DNF development opinion on Tom's Hardware

[Spyd]

"The best games never published" (http://www.twitchguru.com/2006/06/13/the_best_games_never_published/page4.html)

This one might be the messiest production ever. Okay, so Duke Nukem Forever was never actually cancelled. It's just been delayed for nearly nine years. The original Duke Nukem PC game was released in 1991 and quickly became a popular title with its comic book pulp and innovative (at the time) game play. Two sequels were released in 1993 and 1996, establishing the Duke as a successful PC game franchise.

The fourth installment, Duke Nukem Forever (DNF), was intended to be the piece de resistance of the series, but instead the game has become notorious for its delays and internal struggles. Work began on DNF in 1997 on the Quake game engine, but later that year developer 3D Realms moved to the Quake II engine. Apparently, engine switches and upgrades would become a disturbing pattern for 3D Realms. After some preliminary screenshots and trailer footage was released in 1998, 3D dumped the Quake engine altogether and switched to the Unreal Engine, which caused some serious technical issues. Then, 3D upgraded to Unreal Engine 1.5, which led to more headaches.

Things got worse after 3D indicated DNF would arrive before the holiday season of 2000. Then, the publishing rights were moved from Infogrames to Gather of Developers, a Take-Two Interactive subsidiary, and the release date was moved to 2001. By 2003, many fans were wondering if the game would ever arrive. So did Take-Two and basically everyone in the video game industry. And in 2004, 3D announced that it replaced the game's Karma physics engine with a new physics engine from Swedish developer Meqon Research (later acquired by Ageia). At this point, it was widely assumed that 3D was creating DNF from scratch and that all content and material previously completed (if any was actually completed) had been dumped.

The numerous delays, postponements and false promises have left many gamers frustrated with 3D, which has been accused of spending more time on clearing its forum of all DNF complaints and criticism and trying to erase any traces of previously announced release dates for the game. Of course, 3D still has DNF listed on their Website with the feel-good statement "Coming when it's done." Gee, thanks.

[cladinshadows]

I'm surprised they didn't say it was the next Diakatana.I guess they don't think it'll get far enough to earn the title.
In any case, opinions like this are posted all the time but it seems to me that if they read these forums they would get more information than they think is available.

[trackit]

there have been no sing of Duke since 2001 and still there appear different articles about DNF on regular basis on many sites and magazines... i think it shows how popular Duke Nukem franchise really is :)

[Monkey Butler]

spending more time on clearing its forum of all DNF complaints and criticism
Funny, I thought some of my posts were missing...

[trackit]

Funny, I thought some of my posts were missing...

haha, pay close attention how your post disappears this time too :D when this thread gets deleted :)

[Monkey Butler]

Yeah, guess I should've read the FAQ sooner. But seriously, criticism is healthy and normal.

[Guere]

It's not 'just' criticism. Most of the posts that get deleted are either rants or mindless comments that will just ignite a flamewar.

Next to that, 3DR has heard every possible comment, reaction or 'funny' joke regarding the development time. It's pretty useless to criticize their game developing skills at this point since they know what went wrong in the past and it doesn't help anyone to repeat the same stuff over and over again. That's why stuff gets deleted; it serves no purpose except to start another flame war between the anti- and pro 3DR camps. It's all in the past; DNF's development has been steady for years now. There's no sense in endless discussions about what happened the past.

[Micki!]

This articles opinion of the engine switches are very in-accurate...
They only swithced 2 times...
Starting with Quake 2

Then the first switch to Unreal...
Then the second switch, to Unreal...

There is no 3'rd time, as they scrapped the unreal version, but kept developing on it (upgrades included, such as newer versions of the engine components)... That's not counted as a switch...

Right..?

[Monkey Butler]

Semantics, really.

Guere, my posts that were deleted were about why some people seem to believe that DNF will be the best game ever, bar none, without actually having any tangible reason for that. It wasn't flame bait, it wasn't trolling, but it was still deleted (although to be fair I can't remember what thread it was in so it's possible the entire thread was deleted).

[ADM]

which has been accused of spending more time on clearing its forum of all DNF complaints and criticism

Accused by who? They make it sound like it's a common accusation, yet nothing like this has been brought up since a couple of years ago (near when I first joined in 2001) when the same dribble was said.

I think Tom's Hardware is just bitching for the sake of it.

[Little Conqueror]

So, what does this stuffy blogger's opinion mean?

Absolutely nothing.

[Spyd]

Hey, I think some of you are over-reacting to that article.

Is true that there are some inaccuracies, but coming from a "non-3dr-forum-user", reflects fairly well what everybody thinks about DNF.

I'm just happy for 3DR that Duke still is a prominent figure in the videogame universe.

[helious]

This articles opinion of the engine switches are very in-accurate...
They only swithced 2 times...
Starting with Quake 2

Then the first switch to Unreal...
Then the second switch, to Unreal...

There is no 3'rd time, as they scrapped the unreal version, but kept developing on it (upgrades included, such as newer versions of the engine components)... That's not counted as a switch...

Right..?


Hi Micki..

No they actually started out with the Quake 1 engine.
I dont know if you ever saw the VERY first screenshots, but i think they startet with the Quake 1 engine..

[Micki!]

I'm a little confused with all the engines and stuff...
I should ask Kristian or Firefly again, they should know...

[Kristian Joensen]

Hi Micki..

No they actually started out with the Quake 1 engine.
I dont know if you ever saw the VERY first screenshots, but i think they startet with the Quake 1 engine..

This is correct sortof, but they only where playing around with it and had already licensed Q2E so they where just waiting on the Q2 source code.

They never actually licensed Q1E seperately from Q2E, the license they got from id included, Quake, QuakeWorld AND Quake 2 code.

[Micki!]

Aha... :)

[St. Toxic]

Gee

I love it when people say gee.

[trigun0006]

I wonder what engine they are using now, the unreal engin is sort of old now, so i sort of doubt it, that leavs the doom 3 engine and source engine, but i doubt unreal engine 3 if its been in full development for more than a year, and i see the doom 3 engine as a big posibility because of its use in prey.

[Malgon]

They cut of from U/UT updates, and then went back and re-wrote many sub systems including: Renderer, A.I. Physics, Particle, Animation, Sound, networking and a few more other systems. Practically 90% of the engine content is new, so it has really no connection to the old Unreal tech used in 2001ish. Correct or add more to it KJ or FireFly if you wish. ;)

[Airtraffic]

Accused by who? They make it sound like it's a common accusation, yet nothing like this has been brought up since a couple of years ago (near when I first joined in 2001) when the same dribble was said.

I think Tom's Hardware is just bitching for the sake of it.
Are you kidding:doh:

This forum is trimmed more than a hollywood porn star,i didn't give Joe the handle of "happy fingers" for nothing.

I know you make a living at 3DR but for christ sake show some respect for some of us who know better.:dopefish:

[ADM]

I know you make a living at 3DR but for christ sake show some respect for some of us who know better.:dopefish:

Actually I don't. I volunteer as a moderator here and I think I know better then you what goes on around here don't you think?

[Airtraffic]

Actually I don't. I volunteer as a moderator here and I think I know better then you what goes on around here don't you think?
Lately yes you would,a few years ago is a different story...concurr?

[ADM]

Lately yes you would,a few years ago is a different story...concurr?
Well exactly what I thought a few years ago is what goes on here.. nothing. No conspiracy's, no nothing.

[Monkey Butler]

So why were my posts deleted?

[Spyd]

This thread is going to a dangerous zone.
Do you think (both parts) that this discussion will do something other than lock this thread?
Besides, this is 3DR's forum, so if they don't like something they have all the rights to cut it off. Sometimes people here think like they're paying for being a member of this forum and 3DR has obligations with them. Ridiculous.

[ertertwert]

This thread is really not doing any good...

[Monkey Butler]

No, but to delete any critical posts is just thin-skinned. Reality is that even people who are looking forward to the game are allowed to be frustrated by things the hear or see, or more regularly what they DON'T hear and see, and it's just stupid to pretend that doesn't happen.

EDIT: And do you think most of the other threads here are "doing some good"

[StainedCheeks]

the polarized forum effect gets some in troble. i gata watch it myself. peace

[Monkey Butler]

We're here because we're looking forward to DNF and we want to talk about it. End of. Nothing should preclude us from stating our opinions, critical or not.

[djmondy]

I wounder how all these different sites are goona feel when the game does arrive. its the same crap every year from one or the other saying how long the game is taking and how many engine changes its had.

So what if dnf is taking a long time! so what if its had 3,4,5,6,7 engine changes and so f'king what if they think it will never come out. these people who are posting this crap on their site had better have a massive apology for 3drealms when dnf hits the shelves.

Why in the hell would 3drealms lie for this long about dnf. it just wouldnt be funny or good for their company name!!

As far as i and many many on here are concerned dnf will come out one day, when? who knows but it will! why dont these sites just FFFFFFFffffffffff!!!!:insomnia: :censored: i want to say it but i wont.

[Guere]

Monkey Butler you didn't read my post right. Every crtitical point HAS ALREADY BEEN BROUGHT UP. What's the freaking use of having a couple of posts every week complaining about same old stuff. Yes, maybe some good posts in those threads will get deleted also but that's because the entire thread was useless from the beginning. I really don't see the use in pointing out 3DR's mistakes from the past OVER and OVER again. It helps no one, it doesn't help the game come out faster, and if you don't believe they're actually finishing the game this time then you shouldn't be posting here. Simple as that.

And about the other threads: yes, they're actually positive and made by people who have been (mostly) patiently waiting. Again: what's the use of endlessly repeating "omg they've been working on it for 10 years" / "it's not coming out loool 3dr should give up"?

[StainedCheeks]

faith is the substance of things hoped for, not seen. those who have faith in 3DR have proven it. havent seen anything for a long time, but still have faith. imagine the reward for those who haent seen. we havent been spoiled by info, in the day it comes all other games will bow. as thet did in the past. keep the faith.

[Spyd]

Monkey Butler:

This forum can't be a monothematic discussion about how 3DR works -it just ends in a flame war.
If you think your opinion is mutilated in this forum, go create yours. 3DR won't be erasing anything there. But you will be able to delete a thread of mine if the only contents of it is me whinning about the lack of feature X of your forum that you promised a week ago. You'll even will thin of banning me: "I'm doing what I can, and that Spyd guy only annoys me".

[Airtraffic]

Monkey Butler you didn't read my post right. Every crtitical point HAS ALREADY BEEN BROUGHT UP. What's the freaking use of having a couple of posts every week complaining about same old stuff.

Kinda like the 4 kazillion posts that start with "will DNF have........?":doh:

[Guere]

Exactly ;)

[Monkey Butler]

My beef is that I didn't actually complain about anything other than the fact that there's a great number of sycophants around here. In fact, complain is probably too strong a word - I challenged a couple of people that said something along the lines of "DNF will be the best game ever made". I DO believe that DNF will be released, and I DO hope that it will be a good game, regardless of the engine changes, the delays, and the scorn heaped upon it by the media, but I'm not so naive to think that it's going to be the best game of all time just because it's a sequel to DN3D or because it's being made by 3DR. And yet my post was still deleted.

DJmondy, 3DR have probably acted in the best possible way in response to their critics - they're many, many years overdue from their original scheduled release date, and yet they're still trucking; there's not much else that could be demanded of them. They're still making the game, regardless of the fact that they're way overdue. The media is going to continue mentioning the fact that they're overdue until the game is actually released. It's not about (IMO) laughing at 3DR, or not believing that the game is never goign to be released/isn't in development, it's about the fact that DNF is the quintessential vapourware title - before this it was Daikatana, before that it was Tiberian Sun. People are interested in DNF, but a large part of that interest is that fact that it's taken so damn long to make. And so people are still going to talk about it.

Guere: I understand every criticism had already been brought up, but why does that mean posts expressing those criticisms should be deleted? People have talked about what type of interactivity DNF should have before, and yet new threads pop up about that all the time. The problem I have is that only negatively reptitive posts seem to be deleted - posts asking about the engine capabilities or whatever seem to be at worst ignored or locked. What's so bad about having a single post in a thread saying something negative?

And finally, Spyd: as I said, people come here because they're looking forward to DNF and have an interest in discussing it. A part of the development of the game is necessarily the fact that it's been delayed indefinitely and we've been barred from seeing, hearing or knowing anything about it until "WID" (by no means is that supposed to mean that I'm just vindictive because we haven't been allowed to see anything. I don't agree with that strategy, but it's a valid one). So why can't we talk about that delay if we're not trolling?
My opinion is this - I believe that DNF is in devlopment. I know for a fact that it's been in devlopment for a long time; the longest time. I believe that it's going to be a great game. I'm dissappointed that it's taken 3DR so long to complete the game, and that they treat members of their forum with the apparent disdain (by deleting their legitimate posts) in which they do. I want to discuss the game and its possibilities. That's it. To say that I should take my ball and go home is childish.

[Guere]

Well, I have to say I didn't know your individual case but I've seen many, many other posts deleted too. Most of these are topics about you just can't discuss (see sticky). Other than that, I've also seen posts deleted that ask the same stuff over and over again: will it be on the 360, when will there be news about ports, when will we see screenshots, etc. All those threads have nothing to do with criticizing DNF or 3DR, but are just questions that have been asked so often that they get deleted too.

Like I said, maybe you personally didn't say anything to make a moderator delete the topic, but maybe others did and that's why it's gone. You have to understand that when you're been here for a long time (And even I haven't been here that long, I'm relatively new), you see these threads popping up all the time. I'm sure that when there's a good topic discussing DNF and you give your two cents explaining that you don't think it will be all that great it won't be deleted. I've seen enough people talk about how they don't think it won't be a success or think 3DR's making a huge mistake, so rational threads won't get deleted.

I know I can sound a little harsh, but I just can't stand it when the general public makes these stupid accusations against 3DR or silly jokes/rants about DNF. I'm sure this was not the case with your post, but maybe a moderator thought the thread was going nowhere and everything in it had already been discussed. If you have a good, original thread idea or comment about the game I'm sure that everyone here will be happy to discuss it with you :) But regarding the delay discussion, I mean, what can you possible say that hasn't been said before? The game was restarted in the end of 2002 and has been on steady development ever since. You have to count from there; it's no use in going on about stuff like: omgomg it's been 10 years and then opening a new topic in a few months going omgomg it's been 11 years! :D

[Monkey Butler]

Sure, I fully understand that the inane questions like "will it be on the PS3?" or "is it true that's its' coming out on the xx/xx because that's what such and such site said" are annoying and have no real place here, and I can understand the frustration when uninformed public opinion is widely disseminated, but to delete threads or even just posts for no better reason than because they were critical is pretty bad.

[Guere]

Hmm, well, if you really want an answer you'd have to ask the moderators. I'm just saying I understand why they delete certain topics. I wasn't aware single posts were being cut too, but that's pretty hard to know if you haven't read them yet :) I do think the entire thread you posted in got deleted. I too have posted in the threads that got deleted. Oh well, too bad :)

Anyway, there's not much more I can say; basically I just think it's useless to go on about the negative past and just focus on things they're doing now. I know there's not much information about DNF on the table but hey, no need to go on about negative stuff that most outsiders do :)

[ADM]

but to delete threads or even just posts for no better reason than because they were critical is pretty bad.

Uh... we don't do that. Good proof of that is in the Prey forum where there are posters saying they don't like the game.

[Monkey Butler]

So was the entire thread deleted or what?

[djmondy]

DJmondy, 3DR have probably acted in the best possible way in response to their critics - they're many, many years overdue from their original scheduled release date, and yet they're still trucking; there's not much else that could be demanded of them. They're still making the game, regardless of the fact that they're way overdue. The media is going to continue mentioning the fact that they're overdue until the game is actually released. It's not about (IMO) laughing at 3DR, or not believing that the game is never goign to be released/isn't in development, it's about the fact that DNF is the quintessential vapourware title - before this it was Daikatana, before that it was Tiberian Sun. People are interested in DNF, but a large part of that interest is that fact that it's taken so damn long to make. And so people are still going to talk about it.

I would just love to see the critics faces when the game does come out. it will be a day to remember thats for sure!

[ADM]

So was the entire thread deleted or what?
I don't know.. I don't even know what thread you are talking about. Try finding the thread, if you can't find it then chances are it was deleted.

If you think you did nothing wrong then chances are you didn't do anything wrong and the topic was nuked for other reasons.

[cladinshadows]

I would just love to see the critics faces when the game does come out. it will be a day to remember thats for sure!

It's just too bad the photos of those faces won't be in the special edition manual ;).

[HiPingLee]

Accused by who? They make it sound like it's a common accusation, yet nothing like this has been brought up since a couple of years ago (near when I first joined in 2001) when the same dribble was said.

I think Tom's Hardware is just bitching for the sake of it.

That's part of the point. You really can't desent for fear of having your post removed or even being banned.

HPL

[Gatinater]

You can't expect to come on a PG P.C interweb forum and expect full disclosure. You forget forums are supervised by the Gestapo. Anything that everyone won't agree on is considered flame bait and when you disagree you are a troll. That's why the threads usually become so lame. Someone starts one and if you don't respond with anything other than yes, that's nice or I totally agree you become a subversive or an advocate.

That's why you have to go on MSN or some similar place if you wish to speak your mind. Can't expect to do that here.

I's sure if enough people posted this is totally garbage and completely sux they would delete about 75% and leave a few for integrity.