DEATHWALK nonsense!!!

[sgt Boundford]

Why are people under the illusion that the deathwalk makes the game easier?? If you end up having to do the deathwalk then your crap, the game IS too hard for you! WHY? because you just been killed you plebs!!

[George Broussard]

Yeah, it's really a nonsense argument.

You can achieve the same results with lots of quick saves, even during a boss fight. If you quick save every 10 seconds, you will never lose progress in a game.

There is a massive audience of gamers out there that haven't played FPS games for 10 years. It's about time we started thinking about them.

All DeathWalk does is keep you from losing progress. It does make the bosses a little easier, but then again, most people are frustrated by really hard or complex bosses.

[Orochi Avlis]

You can achieve the same results with lots of quick saves, even during a boss fight. If you quick save every 10 seconds, you will never lose progress in a game.

That's a good point.
I guess people resist change.

[George Broussard]

Well, Prey was designed to be approachable to more than just core FPS players. That's why it has dynamic difficulty and DeathWalk. In hindsight, we should have allowed a slider to core players could make the dynamic difficulty system harder. That was an oversight.

But still, the goal was to have everyone be able to finish the game. The worst thing you can do is make a game and people stop 50% through it. I'd rather more people finish, than not, and error on being too easy, than too hard.

[ishak540m]

In hindsight, we should have allowed a slider to core players could make the dynamic difficulty system harder. That was an oversight.

Patch, maybe? I have like 3 or four games that I want to play before I get to pick up Prey. They've been sitting on my shelf forever. I just don't have much time anymore. George, you can probably relate. Anyway, by I'll probably get to it by the time a patch comes out.

[0marTheZealot]

If yer quick saving every 10 seconds, you don't deserve to play FPS games. A good autosave system won't let you lose more than 5 minutes of playtime and also makes dying a penalty.

The problem with deathwalking, especially on Cherokee, is that you can die without repurcussions and not only that, but death becomes an advantage. Your enemies don't know your back for 2-3 seconds and you can have more than half health when you return. It removes a lot of the challenge and epicness of the game.

[sgt Boundford]

Its just so ironic and stupid that the only people who say the games too easy because of deathwalk are the only people who have been killed on the game.
surely if the game was that easy then they'd hardly ever die and no one would ever get to use the deathwalk!

[sgt Boundford]

I think actually fighting for your continue is alot more entertaining than just pressing the continue button, and thats all the difference is really, it seems to me that people actually want to stare at loading screens instead of continuosly being involved in the game!

[d3ad connection]

Deathwalk 3 was very challenging for me, because I kept losing my health and spirit energy! I have been playing FPSs for years, and yet I've almost always used god mode with them. With Prey, however, I don't have to worry about busting my keyboard anymore, because I don't get pissed off xD So I am pro-Deathwalk.

[George Broussard]

The problem with deathwalking, especially on Cherokee, is that you can die without repurcussions and not only that, but death becomes an advantage. Your enemies don't know your back for 2-3 seconds and you can have more than half health when you return. It removes a lot of the challenge and epicness of the game.
Only from the most hardcore of core players. Your average player will enjoy and appreciate the feature.

I do agree with you, but I just think it only affects a small portion of the overall audience. Most people play games to see and do cool things, and not be challenged at a very high level, by combat.

[9Nails]

I think Death Walk is brilliant. When other games start to use it, it will be described as having a feature "like Prey." Which really sets this game a part from the other designs.

Now if they just had this feature for Multiprey, where if you're playing a "CS-like" game based on "timed rounds" you can continue to play in the death walk world. Maybe earn a health bonus for next round, or something.

[d3ad connection]

I would like to see a Deathwalk-themed map ;)

[0marTheZealot]

Its just so ironic and stupid that the only people who say the games too easy because of deathwalk are the only people who have been killed on the game.
surely if the game was that easy then they'd hardly ever die and no one would ever get to use the deathwalk!

FWIW, I only died two times on normal, once to the first boss, and once because I wasn't paying attention to the enemies and got a grenade tossed in my face. The fact that I know deathwalk is there is all I need to know.

[DavoX]

Only from the most hardcore of core players. Your average player will enjoy and appreciate the feature.

I do agree with you, but I just think it only affects a small portion of the overall audience. Most people play games to see and do cool things, and not be challenged at a very high level, by combat.
George, by all means please try not no include something like spirit walking in DNF...

[Aegeri]

Well, Prey was designed to be approachable to more than just core FPS players. That's why it has dynamic difficulty and DeathWalk. In hindsight, we should have allowed a slider to core players could make the dynamic difficulty system harder. That was an oversight.

But still, the goal was to have everyone be able to finish the game. The worst thing you can do is make a game and people stop 50% through it. I'd rather more people finish, than not, and error on being too easy, than too hard.

Fair enough. But the difficulty is severely disappointing and I really question if the dynamic difficulty does anything at all. It certainly doesn't seem to do a thing regardless of if it is turned off or turned on or not. The game is just as straightforward.

Other than that it's really my sole complaint about the game. So I would say Prey is doing fairly well as things go.

But please ask about a patch for a difficulty slider, ala Sin: Episodes or something. I would very much like to be able to play the game with aliens that have a bit more bite than they do now.

[elsenator]

I am a great fan of deathwalking. The way other fps games are designed(by having to reload) is like reading a book, and when you get to a certain place on a page, you are forced to go back and read the page all over again. It just doesn't make sense, and it tears the flow of the games apart.

[George Broussard]

Ultimately I think a lot of people will come to appreciate DeathWalk once they play Prey, then play their next FPS without it. I went from Prey to Sin Episodes and I loved Sin, but missed the DeathWalk :) I kept forgetting to quicksave and lost a fair bit of progress.

[Aegeri]

Ultimately I think a lot of people will come to appreciate DeathWalk once they play Prey, then play their next FPS without it. I went from Prey to Sin Episodes and I loved Sin, but missed the DeathWalk :) I kept forgetting to quicksave and lost a fair bit of progress.
I only play that on hardcorps mode now ;) You die once and you die forever.

Takes a real effort to finish that without dying. Especially getting the last secret and not dying [Eh Damien eh? Hehe].

[Draco]

Why are people under the illusion that the deathwalk makes the game easier??


Being in a God mode tends to make the game easier. That's really what Deathwalk is. At first, I tried to play the game properly, but a quarter of the way through, I realized I could act like the AI and just run headlong into any situation. After all, I'll just go to the Deathwalk Land - doesn't matter if you even shoot the demons, since health is irrelevent anyways - and return where you are.

There's an easy fix to this. Areas the player can't Deathwalk in. That, or have the player return a slight distance away from where he died.


I think actually fighting for your continue


You don't have to fight for your continue. You jump in the hole, appear in the exact place you died, and fire repeatedly. If your health goes down to zero, and repeat the process.

[brock2621]

I agree with george. I actually like deathwalk. I don't have to reload all the time. And deathwalk in itself gets more intense and difficult. I am getting sucked back to reality with less health because of all the obstructions. I also like to see how long i can last jumping back and forth over the hole :)

[George Broussard]

Draco,

DeathWalk is not God mode at all. It's simply a persistant quick save. You don't lose progress. You still have some time penalty for dying (10 seconds or so - more if you try to shoot Wraiths to get full spirit or health).

But it is personal preference and I suspect will be a topic for spirited debate!

[Razzuel]

Yeah I really enjoy Deathwalk, because before I got Prey I was playing Quake 4 (since I had not completed it yet), and Quake 4 is rediculous. Quake 4 isn't that bad of a game but as I was playing I was like WTF when is this game going to end and whenever I died I had to see if I had saved earlier. If I didn't save earlier I'd get pissed off real quick, but if I did save I would think oh great I have to try and get past this crap again. So Deathwalk then became something very useful. It kept the flow of the game and allowed me to really enjoy Prey. I mean now I don't have to hit Esc and quicksave before I go through each door like I did with Quake 4 which was a pain in the ass.

[Denz]

Ultimately I think a lot of people will come to appreciate DeathWalk once they play Prey, then play their next FPS without it. I went from Prey to Sin Episodes and I loved Sin, but missed the DeathWalk :) I kept forgetting to quicksave and lost a fair bit of progress.


Why not a quicksave systeme that quick saves every time you go below X amount of health? But not dunring a firefight. After it if the player is still alive. I hardly see deathwalk in a game like DNF.

[George Broussard]

Why not a quicksave systeme that quick saves every time you go below X amount of health? But not dunring a firefight. After it if the player is still alive.
Beyond everything else, I like DeathWalk becuase it keeps you in the game and in the game's world and fiction. You aren't jerked out of it by 'dying'. That leads to a consistent experience when you are playing the game.

[Draco]

DeathWalk is not God mode at all


My character can't die. That's God Mode. Or, let's call it 'Nameless One mode'. Although, that game had many sections where he could die...


You still have some time penalty for dying (01 seconds or so, since you only have to jump in the whole and you're at half-health again


Fixed.

I think I should be clear that I don't actively hate Deathwalk. It's an interesting way of preventing frustration. However, in it's current incarnation, it saps any sort of challenge out of the game - you can't die.

[CosmicD]

Only from the most hardcore of core players. Your average player will enjoy and appreciate the feature.

I do agree with you, but I just think it only affects a small portion of the overall audience. Most people play games to see and do cool things, and not be challenged at a very high level, by combat.

Uhuh, indeed, if mario had real hard bosses it would be boring me very soon. it's the depth of gameplay and interactive encounters that make a game more interesting I think. Ofcourse with a little difficulty, but if joe average has to start a level over 200 times than theres a problem I think.

tough games are like you would build a house where only alpinists could get to the frontdoor , we don't want that...

[Denz]

Yes but in a game like prey where it can make a sense, deathwalk is a nice thing. But i hardly see the death walk on any other game. So for other games it needs a new quick save systeme where the player don't have to think of pressing Fkeys. Simply because they forget to.

[Aegeri]

My character can't die. That's God Mode. Or, let's call it 'Nameless One mode'. Although, that game had many sections where he could die...

And the other fellows you had around you could drop dead as well if you weren't watching.

Incidentally: I don't use quick saves in games myself because I view incessant quick saving as cheating and removing the challenge from the game. Deathwalk is like quick-saving that the developer has basically forced on me with no consequence for abusing it. At least in Sin if you quick save a lot you're going to pay for it towards the end.

[Komb.at]

For the guys who don't like it: what's stopping you from just reloading the last savegame when you die/enter deathwalk? nothing eh? problem solved...

[Draco]

For the guys who don't like it: what's stopping you from just reloading the last savegame when you die/enter deathwalk? nothing eh? problem solved...


What's the point of reloading when you can just jump in the hole and be back where you were? It's a case of "why am I bothering to try and play well when I can play like crap and be assured I'll survive".

[Aegeri]

For the guys who don't like it: what's stopping you from just reloading the last savegame when you die/enter deathwalk? nothing eh? problem solved...
Well for one thing, I only ever use it like 1-2 during a play through. Believe it or not, it's almost impossible to die anyway unless you fail to pay attention to a crawler on your bottom or you jump down a pit for amusement [I like pits <3]. Secondly, deathwalk itself doesn't require you to actually do anything. You can just stand there and nothing in particular happens until you get sucked back in. There isn't any particular consequence to dying.

I could technically reload if I felt like it, but the fact is that the games challenge never bothers me to begin with and if it was fixed, the deathwalk would still make the game far too easy unless it came with some sort of consequence.

[Komb.at]

If there would be no deathwalk you'd reload as well. Soooo, if you don't like it, but still use it, i suppose you have no will to ignore this feature. If it'd bother you so much you'd just not use it and reload the game. But i suppose you're to lazy to reload and replay the part from the last savegame. In which case i also imply that it doesn't bother you THAT much anyway.

[Nessus]

I didn't mind it at all. there's nothing worse than realizing you forgot to save and have to do a whole section of a game over, sometimes when that happens to me I shut down the game and come back and play it another time.

[Aegeri]

If there would be no deathwalk you'd reload as well.

Yes, but I'd start back from whatever checkpoints or similar the developers stuck in there. That's quite a difference.

As I said. I don't quicksave at all either. There is a distinct reason for why I do that as I've already outlined.

Soooo, if you don't like it, but still use it, i suppose you have no will to ignore this feature.

You didn't actually read my post did you? The fact that the game is so non-difficult to begin with means deathwalk is almost irrelevant anyway. In the rare case that you die there isn't any particular point in reloading, particularly as the load times are around 40 seconds for some of the complex later levels and it's not as if you're making the game more challenging.

That's the point btw. To make the game more challenging and to encourage the use of more varied tactics to stay alive.

If it'd bother you so much you'd just not use it and reload the game. But i suppose you're to lazy to reload and replay the part from the last savegame. In which case i also imply that it doesn't bother you THAT much anyway.

:rolleyes:

[SuicideRUN]

If there wasn't deathwalk, then there would be people whining that they have to redo half the level everytime they die.

[Aegeri]

If there wasn't deathwalk, then there would be people whining that they have to redo half the level everytime they die.
The solution is called quicksave.

[d3ad connection]

Not everyone is an FPS master - I've been kicked into deathwalk tons of times, mostly from grenades or I am stuck with low health. I'm glad it was there, because I don't like having to goto the menu(which on PC takes a looonnng time to show) and waiting for my saved game to load.

[Aegeri]

I think I had deathwalk twice tops in the whole game from actual combat. Nearly every other time was me stuffing around looking for easter eggs or trying to get into ridiculous spots/places. After the first time it was used I never saw it again really. I see the point of it, but the game is too easy as it is to begin with. If someone gives me the option of ultra hard difficulty and beefs up the HP/Accuracy/Grenade and special ability spam of monsters in the game I could see the point of it. Then it becomes an equalising mechanic rather than just something that replaces the function of quicksave.

[Nukkus]

deathwalk really kicks butt. anyone who complains about it needs to stfu imo.

[d3ad connection]

I think I had deathwalk twice tops in the whole game from actual combat. Nearly every other time was me stuffing around looking for easter eggs or trying to get into ridiculous spots/places. After the first time it was used I never saw it again.

Well, ok. Not everyone is as good as you.

[Draco]

If there wasn't deathwalk, then there would be people whining that they have to redo half the level everytime they die.


Have people ever whined that they had to redo sections of a game once they've died? Nope.

Defenders of Deathwalk: Is there a consequence (an action that has the potential of preventing the player from beating the game) to losing all your health in Prey?

[FrozeN91]

Komb.at: "For the guys who don't like it: what's stopping you from just reloading the last savegame when you die/enter deathwalk? nothing eh? problem solved..."

That's what I thought when I read all this.. :doh:

As for me: I like deathwalking because it keeps me from saving all the time :cool:

[Komb.at]

Defenders of Deathwalk: Is there a consequence (an action that has the potential of preventing the player from beating the game) to losing all your health in Prey?

nope, but there ain't one without deathwalk either. Just reload the game and you're good to go :dopefish:

The amount of consequence without deathwalk is just measured by the number of quicksaves you do.

[0marTheZealot]

A good autosave system would render Deathwalk unnecessary. At the most, you'll lose 3-4 minutes of playing time, but it'll make you value your life far more. The worst part is that Prey isn't even that difficult to warrant deathwalk (should have been in FarCry if you ask me). Prey is even easier than HL2 is on hard (which is a pretty easy game too :().

No one whines about having to reload in any game. That's way it's been since Catacomb 3D. It's like whining water is too wet. However, save systems have progressed since Catacomb 3D. Having a well-implemented autosave system is far better than Deathwalk. Chronicles of Riddick and HL2 are good examples of autosave systems. At most, a death will cost you 3-4 minutes and still feel like a penalty. In Prey, Death is a reward. Come back, at the minimum, half health, half spirit and have a 3-4 second jump on the AI? There's no need to think strategically, to aim, to be conservative, to do anything. I mean if we are the point in gaming where we have to reward bad playing, we might as well make enemies 1hp, you have auto-aiming weapons and infinite life. Deathwalk is a cheatcode, but put in by the developers without the option to remove it.

The entire discussion about having casual players being able to beat the game is nonsense. There's a reason why most games have selectable difficulties (easy, medium, hard). With Prey, there's none of that. Functionally, there is no difference between having infinite health and deathwalk. If you want players to finish your game, make it compelling, fair and fun (which Prey is). That kind of argument is non-sensical. People have finished tens of thousands of games just fine without the need for a massive crutch like Deathwalk. Would beating Contra be as satisfying if you had infinite lives? There's no true sense of accomplishment in beating Prey, simply because a monkey could finish Prey.

As for people saying that if you don't like Deathwalk, just QS/RL like before. Let me ask you, if you don't like tap water, do you go straight to the Lake to drink? Deathwalk is there, the mere presence of it will render quicksave/reloading useless.

[d3ad connection]

There's no true sense of accomplishment in beating Prey
I certainly felt good when finishing it, and I'm still replaying it.

[Denz]

Actually, the experience of the game is much better when the flow of it is continuous. I hated SOF2 at some part because i had to fastsave too much. I completly stopped Mafia because of that.

[0marTheZealot]

I certainly felt good when finishing it, and I'm still replaying it.


Do you also feel good when you tie your shoelaces?

It felt good to beat Prey for the story and seeing what the developers could think of, but it was certainly no challenge at all.

[elsenator]

Have people ever whined that they had to redo sections of a game once they've died? Nope.

Defenders of Deathwalk: Is there a consequence (an action that has the potential of preventing the player from beating the game) to losing all your health in Prey?
To me, a game is not about having consenquences for your actions. It's about having fun and being immersed. Deathwalk is an immensely clever way of giving everyone what they want. You want to reload when you die? You can do that. You want to run guns blasting into every room and die a couple times while doing so? You can do that. You want to play tactically, and hide behind boxes and walls, and use death walk to keep the game flowing? You can do that too!

I see no let downs, unless you plain and simply lack the self-persistency to not use it, if you don't like it.

It's all up to the individual player.

[d3ad connection]

Do you also feel good when you tie your shoelaces?

It felt good to beat Prey for the story and seeing what the developers could think of, but it was certainly no challenge at all.
It was a challenge to me.
And yes, I do feel good when I tie my shoes. :D

[Gatinater]

Why are people under the illusion that the deathwalk makes the game easier?? If you end up having to do the deathwalk then your crap, the game IS too hard for you! WHY? because you just been killed you plebs!!

Yeah, so you can suck and never lose because of it. I don't use quick save.

[Aegeri]

Do you also feel good when you tie your shoelaces?

It felt good to beat Prey for the story and seeing what the developers could think of, but it was certainly no challenge at all.

Dead has a point though Omar, some people aren't in it for being challenged or to have insane firefights or similar. A lot of people like the theme of the game, the general wierdness of the aliens and the plot/story. These people are going to have a great time and the difficulty won't be an issue.

The problem is 3dr/HH went too far in the opposite direction and those of us who like their games to be a challenge [as evidentally I am], can't because the game has been made ridiculously easy. The problem is there isn't any way to change that inherit difficulty.

[Wolle]

nope, but there ain't one without deathwalk either. Just reload the game and you're good to go :dopefish:
But you're still left with the problem of how to defeat that boss. With deathwalk all you need is a pipe wrench and a lot of patience. You can whittle him down.

In other shooters, I'm on edge when I fight. In Prey, I just don't care as much about it all.

[Draco]

nope

Thank you for conceding.


A good autosave system would render Deathwalk unnecessary.


There is a good autosave system in Prey.

'No' in a long-winded way

Thank you for conceding.

[Damien_Azreal]

Ya know, it's sad to see everyone complaining over such a feature.

All anyone did with games was complain that they died and had to quickload an old save, then they had to replay so much to get back to where they were.
Now, a developer comes up with a very way to get around that problem and poeople complain about that as well. Saying it makes the game to damn easy. :rolleyes:

Ya know, there's nothing stopping you from quick saving every now and then. And when you die, hit Escape and go to the menu and reload your old save game. Simple and takes as much effort as it did in games like Doom 3 and HL2.

The people complaining about this feature are the same people complaining about Far Cry's check point save system. Either it's to hard or it's to easy.

[elsenator]

Thank you for conceding.

I do not concede. I think death walk is a great way to keep the game flowing with no reload interruptions.

[d3ad connection]

I don't see why we're arguing about this... I don't think they are going to change it, seeing as it's a major feature of Prey.

[0marTheZealot]

Ya know, it's sad to see everyone complaining over such a feature.

All anyone did with games was complain that they died and had to quickload an old save, then they had to replay so much to get back to where they were.
Now, a developer comes up with a very way to get around that problem and poeople complain about that as well. Saying it makes the game to damn easy. :rolleyes:

Ya know, there's nothing stopping you from quick saving every now and then. And when you die, hit Escape and go to the menu and reload your old save game. Simple and takes as much effort as it did in games like Doom 3 and HL2.

The people complaining about this feature are the same people complaining about Far Cry's check point save system. Either it's to hard or it's to easy.

Well, FC's system was great, but the real problem was that FC worked it's best to beat the player instead of entertaining the player. Rocket launcher snipers @ 800 meters are not fun, no matter what anyone says. If FC was properly balanced, the checkpoint system would definately not have been lampooned as it was.

[0marTheZealot]

There is a good autosave system in Prey.



ah I didn't notice, probably because I beat the game in two sessions and because of deathwalk :)

[d3ad connection]

You didn't notice how sometimes the game pauses for a sec, then displays "Game saved." at the top? ;)

[Draco]

I do not concede.

Yet, you did so, by not showing me any consequences of death in Prey.

[Damien_Azreal]

And how do you get consequences of death in a game that you can quick save every ten seconds?

It's a pointless arguement. Just because you don't like Death Walking doens't mean other's will go along with you just because you make a point or two.

Discussing "consequences" of death in a video game? This isn't real people... so death in any game is pretty much without consequence.

[d3ad connection]

Could a mod lock this? It's not going to change anytime soon.

[Parkar]

I am thinking games should start having two modes, causal(easy) gaming and challenge(hard) gaming. Kind of like the old difficulty system but with the difference that difficulty is not locked.

The downside with the old system is that there is no way to realy know which one is for you and you may end up having to restart cause it got to easy or to hard and for some even the easiest setting is to hard to finish the game.

The downside with the newer games using ADD, deathwalk and other things to help keep players from having to reload is that hardcore players don't find any challenge in the game.

The problem with just one difficulty is that how ever good a ADD system is it can't know how big of a challenge a player wants.

As for deathwalk, I think it's a good idea but I would like to get set back just a bit like restoring the enemies health while being away. I wan't to feel like I need to do a bit of a comeback after getting killed as that would give me a more satisfying experience once I get back on the enemy that killed me.

[Damien_Azreal]

Could a mod lock this? It's not going to change anytime soon.

You could suggest this thread being locked by clicking on the "Notify Moderater" button under somebodies post... but it's pointless.

Close this thread and another will be made shortly after.

[Aegeri]

The downside with the newer games using ADD, deathwalk and other things to help keep players from having to reload is that hardcore players don't find any challenge in the game.

I hate to bring it up again, but Sin: Episodes uses an ADD system and it works magnificiently. I found the difficulty just right and I could make it completely insane if I felt like it. Sin catered for players who weren't terribly good, through large amounts of assistance and little modification to AI challenge or for the masochist in the opposite direction.

[Wolle]

The people complaining about this feature are the same people complaining about Far Cry's check point save system. Either it's to hard or it's to easy.
That one game is too hard, doesn't mean that another can't be too easy. :p

I can see what the designers are trying to do, and it has good points, but I'm just saying it comes at a price. I think the feature would be closer to quick save if it was implemented more like this suggestion:
http://forums.3drealms.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19861

[Parkar]

I hate to bring it up again, but Sin: Episodes uses an ADD system and it works magnificiently. I found the difficulty just right and I could make it completely insane if I felt like it. Sin catered for players who weren't terribly good, through large amounts of assistance and little modification to AI challenge or for the masochist in the opposite direction.

It also kind of implemeted what I meant as you could sett the challenge you wanted.

[Razzuel]

I am a fan of challenging games, such as Ninja Gaiden which got extremely difficult (Alma anyone? I almost lost my sanity trying to beat her). This game wasn't meant to be a challenge in the first place though. Prey was built around its story and its crazy portals, gravity, etc., so by adding Deathwalk the player is constantly with the flow of the game and the immersion doesn't break, which is what I think Human Head was aiming for.

[St. Toxic]

If you want some real challenge, put up some rules outside of the game and do your best to stick with them.

"-GOSH IT'S LIKE GODMODE ENABLED BY DEFAULT!" Just turn it off you bozo. Below 50 health? Reload. Or how about one shot = kill? Probably beefs it up. The fact that the game doesn't toss you out to desktop and stick a firecracker up your ass doesn't mean that you can't set your own restraints. In fact, anything else would be weak, like cheating in games from the start, or this complaint bonanza.

[jAkUp]

I think Deathwalk is a pretty cool idea. It keeps you in the game, never having to reload, etc.

I do kinda agree that it makes dieing less of a penalty, but I am glad somebody did something different for ****s sake.

[MegaMustaine]

Problem is that the game is already 5 hours long max, and with death walk, that is the game time, doesn't count in anything else. No more getting ten hours out of a five hour game. I just can't justify spending 50 dollars on a virtual movie. What the hell happened to extra crispy mode, and sweet level design? Damn I miss 1997.

[avatar_58]

Problem is that the game is already 5 hours long max, and with death walk, that is the game time, doesn't count in anything else. No more getting ten hours out of a five hour game. I just can't justify spending 50 dollars on a virtual movie. What the hell happened to extra crispy mode, and sweet level design? Damn I miss 1997.

It was 6 and half to 7 hours for me if you count the end boss fight and the end sequence (which I do, its part of the game). You didn't like the level design? I thought for once they had managed to make a spaceship interesting....not just generic corridors.

[Pengu]

Farcry's system is good, it would've been better had it gave players the option to use 1 save per level. Then again I can can really only remember moments of frustration in that game on 2 accounts. Still it gave you a good challenge and forced you to really plan out what you did.
To people that say that you should reload if you die if you don't like it. We shouldn't have to make the game artificially harder to play it. They could have done many things to make deathwalk work. Such as give all the enemies their health back, or Require a certain amount of spirit to use or you die. Instead by default godmode is turned on, with no way to turn it off. I judge a game by how its presented, not how its presented after being modified.

[Razamanaz]

just trying to get the point of the argument...

Deathwalking makes the game easy as you die a lot - respawn and finish kicking aliens asses, as aliens do not regenerate..

Doesn't the fact that you die a lot indicates that game is not that easy?

Just trying to understand.

And to those who went trought the game. Is there any point in the game where you HAVE to die to get further?
NO spoilers pls - just a yes or no

[avatar_58]

And to those who went trought the game. Is there any point in the game where you HAVE to die to get further?
NO spoilers pls - just a yes or no

Nope.

[Adabiviak]

Am I actually hearing people complain about a feature of the game that they have a choice not to use? If Deathwalk isn't for you, use quicksave. If the brief period of invulnerability after Deathwalk isn't for you, when you plop down behind the bad guy, get his attention before beginning the fight. In fact, you can use this time to customize how to handle the situation. You can take advantage of the surprise to attack, retreat to a better position, or take no advantage of it, equip the wrench, and step up. It's like complaining about the quicksave feature in a regular game - who's stopping you from not using it?

[Jito463]

Here's an idea to shut up the whiners, just make a patch that allows them to turn on/off deathwalk. All this complaining over what is essentially nothing. Sheesh.

[9Nails]

just trying to get the point of the argument...

Deathwalking makes the game easy as you die a lot - respawn and finish kicking aliens asses, as aliens do not regenerate..

Doesn't the fact that you die a lot indicates that game is not that easy?

Just trying to understand.

And to those who went trought the game. Is there any point in the game where you HAVE to die to get further?
NO spoilers pls - just a yes or no
Yes!

Avatar, what about the demo... When you die in the demo, you're taken to the spirit world and learn your Cherokee tools for the game.

When Far-Cry came out, people complained about the ending levels.
When Doom 3 came out, people complained about it being too dark.
When Half-Life 2 came out, people complained about Citidel and ending levels.
In other words, read my sig:

[George Broussard]

If you dislike DeathWalk, don't use it :) When you die, press F9 to load your last saved game. Done :)

[avatar_58]

Avatar, what about the demo... When you die in the demo, you're taken to the spirit world and learn your Cherokee tools for the game.


Thats technically not dying. By death I assumed he meant entering the death realm. You can logically finish the entire game without actually entering deathwalk mode.

[CameO73]

After reading this thread, I can only conclude that it's not really the Deathwalking that bothers some, but more the difficulty of the game. So the argument simple could have ended with this remark from George:
In hindsight, we should have allowed a slider to core players could make the dynamic difficulty system harder. That was an oversight.

[0marTheZealot]

After reading this thread, I can only conclude that it's not really the Deathwalking that bothers some, but more the difficulty of the game. So the argument simple could have ended with this remark from George:


well, that changes nothing with deathwalk being such an overwhelming disadvantage. Every room could have a thousand enemies and you'll still be able to win by standing still and holding down the mouse button. The real problem is that deathwalk has zero penalty; in fact, it rewards you :(. It should have given you a 15-20% death penalty in health that can only be made up by killing enemies or something to that effect. Or maybe once or twice per level. Something to make death not a reward.

[MegaMustaine]

Omar the problem with the levels, and it seems to be inherent with most fps these days is that they are very linear. Sure they can make something interesting, but to me the design sucks if it is a simple point a to b that you are guided on. No wondering, no finding things, just a to b. I think the problem lies in the fact that door key type games are gone. With this system exploration was required and you were not just lead to the key. Sure it was still linear in the point that you had to go through certain doors, but there were mazes, dead ends, and in my opinion level design that took thought. Just look at Duke 3d and Blood to see what I am referencing. Totally different from Prey and alot of todays FPS IMHO. This is why I just can't play them, and i am hoping that duke brings this type of fresh level design back. Less story oriented and more game oriented, that is the way it ought to be.

[Maniac536]

I appreciate deathwalk very much, espessially in cherokee mode.

-Maniac

[CameO73]

Something to make death not a reward.
I don't see Deathwalk as a reward, more like a safety net.

I think it all comes down to what you expect in a game. I want to advance to see the story unfold (and to see what cool stuff lies ahead of me!). For me, it's not as much about not getting killed, but more about having fun with the game.

@MegaMustaine: I don't really miss the door-key-door-key-door-key games that much. Yes, the exploring could be fun... but also very boring after a while. Backtracking entire levels just for a key isn't that much fun ;)

[Draco]

Doesn't the fact that you die a lot indicates that game is not that easy?


The fact that you die a lot is irrelevent - within a couple seconds, you're returned to the exact same place, with a half-full health bar, as if nothing happened.

Run into area, blasting away. Die. Jump into DeathWalk hole as soon as you get there, return to the exact same place you were, with half health. Continue blasting away. Repeat with eyes closed. (or diverged so that my left eye was looking at the screen, but my right eye was looking at the mouse to my right).


If you dislike DeathWalk, don't use it :) When you die, press F9 to load your last saved game. Done :)

Why would I need to reload? The game is providing me with invulnerability the whole way through.

Can you honestly claim that the player's health is of any relevency to game? Can you tell me any functional, salient different between Deathwalk and me binding a key to "set player's health to half"? 'You lose a second' is not a salient difference.

Possible ways to fix deathwalk:

1) There's a 1-2 minute no-deathWalk situation after you return from deathwalk. You still get that 'safety net', but you can't rely on just coming back any old time.

2) Certain areas (like, bosses) have no-deathwalk situations.

3) If someone deathwalks, return them to the latest autosave (similar to when you die in a craft, and you're not close enough to the End Station - you'll teleport back to the Start Station). The game autosaves fairly regularly, so its not as if you're missing anything.

4) As difficulty level goes up, more areas are non-deathwalk.

[avatar_58]

The fact that you die a lot is irrelevent - within a couple seconds, you're returned to the exact same place, with a half-full health bar, as if nothing happened.


Not in the vehciles, they drop you right back where the thing started.

[0marTheZealot]

Omar the problem with the levels, and it seems to be inherent with most fps these days is that they are very linear. Sure they can make something interesting, but to me the design sucks if it is a simple point a to b that you are guided on. No wondering, no finding things, just a to b. I think the problem lies in the fact that door key type games are gone. With this system exploration was required and you were not just lead to the key. Sure it was still linear in the point that you had to go through certain doors, but there were mazes, dead ends, and in my opinion level design that took thought. Just look at Duke 3d and Blood to see what I am referencing. Totally different from Prey and alot of todays FPS IMHO. This is why I just can't play them, and i am hoping that duke brings this type of fresh level design back. Less story oriented and more game oriented, that is the way it ought to be.


True, but the cost of producing high level content in such a sprawling level design is prohibitively expensive. If you have something cool/sweet in one path, you need something equally as cool in the second. This is why most games are very linear. The best we can hope for is something like HL2's Highway 17/Sandtraps levels. It's still linear, but there's a shitload of optional content to go see and explore.

I definately would not mind seeing the sprawling levels back in Doom2, Quake, Duke3D though. But it's tough nowadays, and we all have to mindful of that.


Posted by CameO73
I don't see Deathwalk as a reward, more like a safety net.

I think it all comes down to what you expect in a game. I want to advance to see the story unfold (and to see what cool stuff lies ahead of me!). For me, it's not as much about not getting killed, but more about having fun with the game.

@MegaMustaine: I don't really miss the door-key-door-key-door-key games that much. Yes, the exploring could be fun... but also very boring after a while. Backtracking entire levels just for a key isn't that much fun


Well, deathwalk is a reward. Enemies ignore you for 2-3 seconds and you come back with a minimum of half health and half spirit. I expect the same things you do, but a challenge or sense of accomplishment needs to remain as well. Otherwise, we might as well give players infinite health, infinite ammo, auto-aim and 1 hp enemies if all game designers expect them to do is to complete the game and soak in the story.

[elsenator]

Yet, you did so, by not showing me any consequences of death in Prey.
No, i did not concede, by not telling you any consequences. You want consequences? Then hit F9 when you die. End of story.

[Nathrak]

So uh.. am I the only one who noticed that bosses regain some health when deathwalking?

I remember one time fighting
the first female boss ;)
And even though it couldn't regenerate health from the two things it sent out anymore as I destroyed them, it killed me when it was near-death. I deathwalked, came back, it was up to almost half health again.

This happened on regular and Cherokee difficulty if I remember correctly.

[neowert]

I love deathwalk. It actually makes death a fun and interesting part of the game. I died a lot. I like how the deathwalk changed over time. Or maybe I just noticed more. It was nice not caring about saving anymore. Saving a lot like cheating to me, but sometimes it is the only way to avoid frustration.

I dunno how you can only die twice. I guess I am not good at twitch shooter. I mostly do tactical ones.

I hope there is just an option to disable deathwalk for the core fps players in Prey 2. I would be pissed if it wasnt there because of popular opinion and not game design.

Oh yeah, does Tommy have closet full of alient weapons now?

[Twin]

Beyond everything else, I like DeathWalk becuase it keeps you in the game and in the game's world and fiction. You aren't jerked out of it by 'dying'. That leads to a consistent experience when you are playing the game.

that's something i agree with 100%...i hate playing games where you're supposed to be some kind o superhero...or some guy that saves the world yet you die about 20 times through the story and then somehow come back alive again...

personally for me it ruins the story and feel of the game...as much as i liked max payne it was annoying to die alot through the game...

i havn't played Prey yet (buying it tomorrow :D ) but i think the deathwalk feature is great...it gives you the feel that, yeah, you're the hero of the story and you're not going to die because you have a cool deathwalk ability :)

[Noam sane?]

On so many forums the posting gamers seem to be divided between those who want only death match type game play and those who want to see increased virtual adventure and the development of true interactive fiction in the production of video games. On the rare occasions when this happens well many applaud the effort while others loudly protest. If the death match people have their way , as currently seems to be the case, the single player game and all of it's interactive story telling potential will disappear leaving only the dodge ball target practice play style that comprises the horrid on line death matches replete with inane adolescent taunts of Bevis as he "pawns" Butthead. Currently every maker of single player games seems compelled to waste resources dangling one of these stinkers like an incomplete bowel evacuation from their single player effort. This wasn't always the case, what happened?

The "death walk" mode is integrated into the plot perfectly providing the continuous game play that *should* exist in EVERY single player game as it presents the drama of a virtual adventure and story to the player on the players own terms. Only when developers abandon the idea of "death" (even one is a mark of a failed game in my opinion) as a valid device in story telling will they start to make good single player games again. "Fire fights" can be an *element* of game play but if it is allowed to define the FPS it will doom (if it hasn't already happened) the single player game to extinction in my opinion.

[Zegraphoob]

Why are people under the illusion that the deathwalk makes the game easier?? If you end up having to do the deathwalk then your crap, the game IS too hard for you! WHY? because you just been killed you plebs!!

The fact I'm killed doesn't do anything to me. The fact I have to restart from the latest checkpoint does, and that's a challenge I enjoy, you pleb!

Yeah, it's really a nonsense argument.


Do you want to see a true nonsense argument? Here is a good example:


You can achieve the same results with lots of quick saves, even during a boss fight. If you quick save every 10 seconds, you will never lose progress in a game.

That's exactly the reason why I'm not quicksaving every 10 seconds.

The fact one could "cheat" that way doesn't justify how deathwalking basically forces the same thing on you.


I guess people resist change.

We don't resist change, we resist negative change.

it seems to me that people actually want to stare at loading screens instead of continuosly being involved in the game!

Continuously stare at loading screens? Boo. It takes 2 seconds in games on the Doom 3 Engine, among other engines.

Ultimately I think a lot of people will come to appreciate DeathWalk once they play Prey, then play their next FPS without it. I went from Prey to Sin Episodes and I loved Sin, but missed the DeathWalk :) I kept forgetting to quicksave and lost a fair bit of progress.

That's why games have to include autosaves. I'm currently replaying Far Cry and I'm not missing DeathWalking one bit. In fact, I'm glad the challenge is back.

Yeah I really enjoy Deathwalk, because before I got Prey I was playing Quake 4 (since I had not completed it yet), and Quake 4 is rediculous. Quake 4 isn't that bad of a game but as I was playing I was like WTF when is this game going to end and whenever I died I had to see if I had saved earlier. If I didn't save earlier I'd get pissed off real quick, but if I did save I would think oh great I have to try and get past this crap again. So Deathwalk then became something very useful. It kept the flow of the game and allowed me to really enjoy Prey. I mean now I don't have to hit Esc and quicksave before I go through each door like I did with Quake 4 which was a pain in the ass.

Don't blame it on the game you played Quake 4 on a too high difficulty setting. Also, you don't have to hit escape if you really want to quicksave, you just hit F#. And what do you mean you wanted the game to end? Quake 4 is already a rather short game (not as short as Prey, fortunately). The only place where I missed the autosaves was at the beginning of a boss battle. Only the two last boss battles have an autosave before the battle. If the other bosses had an autosave as well it would be perfect.

Beyond everything else, I like DeathWalk becuase it keeps you in the game and in the game's world and fiction. You aren't jerked out of it by 'dying'. That leads to a consistent experience when you are playing the game.

If anything, deathwalking made me less careful about dying, and I got sucked out of the atmosphere of the game. While in other games like Doom 3 I get sucked in the atmosphere while I'm avoiding death. You can basically say deathwalking has the opposite effect on me.

Don't understand me wrong though, I liked deathwalking in Prey, it's just not something I'd like to see becoming a standard in first person shooters. The feature, even if it's not exactly the same, fits in Prey, but nowhere else.

I was still careful not to die, but I didn't care like in other games when I died. Also, I tried to come back with as much health and spiritpower as possible, by resisting being sucked back into the hole/portal. I was thinking "Damn eh!" when I missed a bit of health of spirit power when I was sucked into the hole, which is what you guys probably wanted to achieve. Just to tell you it was not all too negative. I just don't want it to appear in other games.

For the guys who don't like it: what's stopping you from just reloading the last savegame when you die/enter deathwalk? nothing eh? problem solved...
If you dislike DeathWalk, don't use it :) When you die, press F9 to load your last saved game. Done :)

I don't like setting my own rules in games, especially considering the game has been balanced with deathwalking, not without it. And even if it's perfectly possible to beat without deathwalking, like I said I don't want to, the game has to set up the rules, not me.

If there wasn't deathwalk, then there would be people whining that they have to redo half the level everytime they die.

That's would not be a problem with the absence of deathwalk, but with the absence of frequent autosaves like in Half-Life.

Ya know, it's sad to see everyone complaining over such a feature.


It's also sad to see people calling the other side of the debate "sad" because they don't agree.


All anyone did with games was complain that they died and had to quickload an old save, then they had to replay so much to get back to where they were.
Now, a developer comes up with a very way to get around that problem and poeople complain about that as well. Saying it makes the game to damn easy. :rolleyes:

Ya know, there's nothing stopping you from quick saving every now and then. And when you die, hit Escape and go to the menu and reload your old save game. Simple and takes as much effort as it did in games like Doom 3 and HL2.

The people complaining about this feature are the same people complaining about Far Cry's check point save system. Either it's to hard or it's to easy.

That's why you have to balance it out, but taking two extremes isn't an argument. It's like George W. Bush his "everyone who isn't in favour of us, is against us". It's simply a false dilemma.
I didn't mind it in Far Cry, but many others did, so you still take an extreme, instead of a balanced average, like Half-Life, which has frequent autosaves.

And how do you get consequences of death in a game that you can quick save every ten seconds?


By relying on the autosaves, and not half-cheating by quicksaving after every enemy or 10 seconds. Then you have consequences.


Discussing "consequences" of death in a video game? This isn't real people... so death in any game is pretty much without consequence.

We are talking about consequences within the game, not for the player in real life, OBVIOUSLY.
Sure, having to redo a section is a consequence.

Could a mod lock this? It's not going to change anytime soon.

What would a forum be without debates, and people disagreeing with each other?

[d3ad connection]

:O Wow. Long post.

I don't think this debate will go anywhere. There's no point in doing it... Prey is a game for storytelling, and having fun, not challenge(well, the puzzles were a challenge). If you don't like it, well, sorry.

[Zegraphoob]

:O Wow. Long post.


Actually, it looks long, but most of the space goes to quotes.
I only added one or two lines of my own, so it did not take me as much as it looks.


I don't think this debate will go anywhere. There's no point in doing it...


Actually, I like getting counter-arguments, so I can see where I'm wrong.


Prey is a game for storytelling, and having fun, not challenge(well, the puzzles were a challenge). If you don't like it, well, sorry.

Well, other games have a challenge as well, while still being fun and having storytelling. I didn't think the puzzles were particularly challenging as well, there is much wasted potential in that regard.

[St. Toxic]

Having to restart from the latest checkpoint is a challenge I enjoy.

The option is, as previously stated, there at your disposal.

Having to redo a section is a consequence.

Not to mention an annoyance. How about jumping around in the spirit realm and shooting stuff -- isn't that a consequence as well, if I, like, don't want to?

The fact that you die a lot is irrelevent - within a couple seconds, you're returned to the exact same place, with a half-full health bar, as if nothing happened

Like standard fps death, minus replaying the harmless sections where you don't die. Gamedeath overall is irrelevant.

Why would I need to reload? The game is providing me with invulnerability the whole way through.

"- Yeah, unless someone drags me out of bed, I just stay asleep for weeks." You want challenge, use reload -- simple. Show what a decisive man you can be.

Can you honestly claim that the player's health is of any relevency to game?

What game? Any game? Not really; ifHealth=0 {addFlag PlayerIsDead};

Can you tell me any functional, salient different between Deathwalk and me binding a key to "set player's health to half"?

An extra key, for one.

To people that say that you should reload if you die if you don't like it. We shouldn't have to make the game artificially harder to play it.

You don't. That's options for you. How's that?

[bummerman]

It's also a good opportunity to practice your aim for "Spirit Walk" in MP. I noticed mine improve a bunch yesterday.

[Zegraphoob]

The option is, as previously stated, there at your disposal.


Is that one directed to me? Because I didn't literally say that. No one else did either.
If it's directed to me, I have an argument against it, look at my second post above this post.


Not to mention an annoyance. How about jumping around in the spirit realm and shooting stuff -- isn't that a consequence as well, if I, like, don't want to?

Yes, but it's nothing compared to having to restart from the latest autosave. You don't even have to do anything in deathwalking. Waiting 5 seconds does the trick. With deathwalking, you don't even have to win battles, you can continue where you left off. With autosaves, you have to win the whole battle. This is what we mean when we say "challenge is lost".

[d3ad connection]

We are never going to resolve this...

[Draco]

{Dying is a consequence}... Not to mention an annoyance.


It does annoy you. That way, when you return to that area, you don't do the same thing again. You die, you do something different. In Prey, there's no need to do anything different. You're always rewarded. I know, you like playing FPSes in Invulnerability mode, but I perfer to be tested.


Like standard fps death


Doesn't exist in Prey.


You want challenge, use reload -- simple. Show what a decisive man you can be.


I state again - why would I need to reload? Reloading is for when I die, an impossibility in Prey.


What game?


This one. I know you're just trolling.


We are never going to resolve this...


That's very true. Thankfully, Tommy's Deathwalk is going to have the same fate as that other game with a guy that can't die...

I see nobody has tried to show me a salient consequence of losing all your health in Prey.

[d3ad connection]

Thing is, it's just a game and I think we're all taking this too seriously. It is not going to change anytime soon.

[Mannak]

post deleted

[Mannak]

I just thinking about it.....The Cherokie Nation would have kicked the white man's ass if they all had Deathwalks....

[OnyxBMW]

I just thinking about it.....The Cherokie Nation would have kicked the white man's ass if they all had Deathwalks....

Any one person could destroy the world if they had deathwalk.

[CrimsonHead]

Has deathwalk actually changed how some of us play or something? I know I'm still playing the same, I still try not to die.

[Zegraphoob]

Thing is, it's just a game and I think we're all taking this too seriously. It is not going to change anytime soon.

We are not taking this too seriously. If developers think all of us love deathwalk, it would soon be the standard in all first person shooters, and there goes our hobby.

Has deathwalk actually changed how some of us play or something? I know I'm still playing the same, I still try not to die.

I try not to die as well, but not to the extend I do in other games. I dare to confront snipers in a more direct way rather than taking cover. And when I die, I don't care, since I don't have to redo the battle, which takes away the challenge.

Any one person could destroy the world if they had deathwalk.

Except when they captured him and buried him alive three kilometers under the ground.

[Aegeri]

1) There's a 1-2 minute no-deathWalk situation after you return from deathwalk. You still get that 'safety net', but you can't rely on just coming back any old time.

2) Certain areas (like, bosses) have no-deathwalk situations.

3) If someone deathwalks, return them to the latest autosave (similar to when you die in a craft, and you're not close enough to the End Station - you'll teleport back to the Start Station). The game autosaves fairly regularly, so its not as if you're missing anything.

4) As difficulty level goes up, more areas are non-deathwalk.

1, 2 and 4 are particularly good. I'm not too keen on 3 though, but the other solutions would all work really well.

[Zegraphoob]

1 will lead to frustration because the solution will be to wait two minutes before you progress, which is not fun. 2 is good but there has to be a way to know whether you can deathwalk in the current area or not, and there has to be something in the story to justify it (so it makes sense you can not deathwalk in certain areas). 3 is usless since the enemies don't revive. 4 is good, same remark as 2, but there have to be more difficulty settings then (which are available from the beginning)

[Levelord]

I'd like to add a "whatever". Deathwalk or not, Prey is a really good game.

[neowert]

I liked prey for the amazing environment, story, fighting, and creatures. I like how deathwalk integrates death into the game. I am also really glad it was there. There were two parts in the game where I just got my ass handed to me.

[spoiler]
(The bossfight with Jen, and at the beginning of facing the enemy. I was WAY too conservative with my ammo)

[Aegeri]

You need to completely close the spoiler tag above with [/spoiler] before it will work Neo.

[Lez]

I liked death walk alot, if only to save me the hassle of reloading the game a hundred times every time I fell to my doom.

[0marTheZealot]

I liked death walk alot, if only to save me the hassle of reloading the game a hundred times every time I fell to my doom.

How do you fall to your death when you can just spiritwalk to test the waters so to speak...

[Wolle]

I'm replaying Prey right now without using deathwalk and I must say I like it a lot better. I was afraid that it would be too hard since it seemed to be balanced with deathwalk in mind, but so far it is fine.

This seems like a fine option for those who don't like deathwalk.

[Haanz]

You know, there's a really simple option available here that could be easily fixed in a patch. In the options menu, give an option for "DEATHWALK" yes/no.

Personally, I like Deathwalk. I'd like to emphasize that before I continue. It was excellent for the first play through, as I didn't have to worry about my health levels (I still would try not to die very often though), and so I could concentrate on the story, puzzles and action. However, on the second playthrough, Cherokee wasn't really difficult, at all. It'd be really easy to just have an option for Deathwalk on/off though, default on. For those who want the extra challenge, it's there. But most people will experience the game it was originally intended.

It could easily be turned into a gameplay option, sorta like aim assist on the X360 version, in a patch. Oh, but when it's on, Cherokee would have to get health spores back. That'd just be crazy otherwise!

[ZaphodB]

Simplest solution if you don't like deathwalk and you just wanna wine and complain about it :

DON'T PLAY THE GAME

then you have nothing to gripe about :)

[oak man]

Aw man I wish I could deathwalk:( I guess I'll juss get prey for the xbox:(
*heavy sigh*

[Frogacuda]

Yeah, it's really a nonsense argument.

You can achieve the same results with lots of quick saves, even during a boss fight. If you quick save every 10 seconds, you will never lose progress in a game.

This simply isn't true. Even constantly using quicksaves still forces the player to retry when he messes up. Deathwalk doesn't. Enemies don't reagain health or respawn along with Tommy. It means any chump can chisel down even the toughest boss without any skill needed. Not true of using quicksaves.

Let's put it this way, George. What would require more effort: Trying to beat contra with save states/quicksaves or trying to beat it with infinite lives so you never lost any progress at all? See my point?

but then again, most people are frustrated by really hard or complex bosses.
I've said it before, but I'll reiterate again: finding the right amount of frustration is the key to good game design. Too much is a bad thing and can discourage the player because he doesn't feel the goal is within his reach. But too little will diminish the player's sense of accomplishment when he's completed a goal. He needs to feel like he's acheived something, and in order to do that he has to be challenged.

[d3ad connection]

Simplest solution if you don't like deathwalk and you just wanna wine and complain about it :

DON'T PLAY THE GAME

then you have nothing to gripe about :)
I agree.

[djc23]

I've said it before, but I'll reiterate again: finding the right amount of frustration is the key to good game design. Too much is a bad thing and can discourage the player because he doesn't feel the goal is within his reach. But too little will diminish the player's sense of accomplishment when he's completed a goal. He needs to feel like he's acheived something, and in order to do that he has to be challenged.

This last parargraph is right on the money.
And about the whole deathwalk = quicksave thing: Are you people stupid? Its not the same. Example:
You enter that room with the first boss with 100% health and lets say there is 50% health available from floor spores. Thats a total of 150% health avaiiable and one big boss to kill. You must use your skills as a player to make that health last the whole fight and defeat the boss. No matter how much you quicksave you ain't going to get more health and the area where you could quicksave safelty are limited. With deathwalk you have inifinite health, if you run out you die and get at least 50% more and you can essentially save anywhere.

Now respond with the whole well just quicksave instead of using deathwalk because I do actually like deathwalk but I think it need to be changed. I have a post elsewhere on these forums detailing some ideas I have and some of the ideas in this post are good too. I still think as it is currently implemented would be a great easy mode (or perhaps they could call it "story mode" or something like that).

To repeat what I said in my other thread; I think the best solution would be to have two difficulty parameters to chose at the start of the game. One for deathwalk style and one for general combat (similar to what they have in some adventure games that have action elements that let less action savy gamers chose easy combat but hard puzzles). That way everyone is happy.

I still really enjoyed Prey for the story, art direction, music and many other elements but the combat felt hollow to me. Remember that feeling you got in Duke 3d when you heard a Battlelords roar. You would shit yourself especially if you where low on health or ammo but when you took him down you felt great. I felt Prey was missing this feeling.

[Mountain Man]

I see nobody has tried to show me a salient consequence of losing all your health in Prey.
It depends on what you mean by "salient consequence", though I suspect you've defined the term just narrowly enough to eliminate Deathwalking. Even with Deathwalking, though, a particularly tough fight where you die alot is going to take longer to beat, and you'll most likely come out of the fight with less ammo (having expended more due to the longer duration of the fight) and possibly less health which means your next encounter could be harder unless you find some health spores and ammo along the way.

To me, Deathwalk is no more or less of a consequence than spamming the quicksave key, except that Deathwalk doesn't kill the immersion by flashing a message box in your face that says, "Game Over! Load most recent save?"

[CameO73]

... and possibly less health which means your next encounter could be harder unless you find some health spores and ammo along the way.

Although I love deathwalk, there is something to be said against it. You could say that you don't even need the health spores; just kill yourself and regenerate your health/spirit while deathwalking. There've been plenty of times where deathwalking was actually a relief (especially after some bow training).

The ammo is definitely a concern (although there usually plenty around), but the health certainly isn't!

[Foxy]

Yeah, it's really a nonsense argument.

You can achieve the same results with lots of quick saves, even during a boss fight. If you quick save every 10 seconds, you will never lose progress in a game.

O'rly? Deathwalk gives you an unlimited health pool. It's like hitting a button and having your health refill to max instantly. Quicksaves do not work like this: at the end of the day, you have to make your single pool of health last the whole fight somehow. I guess this is compensated for by other games having more HP bonuses lying around, but that's not really the point. Fact is, with deathwalk I'm invincible and can never lose. I just need to keep coming back doing the same old thing until I finally push the boss over the edge. With quicksaves I actually fail. I have to improve my skill and tactics to beat the boss.

[0marTheZealot]

To me, Deathwalk is no more or less of a consequence than spamming the quicksave key, except that Deathwalk doesn't kill the immersion by flashing a message box in your face that says, "Game Over! Load most recent save?"


Consequence? Deathwalk isn't a consequence, it's a reward. Why bother living with 25% health when you can take a header off a ledge and come back with a minimum of 50% health, and that's if you are just standing there. It's faster than backtracking for that spore you saved just in case you didn't have full health after that battle. Cherokee isn't anything different than Normal mode, simply because the player can never lose. In fact, Cherokee forces you to abuse deathwalk. With no health pickups, the only way to get more health is to die... :(

[CameO73]

With no health pickups, the only way to get more health is to die...

I agree completely... but it is really a bad thing? I guess it's just a new way of gaming. But -as has been said before- it should be configurable.

[Mountain Man]

Consequence? Deathwalk isn't a consequence, it's a reward.
If you want to look at it that way, I guess. To be honest, I find that having Deathwalk as a safety net hasn't changed my play style any. I still backtrack to health spores, I try as much as possible to avoid dying. More simply, I use Deathwalk for exactly what it is: an alternative to quicksaving. Can the feature be abused? Sure, but like any game, I find Prey to be most enjoyable when I avoid exploits like that.

[Foxy]

Well, I didn't. I never quicksaved once and never backtracked. I didn't bother with health conservation or planning. And to be honest I only fought in a half-assed fashion because I couldn't lose anyway. The Keepers particularly were just a long slog-session with a load of deathwalks, not a challenge. In my opinion, as an alternative to quicksaves, deathwalk is flawed. Halo's shield system was a lot better. It meant you were never left with a totally impossible situation, but you still had to plan, be careful and fight skillfully and viciously to win. Not so in Prey. Deathwalk is a cakewalk.

[Mountain Man]

I never quicksaved once and never backtracked. I didn't bother with health conservation or planning. And to be honest I only fought in a half-assed fashion because I couldn't lose anyway.
So you used Deathwalk as an exploit to be abused by sloppy play. I can understand why you might not like it. That's why I chose to treat it like a conventional save system.

[Foxy]

An exploit? Abused? What?

I played the game, I did not cheat, I only looked up a hint once when I was stuck. Fact is the game plays like that, end of story. There is no concept of failing in Prey. It's just a fun tourist trip. You appear to be suggesting that I should have saved every 20 seconds and repeated encounters if I didn't get through them precisely and cleanly. That's exactly the kind of annoying, stupid crap that Deathwalk was supposed to stop. Problem is it went too far and made the game IMPOSSIBLE TO LOSE!

I again quote Halo. Halo got rid of quicksaves entirely due to the shield and checkpoints. It worked fantastically. The fights were kept very hard where they should be and yet it laregy didn't require reloading from past saves, because you always had the shield at least. Later on it broke down for me on Hard (1 bar HP with rocket-launcher-wielding flood in tight spaces, go figure), but largely it worked perfectly. It got rid of quicksaves, but the game was still a definite challenge. Prey got rid of quicksaves, but threw the challenge out of the window along with it.

[Smoke Tetsu]

Not to add to the debate or anything but this is how I thought deathwalk should work. You die, you enter the spirit world.. you start off with maybe 10% health when you enter and you shoot at wraiths in order to earn your health and spirit back. If you don't do anything within a set period of time you don't continue (sort of like the continue screens in the arcade). To make it even more challenging you could have it not let you continue if you don't earn a set amount of health that way you actually have to earn your way back to the living. I propose that is how it should be when you choose cherokee difficulty level and or you could just turn off deathwalk so you won't be tempted to use it. Keep the way it is now for tourist\casual mode have deathwalk get harder when you choose cherokee or a new third hard-core mode and or have an option to turn it off. For another consequence in hard-core mode you could have it not show you a good ending if you use deathwalk too much sort of like it taints your soul or something but that probably wouldn't be a good quick fix and would probably be best left to Prey 2.

[Foxy]

There was a crappy melee-fighting game that worked like that, I think it was a Conan console game. You went to another realm when you died but you actually had to win. The problem with that is that it's a bit of a pointless safety-net: good players will breeze through it and bad players will fail a lot, in addition to dying a lot. So it's questionable what the point of it being there is, since it just acts to penalise bad players further but gives good ones an easy ride.

[Smoke Tetsu]

Good players would breeze through the game either way.. even if they turned off deathwalk like I propose so what's the point of anything either way? That's just a general problem in games. I proposed there being 3 ways to do it, the way it is now... the way you have to win, and also a third option to turn it off completely. That should satisfy just about anyone when it comes to that particular feature. But in the end you can't please absolutely everyone, some people hate check point saving, some hate quicksave, etc.

[Foxy]

On a very hard boss even good players will get their asses handed to them for a while. The good player breezes though the death-challenge, and gets back without needing to reload. The bad player loses some of the death-challenges and gets penalised extra, making the fight even harder for him. This doesn't seem right to me.

[Smoke Tetsu]

Why are you focused on that did you not see the part where I said it would be optional? Come on! Read everything I said and not just the option where I said you have to actually win to come back. Though even with just quick save there is nothing to stop anyone from just hitting quicksave and quickload all the time thus making everything moot. Just because you are completely oppposed to the death challenge that doesn't mean it can't work for some people with varying difficulty levels and be OPTIONAL (meaning you can turn it off completely) for others. In my system if a Hard-core player picks medium or easy or abuses quicksave instead of the mode meant for them it's their own fault. That's what those choices would be for... pick the one that suits you best! Heck you could even put in a nightmare option where if you die that's it.. no continue for you. If a bad\casual player chooses hard-core and gets their asses handed back to them it's also their fault.

[Foxy]

I proposed there being 3 ways to do it, the way it is now... the way you have to win, and also a third option to turn it off completely.

Of course this wouldn't actually work, since you've got to rebalance the availability of health bonsues for every choice. Saying "Oh well, make it optional" doesn't get you away from the fact that both of the choices with substance are flawed.

[Smoke Tetsu]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because I still think it could work and would make more people happy. You on the other hand are just completely against it without offering an alternative. Just because you are quick to shoot down my idea doesn't mean it can't work. So what would you have just remove it completely and just go back to quicksave and people abusing that? Not much progress as far as I'm concerned. Are you saying each difficulty level has to be challenging to a hard-core player? If they have to do something like "rebalance the health bonuses" then so be it.

[Foxy]

So what would you have just remove it completely and just go back to quicksave and people abusing that? Not much progress as far as I'm concerned. Are you saying each difficulty level has to be challenging to a hard-core player?

Hint: Extending my argument with cheap scaffolding (i.e. making baseless assumptions) to make it fall over is not a good trick to use in a debate. Quit it.

To the first sentence: No, and I never said that.
To the last sentence: No, and I never said that.

As I've said before, Halo's way worked a lot better. You make sure that the player can recover a certain (not full) amount of hit-points in quieter periods. Prey could easily have done this (after all, combat isn't that frequent, is it?). World of Warcraft does this too, which removes the mindless pot-abuse of Diablo-esque games ('pot, pot, pot, pot, pot, pot, oops I ran out of pots... blaargh')

[Smoke Tetsu]

Then why don't you just play Halo or any other game because most games don't have this in any way shape or form and not bother with Prey ? When you come down to it though even checkpoint systems like Halo can't please everyone. I for one think that other ways like death challenge can work so that's what I mean when I say we should agree to disagree about this. In the end though my way is hypothetical so you can't really compare it because you haven't even tried it. I like the feature and think it could cater to more people with some more development put into it.

[Foxy]

Then why don't you just play Halo or any other game because most games don't have this in any way shape or form and not bother with Prey ? When you come down to it though even checkpoint systems like Halo can't please everyone. I for one think that other ways like death challenge can work so that's what I mean when I say we should agree to disagree about this.

Translation: "I can't rebut what you said, so shut up, that way no-one will notice that fact."

Sorry, this stuff doesn't wash when Politicians try it and it won't when you do either.

I like Prey a lot, but I think deathwalk wasn't the best way to solve the quicksave problem. I'm perfectly entitled to voice my opinion on this. It doesn't change the fact that Prey is great.

You saying that you think death challenge could work is a non-statement. I already know that. You're not answering the issue of balancing that I raised, you're just repeating your position and telling me to shut it. Who's at fault here?

[Smoke Tetsu]

I'm also perfectly entitled to voice my opinion as well. You translating what I said that way is putting words into my mouth and getting technical. I said if they have to rebalance things like health then they should. Do I have to spell out in detail design specs in order for you to not just try to shoot down everything I say? I said it could be tweaked and changed and that would solve some, but not all peoples problems with it as no matter what solution you choose it doesn't work with 100% of the people even Halo's way. There is always someone to complain about any way that saves are handled. I also don't think we should be playing the blame game here.

[Foxy]

I'm also perfectly entitled to voice my opinion as well. You translating what I said that way is putting words into my mouth. I said if they have to rebalance things like health then they should. Do I have to spell out in detail design specs in order for you to not just try to shoot down everything I say? I said it could be tweaked and changed and that would solve some, but not all peoples problems with it as no matter what solution you choose it doesn't work with 100% of the people even Halo's way.

I'll list sentence by sentence:

1) I didn't say you weren't. Baseless attack.
2) No it isn't, I'm just prepared to call people's bluff on weasel-language
3) Missing the point. Health placement is not easy to balance. Why should a dev do it several times over?
4) No. I manage to communicate precisely and clearly what my alternative is, real-world examples included, so why can't you do the same?
5) 'Tweaking' requires that the idea is solid in the first place. You still haven't explained how death-challenge is balanced. That's not tweaks, that's a fundamental flaw. And stop trying to get out of the argument with the last part of that sentence. No method is perfect, but Halo's way is about the best I've seen yet. You haven't got anything that's even equal to it.

[Smoke Tetsu]

Ok then quick idea: Death-walk could be made to not regenerate your health =p You could also work it around a check-point type savegame instead of a quicksave type where you would be restored to the last checkpoint. That's what I mean by it can be worked to fit different tastes. Some people don't like checkpoint type savegames citing them as being too console like. The problem with me giving real-world examples is that my way is relatively new so there aren't a lot of games that have it yet but new ways aren't necessarily bad ways. I also don't have the time to full flesh out the idea nor should I be required to. But I'm sure a good dev can come up with a solution for the issue you describe.

Like perhaps making health more scarse or non existent or like I said... don't regenerate in death-walk. I think the major problem some people have with death-walk is that it just automatically gives you 50% health and takes you back in no matter what you do. It also doesn't have any long-term penalties which I also suggested which would affect even a good player like not having as good an ending if you use it too much. Or it could give you less of a return each time you use it coupled with no or very scarce health powerups in the game I imagine that can be pretty challenging. A good player would not be able to then just breeze through all deathwalks and exploit the game that way but if they truly are good they wouldn't be using it much in the first place. Things that would make it less of a crutch and more of an addition to the game to keep it flowing.

I'll freely admit though that my quick ideas aren't perfect but I never claimed them to be and would probably require dev time.

[Foxy]

Ok then quick idea: Death-walk could be made to not regenerate your health =p You could also work it around a check-point type savegame instead of a quicksave type where you would be restored to the last checkpoint.

So in other words, after Deathwalk you're booted back to a checkpoint with 1 hp. How does this work in boss encounters? How is the player going to get enough health back to have a chance of surviving given that he'll have hoovered it all up already?

Some people don't like checkpoint type savegames citing them as being too console like.

Yet what you propose IS a checkpoint system...

The problem with me giving real-world examples is that my way is relatively new so there aren't a lot of games that have it yet but new ways aren't necessarily bad ways.

I didn't say new is bad. It's fine to not have real-world examples, I just used them because I had them anyway.


I also don't have the time to full flesh out the idea nor should I be required to. But I'm sure a good dev can come up with a solution for the issue you describe.

Passing the buck is not an option. if the idea is flawed at the beginning, it'll be flawed at the end.


I think the major problem some people have with death-walk is that it just automatically gives you 50% health and takes you back in no matter what you do. It also doesn't have any long-term penalties which I also suggested which would affect even a good player like not having as good an ending if you use it too much.

Didn't see you suggest this. Where?


Or it could give you less of a return each time you use it coupled with no or very scarce health powerups in the game I imagine that can be pretty challenging.


So you eventually end up respawning with 1 hp with a boss beating the crap out of you instantly? Diminishing returns is actually a decent idea, but it does basically mandate a reload at some point.


I'll freely admit though that my quick ideas aren't perfect but I never claimed them to be and would probably require dev time.

Neither do I claim mine are perfect. It's just that you can't carry on with an idea that you know from a quick think through has fundamental problems. It's just passing the buck. Somewhere along the line, someone has to get their hands dirty and thrash it out properly. It's your idea, so why don't you do it?

[Smoke Tetsu]

So in other words, after Deathwalk you're booted back to a checkpoint with 1 hp. How does this work in boss encounters? How is the player going to get enough health back to have a chance of surviving given that he'll have hoovered it all up already?

I didn't say you'd be booted back with 1hp just whatever you had at that point you get booted back to. But this can be supplemented... which I'll get to a bit further down.


Yet what you propose IS a checkpoint system...

So? I was just saying even if it's implemented this other way it still wouldn't please everyone I just tried to make it more to your taste. Maybe instead of putting you exactly where you where like it does now it can put you at the checkpoint with the monsters you killed dead but with a few extra ones which are at high alert because you have been through there or maybe in the previous room and with the monsters on high alert in the next room. Instead of them being oblivious to you coming back they'd be more prepared, perhaps hiding behind something to ambush you.


Didn't see you suggest this. Where?

So you eventually end up respawning with 1 hp with a boss beating the crap out of you instantly? Diminishing returns is actually a decent idea, but it does basically mandate a reload at some point.

In the first post and the last post when I suggested things like bad endings depending on how many uses of deathwalk or diminishing returns.. and to me it doesn't matter if it mandates a reload at some point. It doesn't have to be perfect. The better you get, the less of a mandate it becomes. You could also add in something here to help you with bosses if it notices you are having a bear of a time. Like (since you need examples) some kind of health powerup you can earn that is not normally there (yeah yeah, good players breezing through that, this wouldn't be hard for a bad player either, maybe it can see how well you are doing and compensate you accordingly, or not) or spawn in some health powerup somewhere in the boss arena that you can find. Whether or not this bonus shows up though would depend on your average health before that point or other performance so it would help out a bad player some without becoming a huge advantage to a hard-core player who might not need it. Perhaps you could even leech health off the boss to replenish yours (with limits of course).


Neither do I claim mine are perfect. It's just that you can't carry on with an idea that you know from a quick think through has fundamental problems. It's just passing the buck. Somewhere along the line, someone has to get their hands dirty and thrash it out properly. It's your idea, so why don't you do it?

Because I don't have the time nor the money to... mostly the money. I'm also no coder so even if I tried it would be no Prey. Why don't you make the perfect game?

P.S. I didn't write that last post so you can nitpick each point individualy I was more leading to a point than that.

[Mountain Man]

An exploit? Abused? What?
Deliberately playing sloppily and using Deathwalk as a "safety net" is what I would consider a form of feature abuse, yes.

There is no concept of failing in Prey.
Like I've said, it all depends on your perspective. When I end up in Deathwalk, I know it's because I screwed the pooch and that when I get back into the fight, I'm going to have to rethink my strategy if I don't want to die again. That's how I've chosen to play the game, and I'm having an absolute blast.

But of course, few games really have a concept of failure since success is always a quickload away, so I'm not sure why Prey is being overly criticized for this design decision.

[Smoke Tetsu]

To really get the concept of failure in a game you need to have the game uninstall it'self the first time you die and have your disk self destruct, lol

[Foxy]

Because I don't have the time nor the money to... mostly the money. I'm also no coder so even if I tried it would be no Prey. Why don't you make the perfect game?


I'm wondering why writing a couple of paragraphs describing a coherent, well thought out idea is so hard for you.

Deliberately playing sloppily and using Deathwalk as a "safety net" is what I would consider a form of feature abuse, yes.

No it isn't, I didn't do it deliberately, the game lulled me into playing like that. The designers knew damn well that deathwalk encourages and facilitates this way of playing and they didn't do anything.

Like I've said, it all depends on your perspective. When I end up in Deathwalk, I know it's because I screwed the pooch and that when I get back into the fight, I'm going to have to rethink my strategy if I don't want to die again. That's how I've chosen to play the game, and I'm having an absolute blast.

Sorry, artificial objectives you impose on yourself aren't valid. That'd be like saying Thief is incredibly hard because some people choose to ghost the whole level (never being spotted, no blackjacks). Fact is the game is not challenging.

To really get the concept of failure in a game you need to have the game uninstall it'self the first time you die and have your disk self destruct, lol

What was that in aid of? How can you have a challenging game if you can't lose?

[Mountain Man]

Point being, you can never actually lose any game so long as you can simply load up a saved game and continue on. More simply, games are made to be beaten.

[Foxy]

Er, yes you can lose every other game. You die. Game over. There is no 'game over' in Prey at all.

[0marTheZealot]

Point being, you can never actually lose any game so long as you can simply load up a saved game and continue on. More simply, games are made to be beaten.

Well you can lose and it costs a quicksave reload. The player is punished for getting killed in that he has to replay a section of the game over and to rethink his tactics about the next encounter. In Prey, you don't have to do anything different. You can grab a wrench and roll regardless of the consequences. You can use tactics but you aren't rewarded for it, in fact, on Cherokee you are punished for playing smart in that you will always remain at 25% health eventually. A person playing recklessly will have 50-100% for every encounter, because they die and resurrect with a minimum of 50% health.

The biggest problem with deathwalk is that it encourages the player to do nothing different. If you could go to work and sit on your ass for 8 hours and get as good paycheck (or even better) than a guy who works his balls off 8 hours, very few of us would do work. That's what Prey's deathwalk system is. It, in no way, encourages the player to do anything differently, because there is no threat of any punishment whatsoever. Functionally, there is no difference between having God mode on and deathwalk in it's current application.

[d3ad connection]

Why does it matter? To me, Prey is a game to have fun, not be challenged, and I certainly had fun, and I tried my best to not be killed, regardless of the fact that I can just play recklessly and only use a wrench.

Stop arguing, I'm sick of this.

[CameO73]

If you could go to work and sit on your ass for 8 hours and get as good paycheck (or even better) than a guy who works his balls off 8 hours, very few of us would do work.
If that's the case with you, I suggest another job. I'm not only working for the money, but also for the challenges it brings. Money should not be the (main) reason you work (or else you're wasting 8 hours a day in your life!)

More on topic -- I concur with d3ad connection: why does it matter? I've really enjoyed Prey; deathwalk just prevented me from getting bored or stuck at a specific point in the story.

[0marTheZealot]

If that's the case with you, I suggest another job. I'm not only working for the money, but also for the challenges it brings. Money should not be the (main) reason you work (or else you're wasting 8 hours a day in your life!)

More on topic -- I concur with d3ad connection: why does it matter? I've really enjoyed Prey; deathwalk just prevented me from getting bored or stuck at a specific point in the story.

I was just using the work example to illustrate my point.

We can't change anything in Prey, but I don't want developers getting the idea that such a system is good. Lord knows they already ruined CoD2 with that ridiculous health regen.

[syncronic]

Deathwalk is kinda funny and ironic. In the end the Mother tries to entice Tommy with immortality to replace her and here im thinking with Deathwalk I'm already immortal! ;)

I do think it would cool if there were ways Tommy could loose his deathwalk ability. I have to agree that its not enough of a consequence even though that never stopped me from dodging bullets.

[Zegraphoob]

More on topic -- I concur with d3ad connection: why does it matter?

This thread is four pages full of complaints, why it matters for us, and Came "Mr. Obvious" O73 asks why it matters?


I've really enjoyed Prey; deathwalk just prevented me from getting bored or stuck at a specific point in the story.

Deathwalk prevented me from being entertained, so I got bored very quickly. And getting stuck at a specific point in the story is something I'm crying for, it is a long time ago a challenging game got released :( Modern games exaggerate way too much with everything "being fair" and "for all audiences regardless of difficulty level" and other polluting material.

Of course, it is not all deathwalk its fault, a big part of the boredom is also because the game just is boring - without interesting battles and puzzles.

[d3ad connection]

Well then, thats you. You got bored, we got entertained. Theres no use in fighting about it, so just go download that mini-mod that removes deathwalk and be happy.

[Foxy]

Ah, I see "we've agreed to disagree, so shut up" is cropping up. Sounds like someone lost an argument.

[d3ad connection]

Huh? I'm just tired of all this arguing about something that wont change.
Here:
http://forums.3drealms.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21514
Download and be happy.

[Zegraphoob]

Well then, thats you. You got bored, we got entertained. Theres no use in fighting about it, so just go download that mini-mod that removes deathwalk and be happy.

Guy, you have made it clear a few times in this thread you don't feel like discussing. To tell you the truth, no one cares that you are tired of how others are discussing. It does not even make sense you are tired of seeing others discussing, no one forces you to read this thread. Why don't you just stick to the millions of other Prey threads in this forum and skip this thread next time you browse the Prey forums?

[DiscoDave]

All I know is that I chuckled every time I saw one of those 'vagina' openings. Those were great!

Also, I saw a few times where an injured enemy would use up a 'health' supplement before I could get to it. That was pretty cool.

Oh.. Sorry... is there a debate going on? ;)

[prey fan]

Are You Guys are Idiots Deathwalk Saves Your Ass In A Boss Fight And Not Stupid Ok How Mant Times Did You Die In The Game And Just Think That If You Were At The End Of The Chapter And You Die Then You Have To Start All Over At The Begging Of The Chapter So You Thank Deathwalk For Saving You In Prey And I Hope To See More Options For Deathwalk

[Justintiime]

Not Every Word Has To Have A Capital Letter Man!

[prey fan]

your telling me how to right my fourm ahhhhhhh...no i can put this anyway i want

[Justintiime]

see? no more capital letters at the beginning of every word...must have worked :D

[prey fan]

Are You Stupid

[d3ad connection]

We're way off topic here.

[prey fan]

Not Every Word Has To Have A Capital Letter Man!
(NOT EVERY WORD HAS TO HAVE A CAPITAL LETTER)

[prey fan]

Stop Being A Bitch You Ass

[Justintiime]

We're way off topic here.

agreed. Learn some tact too, if you are going to try to be an e-thug :D

edit: damn you, you changed what you said!

[prey fan]

We're way off topic here.HAR HAR

[Justintiime]

Its you're. Not your.

[d3ad connection]

YOUR A BITCH

Reported.

[prey fan]

Im Dont Care Ok!

[Justintiime]

Im Dont Care Ok!

for someone who doesnt care, I find it funny that you edited your post, after it was quoted for everyone to see lol

[ADM]

That's enough thanks.

:lock: