Max Payne: Things that sucked [Archive]

MrEricSir

01-07-2002, 03:16 PM

While Payne was one of the best games I've ever played, there were some aspects of the game that I feel need improvement. If you'd like to constructively critize the game, please feel free to add to this thread.

Here are my Payne peeves:
 Although the game is highly interactive, the story is static. There should be opportunities for changing the storyline as you go. The characters look like they're ice skating when they run. This always bothers me. When Max takes his gun out, his hand gesture is really bizarre. It looks like his hand isn't attached to his wrist. The game needs to load faster. Even UT loads faster than Max Payne on my computer.

Co11

01-07-2002, 03:55 PM

things that rocked in Max Payne....

* One solid great susenseful story

* Great AI that uses team work to attack you like the rogue cop you are.

* The best tools for mod design

* Quick save... Oh my God if I didn't have quick save in Max Payne, it'd be thrown out like Deus Ex was... Not that quick save is the only saving grace of Max Payne, buuut, some parts are might difficult for the first time. Deus Ex was hard too, but was there a quick save? no, there was a save feature that saved EVERY minute detail and it took for ever... this made me forget what I was doing in the game..

Tonebender

01-07-2002, 04:00 PM

The things you pointed out didn't bother me much, personally. I'm not sure if I'd want a non-linear story. I'd just go crazy all the time during the first play and wonder if "that other way" would have been better and/or cooler. But of course, it would add more replay value. Here are some things I missed:

-- Innocent bystanders. The people in Max Payne were either enemies (thugs, bosses, etc.), friends (Alex, the subway guy and Max's family) or junkies. It was done realistically (people stayed inside because of the snow storm, and many building were abandoned), but still, I'd like to see some more anonymous figures on the streets, like regular civilians, harbour workers, bums, innocent hotel personnel running for cover, etc. etc.

-- More secrets/unnecessary places. It's exciting to stumble upon apartments, rooms, etc. finding ammo and funny/interesting things.

-- More stealth. I'd like to sneak up closer on enemies.

-- Flamethrower! images/icons/grin.gif

Co11

01-07-2002, 04:03 PM

ok, I agree with bystanders... (which is why there are some in my levels..) but, the whole issue of punishing for killing those bystanders comes to mind, that'd make the game too complicated.... We're dealing with mindless shoot 'em up games, not something like command and conquer that requires a bit more thought...

Ghast

01-07-2002, 04:31 PM

Things that suck. Can't help but think of Tomb Raider. Wish MP allowed more opportunities for detective work. Crawling around in tight places, climbing chainlink, that sort of stuff. As much as I loved the game and the opportunity to create a MOD, it was a bit of a cheat. A fresh as all hell dodge and shoot but at a price. The more a game approaches art, the more anything that doesn't belong begins to stand out.

#1 irritation IMHO boxes that smash apart like balsa wood or victim of a cartoon termite! And for what? To get some ammo or painkiller that was getting ready to be shipped without any packing??? *LOL* Makes much more sense to get ammo/painkillers from the thugs you clobber. Leave the disappearing box trick for when a handy welding tank becomes an explosive rocket - now that was totally cool!!!!

Oh, and I agree, more disinterested and/or interferring bystanders like that guy who opens the subway office. Ignor or kill certain innocents and face a slightly askew storyline? Maybe just block the politically incorrect shot with a cut away to Max firing into the air instead???

Sample_H5-180

01-07-2002, 08:33 PM

Okay, tell you what. If you guys make a game as awesome as Max Payne, but without these "peeves", then I'll shut up. But I'm really tired of morons rambling on about what annoyed them about otherwise AAA games. I mean, I agree. There definately were some odd things about it that took away a little of the magic. But the game was 99.8% beautiful, realistic, and fun. If you're complaining about the way boxes break, you really have to find something better to do with your time. So, sure, come on. Make your own game exceeding in excellence from MP, and I'll eat my words with a cow patty. But until then, quit yer bitching and maybe talk about the GOOD points.

Steve

01-07-2002, 10:37 PM

Although the game is highly interactive
Interactive? I must have missed something.

biXen

01-08-2002, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by MrEricSir:
Even UT loads faster than Max Payne on my computer.
[/list]

Where in heaven's name did you find that comparison? UT is an old crap game, of course it loads faster than Max Payne which has photorealistic textures and beautiful looking levels...

Steve: He played the game with an open mind probably, not a tight-assed twisted VE fan vision like yourself... Only Duke3D surpasses Max Payne in interactivity in the Action/FPS/TPS genre. In Half-Life nothing happened no matter what you shot, in Max Payne it does. You actually feel like you are where you are, that's the importance of interactivity. They had some limits though, it should still look as beautiful as it does, but also run on slower machines...

And yes, many roads to go down is irritating in action games... You just want to move on and get the story delivered, not have ten different stupid ways one incident could end. Play RPG's if you want that, they are easier to make that way.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: biXen ]

Ghast

01-08-2002, 02:16 PM

No flashlight! *WEG* Its funny how as you work more and more with the MaxED tool you start to realise how carefully constructed the game is. And as much as I would have loved to play the cop with a flashlight, implementing such a feature would probably have severe frame rate problems???

So too the 'hinted' at pre-story threads: Max had been looking for leads as part of the DEA for three years before a break in the case. It would be interesting to see how he got along with his life then in a MOD maybe.

Only then did Max began infiltrating the gangs, starting small and working his way up, how long did that take?? Those years?? would also make an interesting MOD perhaps. (Note - I am now reconciled with the assumption that carrying a lead pipe around with you is as much a part of his 'cover' as his funky half unbuttoned shirt, medallion & chain, and slicked back hair)

And of course picking up the pieces after the 'V' case, I am sure an alibi or three could be manufactured for all the 'criminal' ocurrences, so that he could return to the DEA. But what would he rather do?

Max Payne approaches art IMHO - that I should care about his future hopes, dreams & recriminations.

What sucks IMHO is that any future MODs/Total Conversations can either become ironic/satiric and/or introduce anarchronistic and otherwise jarring (distasteful) elements to the saga OR they can add to Max's epic journey! The engine is so carefully built around the specific needs of going gonzo with guns against gangsters.

I pray that others try the later approach, perhaps in much the way Michael Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius character was 'given' and adapted by other New Worlds writers. (Heavy Metal illustrator Mobius' Airtight Garage being one of the most memorable!) so that I look forward to more of Max Payne and little else *G*

Steve

01-08-2002, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by biXen:

Steve: He played the game with an open mind probably, not a tight-assed twisted VE fan vision like yourself... Only Duke3D surpasses Max Payne in interactivity in the Action/FPS/TPS genre. In Half-Life nothing happened no matter what you shot, in Max Payne it does. You actually feel like you are where you are, that's the importance of interactivity. They had some limits though, it should still look as beautiful as it does, but also run on slower machines...
Max Payne has no interactivity. None. 0. Zip. I knew someone would insult me. Only Duke3d surpasses Max Payne in interactivity? Played Deus Ex? I guess not.

If your going to get into a argument, don't resort to personal insults. It's what I think - can you not see that? images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Homoludens

01-08-2002, 09:47 PM

Oh, there is a good amount of interactivity in the game. It's just that they have nothing to do with gameplay, least of all the story and plot. Yes, you can switch faucets on and off, flush toilets (which is a huge joke considering how many reviewers actually thought it was cool), and open drawers, but how do these actions fit into the grand scheme? Hopefully the sequel will truly take advantage the potential.

Ghast

01-08-2002, 10:14 PM

Brought back memories of Duke Nukem, almost expected Max's health to improve from taking a drink or relieving himself *LOL* Can't recall any mirrors in MP, a big surprise in Nukem, need a mirror script for MP2, iz pozzible?

biXen

01-09-2002, 01:46 AM

Ghast: Mirrors are hell to make for 3D engines.

Steve: It's not about opinion, it's about interactivity. What's so interactive about Deus Ex? It's an actionRPG, of course you can do things. But Max Payne is interactive for it's genre. An action game shouldn't be more interactive than that. You are supposed to shoot people, not make coffee on the coffeemachine...

Shams

01-09-2002, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by MrEricSir:

Here are my Payne peeves:
 Although the game is highly interactive, the story is static. There should be opportunities for changing the storyline as you go.
Agreed. If it took ages to make the game...such option could've been included...it would've given higher replayability. Or maybe different many endings (like Silent Hill). I never liked the story but the engine was good. Well such can be expected in MaX Payne 2...I hope.

Steve

01-09-2002, 03:08 AM

An action game shouldn't be more interactive than that.If so, the action game genre is going to die. DNF is going to have very high interactivity and guess what? It's a action game not a RPG like Deus Ex.

Just because it's an action game doesn't mean it has to have a "set amount" of interactivity. Think outside your square.

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Steve ]

Guest

01-09-2002, 06:00 AM

Ya, one thing i just couldnt stand in Max Payne was the arms. The arms looked too "wobbly" or something like that, the arms just dont seem realistic, and thats the most unrealistic part of his body

i agree that there should be more interactivity with people rather than just having them go at you or asking you to help em

Crim

01-09-2002, 06:05 AM

Atleast you got to open showers and faucets images/icons/rolleyes.gif

biXen

01-09-2002, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by Steve:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />An action game shouldn't be more interactive than that.If so, the action game genre is going to die. DNF is going to have very high interactivity and guess what? It's a action game not a RPG like Deus Ex.

Just because it's an action game doesn't mean it has to have a "set amount" of interactivity. Think outside your square.

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Steve ]<hr /></blockquote>There's a difference between freedom and interactivity. I like freedom like in GTA3. But it's a whole different game. Max Payne is mostly powered by it's story and bullet-time ignited gameplay. GTA3 is following a mafia story, but you can pretty much do what you want as it's a big city and the graphics are also made that way.

Duke is gonna rock, I'm sure of it. But the interactivity isn't really needed. I don't like things like flying stupid flying saucers. I'd like to drive a car in Max Payne though, that's about the only thing I'd miss. What do you miss interactivity with exactly? Do you want to make coffee or do the dishes? Or what? He's hunted, he's not going to stop and talk to someone shooting at him, it's not Oprah in New York, it's a fugitive. You people seem to forget the whole concept of the game. Topics like this are irritating and trollish IMO. Whatever's bad and good, it's there for a reason. If you consider compared to a bad game by bad developers they are there because it's a bad team, bad idea or whatever...

Steve

01-09-2002, 08:50 AM

But the interactivity isn't really neededTell 3D Realms that. Interactivity is needed. Overwise it will be "just another FPS"

Running though a level shooting bad guys is boring (why do you think Max Payne has ZERO replay vaule?) You need different paths to finish a level, mirrors, lights that you can shoot out - the simple things that game developers brush aside.

You have a narrow mind if you think "interactivity isn't really needed"

Hamster

01-09-2002, 09:27 AM

Max Payne was mostly an in-door game with a few outdoor areas, so the engine was created and opimized for this from the start. Driving cars would be cool, but that would require a whole different engine. Same goes for the more complex task of creating a non-linear design. But I guess many people liked it the simple way. Non linear design as in DeusX would require the player to think before shooting. Wich was something I never did, nor wanted to, in Max Payne.

I think there's a misconception of what's actual interactivity. In case with MP, it's about bulletholes and damage effects I would belive. It's true Max can't pick up stuff and talk to people, but so what. The only thing that surprised me in MP, was that you couldn't blow up toilets. For some reason I expected that, since it was overseen by 3DR. In Duke3D it was an important part of the gameplay. You could pee in the bowl to gain a little health, then shoot the bowl and drink the water... It's such a funny Duke thing to do. Maybe Max tried to act a little more "mature"? But I never really missed that in the game, busy as I was shooting gangsters while looking cool. To bad there was no mirrors. Another thing to add next time. There was some parts I would liked to see more of. Like that wall falling down when you opened the door. It gave me a huge kick, good god how I laughed. That was great interactivity in my book. More of this next time.

And maybe more civilians to interact and talk to, in real time, instead of watching the cartoons.
I would liked to talk to Mona and that russian dude. I understand the design decisions with the cartoons. People are stupid, they want to kill everything, and that way destroy the story. A simple way to prevent the silly gamer from killing the "helpers" and the basic story characters in the game, could be to make them blow your brain out immediately if you start shooting at them, and you'll have to reload... Interacting with the russian gangster and Mona would be done easy that way. Another way would be to make Max go into a special mode. For example like in "Undying", where the player stand still but with the ability to move his view of sight with the mouse. In any case, the player must be forced to relax. Simply because the story must remain intact in a linear game with a pre-set story. It's static, yes, but not everyone like it the DeusEx way. Max Payne is not the thinking mans game. It *was* a bit over-simplified for my taste. I would liked to see 2 ways to approach a room full of gangsters, not just one single door. Also, beeing dropped straight into a room with gangsters and forced to start shooting right away came as a shock. (like with the spaghetti- brothers at the hotelroom. Or what they was called.) It would felt better to talk to them in a passive mode first, that could alert me for what was to come. The way it happened in the game, it was like beeing teleported into it. Same goes for the burning restaurant. I just stood there and it started burning. It would have been nice with a cool intro to this. As much as I enjoyed the game, I felt it was a bit canned. But that's about all I can think of. Most parts did it just super for me.

Superczar

01-09-2002, 10:12 AM

Painskins, wounds, whatever they are technically called, this game lacked bigtime and needed bigtime, a very important feature I think that should not have been passed on. I shoot a guy in the face with a shotgun and he looks the same???????????? 5-6 years ago that would have passed, but now it should be a standard thing...

Hamster

01-09-2002, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Steve:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />But the interactivity isn't really neededTell 3D Realms that. Interactivity is needed. Overwise it will be "just another FPS"

<hr /></blockquote>In DNF, it's needed, absolutely. But not in a straightforward joe sixpack game like Max Payne.
Simplicity was what made it sell well, and so easy to port. So it sold as hotcakes, and most people never got stuck. Everyone could play it straight out from the box.

But with DNF, people expect it to be interactive.
It's a very different concept. The gameplay should still be easy, but on a more dramatic level. Max Payne was a low budget tarantino flick ala "Reservoir Dogs", Duke is more like a huge hollywood thing ala "independence day". Both are supercool, but only the latter need the big bangs.

Hamster

01-09-2002, 11:05 AM

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Hamster ]

MrEricSir

01-09-2002, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by biXen:
You just want to move on and get the story delivered, not have ten different stupid ways one incident could end.I do? I don't think so. I if I wanted that, I'd just watch a movie. All action movies are exactly the same, so it wouldn't matter which one I watched.

The same problem has been plauging 3d action games since Wolf3d -- there isn't any real interactivity. What you do is of no consequence. You either die or you don't, and if you do die, you just load your saved game and try again. It's just tedious, it isn't really fun.

sir_plague

01-09-2002, 03:53 PM

The mobsters/enemies' reactions were bland. I don't really dig it when I shoot people at close range and all that happens is the enemy model falls over, a little bit of blood sprays out, and a "ARRGGGHHH" sound plays. I'd really wish they would've at least incorporated some sort of skin-changing sequence.

Basically, I agree with superczar. 5 or 6 years ago that would've passed, but not now.

Also, there really wasn't that much interactivity in my opinion. Turn a faucet on, hit a switch and a platform moves, flush a toilet, play a slot machine, open doors, go up and down in elevators. That's pretty much it. Seeing these things happen through all those levels over and over again just gets boring. My brother played the first 5 levels of Max Payne, loved the story pretty much, but stopped because he said it was just the same thing over and over again. I totally agree. Different levels and settings, yet nothing "interesting" really happens in the game to just make you say "Whoa, didn't see that comin'." and keep playing. (I did say whoa to some parts in the story, and the bullet-time, but other than that.. I didn't)

Don't get me wrong, it's a great game -- infact one of the best games I have ever played; however after playing it once you really kinda get bored.

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: sir_plague ]

biXen

01-10-2002, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by MrEricSir:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by biXen:
You just want to move on and get the story delivered, not have ten different stupid ways one incident could end.I do? I don't think so. I if I wanted that, I'd just watch a movie. All action movies are exactly the same, so it wouldn't matter which one I watched.

The same problem has been plauging 3d action games since Wolf3d -- there isn't any real interactivity. What you do is of no consequence. You either die or you don't, and if you do die, you just load your saved game and try again. It's just tedious, it isn't really fun.<hr /></blockquote>If you read a single review you would see that Max Payne and I quote "plays like an action movie". So why the hell do you complain when you get exactly what you want? I've never seen a movie that has 10 endings, and 10 endings is REALLY stupid. I don't want to play Silent Hill 2, 5 times just to see the different endings, and it's also damn annoying to not know how it could have ended, and that you can **** up on your way to the end. AND, you tell a ten times better story when it's linear. Period!

Hamster: Amen... (To your long post)

Hamster here has understood the concept. You get what you pay for. There's two things I'd like though. A replay, and GOOD painskins. They couldn't get good painskins done, so they skipped it. Simple as that.

Hamster

01-10-2002, 03:50 AM

That's right.

The way I see it, there's two basic ways to design a 3D game story. One is the movie way, the other is the reality way. The movie way is linear, because a movie is just that. The goal is to imitate a movie.

The story remains intact, the game is basically linear, and theres no options to change the story. Max Payne is a perfect example on this. It is a playable movie.

The reality way give you the option to do whatever you want, just like in the real world. This is the way Deus Ex was constructed, and Warren Spectors philosophy. The goal is to imitate the real world. It's non-linear and the player should be given as much freedom as possible. Naturally, this is very complicated.

The developer must decide one of these ways, or else it would take ten years to make the game. Max Payne had a strong focus on graphics, style and movie effects, and did this part extremely well. They even made their own engine.

Deus Ex kept it's focus on freedom and interaction, and did this part exceptionally well.
The graphics were secondary. They used the exsisting UT engine and spendt their time on complex gameplay.

Both games was done within a reasonable time frame, and both reached their goals just super. Both games are perhaps the best in their class.

There is no game that looks as good as MP while playing as Deus Ex, simply because it would have taken up to much time and resources.

I am looking forward to the next generation.
Deus Ex 2 won't be out until 2003+. I think this game has the potential to break some serious new ground. Looking good, playing good. But then again, not everyone want total freedom. And then there's DNF coming, hopefully...I think DNF will have it's mighty foot in the movie category, but with no compromises like cartoons and cinematics.

This is the way I use to view 3D games, and therefor I never expect everything from them.

Thriller

01-10-2002, 03:54 AM

Originally posted by Sample_H5-180:
Okay, tell you what. If you guys make a game as awesome as Max Payne, but without these "peeves", then I'll shut up. But I'm really tired of morons rambling on about what annoyed them about otherwise AAA games. I mean, I agree. There definately were some odd things about it that took away a little of the magic. But the game was 99.8% beautiful, realistic, and fun. If you're complaining about the way boxes break, you really have to find something better to do with your time. So, sure, come on. Make your own game exceeding in excellence from MP, and I'll eat my words with a cow patty. But until then, quit yer bitching and maybe talk about the GOOD points.Someone needs to stop bitching just for the sake of bitching.

Eing

01-10-2002, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by Tonebender:

-- Flamethrower! images/icons/grin.gif Get a mod to fix this one images/icons/smile.gif
Just get AlienStarter 0.3 or Project-X from somewhere(atleast from Max Payne Center)...
http://www.maxpaynecenter.com

MrEricSir

01-10-2002, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by Thriller:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sample_H5-180:
Okay, tell you what. If you guys make a game as awesome as Max Payne, but without these "peeves", then I'll shut up. But I'm really tired of morons rambling on about what annoyed them about otherwise AAA games. I mean, I agree. There definately were some odd things about it that took away a little of the magic. But the game was 99.8% beautiful, realistic, and fun. If you're complaining about the way boxes break, you really have to find something better to do with your time. So, sure, come on. Make your own game exceeding in excellence from MP, and I'll eat my words with a cow patty. But until then, quit yer bitching and maybe talk about the GOOD points.Someone needs to stop bitching just for the sake of bitching.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed. His "argument" is so lacking in logic that there's no way to follow it anyhow.

Mugg

01-10-2002, 04:36 PM

Love all the fan boys around here who wont accept any criticism of the game. People have opinions of the game and just because their opinions are different doesnt mean that they're wrong.

All the levels were a straight line. No thinking involved. Maybe some here like that but even a little variety would've been good. Having said that, the levels were excellently textured and felt like it was NY or other major cities.

It's not about having ten endings that's important, it's how you get to your one (or maybe two or three) ending(s). Like in the subway: You have to drive the train through the wall and the bad guys here that and come running out at the end of the tunnel. What if you found the key to open that gate at the end of the hallway and snuck up on those bad guys? Having the option to do that is what makes a game fun.

[edit]

I agree with hamster's post. I think though that MP could mix a little more of the reality than they currently have.

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: Mugg ]

biXen

01-11-2002, 02:17 AM

Mugg: don't you think it's obvious yourself? Ramming a train through the wall is slighty cooler than opening a door with a key, and sneaking up isn't Max Payne. I can't understand how you don't understand that... that's what it's all about...

biXen

01-11-2002, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Mugg:
ok, i've rammed the train through the f***ing wall a dozen times and it's lost its coolness. Do you get that? Do you understand the same thing over and over gets boring???

It's comes down to whether 3drealms/remedy wants their fans to remain interested in their singleplayer longer than two weeks or if they're going to depend on mods to take that up for them. And judging by Max Payne, the mod scene is not too great.Judging by your patience your Mrs isn't gonna be very happy with you...

Anyway, I haven't even played that train thing more than twice, and I'm a "fanboy", so what's the problem? You play the cool areas again, or you just play again for the hell of it and it doesn't matter where you are. Max Payne isn't about puzzles, it's about wiping scum of the earth in a creative way. Now, I'll just finish this post with the USMC's new working orders...

"It's God's responsibility to forgive Bin Laden.

It's our responsibility to arrange the meeting."
the United States Marine Corps

Mugg

01-12-2002, 12:38 AM

ok, i've rammed the train through the f***ing wall a dozen times and it's lost its coolness. Do you get that? Do you understand the same thing over and over gets boring???

It's comes down to whether 3drealms/remedy wants their fans to remain interested in their singleplayer longer than two weeks or if they're going to depend on mods to take that up for them. And judging by Max Payne, the mod scene is not too great.

Mugg

01-12-2002, 08:50 PM

different strokes for different people i guess.

MrEricSir

01-14-2002, 03:40 PM

Another thing that sucks about Max Payne is how all the levels are the same. You shoot a guy, then you shoot another guy. Then you walk into a room and shoot a bunch of guys! Wow! At least the visuals are different (unlike, say, Half-Life.)

This is what really turned me off from Payne the most, and is the reason I'll never bother to finish the game.

Makaveli

02-04-2002, 08:46 PM

<biXen> UT is an old crap game

UT is old...but it is NOT crap.

I think max payne loads faster than UT...UT took FOREVER to load, not map changes, but starting up the game, max payne takes mere seconds.

SkavenRMD

02-05-2002, 01:16 AM

You have to drive the train through the wall and the bad guys here that and come running out at the end of the tunnel. What if you found the key to open that gate at the end of the hallway and snuck up on those bad guys? Having the option to do that is what makes a game fun.Philosophically;

Options like this would involve missing stuff elsewhere. If you snuck through the gate, you would miss rescuing the transit police officer, the shootout in the control room and driving the train through the barricade.

Either you pack the levels full of contents all the way through and make the route through it linear (giving an intense experience), or you create an open level and spread the stuff across a wide area, hoping the player will have fun with at least some of it.

If you want the player to have as much fun in a wide open level than in a linear level, you have to pack a lot of stuff into it. It means a huge amount of work of which only 10% is going to be 'used' when the player plays through the level. As Hamster pointed out, this is what they did in Deus Ex, and it is a remarkable achievement.

However, even linear levels can be made more fun by structuring them differently and adding some star puzzles, monster mazes and playgrounds.

Star Puzzle = The player must complete a number of sub-quests, returning to the 'central node' after each one, before s/he can continue. Example: the tentacle monster / rocket test fire area in Half-Life.

Monster Maze = A 'side alley' in the level that can be explored, containing bonuses and enemies, but is not crucial for completing the level. Example: The maze in the 2nd level of Doom.

Playground = An area where the player can stay a little longer and have fun with interactive elements and spawning enemies before moving on. Example: The weapon factory in Shadow Warrior.

biXen

02-05-2002, 02:44 AM

Max Payne... plays like an action movie. Well, I've never seen an action movie where you have 10 endings... thank God... one is enough in most cases images/icons/wink.gif

STOOPID fookin typo...

[ 02-05-2002, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: biXen ]

MuffinMan

02-05-2002, 05:44 AM

To all of you here who are comparing Max Payne to the likes of Deus Ex, I have to say only this:

Deus Ex didn't sell very well initially. Over time it picked up a few more sales but in reality it's not a 'big' game. Personally, I loved Deus Ex and would brand it as probably my favourite FPS experience of all time.

But unfortunately, I'm one of those minority gamers who likes to play games such as Deus Ex and System Shock. Most gamers prefer to play shorter, simpler games. Why else do you think that Return to Castle Wolfenstein is selling so damn well? It's short, it's boring, it's (funnily enough) graphically weak, it's linear, it's poorly plotted and it's selling 100's of 1000's of copies.

In fact, it's selling in numbers that Deus Ex 2 can only dream of.

Max Payne is an awesome example of a story (cliche'd though it is) driven shooter that does bring a couple of new elements to the table. And, rightly so, the sales reflect this. Sure, it's not the 2nd coming of Christ. But it's a good (excellent) game that's packed full of that thing that's so lacking in many games these days.... attention to detail.

Guest

02-05-2002, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by biXen:
Max Payne... plays like an action movie. Well, I've never seen an action movie where you have 10 endings... thank God...Oh, you have to get the special edition DVD for that! images/icons/grin.gif

cache

02-05-2002, 08:12 PM

3D Realms did a brilliant job with this game! It is challenging with plenty of eye candy. Nothing sucked but it would be nice to disable the cut scenes and have a part and chapter listing at game completion so that you can replay your favorite chapters. As mentioned, a few bystanders would add to the experience. Never really used the molatav cocktail and lead pipe. It would be fun to have a few bad guys that you could sneak up behind and crack over the head with the ball bat. :-) I saved at one part of the game in the burning hotel and I was stuck in a corner. I had to go back to the main menu to return to the chapter beginning to get out of the corner and find the correct route.

Great game! cache

Co11

02-05-2002, 11:48 PM

I don't know about y'all.. but I didn't like Deus Ex... One thing is that it was slow on my computer, and at 8oomhz with a TnT 2, that's not acceptable for me.. Also, I didn't like the idea of multiple endings and such... Because I didn't like the story as it was...

I just felt weird when playing it, I guess... Max Payne rocks, because you're less like a problem solver with your mind, and more like a problem solver with your gun... without getting that "serious sam/quake 1/doom" syndrome... Run 'n Gun, I believe the "professional" term is.

RollingBrass

02-06-2002, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by Co11:
I don't know about y'all.. but I didn't like Deus Ex... One thing is that it was slow on my computer, and at 8oomhz with a TnT 2, that's not acceptable for me..Toss the TNT2. It's notorious for being horrible with Deus Ex, and it's acting as a bottleneck for your pc (probably with other games, too). I play at 600mhz (back in the day when it was first released, I was playing on a Voodoo3, although now I have a 64MB Geforce2 GTS), and the framerates were perfect on high detail (I'm talking about with the Voodoo, and the GF2 framerates are even better.

[ 02-06-2002, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: RollingBrass ]

biXen

02-06-2002, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by Leviathan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by biXen:
Max Payne... plays like an action movie. Well, I've never seen an action movie where you have 10 endings... thank God...Oh, you have to get the special edition DVD for that! images/icons/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>Hehehe, like I ever get anything else than DVD's images/icons/wink.gif

Guest

02-26-2002, 11:58 PM

Well, I read through every posting in this thread, now to distill my thoughts into something that won't be too long or boring. images/icons/smile.gif

I joined this BB really for one reason: to say how impressed I am by MP. That having been said (more on that in a moment), I agree with some of the suggestions players have made. A few more bystanders would be a good thing. A flamethrower, yeah, that would be neat. Weird, but neat.

I think it could be a bit more interactive, but then you run the risk of wondering what you missed, or "what if."

All in all, here's the thing to me. I'm no big-time gamer -- I wish I had more time to play. To me, playing a good game is a lot like reading a good book: They both hook you in. You either keep turning pages or playing levels. And MP has kept me playing levels to the point where I'm literally loosing sleep. And my wife's not real happy either. images/icons/cool.gif

Beyond that, Max is an excellent atempt at creating ART. At least to me, it is really beautiful in places, and consistently provides attractive graphics (although that arm thing does bother me). I want my friends to see it, even those who don't game. It's a great example of what a computer is capable of, given the right programming.

Oh, yeah (almost done here, guys): Re. the programming, first I'd like to say that MP runs rock solid on my PC (P4 1.5 gig/ 40 gig HD/ Radeon 7200 video/ FIC VC11 motherboard and running onboard sound/ Win2k). The first game I bought when I assembled this computer was RTCW. Fun game, runs like crap. Quick saves were there, didn't work. Crashed every time I got killed. Etc. The second game I bought was Operation: Flashpoint. You want my copy? It's on Ebay right now. Then I bought Max. Simply put: It's the most impressive combination of story/storytelling/graphics I've seen on a PC, or on my PS1, or on Sega Genesis, or on freakin' Atari! Finally, I'd like to say thanks in the biggest way possible to the guys from 3dRealms and Remedy for caring enough about their customers to monitor comments on these BBs and to make comments. If you want to build loyalty, I can't think of a better way. I'm one loyal customer and fan who feels that way because y'all earned it.

Is MP perfect? No. Neither am I. But damn, it sure is a blast.

-- john

MuffinMan

02-27-2002, 01:25 AM

The first game I bought when I assembled this computer was RTCW. Fun game, runs like crap. Quick saves were there, didn't work. Crashed every time I got killed.That's nothing to do with RtCW. It's a very well coded game. Unfortunately your problem lies with your ATI card and the poor quality drivers (especially in OpenGL... which RtCW uses) for it. images/icons/frown.gif

Mister Funklemeyer

02-28-2002, 04:58 PM

i wanted to drive cars at the bad guys.. and run them down.. and leave bloody tracks and stuff.. haha suckers.
and it would have been cool if the enemies used cover better. like if you shot at them they would automatically run to the best cover, and then there would be cool stand offs.. and it should have been longer. lots and lots.

and i agree! bystanders!! i wanted to murder civies! DIIIIIIE! kill kill kill!

Guest

02-28-2002, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by MuffinMan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />The first game I bought when I assembled this computer was RTCW. Fun game, runs like crap. Quick saves were there, didn't work. Crashed every time I got killed.That's nothing to do with RtCW. It's a very well coded game. Unfortunately your problem lies with your ATI card and the poor quality drivers (especially in OpenGL... which RtCW uses) for it. images/icons/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>MuffinMan:
Yeah, I've read lots of BB comments about the conflicts with that particular combination: Radeon/Win2k and RTCW. Some people said the problems were resolved when they went to Win XP.

Don't get me wrong: I think RTCW is a great FPS and I would recommend it to anyone. But I still am forced to think that MP is just a more stable product. I finally finished Max for the first time images/icons/grin.gif and it ran flawlessly throughout. I can't remember one glitch, not even a minor one.

In my mind, that's worth a round of applause for the team that created MP.

John

SkavenRMD

02-28-2002, 11:53 PM

i wanted to drive cars at the bad guys.. and run them down.. and leave bloody tracks and stuff.. haha suckers. (.....)
and i agree! bystanders!! i wanted to murder civies! DIIIIIIE! kill kill kill!You sound like you wanna play Grand Theft Auto 3.

biXen

03-01-2002, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />i wanted to drive cars at the bad guys.. and run them down.. and leave bloody tracks and stuff.. haha suckers. (.....)
and i agree! bystanders!! i wanted to murder civies! DIIIIIIE! kill kill kill!You sound like you wanna play Grand Theft Auto 3.<hr /></blockquote>It striked me more that he sounds like he should be commited, but whatever you say Skav images/icons/wink.gif

Mister Funklemeyer

03-01-2002, 10:45 PM

but GTA3 sucks.. it has a fun concept.. but it sucks. i want max payne + driver2 + running over and killing!

SkavenRMD

03-02-2002, 01:15 AM

Sucks? How so? You can do everything you wanted to do (run over people with a car, kill bystanders) in it.

ADM

03-02-2002, 01:36 AM

I reckon a cross between GTA3 and Max would be really cool... Max always reminded me of GTA3 anyway.

biXen

03-02-2002, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by Mister Funklemeyer:
but GTA3 sucks.. it has a fun concept.. but it sucks. i want max payne + driver2 + running over and killing!GTA3 sucks? I shall write this off as a firsttimer mistake, but you won't get away with this another time...

SkavenRMD

03-03-2002, 03:03 PM

I reckon a cross between GTA3 and Max would be really cool... Max always reminded me of GTA3 anyway.Hmm.. I guess it'll be a while before computers / consoles have the power to run run a game with a fully explorable city like in GTA, where you can enter every building and see interiors as detailed as in Max Payne, and have the city on-goings and vehicle models of GTA3, and the firefight effects of Max Payne. And hey, how about the environmental damage models of Crisis Zone and Red Faction slapped on top (hoo boy!).

And it'll certainly be a while before any game development team has the power to pull it all together, then polish it to perfection. I tell ya! graemlins/tinyted.gif

Ninja

03-04-2002, 03:01 AM

ADM

03-04-2002, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I reckon a cross between GTA3 and Max would be really cool... Max always reminded me of GTA3 anyway.Hmm.. I guess it'll be a while before computers / consoles have the power to run run a game with a fully explorable city like in GTA, where you can enter every building and see interiors as detailed as in Max Payne, and have the city on-goings and vehicle models of GTA3, and the firefight effects of Max Payne. And hey, how about the environmental damage models of Crisis Zone and Red Faction slapped on top (hoo boy!).

And it'll certainly be a while before any game development team has the power to pull it all together, then polish it to perfection. I tell ya! graemlins/tinyted.gif <hr /></blockquote>I expect something like within 3 years... the way computers/consoles are advancing is incredible (especially computers).

Crisis Zone! The environmental damage on that game is amazing, I've never seen anything like that before. Red Faction is alright but is damage is only for explosives and not bullet damage.. I want a game where you can grab a machine gun and chisel a hole around a door so you can break into any room, or shoot through a wall and shoot the guy in the next room.

You can do the last one in Red Faction but I mean with a machine gun or something. Shooting a spot multiple times can break away the plaster and make a hole.

Ahh dreams images/icons/grin.gif

FullMetalJacket

03-04-2002, 03:50 PM

I want an M14 to blast a door into toothpicks!!!! images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif

SkavenRMD

03-04-2002, 11:16 PM

Can I settle for special love from you Skaven? images/icons/wink.gif Hey, whatever floats your boat, man. graemlins/hhg.gif

I expect something like within 3 years... the way computers/consoles are advancing is incredible (especially computers).Ummm... no. It's not just hardware you need for that. You also need to develop an engine that can run landscapes, occlusion culled & streamed cityscape, and visibility optimized indoors in seamless cooperation.

If you want an entire explorable city with fully detailed interiors, it's an insane amount of stuff. The graphic artists would probably die of old age before being able to model a full city, so you'd need to develop a system that's able to generate rooms inside buildings and furnish them, based on a seed number. The modelers would then just create different 'sets', like office furniture, posh apartment furniture, restaurant furniture, etc, and the engine would use those based on what kind of building it is. To make such a system work so that it actually looks good can take ages to develop.

Making the city alive. Nice challenge in itself. Bystanders, traffic, and hey, since you can enter any building, all citizens should have their own place and commute to work every day, right?

Make it all fully breakable, and you've got a nice amount of extra challenge. How do you save all the changes the player has made into the environment? Even if the game saves were 'procedural' (I don't know if that's the right term, but I mean that only the changes - not the whole city - are saved, then applied to the generated city whenever encountered) and packed, they'd keep growing as the player keeps playing.

Maybe in three years hardware is able to run such a game, but it takes a few years more from there before any company is able to pull something like this through. And after they do, they'll probably slap their foreheads and say, "Damn, we forgot all about gameplay polish and plot while working on this engine!".

For now, I'm afraid you have to settle for less. For games, that do just one or two things really well. If you want other features, play another game. M'kay? images/icons/smile.gif

The Baskinator

03-05-2002, 12:16 AM

Woah, wait a minute...if he gets your special love, then I get it too.

[ 03-05-2002, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: The Baskinator ]

sawn_off

03-05-2002, 02:05 AM

Wait, Basky not loves Skaven, co11, FMJ, Max Payne, Sam Jarvi, and Sam Lake? I'm starting to think Basky's a bit of a.. you know.

Ninja

03-05-2002, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Can I settle for special love from you Skaven? images/icons/wink.gif Hey, whatever floats your boat, man. graemlins/hhg.gif

I expect something like within 3 years... the way computers/consoles are advancing is incredible (especially computers).Ummm... no. It's not just hardware you need for that. You also need to develop an engine that can run landscapes, occlusion culled & streamed cityscape, and visibility optimized indoors in seamless cooperation.

If you want an entire explorable city with fully detailed interiors, it's an insane amount of stuff. The graphic artists would probably die of old age before being able to model a full city, so you'd need to develop a system that's able to generate rooms inside buildings and furnish them, based on a seed number. The modelers would then just create different 'sets', like office furniture, posh apartment furniture, restaurant furniture, etc, and the engine would use those based on what kind of building it is. To make such a system work so that it actually looks good can take ages to develop.

Making the city alive. Nice challenge in itself. Bystanders, traffic, and hey, since you can enter any building, all citizens should have their own place and commute to work every day, right?

Make it all fully breakable, and you've got a nice amount of extra challenge. How do you save all the changes the player has made into the environment? Even if the game saves were 'procedural' (I don't know if that's the right term, but I mean that only the changes - not the whole city - are saved, then applied to the generated city whenever encountered) and packed, they'd keep growing as the player keeps playing.

Maybe in three years hardware is able to run such a game, but it takes a few years more from there before any company is able to pull something like this through. And after they do, they'll probably slap their foreheads and say, "Damn, we forgot all about gameplay polish and plot while working on this engine!".

For now, I'm afraid you have to settle for less. For games, that do just one or two things really well. If you want other features, play another game. M'kay? images/icons/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>I have to admit this Skaven...YOU float my boat baby images/icons/wink.gif

Hehe, just joking.

ADM

03-06-2002, 02:27 AM

posted 03-04-2002 11:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can I settle for special love from you Skaven?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey, whatever floats your boat, man.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I expect something like within 3 years... the way computers/consoles are advancing is incredible (especially computers).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ummm... no. It's not just hardware you need for that. You also need to develop an engine that can run landscapes, occlusion culled & streamed cityscape, and visibility optimized indoors in seamless cooperation.

If you want an entire explorable city with fully detailed interiors, it's an insane amount of stuff. The graphic artists would probably die of old age before being able to model a full city, so you'd need to develop a system that's able to generate rooms inside buildings and furnish them, based on a seed number. The modelers would then just create different 'sets', like office furniture, posh apartment furniture, restaurant furniture, etc, and the engine would use those based on what kind of building it is. To make such a system work so that it actually looks good can take ages to develop.

Making the city alive. Nice challenge in itself. Bystanders, traffic, and hey, since you can enter any building, all citizens should have their own place and commute to work every day, right?

Make it all fully breakable, and you've got a nice amount of extra challenge. How do you save all the changes the player has made into the environment? Even if the game saves were 'procedural' (I don't know if that's the right term, but I mean that only the changes - not the whole city - are saved, then applied to the generated city whenever encountered) and packed, they'd keep growing as the player keeps playing.

Maybe in three years hardware is able to run such a game, but it takes a few years more from there before any company is able to pull something like this through. And after they do, they'll probably slap their foreheads and say, "Damn, we forgot all about gameplay polish and plot while working on this engine!".

For now, I'm afraid you have to settle for less. For games, that do just one or two things really well. If you want other features, play another game. M'kay? Yeah I understand where you coming from.. but we already have engines that do seamless indoor to outdoor transitions and I'm sure at this point it time we will have to just use random model sets for indoor environments (furniture, objects etc)...

It could be possible with enough time and effort but I guess to create a realistic virtual environment (note I said realistic as in random movements and paths from the civilians) would be very hard and nothing that is possible right.

I can definitely see this happening in the future.. In 3 years we will have hardware powerful enough so thats when we will see the first type of game similar to this.

Heck Peter Molyneaux is already developing something similar (the character recieves repercussions for his/her actions by other NPC Characters later down the game)

Co11

03-15-2002, 10:27 PM

sawn_off.... who said anything about baskinator and FMJ? And what are you really trying to say? wanna join the list? hehe plenty o' lovin' for everybody!

The Baskinator

03-15-2002, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by sawn_off:
Wait, Basky not loves Skaven, co11, FMJ, Max Payne, Sam Jarvi, and Sam Lake? I'm starting to think Basky's a bit of a.. you know.You forgot about Petri. images/icons/grin.gif

sawn_off

03-16-2002, 01:22 AM

YUO BSET=KIDING CO111! FMJ posted all the time saying "God I love you Basky". I think we all love Basky. No?

Guest

03-16-2002, 01:28 AM

IMHO, max payne was not at all what it was cracked up to be. the story, while decent for a video game, would have been critisized like crazy in any other format, especailly as a movie. people would attack its matrix-like gunplay and ho-hum story. besides, whether the story is good or not in a game does not matter. i think a great game requires a balance between interaction (does the world react to the player?), visuals (i dont mean good graphics. rather, i mean interesting things happening on-screen on a regular basis, ala halflife), and playability (as in as few limitations as possible. dont let a player feel like the game is being forced upon them). personally, i think story should be important, but not as important as these other things in an action game. look at serious sam 1 and 2, duke nukem 3d, halflife, counterstrike, and unreal tournament if you dont believe me.
IMO, max payne's fun factor suffered in the name of a "good" story.

Ariel

03-16-2002, 06:12 AM

Max's house interior was alwful. Who chose that Wallpaper?! images/icons/shocked.gif

Kev_Boy

03-16-2002, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by biXen:
Max Payne... plays like an action movie. Well, I've never seen an action movie where you have 10 endings ... thank God... one is enough in most cases images/icons/wink.gif

STOOPID fookin typo...Yeah , indeed.

Thriller

03-16-2002, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by biXen:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MrEricSir:
Even UT loads faster than Max Payne on my computer.
[/list]Where in heaven's name did you find that comparison? UT is an old crap game, of course it loads faster than Max Payne which has photorealistic textures and beautiful looking levels...

Steve: He played the game with an open mind probably, not a tight-assed twisted VE fan vision like yourself... Only Duke3D surpasses Max Payne in interactivity in the Action/FPS/TPS genre. In Half-Life nothing happened no matter what you shot, in Max Payne it does. You actually feel like you are where you are, that's the importance of interactivity. They had some limits though, it should still look as beautiful as it does, but also run on slower machines...

And yes, many roads to go down is irritating in action games... You just want to move on and get the story delivered, not have ten different stupid ways one incident could end. Play RPG's if you want that, they are easier to make that way.<hr /></blockquote>I never, ever, thought I would wright something such as this.. Stop asskissing damnit!! images/icons/shocked.gif

No, joe, im sorry, seriously.. I cant help it.. Those posts are driving me nuts! images/icons/shocked.gif

Oh, SOB, Im not taking another step in the Max Payne forum. images/icons/shocked.gif