

You should read the Bible.

Nashoba
07-10-2006, 02:31 PM
The Bible teaches that everything comes from God and if you are a Christian, salvation comes through through Jesus.

I wont argue with you that people dont walk the walk for the talk they talk.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say the Christians believe they are in charge of anything other than man is a fallen creature and it is only through the blood of Jesus that we can we can find redemption. Christans must belive that everything they have is through God.

You should read the Bible.
You might want to go back and read some more of what your bible teaches you. One of the primary lessons taught in Sunday school is abou the creation :
Genesis 1:

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

This is what was WVa refered to....and it is a veiwpoint a lot of Christians I have met use to justify attitudes toward the environment.

I'm not Christian anymore, but I used to be a Baptist Preacher. What was stated above is just one of the many reasons I don't believe in the Bible or follow that faith anymore.

Nothing wrong with those who do, but this as just my choice. But if your going to follow a faith and tell others they should read the bible...make sure you have first :)

marty56
07-10-2006, 06:24 PM
...
I know what you are trying to do and it wont work.

Everything we own comes from God and a Jesus teached stewardship of what God has given us is very important.

SuicideRUN
07-10-2006, 06:53 PM
I know what you are trying to do and it wont work.

Everything we own comes from God and a Jesus teached stewardship of what God has given us is very important.

That is your belief, not mine. To me there is no christian god. I do believe in an afterlife. I read an interesting book called Echoes of the Soul. It's by a woman who died and was brought back. She explains the afterlife is like a series of levels you have to be ready for before you may go on. And that every religion is right and wrong at the same time.

Level one is basiclly whatever you believe the afterlife is. There are beings there, lets just call them angels, that teach you that this is just a transition. And when you are ready to accepts the truth you pass to the next level of consciousness. The final level is you become one with god. But while in the other levels you can return to Earth anytime and start a new life. You know everything about the life you will have. The angels say the meaning of life is knowledge. You live on Earth to experience and learn. In the next life being rich or powerful doesn't mean anything. You want to learn as much as you can. So you might return to a person who has cancer so you can experience what it is like to live with this disease. So basiclly this life you chose for yourself, everything that has and will happen was designed by you. It even talks about suicide, there is no punishment for that. She explains that those who do commit suicide will always feel that they cheated themself out of the experiences they wanted. That life for them will always feel undone.

Laz
07-10-2006, 07:18 PM
This thread...is actually really good. Some of you guys are real smart cookies. I've had fun reading this entire thing. :cool:

Yes, it is. Like I mentioned earlier, I picked up some information I wouldn't have normally picked up thanks to this thread. Or maybe I said that in the other thread. Anyway, it's cool to see that other people appreciate these guys replies.

Nashoba
07-10-2006, 08:05 PM
I know what you are trying to do and it wont work.

Everything we own comes from God and a Jesus teached stewardship of what God has given us is very important.

LOL!!! :)

I wasn't "trying" to do anything. I believe each person must find their own path and make their own peace with faith.

I could care less whether you believe in Jehovah, Jesus, Allah, a multitude of gods, or none, or even if you worship the great flying spaghetti monster.....

My only point was that if you follow a faith....know what it teaches before you try to correct someone else. You said nowhere in the Bible did it say man was in charge of the earth...I was just showing you chapter and verse where it is said.

It makes no difference to me one way or the other...but I will tell you....that if you are like a lot of Christians who want to "save souls" you better damn well know your material....because someone out there will call you on it if you don't. Don't assume that because someone doesn't follow your chosen faith, that they don't know your faith.

My personal beliefs are that the Creator wrote down everything in the life, rocks and sky around us, and Man wrote a book....I prefer the Creator's story...but again that is my belief...and I don't care if others follow it or any other religion....we each have to find our own way. :)

Oh and just because I'm feeling a bit cheeky and mischievous.....the past tense of teach is taught not teached (sorry, my wife is an English major, I couldn't resist.) ;) :)

SuicideRUN
07-10-2006, 09:12 PM
And Practice what you preach. That right there is one of the biggest problems with christians today. Say one thing and do another.

marty56
07-10-2006, 10:35 PM
Despite what is anyone says in this forum here, it is not possible to really know what it is to be a Christian until you accept Jesus into your heart. You can read the Bible from cover to cover and unless you accept Jesus, its just a book.

No real Christian would ever admit that they are the master of the world and are free to do what they want with it.

Yes there are many fake Christians and yes Moslems and Jews and every body else.

For a better prospective from someone who really does try to practice what they preach, check out.

http://www.connectiononline.org/

garland81
07-10-2006, 11:20 PM
Wow. where was I the last 1 and a 1/2 days? lol. My comp is now up to par to manhandle Prey and will be getting it in 16 hours.

IN THIS TOPIC: THE HEALING CIRCLE

The slow wither of the native tribes saddens me too. When I was young, I used to cheer for the cowboys until my brother pointed out I was an indian. That shocked me. My dad taught me pow wow songs when I was 10 but I always felt it burdensome.. he didn't really teach me why the significance of our own culture and I never thought to ask. I never really understood what it meant to be native.

That is until I started having life issues of a more spirit affliction. I was pretty much an outcast not because of the skin color. So I spent all that time by myself watching the world revolve around me.. so I had my stuff going on in my life, bad event after bad event, and one thing my dad said to me was to listen to their words of whom I was arguing with and you'll see mistakes in them. That started me on this journey for knowledge.

I started reading books for "mental tools" I could use to fight off these diseases of the mind.. excerpts from R.A. Salvatore, Taoism teachings (chinese philosophy :P), which helped me repel all these hateful words flying at me. One thing that always bothered me is when you outcast people as "the enemy", it felt too divisionary for me. Another thing all these books didn't teach is what you do when you did something you regret.. you become the sinner and sinners are hated by default and could never obtain atonement. I felt that was wrong, because I knew people who regretted terrible deeds and were good people at heart.

So came the road of the native teachings that my mother taught me. She introduced me to this absolutely new world of the healing circle that was from natives themselves which utterly shocked me.

For those who don't know, The Healing Circle was the native's form of justice. Rupert Ross called it "Justice as Healing" which is directly opposite of the white person's "Justice as Punishment" court and judicial system.

The mentality behind it was, "in Justice as Punishment", if you did something wrong, you get punished.. meaning.. it prompts one to lie in order to avoid a bad end result, weither they are guilty or not. If the courts proved you guilty, you go to jail and serve your time. That would be that. It gave no consideration of how the victim would recover or if this criminal would commit a crime again.

The "Justice as Healing" prompts one to speak the truth by offering no punishment as an end result. Yes, you maybe thinking one gets away with it if that happened.. but you gotta be thinking terms of the pre-settler natives, they didn't have jail cells or prisons nor laws for that matter.. and since their tribes weren't exactly big.. they needed everyone's skills to help each other survive a harsh land. So they all sat and talked these problems out.. and no magnitude of sin was far outstanding of the power of the healing circle.

Most of the Healing Circles worked because of the native languages. When you talk in native, like Ojibway, you can feel their words that's so personal that it feels you are talking directly to their spirit.. and the language itself has (coined by Rupert Ross) this Einsteinian way of thinking. So when the victim talked, all their words were felt that not even the crime comitter can escape. All that pain and torment festers into the conscience of that criminal so much it forces him to realize the folly he has done and how it affected the victim.

Today, the healing circle has a far more complex method of process. Upon crime commited the process is normal, criminal gets arrested, victim gives a statement but.. whomever is the first the hear the ENTIRE story would be the one responsible to tell everyone the same exact thorough non-warped story, because rumors twist and warp the truth like a mad man. The criminal and victim would both be asked to be admitted to the healing circle and if the judges approved, it would be so.

Victims would go to counselling for whatever crime was done to them to seek help and healing and prepare them to face the accused, while criminals will spend some time in jail for a bit until he/she too goes to counselling programs (alcoholism, abuse, drug addiction, etc.) Then, the whole family and friends of both the victim and accused would sit in a circle with police officers, judges, lawyers, psychologists, etc to talk about the event.. and each talked their heart out of what they felt and how it affected them.

Everything they said was uninterrupted and as long as they wanted and they all analyzed how this crime came to be. Not only did they analyze the why this crime happened, they analyzed the criminal themselves.. going through the criminal's entire life of all those little things that contributed to his behavior and flushed out all those inner personal demons (every last one of them) until all his inner most deepest pains were exposed into the open.

There's alot of crying, alot of pain, hate, inner torment involved but in the end of this long process actual healing has been gained and both the victim and criminal make full recoveries.

The mentality behind it is.. "an angry person is a barrel of pain ignited in flames, but if you drained the fuel that feeds the fire there wouldn't be anything left to ignite." and that's what the healing circle does. It defuses walking time bombs entirely.

When I learned this, I was shocked... I was opened into an entirely new world where there was this greater understanding beyond anything I've ever imagined. I went through this process with my family and it works. People can't heal by themselves.

The rate of the healing circle's success was 99/100. 100 criminals. Only 5 reoffended. Out of those 5, only 1 remained a true criminal. That is only if the circle itself isn't corrupted. Yes there are those who abuse this circle to get off easily and escape wrong doings (nothing's perfect).

Since then, I've been truly devoted to my own heritage. This is why alot of the natives who know of their own heritage, hold onto it with all their might. Of all the stuff I learned, these natives who came before me were incredible wise people, which is why I am very honored to be apart of this culture.

And it is also why it saddens me that all these teachings like this are slowly withering away.

Well, that's all for now.

ENJOY PREY EVERYONE!!

Nashoba
07-10-2006, 11:33 PM
Beautifully said Garland.

garland81
07-10-2006, 11:42 PM
One more thing to add:

In the rarest of cases when the healing circle did not work or a native in the older days refused to enter it. They would either shun the person or banish them from the village.

When they shun someone, nobody in the tribe talks to the criminal and it may seem no big deal at first until time passes by when you want to hear words or people talking to you. Nobody would treat you with respect. Nobody would care if you ate or starved. You were completely shut out, until you gave in and confessed.. then the healing circle would commence.

For those shunned or refused entirely, banishment was a last resort and rarely did it happen.

That's all for now :D

PS: Ty Mr. Nashoba. :D

beachsurfside
07-11-2006, 02:48 AM
my dad is 75% native american ...navahoe or something..
he loves duke nukem...

and you guys that are typing alot...
who really gives a sh*t...
you need to take your head's out of your ass's .
stop talkin about racism and queer stuff like that
we are all human and the reason i can have sex with a black girl and make a child is because we are no differnt than one another. We look differnt because we adapted and evolved differnt because of the areas of the world we are from. but it doesnt mean anything. Who fkin knows....
maybe mars was once inhabited by white people before the fked the planet up and had to move to earth ....and maybe black people are from venus and the fked it up and had to move to earth as well....maybe asian people are the only ones who are originally from earth ..
who knows right? but who cares...
because that theory i just stated is as wrong as the ones your spewing out .
so dont lose your virginity over it

Phait
07-11-2006, 05:55 AM
No offense at all:)

When I mention I'm half blood, I merely refer to genetic proportions. It's just a sore point with me that I cannot legaly be part of my Nation, and cannot claim to be a native artist without being sued because I don't have a number that links to some government pedigree, and that we are the only race that has to prove this.

You're half and yet you don't qualify? I'm quarter Inupiat (Alaska Eskimo) and I qualify. That's a bit of a bummer.

WVa Cherokee
07-11-2006, 01:08 PM
stop talkin about racism and queer stuff like that

Nice little contradition there. You don't want racism but you'll use bigotry against gays?

Joe Siegler
07-11-2006, 01:25 PM
OK, we're so far off topic, it's not funny.

Remember, this forum is supposed to be about Prey - the game, not all these other side issues that have no point being in a Prey forum.

:lock: