Player Freedom?

[Novelle]

So whats the design philosophy in Duke Nukem Forever in terms of player freedom and level exploration? Are you going to follow the Valve route, where player is always in tight lease, just that he or she would see every cool scripted thing that Valve has made for their game? Or will you give player more freedom to choose his path to game objectives?

Im not a big fan of the Valve system because when I finished HL2, and Episode One I felt that I have already seen everything there was, and had no urge to play those games ever again. And to be honest I doubt that I will buy further Episodes because I am so full of those games already.

But then came the Prey demo, another shooter "in rails", but something odd happened and I have played it thru like 10 times already. Reason for this is simple, even tho player is moving on rails just like in HL2, I never felt that I was always forced to look into certain direction just like I am in Valve games, there is lot of things in Prey demo that you miss during your first playthrough, lot's of small details and interactivity. Also its a great game(demo) which also helps.

So please do not keep me in such tight lease, give players some room to explore the maps, maybe even let players to choose from multiple different routes.

I am not asking for total freedom to do whatever I want just like in Deus Ex, just better illusion of living gameworld. Nothing breaks illusion for me better than just one door in every room that works. :)

If Duke Nukem Forver is one hell of ride on rails I will still like it, another reason why I have started to hate HL games is because character I am playing never speaks, and I have to listen that dumb bitch monology. :)

Edit: Also too much scripting in SP usually means that there will be no co-op game, and it would be sweet to have co-op in next Duke.

[Commando Nukem]

So whats the design philosophy in Duke Nukem Forever in terms of player freedom and level exploration? Are you going to follow the Valve route, where player is always in tight lease, just that he or she would see every cool scripted thing that Valve has made for their game? Or will you give player more freedom to choose his path to game objectives?

Im not a big fan of the Valve system because when I finished HL2, and Episode One I felt that I have already seen everything there was, and had no urge to play those games ever again. And to be honest I doubt that I will buy further Episodes because I am so full of those games already.

But then came the Prey demo, another shooter "in rails", but something odd happened and I have played it thru like 10 times already. Reason for this is simple, even tho player is moving on rails just like in HL2, I never felt that I was always forced to look into certain direction just like I am in Valve games, there is lot of things in Prey demo that you miss during your first playthrough, lot's of small details and interactivity. Also its a great game(demo) which also helps.

So please do not keep me in such tight lease, give players some room to explore the maps, maybe even let players to choose from multiple different routes.

I am not asking for total freedom to do whatever I want just like in Deus Ex, just better illusion of living gameworld. Nothing breaks illusion for me better than just one door in every room that works. :)

If Duke Nukem Forver is one hell of ride on rails I will still like it, another reason why I have started to hate HL games is because character I am playing never speaks, and I have to listen that dumb bitch monology. :)

Edit: Also too much scripting in SP usually means that there will be no co-op game, and it would be sweet to have co-op in next Duke.


They've said a few times that they're going with something similar to HL1 for the way the storyline is given to the player (Scripted events.).

Also, I just wanted to make a little correction in your word use. "On Rail" shooters are those found generally in Arcades, games like "Terminator 2 :Arcade" "Alien 3 : The Gun" "Time Cop". The diffference is that in a game like HL2 the only limiter is that you can't avoid a trigger generally speaking. Going down HALL A triggers TRIGGER B.

Valve "Could have" added in alternate paths to get to the same spot. But in each case they do that, they would also have to come up with a new way to give the player story information (which was a stretch in HL2 anyway...)

I wouldn't Worry too much about how DNF handles it. It will be fun and kick ass.

And "Just Like Deus Ex" is an ironic tall order, since Deus Ex is an anomaly in FPS games. Generally speaking open-ended games invovling a story are not good FPS games. Its easy to confuse the player. Deus Ex wasn't exactly an FPS either, more like a FPRPG. Theres a big difference in the gameplay mechanics. Duke has always been the guy who was romping the maps spouting one liners. So its probably gonna hold that course. Though im sure 3DR won't hesitate to throw in a few dead-end pathways to explore, and secret/hard to get to places.

:)

[Novelle]

I guess the thing is that I want to see some open city maps where Duke can do his "thing". :)

And I think that it is entirely possible to do Deus Ex style city map for Duke Nukem Forever, throw in some strip joints and bars, enemies, starting location and ending location. What players do between those two points would be up to them, but the level design would just ensure that players would have lot of fun between those points.

HL2 city never actually felt like a city to me. If they would remove those 3D skyboxes there would be nothing but tunnels.

Duke3D city level at that time was amazing, cant actually remember anything else from the game except some space stuff.

[the true duke]

hl2 had great maps to play in (i myself liked ravenholm the best). but to many routes to the same spot is meaningless (unless you want one route to be empty, the other full of enemies, and the last to be a dead end).

[Commando Nukem]

I guess the thing is that I want to see some open city maps where Duke can do his "thing". :)

And I think that it is entirely possible to do Deus Ex style city map for Duke Nukem Forever, throw in some strip joints and bars, enemies, starting location and ending location. What players do between those two points would be up to them, but the level design would just ensure that players would have lot of fun between those points.

HL2 city never actually felt like a city to me. If they would remove those 3D skyboxes there would be nothing but tunnels.

Duke3D city level at that time was amazing, cant actually remember anything else from the game except some space stuff.

Im just saying, from what I remember correctly, they have said they are doing things the more conventional way. and it would be quite hard to get a deus ex style city setup in a duke enviroment. Any enviroment is difficult and time consuming. But when you get into the open-ended stuff... You really risk confusing and frustrating the player. The "WOW COOL" Factor does start to wear off when you realise you have no F*CKING CLUE where to go. lol

[Tim. Just Tim.]

Obviously they cant give us too much freedom, like GTA or something. But I hope its a lot like Duke3d - each level has 1 beginning point, 1 end point, maybe a few keys and locked doors scattered around the level.

I found Max Payne2 to be an awesome game, but extremely linear. There was no freedom whatsoever. Playing the game the second time was exactly the same as playing it the first, because there is nothing different you can do. Each footstep you take is exactly the footstep the developers planned you to take.

Duke3d is cool because they allowed so much player freedom. The player still has to get from the beginning of the level to the end, but he can do it his own way. The game can be very different each time you play it because you have a few options of what to do and what order to do it in.

Look at my lame picture. The level on the left is a max-payne style linear level. You have exactly one way to go. On the right is a duke style level. You can go wherever you want, but you cant exit until youve done the objectives (get the keys). You can get them in whatever order you want (in general). So you get the same results in both cases:
Force the player to see the entire map (gotta show off all that hard work right?)
Force the player to kill all the bad guys, force the player to get from the start to the beginning. But in Duke3d, they accomplished this by using keeys and locked doors, instead of walls. Its much better this way and makes the game feel like so much more

[Novelle]

Im just saying, from what I remember correctly, they have said they are doing things the more conventional way. and it would be quite hard to get a deus ex style city setup in a duke enviroment. Any enviroment is difficult and time consuming. But when you get into the open-ended stuff... You really risk confusing and frustrating the player. The "WOW COOL" Factor does start to wear off when you realise you have no F*CKING CLUE where to go. lol


You are right, but it is only matter of game and level design whether or not the player knows where he should be going. Even in Episode One there was moments when I had no f*ucking clue what I should do next, even tho there is only one way to go.

Underestimating the players is also one reason why games are less good today than they used to be. I dont think that small open city area map in Duke Nukem Forever would be too complicated, if there would be lot of enemies to shoot and small fun interactivity everywhere to discover. More rewarding gaming experience, and also reason to play the game thru more than once.

Maybe I just want the first level of Shadow Warrior/Duke 3D in larger scale. :)

[The Red Slaughter]

A cool adition to DNF would be two exit points that lead to diferent levels that could lead to even more diferent levels.

[the true duke]

good idea, thta also hads replay value has you missed some levels and get a whole different ending.

[Sang]

HL2: Episode One was awesome to play through once. If the design remains compact and linear (but fun) throughout the whole thing it'll work out well. If you have GTA-styled open environments though you have the risk that things might get boring faster.

[the true duke]

i havent got half life episode one but i heard its really really short (like half life:blue shift, when people played like 4-5 hours and then say "thats it".

[The Red Slaughter]

Yeah, Blue Shift was REALLY short, cause it's was originaly going fer the consoles, but they put it on PC. If they did to PC since the begginin', it would be larger, much larger.

Oh, and I want some big city levels and better did roads. I mean, look and Holywood Holocaust. It was the coolest level of the game (well... Maybe only "Going Postal" and "Tiberius Station" where better), but the road was small and blocked by a wall. If the guys want to block the road, put some crashed bus there. That do it all.

[Imfamous]

DNF will be a huge letdown if it's straight-line linear like HL2.

[St. Toxic]

Totally in agreement with you there.

[the true duke]

hl2 wasnt a letdown to me, well to most of you because you expect so much and then imagine what it should have and then when it came out and it didnt have what you imagine it was a letdown. samething happened to doom 3, people imagined what they wanted and expected a lot and then got it and was disapointed. im expecting the same to happen to dnf for most of you. you are all expecting to much for just a fps.

[Malgon]

The reason DN3D felt like you had freedom was due to a creative level design, which allowed you a few different takes through any given area in order for you to accomplish the same goal. I'm sure 3DRealms has thought long and hard about this, and has allowed for to DNF to be linear (for storytelling purposes) yet not so narrow, and tunnel like in its pathway. I'm sure there is a balance that can accomodate for both ways. :)

[infowars]

DNF will be a huge letdown if it's straight-line linear like HL2.

HL2 was a VERY straight forward linear game....:mad:
I did not personally like it...the vechiles were a blast to drive around in...but I felt like I was playin through a basic fps...nothing speacial....nothing great...over hyped!

DNF cant just be a HL2 with playable slot machines/video poker!:insomnia:

DNF has to be VERY open to Player FREEDOM like duke3d was...I could run off and spend a few mins in a shop f-in around with stuff...

I mean COME ON! waiting 10 years for another half life...is that really what you WANT!??? I'll pass! Seriously, if thats the case...I've been wasting my time on these boards!

But I think we are all expecting something short of AMAZING and REVOLUTIONARY in dnf...carring on the torch that duke3d had....a true innovative FPS!:cool:

[Commando Nukem]

HL2 was a VERY straight forward linear game....:mad:
I did not personally like it...the vechiles were a blast to drive around in...but I felt like I was playin through a basic fps...nothing speacial....nothing great...over hyped!

DNF cant just be a HL2 with playable slot machines/video poker!:insomnia:

DNF has to be VERY open to Player FREEDOM like duke3d was...I could run off and spend a few mins in a shop f-in around with stuff...

I mean COME ON! waiting 10 years for another half life...is that really what you WANT!??? I'll pass! Seriously, if thats the case...I've been wasting my time on these boards!

But I think we are all expecting something short of AMAZING and REVOLUTIONARY in dnf...carring on the torch that duke3d had....a true innovative FPS!:cool:

And then realism comes and slaps ya in the face. While you have been waiting nine years. Duke Nukem Forever as we will see it is only three to four years of age. Its a standard games age meaning its a gonna be what you would probably not expect. Standard, pushing interactivity. Its not gonna "Split the atom" all over again, cause hey. Its just a game. What matters is that it be fun, exciting, entertaining and just damn cool. I mean we all know that regardless, it will still be an AWESOME day when Duke Nukem Forever is gold

[The Red Slaughter]

If DNF comes out and is cool, then... believe me, THE UNIVERSE WILL BE SPLITED, NOT JUST SOME LAME-ASS ATOM!

[Monkey Butler]

DN3D seemed to have a lot of freedom, but I think that was just because of its more creative and varied design - instead of walking through a bunch of hallways, hitting a switch and backtracking to the door it opened, you'd cross a street, enter a porno shop, get into the private booths, blow up a building etc. etc. You were still doing the same old thing, collecting keys, hitting switches etc. but because it was varied it seemed like there was more freedom.

Nowadays I don't think people would fall for that - after games like Deus Ex, just having a part of the street to cross isn't going to cut it in terms of freedom. So what I'd love to see (but understand probably won't happen) is having little side missions or something, so that the aim of a level is still to get from A to B, but along the way you might go into a casino and play blackjack, or help some nurses that are trapped in a hospital, or stop a robbery at bottle shop. That way you've got a showcase for interactivity, because the levels become more like living, breathing worlds, you've got more player freedom because all these thigns would be inessential, and it would give you the opportunity to gain things - maybe the bottle shop owner gives you a new weapon, or the nurses act as allies for you or something.

[Novelle]

Side missions is a cool idea. I think that story is secondary to cool gameplay experience. And giving more freedom to player does not necessary hurt the game story wise.

Like it or not, people will have high expectations for DNF, probably higher than people had for HL2. What they are expecting is Duke3D in much larger scale, and I think that this is why Doom 3 and Quake 4 kinda failed. Those games were closer to Half-Life games than original Doom or Quake games in terms of gameplay. Especially Doom 3 which was supposed to be scary game suffered a lot from this.

Games suffer from heavy scripting, when everything is scripted around the player, he gets the feeling that the whole game world revolves around him. When I walk there a bus comes thru ceiling..

Best example how scripting can kill gameplay experience is AVP games. AVP 1 was scary as sh*t when you were playing as a Marine, because the Aliens just kept coming at you despite what you were doing. In AVP 2 however playing as Marine was not really scary experience at all, because the Aliens were so scripted. You moved into one room, killed few scripted Aliens, and after that everything stopped before you moved into another room with new scripted events to happen for you. Not good.

Of course scripting has worked really well for Valve, but I think that people are getting tired for that style of play. HL2 sold really well mostly because of hype, and it did also ride on success of original HL and Counter-Strike.

Valve released stats for Episode One, which also showed that only really small number of people had finished it despite the fact that it was really short game. Maybe people are already expecting more from HL franchise?

Problem with long development time of DNF is that things that were revolutionary or cool 3 years ago or now, may not be something that players want to see more when DNF is ready, even if its extremely polished game.

Only reason why I played HL2 thru was the physics and gravity gun, but already in Episode One those things did get old really fast. Prey demo was really great because of bold game design ideas, but from Prey 2 I would already expect more. I think that next step in FPS games will be more player freedom, maybe even more destructive environments.

[St. Toxic]

hl2 wasnt a letdown to me, well to most of you because you expect so much and then imagine what it should have and then when it came out and it didnt have what you imagine it was a letdown.

I didn't expect anything at all, except, well, maybe a long track intro -- and I got that. Then about halfway I understood that the whole game was a long track intro for something else, and I sure as hell didn't expect that.

DN3D seemed to have a lot of freedom, but I think that was just because of its more creative and varied design.

It followed the mediocre rpg level formula. You have a field of "places of interest", you check them out, grab the thing that'll make you progress further, and around it goes untill the level is out of content and you leave for the next one.

Nowadays I don't think people would fall for that - after games like Deus Ex, just having a part of the street to cross isn't going to cut it in terms of freedom.

As long as the story is really driving, even a hallway hunt can become pretty exciting. But yeah, rooms that don't advance you further, side corridors with doors unlocked and little interactive things inside -- just make sure the level seems plausible and realistic (don't cramp up the space ) and it'll be alright. Side missions, well, I don't want objectives hanging over my head, but if I'm playing THE GOOD DUKE and there's a "lady in distress" somewhere to the right of the fork, I'll go over there and save her, or whatever.

Scripting

Can become a game killer, agree with you there. Scripted monster spawns bug me out, and forcing a player to watch some event is also pretty fascist. The Prey demo showed monster spawn that you basicly learned to time after your first playthrough, hopefully dnf will keep some distance away from that.

[DavoX]

I guess you don't watch movies then, because the fascist movie directors are forcing you to see what they want you to see.

If there's something that can make DNF a really fun game are it's scripted action sequences.

[FireFly]

Valve released stats for Episode One, which also showed that only really small number of people had finished it despite the fact that it was really short game. Maybe people are already expecting more from HL franchise?
Well, 50% of the players reached the last map, but for some reason only 23% were recorded as reaching the credits, which indicates players are either quitting just before the credits roll, or there's a bug with Valve's stat system.

In any case, we don't have completion figures for other games, so a comparison can't be made.

[Sang]

DNF will be a huge letdown if it's straight-line linear like HL2.

All FPS are linear. You can take different routes in some games, but you always end up at the same point so it's still linear AND NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT ;)

But hey, just because a game is linear like in HL2 it doesn't mean it can't be awesome. It's not like linear is the same as "boring hallways for over 10 hours" or something. FEAR is linear - but have you seen how many people find it to be awesome? Wether a game is linear or unlinear isn't what makes a game good. It depends on many other factors.

[infowars]

BS! I disagree!:D :p

Okay, its a matter of more complex level design in a linear FPS (like DNF) rather then more inventive 'scripted-events'....you CAN have a vast open-ended game for the players to play through...and still have a linear game!

EXAMPLE of HOW:

You pointed out how multiple paths in a level, really doesnt matter which route you take....you end up in the same spot.

If 3drealms designs, lets say, 3 differnt sets of the 'final levels' that the player can PLAY through...that would make the game incredibly replayable! As in, instead of having 3 different endings you can see...having completely different set of LEVELS that duke can arrive at.

EXAMPLE OF THIS:

Lets say, your at the 3rd from the last level, DUKE is on an alien space station

The player can either:

1) Duke finds a small space craft in the bay of the ship...He opens the hatch, and steps in...He flys the craft back to earth...fighting alien aircrafts along the way....once back in Vegas...He fight the boss...END GAME

2) Instead, you find a weird alien-teleportation device on board the ship. You power it 'ON' and walk through it....you get sucked through, and find your self on earth BACK to the time of duke3d...and play through the final level of DUKE3d to win the game and change the course of time forever....END GAME

3) etc....

....the final 3 levels will be completely different, depending on the way duke 'EXITS' the ship.

-understando?

[Sang]

Different endings don't really add too much replay value IMO, it just becomes a matter of saving before the "choice", then reload that save until you've completed all the three endings. If you want to add replay value you really have to add more complex things than that. (like such a choice mid-game or in the beginning, but not at the end)

[St. Toxic]

I guess you don't watch movies then, because the fascist movie directors are forcing you to see what they want you to see.

I can still turn my head left and right at the cinema.

[infowars]

Different endings don't really add too much replay value IMO, it just becomes a matter of saving before the "choice", then reload that save until you've completed all the three endings. If you want to add replay value you really have to add more complex things than that. (like such a choice mid-game or in the beginning, but not at the end)

Kinda what i was saying...but i made the example of a few levels BEFORE the final stage...just to make the point on how it would affect the game.

^^
Yes EXACTLY! Give you an award! If they did this type of complex 'pathway' level desgin and did this from the start of the game...that would be great!

How YOU the player chooses to beat the level will effect what the next level would be! how cool would that be! Every 'play' through the game could be different each time! adding a whole new dimesion to the gaming. they would have to make alot of levels for this to work!:cool:

[The Red Slaughter]

Originally Posted by Sang
Different endings don't really add too much replay value IMO, it just becomes a matter of saving before the "choice", then reload that save until you've completed all the three endings. If you want to add replay value you really have to add more complex things than that. (like such a choice mid-game or in the beginning, but not at the end)


Kinda what i was saying...but i made the example of a few levels BEFORE the final stage...just to make the point on how it would affect the game.

^^
Yes EXACTLY! Give you an award! If they did this type of complex 'pathway' level desgin and did this from the start of the game...that would be great!

How YOU the player chooses to beat the level will effect what the next level would be! how cool would that be! Every 'play' through the game could be different each time! adding a whole new dimesion to the gaming. they would have to make alot of levels for this to work!

And diferent pathways in some levels leading to diferent levels! Say:

You're in a Hotel Hell style map. You have three exits; If you go to the roof, you fight out lots waves of foes on the rooftoof, incluind one-man alien fighters. IN the end, Duke is teleported to a Alien Spaceship, where he fights the boss.

If you get out by the main exit, you get in a big city style level with lots of sniping battles and distant fights. Duke them go to fight the boss in the next level.

If you get out by the sewers, you find lots of protector drones, Protozoids and such there. After that level, you fight against a boss.

[Tim. Just Tim.]

i think multiple endings are more work than theyre worth, unless its something fairly simple right at the end of the game. sticking the 'choice' closer to the front just means they are essentially making 2 different games from the choice onwards. For the same amout of work, I would prefer to have a single ending but the game slightly longer.

[Sang]

i think multiple endings are more work than theyre worth. For the same amout of work, I would prefer to have a single ending but the game slightly longer.

True - The whole "choice of playing" thing shouldn't be that complex. I don't think it should lead to different levels, but it should lead to a different outcome of them. Eventually you'll still get where you'll get with every playthrough.

One thing I really liked in that way in Deus Ex for example, was that the debriefing was different dependant on your style of play. It's really simple, but it did make me want to play through the mission again "what if I do it like that next time?"

Kindof like this;

You're in a Hotel Hell style map. You have three exits; If you go to the roof, you fight out lots waves of foes on the rooftoof, incluind one-man alien fighters. IN the end, Duke is teleported to a Alien Spaceship, where he fights the boss.

If you get out by the main exit, you get in a big city style level with lots of sniping battles and distant fights. Duke them go to fight the boss in the next level.

If you get out by the sewers, you find lots of protector drones, Protozoids and such there. After that level, you fight against a boss.

Apart from the "teleport to alien spacecraft" and "bossfights" thing I would agree with this - Several ways to exit a level, but all those exits will take you to the same next level. Aaand in that level you'll have multiple choices as well..

It just needs some clever level design to pull stuff like this off :)

[Commando Nukem]

True - The whole "choice of playing" thing shouldn't be that complex. I don't think it should lead to different levels, but it should lead to a different outcome of them. Eventually you'll still get where you'll get with every playthrough.

One thing I really liked in that way in Deus Ex for example, was that the debriefing was different dependant on your style of play. It's really simple, but it did make me want to play through the mission again "what if I do it like that next time?"

Kindof like this;



Apart from the "teleport to alien spacecraft" and "bossfights" thing I would agree with this - Several ways to exit a level, but all those exits will take you to the same next level. Aaand in that level you'll have multiple choices as well..

It just needs some clever level design to pull stuff like this off :)


Level 0, go up inside the building, hope the fence into a parking lot, or take the alleyway around back. They all lead into the building, but from different entry points. Giving you a sense of strategy on the second playthrough (since you're learning as you go in your first play, this actually gives you a surefire reason to play two or three more times. EVEN HALF-LIFE mods had stuff like this.)

[Denz]

And then realism comes and slaps ya in the face. While you have been waiting nine years. Duke Nukem Forever as we will see it is only three to four years of age. Its a standard games age meaning its a gonna be what you would probably not expect. Standard, pushing interactivity. Its not gonna "Split the atom" all over again, cause hey. Its just a game. What matters is that it be fun, exciting, entertaining and just damn cool. I mean we all know that regardless, it will still be an AWESOME day when Duke Nukem Forever is gold


They scrapped other version because things were bad, and these bad things wont be in the new DNF.

I don't wait something OMFGWTFREVOLUTIONLOL!!!111 thing, i just want to shoot pigcops in the face and blast memorable bosses, all of that with hilarous and badass onliners/actions made by Duke.

[Commando Nukem]

They scrapped other version because things were bad, and these bad things wont be in the new DNF.

I don't wait something OMFGWTFREVOLUTIONLOL!!!111 thing, i just want to shoot pigcops in the face and blast memorable bosses, all of that with hilarous and badass onliners/actions made by Duke.

Regardless of why they did it, the point was that they DID do it. Hence the wait is irrelevant because the games dev time is different from the time we've spent waiting for the game.

They scrapped the other versions for whatever reasons they scrapped them, they have never given us any sort of detailed reasoning for changing engines, infact I think a lot of forumers have just thrown their own opinions together and with time its become rumor and opinion to truth and reality. :D

[Sang]

Level 0, go up inside the building, hope the fence into a parking lot, or take the alleyway around back. They all lead into the building, but from different entry points. Giving you a sense of strategy on the second playthrough (since you're learning as you go in your first play, this actually gives you a surefire reason to play two or three more times. EVEN HALF-LIFE mods had stuff like this.)

Exactly. It wouldn't be unlinear, but at least interesting enough to replay the whole thing to combine some different routes. Far Cry had stuff like this too, but they all led you through jungles (sometimes through some indoor areas). I'm pretty sure that DNF will allow for more diverse areas (as it takes place in a city, not a tropical jungle)

[DiamondDave]

Just a thought.

Wouldnt it be cool if Duke (depending on the path he took) was put back into the past? For example the beginning of that level, with certain exceptions he'd play the same level over, but have comments like..

"Damn, I think I've been here before" or "Thats gotta hurt... Again..."

But not EVERYTHING would happen exacly as it did the first time through.

For example if he saved a babe on the previous time through, what events would change if he didnt save her in time THIS time.

Just a thought....

[Sang]

...
No. :p

[DavoX]

Different endings don't really add too much replay value IMO, it just becomes a matter of saving before the "choice", then reload that save until you've completed all the three endings. If you want to add replay value you really have to add more complex things than that. (like such a choice mid-game or in the beginning, but not at the end)
I guess you can't turn your head while playing a game, is your room too small?

[Commando Nukem]

...
No. :p

Sang...

You're The Man Now Dawg.

:)

[Drewcifer]

Please don't corrupt this forum with YTMND links...Seriously...Just don't do it.

Don't even think about it.

As for the discussion at hand, I just would like to say that I agree that non-linear gameplay is always better. However, the game you're asking for is not a FPS. You're asking for a FPRPG. Anyone who looks for good sandbox gameplay rather than creative ways to kill stuff in an FPS should perhaps look in the mirror and ask whether FPSs are really their favourite genre. The people who posted in this thread might consider checking out Oblivion or GTA:SA or GTA 4 or Hellgate: London when they come out. These games offer a good dose of action as well as sandbox gameplay.

[hell-angel]

Not really, they just want different paths through a level with multiple ending points in one level that lead to the next level. Which is the same level no matter what ending you took, but you start on a different location. :)

That is completely different then what GTA or Oblivion offer. :)
Personally I think that is a good idea, especially since D3D allready had multiple level paths. Only they lead to the same end. :)

[Sang]

they just want different paths through a level with multiple ending points in one level that lead to the next level. Which is the same level no matter what ending you took, but you start on a different location. :)

? That's not what I said - Maybe I wasn't clear enough. There should be only one start and end point for a map, but multiple ways to travel between them.

It's up to 3DR, of course ;)

[hell-angel]

? That's not what I said - Maybe I wasn't clear enough. There should be only one start and end point for a map, but multiple ways to travel between them.

It's up to 3DR, of course ;)
That was allready in D3D, so I think it is safe to say that DNF will have that as well. ;)

[Sang]

It better does! OR ELSE

[hell-angel]

It better does! OR ELSE
or else what? (just curious)

[Sang]

or else what? (just curious)

Or else I'll go blow up the 3DR office - that's what.:dopefish:

[Otto von Keisinger]

Terrorist!!! :dopefish:


*Red dot appears over Sang's heart. The sharp report of a .30-06 rings out. Sang falls over dead* Tango down!!

[hell-angel]

Or else I'll go blow up the 3DR office - that's what.:dopefish:
I can't let you do that. Because that would put an end to the Duke Nukem games. :mad:

;)

Seriously, they have allways had it in ever since D3D, so I guess we will be allright. ;)

[StainedCheeks]

if you can get on and off your bike that would be cool and allow alot of freedom. but the bike segments might not go that way. just as long as there is bike segments..i think they will give us the Duke on a nice roaring harly type bike segment, heck, for sure!

[St. Toxic]

I guess you can't turn your head while playing a game, is your room too small?

It'd break the immersion.

[Gatinater]

Will we have the feedom to play the funky town melody with the keypads?

[Telee]

I'm not really sure if there will be player freedom or not - the videos made it look like it's one path, yet the screenshots made it look like player freedom... Anyway, I guess we'll find out :wid:

[0marTheZealot]

Creating even two seperate routes to the same ending area (like a fork in the road ending in the same town) requires way too many resources. You have to make both routes compelling, polished and top-notch. And now, do it 6-7 times in the entire game. It's just too much. Valve has near unlimited resources and unlimited time and even they stay away from it. It's very difficult to not only create this sort of gameplay, but even harder to do it right.

Simply accept that most FPS games will be fairly linear. You might have a big arena or two to battle baddies in a couple different ways or optional content (like the buggy section of HL2, which was damn cool), but it'll end up as a corridor/linear shooter disguised in a few different ways.

[Sang]

Creating even two seperate routes to the same ending area (like a fork in the road ending in the same town) requires way too many resources. You have to make both routes compelling, polished and top-notch. And now, do it 6-7 times in the entire game.

Urh, it'll require you to do some more level design and stuff like that - It's just a part of making games, nothing to go "IT'S IMPOSSIBLE" over. I mean, look at Deus Ex for example. Now don't say "OMG THAT WAS IN 2000" because both Deus Ex and DNF are using the same engine at it's core, and apart from new features and upgraded graphics there isn't too much difference in how the versions of the Unreal Engine work.

[baff]

But hey, just because a game is linear like in HL2 it doesn't mean it can't be awesome. It's not like linear is the same as "boring hallways for over 10 hours" or something. FEAR is linear - but have you seen how many people find it to be awesome? Wether a game is linear or unlinear isn't what makes a game good. It depends on many other factors.

FEAR is really boring though. I can't actually remember playing it. Only the great AI and the end scene.

Then there is about 30 hours of faceless corridor action in between that is lost on me.
Imagine replaying it. I spoke to some other people who played it, they were discussing the plot. Apparently I had to kill the little haunted girl to complete the game. And yet I have absolutley no recollection of doing so. It was just a tunnel trance.

I much preferred COD2 with it's occaisonal non linear levels. Open plan in which you could complete your own way.

[Xerxes]

They've been doing it for 10 years so I don't think they're worried about how long and hard something is...

[robenestobenz]

I guess you don't watch movies then, because the fascist movie directors are forcing you to see what they want you to see.

If there's something that can make DNF a really fun game are it's scripted action sequences.
You can't be telling me you are so obtuse that you find such a vulgar symmetry between games and films.

Also, he's talking about scripted enemy spawns by the way. Not about stripping out action sequences, which though repetitive can offer carefully constructed situations more or less impossible through normal design.


Different endings don't really add too much replay value IMO, it just becomes a matter of saving before the "choice", then reload that save until you've completed all the three endings. If you want to add replay value you really have to add more complex things than that. (like such a choice mid-game or in the beginning, but not at the end)I totally agree. Except you'd need a bucket of replayability to get most to play through a whole game three times for this.

For what it's worth, I think these days major and numerous divergences (a la Deus Ex) are far too costly to consider. Especially with the acute focus on graphics and polish, the sacrifices in these areas will be noticed.

On that note, I thought Deux Ex was absolutely excellent. With better writing, it would have been sublime.

As far as DNF goes, I hope it does have the minor route alternatives of the FPS games of old. Just a few different passages through the levels ultimately leading to the same end did wonders for a feeling of freedom - it just seems backwards to me that most FPS games have become more restricted from the times of Doom et al. Sure the key/switch hunts have been embellished as mission objectives, but the the compromise as far as the audiences choice goes has counterbalanced this progress in my opinion.

[StainedCheeks]

i think it will be a scripted, yet awwsuummm fps. player freedom like gta? who needs it? we got the duke and like i stated above the most freedom iam hopeing for is to get on and off your bike or whatever your on and cruise around taking ur time and following the set paths. me be thinking that be the limit to playa freedom.

[Commando Nukem]

They've been doing it for 10 years so I don't think they're worried about how long and hard something is...

*bursts into laughter* AHAHHAHAHAA.... SIZE MATTERS.

hee.... Im sorry what were we talkin' about?

Oh yeah! Freedom of player speech... or was it... wall walking? Bah.

player freedom FTW(post saving on-topicness)

[hell-angel]

SIZE MATTERS.


No it doesn't. Quality matters, size does not matter. :)

[Commando Nukem]

No it doesn't. Quality matters, size does not matter. :)
Actually in all seriousness, how much space this thing is gonna take up does matter as far as knowledge goes :)

[hell-angel]

Actually in all seriousness, how much space this thing is gonna take up does matter as far as knowledge goes :)
Well, atm it take approx. 9GB of HD space uncompressed. But there are some stuff that still has to be removed and also added if you must now. (GB commented on this a while ago.)

Other than the fun of knowing this, it has no use atm. ;)

[Sang]

^Yes it is :( Otherwise I'll have to format my HD, or better yet, get a new one.. Or well, ASK MY DAD to do any of those 2 things :P

But let's not go offtopic.

[Denz]

Yet i need my own stupid credit card so i won'tneed to ask my dad. Because i have the money, but it's cheaper on internet.

[hell-angel]

^Yes it is :( Otherwise I'll have to format my HD, or better yet, get a new one.. Or well, ASK MY DAD to do any of those 2 things :P

But let's not go offtopic.
Well, it's not out yet, so don't worry about it just yet. ;)

But size matters or does not matter has nothing to do with how good a game is imo. :) ;)

[Monkey Butler]

Multiple endings always felt like a gimick to me - it just meant that you would have to save the game at a certain spot and reload after viewing the ending. It was almost like a choose-you-own-adventure book: I read a book because I want to know the story the author has to tell; I don't care that I don't have any input into its development or conclusion.
It's especially bad when it comes to sequels and you jsut have to kinda guess which ending the developers are going with.

But having said that, it's not so difficult to structure the story and design the levels in such a way as to give the player a degree of freedom. Duke3D was great for its time in this regard - the air ducts, use of the jetpack, the sewers - all of these things gave the player freedom within the levels, or at least the illusion of it.

The secret areas also helped a lot in this regard IMO - it encouraged exploration, and that goes a long way towards giving the illusion of freedom, because you don't feel like you're being shunted down endless corridors.