No puzzle bosses!

[Echo Black]

Just finished Duke 3D for the billionth time and realized how much I love the bosses on it. I think I am the only person that loves the Alien Queen fight from Episode 4. Everyone seems to hate it because you fight underwater...:dopefish:

Back on topic: I know that GB and Joe, and probably other 3DR members read this forums from time to time, so here's a protip: Keep puzzle bosses out of DNF. They're no fun! Give the player an opportunity to waste all the ammo he has been collecting, giant boss monsters have been scientifically proven the best targets for such practice :) To me, a Duke Nukem FPS is all about your guns, your ammo, and what you can do with it. Puzzle bosses like Chthon from Quake, or most Half-Life bosses, are lame as hell. I don't want to pull levers to make the boss fall on a trap, I want to strafe around madly filling his ugly face with explosives :cool: .

This was one of the coolest aspects of Duke Nukem 3D, you could kill a boss with the Pistol, or the Shotgun. Or even the Freezegun! I still remember killing the Cycloid Emperor with Pipebombs...Took me lots of time, but it sure was much funner than simply emptying the Devastator at him :love:.

Please, bring this kind of freedom and fun back for DNF ;) . If this is in, I'll be thankful to 3DR...FOREVER! *b-doom, pchh!*

[ReadOnly]

Yeah!

It's not good if you can kill the boss only after several deaths and some variations because first you must solve this puzzle.

[Mr.Sociopath]

I kind of agree.. but.. at least, don't make explosion seem like mosquito stings to the bosses.. even if it takes 100 rocket to kill the boss.. the first to the last rocket should have an apparent effect..(note..same about hand gun bullet..just lesser effect)
edit: +location damage effects on bosses..(injuries and such..)

[Stormfox]

Turok 2 bosses! Haha. "Ooh, it appears that this part of the creature is vulnerable now, I can tell because it flashes white when I shoot it. Now if only I can find out how to stop it from regenerating all its health."

We certainly don't want that in DNF. Hold down the trigger and dodge incoming attacks, that's what we want to do. The last boss of Quake was the most stupid and unrewarding dissapointment in gaming history.

[avatar_58]

We certainly don't want that in DNF. Hold down the trigger and dodge incoming attacks, that's what we want to do.

Who's we? I like either way, but these days I kind of like trying to figure out what to do to a boss rather than just unload 4 million rounds hoping he dies. Painkiller had a very good method, each enemy still had to be shot but you have to do it in a certain spot and there were environmental things to aid you.

These days we can't just have a small boss that you can off in about two seconds, I want to have to put some effort into destroying it. I don't want the Doom 3 wussy Cyberdemon fight, but I also don't want the "shoot 100 times with rockets while avoiding the enemy's mega cannon" type of bosses.....at least not overused anyway.

[StainedCheeks]

yes no puzzle bosses,
had to jump in and agree.

[Ras]

Either way, we need feedback. I hate bosses where you are emptying all of your weapons and you don't know if you're even hurting him or not. I don't need a power bar or him flashing red, but something needs to let you know you are either doing damage or that you are not.

[hell-angel]

I don't like puzzle bosses either. But that is because I am usually not smart enough to solve puzzles. ;) (Unless you can blow up the puzzle and do it the old fashionend way ;) :D )

[Mr.Sociopath]

oh yeah i forgot... puzzle boss doesn't bother me if it's only alternative or just a "helper" ..

edit: someone made a post about a real helper.. just wanted to precise.. puzzle made to handicap enemy boss= ok.. boss that cannot killed another way than with a puzzle= bad.. IMO (and might not apply to some ennemies.. I.e. strictly spiritual ennemy.. Universal A.I. etc..need good reason to have the puzzle..quake bosses = no good..even though the game was fun)

[hiob]

i love puzzle bosses, but I agree not all games are made for them.

[Destroyer]

yes no puzzle bosses,
had to jump in and agree.

I agree as well, just shoot at em like crazy and that should work. anything should go down with a 100 rockets.;)

[ReadOnly]

I want to add that puzzle bosses are OK only if someone or something helping you with various information how to kill it. Maybe some cool xeno-researcher or something like that. But please, no "figure it out on your own when you unload all the ammo or(and) died several times".

[Mr. Milton]

I kind of agree.. but.. at least, don't make explosion seem like mosquito stings to the bosses.. even if it takes 100 rocket to kill the boss.. the first to the last rocket should have an apparent effect..(note..same about hand gun bullet..just lesser effect)
edit: +location damage effects on bosses..(injuries and such..)

Either way, we need feedback. I hate bosses where you are emptying all of your weapons and you don't know if you're even hurting him or not. I don't need a power bar or him flashing red, but something needs to let you know you are either doing damage or that you are not.

This is so true! I want the boss to be in pain and/or get kicked back from a direct hit from a missile. Not like this:
1st missile. Boss ok.
2nd missile. Boss ok.
3rd missile. Boss ok.
4th missile. Boss gibbed.
That makes no sense and it also takes away the respect and awe high powered weapon can/should bring.

Also:
In Resident Evil 4 I had saved my "mega gun" (don't remember what it's called) with something like 2-3 shots in it to a boss, only to realize that the shots where all wasted because I wasn't "supposed" to kill him just yet. That sucks! If a boss needs to be invincible at some point I wanna be aware of it somehow. The bullets could bounce of some power shield or whatever to indicate that this is not the time to put the enemy to rest.

Sometimes it makes sense to not be able to kill the enemy. It might be that you're just supposed to push it back, get it to drop something or just stun it... but if that's the case the game should communicate that to you so you don't fire all your rockets at it for no good.

[Little Conqueror]

There was a freeware platformer that had some neat puzzle bosses, but the thing with them was, they could also be killed normally, though it was much more difficult. I think this is how bosses should be. For instance, there was a boss who rode on a personal lift firing a submachinegun at you. You could shoot him out, or you could make your way up to the top of the lift and make the lift drop all of the way down.

[crunchy superman]

/Agrees with thread. Duke ain't a thinking man's hero - he's just here to kick everything's ass. Severely.

[Kalki]

I agree with a few of the points here:

* We don't need to see a damage meter when location damage on the boss should show how successful we are.
* Similarly, explosive damage should be more severe than normally seen. How does a boss survive that? Size? Highly improbable. It's more acceptable if they shoot your rockets out of the air with guns or lasers and have energy shields or raise metallic, armored gauntlets to take the impact.
* We don't want invulnerable bosses unless they have shields or recognisable super regenerating armor. And puzzle elements to finish them off could be optional(the alternative being consuming too much ammo).
* We don't want puzzle bosses that take away from the action.

That said, I don't see why we can't have puzzle bosses that require gunplay to bring a solution. I really like the Shadow of the Colossus media with the bosses you could climb on to kill them. Imagine crawling(like climbing a mobile ladder) all over a battlelord's ass to put the bullets where it hurts. Or an alien mothership that's taking off so you have to get in, fighting rocketing G-forces and jetpacking troopers before the craft escapes earth's atmosphere.

[SyntaxN]

I want puzzles that make the fight easier, and maybe a bossbattle were you have to solve something before you can kill him/her/whatever. Just holding down the trigger is a way to stupid for me by now, 90´s are over :cool:
Painkiller did it the right way for the most part, while I don´t like the damage meter either. There should be an indication system with wounds etc... instead.

[corn wizard]

Painkiller did it the right way for the most part,

wuz just going to say the same thing- Painkiller had some of the best bosses/puzzles yet.

[bokaj]

I guess i like puzzle bosses .. but still I agree with most of you .. you should not need to read a walk through to figure it out. Pain Killer did it right. When you just unloaded your ammo at the boss it normally wouldn't work but you always got a clear hint about what to do... and it was always a good combination of doing something to weaken the boss and then shoot like crazy in the good old fashioned way ...

[Assault]

I think having both types of bosses would be great.

[Ras]

That said, I don't see why we can't have puzzle bosses that require gunplay to bring a solution. I really like the Shadow of the Colossus media with the bosses you could climb on to kill them. Imagine crawling(like climbing a mobile ladder) all over a battlelord's ass to put the bullets where it hurts. Or an alien mothership that's taking off so you have to get in, fighting rocketing G-forces and jetpacking troopers before the craft escapes earth's atmosphere.

It'd be cool if there was a bigass pigcop that you had to climb on, and there were mutated fleas in his hair that you had to fight. That would be a really nasty sequence.

[Sang]

Who's we? I like either way, but these days I kind of like trying to figure out what to do to a boss rather than just unload 4 million rounds hoping he dies. Painkiller had a very good method, each enemy still had to be shot but you have to do it in a certain spot and there were environmental things to aid you.

These days we can't just have a small boss that you can off in about two seconds, I want to have to put some effort into destroying it. I don't want the Doom 3 wussy Cyberdemon fight, but I also don't want the "shoot 100 times with rockets while avoiding the enemy's mega cannon" type of bosses.....at least not overused anyway.

Fully agreed :)

However if they are going to insert puzzles, make them good and original. None of that "shoot some of the environment first because he regenerates there". The fight with that Count Kleerofski (?) in Serious Sam 2 was pretty fun.

[german duke fan]

i liked the bosses in duke 3d very well, although there was just pumping bullets in them.. but i´d like it to see some signs of progression (dont know if this is the right word). would be nice to see big holes in his skin and so on. i would love it to shoot his arms off with a good aimed rocket, or to blow his head with a perfectly thrown pipebomb. i mean i want the boss to be the environment to act with

[avatar_58]

Well we have to remember - Duke is a modern game and needs modern style bosses. Maybe not as easy as most games have been lately, but we can't just say "I like how Duke3D did it" and expect them to carbon copy that style.

[Zixinus]

I like both puzzle bosses and "simple" bosses. Until it is logical that, for example, you can't harm the boss with normal weapons fire but with a speical method.

[Alexander]

Yeah, i agree totaly!

duke is a man of action, not totally dumb, but a man of brawn. Though the idea of killing a boss in MORE then one way is probably the best way to deal with it. Dicide for yourself if you want to blow him up with plane, drill a hole through him, or just unload all your ammo. Or try this for a change, use a truck and smash the guy!!! The game is all about interactivity, right? So let your imagination go wild!

[brabee]

Well, I vote for puzzle bosses, but cleverly implemented. I mean, remember Opposing Force? Where you had to shoot the boss in the eyes with the mounted guns, then he showed you his vulnerable place and you had to shoot him there? That was dumb IMO.
I think it shouldnt be a problem if Duke would hint you how to kill the boss, or there could be an animation which would suggest that.

[Amakou]

I most certainly do not want hints of any kind. Especially about how to beat a boss. I hate it when characters are omnipotent and always know the weakness...maybe if Duke was wrong about it though...

~Amakou~

[Commando Nukem]

I most certainly do not want hints of any kind. Especially about how to beat a boss. I hate it when characters are omnipotent and always know the weakness...maybe if Duke was wrong about it though...

~Amakou~

I think Manhatten project and DN3D had some of the better bosses in Dukes game series... No I take that back, I really enjoyed Zero Hours bosses(The Hog Tank and the final boss were saweet. Not to mention the queen octabrain!).

I really think Duke should get into those "conversations" that he did in Manhatten Project.

"You wanted to fight!? FIGHT ME!" Lizahdninja

"Im not gonna fight you... Im gonna KICK YOUR ASS!" Duke.

w00t.

[Malgon]

Interesting points being made about bosses here. I'd like to just blow the shit out of bosses, but there to be pain skins and such, so then you'd know when you're actually causing some hurt to the mofos. Still some puzzle bosses where you use the environment, or objects in it, to somehow cripple the boss would be better than some flashing red limbs saying `shoot this now'. That'd make it much more real I guess, and more logical in terms of the gameworld imo. :)

[warman2338]

I like the idea that you unload rounds at the enemy, and then you can pull "the lever" to deal extra damage. Has a little bit of both - but you dont HAVE to pull "the lever", it just makes it easy on your part.

[Echo Black]

Just finished Duke Nukem: Manhattan Project. The bosses on it were also oldschool, straight fight with a monster using all you've got :D. But it's a sidescroller so it doesn't count much. It's rare to see non-puzzle bosses in nowadays' FPSs. They are most satisfying than pulling levers or activating traps, because you actually feel you accomplished something. Don't you guys remember the thrill of the first time you managed to slay a Cyberdemon in Doom? ;) His body crumbling to the ground, torn apart. It's the ammo you've been saving up, right there.

[Needle]

I'm not generally against puzzle bosses, but sometimes they can be pretty unsatisfying. I've been playing Serious Sam 2 recently. At one boss fight I had to shoot lots of regular enemies instead of the boss, which kinda died by himself after a while. Another one was killed by shooting freakin' lamp posts! I mean, come on!

Can't we have "puzzles" that actually involve fighting the boss? Like having to get cover when he unleashes a particulary powerfull attack? Or maybe blowing off the most powerfull weapon first to raise my chance of survival? And what about the good old fashioned aiming for a hard to hit vulnerable spot?

[Tim. Just Tim.]

No puzzle bosses!

No puzzle anything, please, for that matter.


Can't we have "puzzles" that actually involve fighting the boss? Like having to get cover when he unleashes a particulary powerfull attack? Or maybe blowing off the most powerfull weapon first to raise my chance of survival? And what about the good old fashioned aiming for a hard to hit vulnerable spot?

Absolutely, Id expect nothing less!
However I certainly wouldnt call any of this 'puzzles'.

[infowars]

no puzzle bosses...

(but this depends...do you mean all bosses are just shoot and kill. thats it? or each boss might have a weak point...or something?? but please, no annoying..."shoot that box above his head" to kill him.)????

no jumping puzzles

no 'stack the crates to get into the vent' areas:doh:

no MAZE like levels...

(its a FUN game, not work...I want open large levels...I dont want to get lost in a enclosed indoor area..."oh, THATS WHERE THE TINY VENT WAS...":doh:

Just finished Duke Nukem: Manhattan Project. The bosses on it were also oldschool, straight fight with a monster using all you've got :D. But it's a sidescroller so it doesn't count much. It's rare to see non-puzzle bosses in nowadays' FPSs. They are most satisfying than pulling levers or activating traps, because you actually feel you accomplished something. Don't you guys remember the thrill of the first time you managed to slay a Cyberdemon in Doom? ;) His body crumbling to the ground, torn apart. It's the ammo you've been saving up, right there.

AMEN!

[Tim. Just Tim.]

Slightly off topic but if you like puzzle bosses, play Painkiller.
Its an awesome game to start with, and the bosses are a little bit 'puzzly'. You dont simply shoot them till theyre dead.

[Haanz]

Painkiller bosses were awesome, and I hate puzzles bosses. But I think this mainly has something to do with HOW FREAKING HUGE THEY WERE.

Size and purdy looks aside, I have to jump on the 'no puzzle bosses' bandwagon.

Why?

Above all, replayability. Sure, they're fun (or sometimes frustrating to the point of looking up a walkthrough) the first time around. But a second play through and you'll remember the method, making it short, easy, etc.

A good boss is a test of the skills the player has developed earlier in the level. For most FPS games, that skill is shooting. So let me shoot, please.

[Supreme Eight Ball]

I love the Painkiller bosses too! :D
That´s how the bosses in DNF should be huge, some intelligence required, and loads of skill. :)

[Micki!]

I still vote for having a Battlelord, or similar boss, With armored plating...

Gunshots will do damage, despite the armor, but using rocketswill destroy the armor slowly, peice by piece after an amounts of shots... nothing that's necessary to do, but it will make regular bullets do more damage when you hit somewhere where there's no armor anymore...

I personally think this would be cool... something that's there, but isn't necessary...

Might as well save the rockets, and use bullets, since they are easyer to find than rockets, i assume...

Maybe even the environment can be dangerous to him (and you..? :o) this would add a puzzle element, without forcing you to use it at all...

[Yatta]

I love the Painkiller bosses too! :D
That´s how the bosses in DNF should be huge, some intelligence required, and loads of skill. :)
I agree; the Painkiller bosses are the best bosses in a game ever. I also love your avatar. :D

[Kalki]

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/article/644/644151/shadow-of-the-colossus-20050822040549769.jpg

Imagine a Nevada canyon sequence, Duke on mule and the desert worm from the E3'01 video. Now imagine being able to "switch rides" when it eats your mule.

[Nemesis 01]

I think it would be cool with bosses that could be beaten in many different ways... Remember the boss in Fallout?? You could either kill Master, talk him into killing himself or just activate the self-destruct sequence and never even meet him...

Now it doesn't have to be that complicated in DNF... But maybe more like in Super Mario Bros... You can shoot the boss, or you can sneak past him and drop him into lava...

[helious]

im in for puzzle bosses

[MakronMan]

i would not mind puzzle bosses as long as they keep it straight forward like blowing up his weapon first then shooting for the boss

[Tim. Just Tim.]

i would not mind puzzle bosses as long as they keep it straight forward like blowing up his weapon first then shooting for the boss

I hate arbitrary rules like that, that the player is just supposed to magically know. Ok sure make the boss's weapon blow-up-able. I'm more than ok with that. But dont make it so we have to blow it up, before we are able to hurt the boss itself.

[Micki!]

I hate arbitrary rules like that, that the player is just supposed to magically know. Ok sure make the boss's weapon blow-up-able. I'm more than ok with that. But dont make it so we have to blow it up, before we are able to hurt the boss itself.

i agree, that simply doesn't make sense, unless the weapon is a shield device of some sort... but in that case, the weapon itself would be shielded too...

I'd rather have a strategy oriented boss, than an actual puzzle boss, so that i can decide my way to kill him...

[cd_toaster]

i dont like puzzle bosses either, just have a tonne of ammo waste waste it on his ass. then have cool cut scenes, you *have* to love it when he pulls out the paper and sh*ts in it

[lethal]

i hate these kind of boss, huges and etc... how about making them with a reasonable size and more intelligent and how about a boss that have a bio system similar to human, here it doesnt require to shot him 100 times with a rocket, i think that i just lame, it would be much more cool and challenge if the boss could "think" a way how to kill u, taking cover behind objects, flanking etc... dont need to be "puzzle" but the way how the AI would be playing would force u to do some tactic, to kill the boss and which boss should have a level of "clue" based on what i said, huge monsters are dumb, repetitive and it kills the gameplay, a "boss" dont need to be huge to put a good fight.

[Micki!]

i hate these kind of boss, huges and etc... how about making them with a reasonable size and more intelligent and how about a boss that have a bio system similar to human, here it doesnt require to shot him 100 times with a rocket, i think that i just lame, it would be much more cool and challenge if the boss could "think" a way how to kill u, taking cover behind objects, flanking etc... dont need to be "puzzle" but the way how the AI would be playing would force u to do some tactic, to kill the boss and which boss should have a level of "clue" based on what i said, huge monsters are dumb, repetitive and it kills the gameplay, a "boss" dont need to be huge to put a good fight.

About the intelligence par ti must agree, but not the thing with the size...

In fact, i'd REALLY want to see a BIG enemy (boss) with a good AI...
That makes him just as dangerous as an intelligent foe, and even more so, because of his massive size and strength...

I'm kind of tired by killing these Big "tanks"... So something like intelligent behaviour would be damn interesting... (An example, would be the Cyclops form DArk Messiah, who do lot's of stuff, but basicly are just big machines who wants to kill you... If they were both big, and fast, and powerfull, THEN it would be something completely different)

Imagine fighting a Battlelord, who actually AVOIDS incoming rockets, if he can, and takes cover if there is any, and if needed...

[Commando Nukem]

About the intelligence par ti must agree, but not the thing with the size...

In fact, i'd REALLY want to see a BIG enemy (boss) with a good AI...
That makes him just as dangerous as an intelligent foe, and even more so, because of his massive size and strength...

I'm kind of tired by killing these Big "tanks"... So something like intelligent behaviour would be damn interesting... (An example, would be the Cyclops form DArk Messiah, who do lot's of stuff, but basicly are just big machines who wants to kill you... If they were both big, and fast, and powerfull, THEN it would be something completely different)

Imagine fighting a Battlelord, who actually AVOIDS incoming rockets, if he can, and takes cover if there is any, and if needed...

Size does come into play though. Large creatures generally have a hard time moving rapidly. You're not gonna see a Battle Lord "Hit the deck" ... Not like Duke would. Just doesn't work when (Realities) physics come into play.

[Micki!]

Perhaps then make his massive size more fitted to him... such as he'd be able to knock down pillars, crash through walls, kick chuncks of whatever objects after you etc... Whatever one would expect a big and intelligent creature would be able to do, should be considired to be put in here...

Gor instance the Cyclops form Dark Messiah, (even though i used it as a negative example before...) i liked the fact, that it would lift up some big rock you're hiding under, instead of just walking around it, and wating till you get out... Or if you're far away, and it's near some object, it would kick it after you, or throw it...
Stuff like this would be nice to have in, and it's especially something i'd expect an intelligent creature to do...

Wouldn't it be ridiculous if a Cyclops managed to perform more varied forms of actions in a fight, than a Battlelord..? :cool:

[tony]

I'm cool with puzzle bosses just as long as there is some kind of visual cue that you're doing the right thing.

Nothing is worse that wasting half your ammo shooting a boss' comically large eye to later find out you're supposed to be shooting a one inch round red dot on his back.

[Micki!]

I'm cool with puzzle bosses just as long as there is some kind of visual cue that you're doing the right thing.

Nothing is worse that wasting half your ammo shooting a boss' comically large eye to later find out you're supposed to be shooting a one inch round red dot on his back.

True...
But a glowing spot on his body seems too "erhh..?!" for me...
It should be OBVIOUS, if there is a certain spot you'd have to focus on...
Or at least so it makes logical sense, like armored parts won't hurt, while actual hits on the body will...

[Hal_emmerich]

Don't forget, puzzle bosses also lead to interesting ways of death. Whats more 'Duke-ish' in these situations?

Fighting a boss inside a condemned building, you could shoot the life out of him for 3 hours, or (depending on the physics in the game) take out the walls/set of demolition charges and bring the whole building down on top of him.

Attempting to fight off a fighter shaped spaceship from inside a hotel, why blast the spaceship when you can drop the hotel's large neon sign on the ship.

And of course, for one of the big aliens, why not lure him out into the highway and let a 18 wheel gasoline tanker or bullet train plow into him, not necessarily killing him but definitely doing damage.

Point is, puzzle bosses can be great, but make sure the puzzles are A: Optional, and B: The alternative is really worth the extra work. A good example was the destroyer robot in Red Faction, which was this giant security drone in a trash incinerator facility. The designers intended for you to lead it into the trash incinerator and put it to death, but due to poor AI it was honestly easier to just shoot the thing until it died

[DavoX]

Don't forget, puzzle bosses also lead to interesting ways of death. Whats more 'Duke-ish' in these situations?

Fighting a boss inside a condemned building, you could shoot the life out of him for 3 hours, or (depending on the physics in the game) take out the walls/set of demolition charges and bring the whole building down on top of him.

Attempting to fight off a fighter shaped spaceship from inside a hotel, why blast the spaceship when you can drop the hotel's large neon sign on the ship.

And of course, for one of the big aliens, why not lure him out into the highway and let a 18 wheel gasoline tanker or bullet train plow into him, not necessarily killing him but definitely doing damage.

Point is, puzzle bosses can be great, but make sure the puzzles are A: Optional, and B: The alternative is really worth the extra work. A good example was the destroyer robot in Red Faction, which was this giant security drone in a trash incinerator facility. The designers intended for you to lead it into the trash incinerator and put it to death, but due to poor AI it was honestly easier to just shoot the thing until it died
Best post in this thread.

[Imperius]

I agree wholeheartedly 8)

[Dead Meat]

Another good example was the Gargantua from Half-Life...you basically had to lure him and fry him with electricity. I'd like to see similar stuff in DNF.

[The Frederick]

Yeah, I don't like puzzle bosses. Although what I'd like to see is a boss with a specific weak point. That hasn't been fully explored in FPS games, it's mostly a rail shooter thing.

[George Broussard]

A lot of good points above, but there's something to remember...

It's not 1996 anymore and circle strafing bosses is way too old school.

[Supreme Eight Ball]

Perhaps a one-on-one approach like Unreal Tournament would be nice for one of the bosses. Duke is a hero and a hero needs an arch-enemy. (Proton is too unimpressive for my taste).

Another suggestion... So, there´s Duke, a real man with desert eagles, shotguns, grenades, etc. What about a certain stage in which Duke would lose all his weapons and would have to fight only with his own fists? That would be a challenge, let´s see if the man still has guts without guns. ;)

[Supreme Eight Ball]

To George...

Circle strafing is a repetitive movement that can be broken with a map full of "garbage" and/or minions that come from the opposite direction of the boss (instead of inside him).

[Kalki]

It's not 1996 anymore and circle strafing bosses is way too old school.

I wonder what new moves Duke's got? ;)

[Micki!]

I'm wondering how different all boss fights will be, in comparison to each others...

Personally, i hope that no boss fight will be to similar... It would be disapointing to find out that the next boss is just like the previous one, and so on...
I'd rather like something different each time... Not necessarily the way to beat him, but the environment should deffenately change from time to time... It shouldn't just be some arena, then you fight (and win) and proceed in a "normal" level environment... However, since arena's are too common, and almost needed for boss fights... Well, it can be done right anyways i guess...

I hope there WON'T be any of those "locked at place" enemies, where they are stuck somewhere, and simply keep attacking you from there, while you seek cover, and attack when the time is right... Examples are for instance the last boss (Nexus..?) from Quake 4... It was not really a "fight", but more a "survive, and attack this point till it's destroyed"-kind of thing... When i hear "Boss" i think "hard enemy"... That said that they move, and attack, and probably even think...

[Assault]

As long as the final Boss is the toughest, coolest part of the game I would be happy. Just like a good movie, every game needs its climax.

[baff]

Not even a tiny weeny puzzle boss.
An itsy bitsy one.
Minipuzzleboss, the clone child of PuzzleBoss.

[DudeNukem]

Whoa, it's been a long time since my last post.

I don't mind puzzle bosses, as long as the puzzles aren't too complicated and I don't have to die 8 times before I figure out I gotta shoot some things in the roof that are gonna fall on the baddie... *cough cough* Max Payne 2 *cough cough*

:p

[Mr.Sociopath]

A lot of good points above, but there's something to remember...

It's not 1996 anymore and circle strafing bosses is way too old school.

I agree.. we should just be able to head shot the boss and that's it :p

[baff]

I think we should stop him from being able to reproduce and then let him live.

[Kalki]

I think we should stop him from being able to reproduce and then let him live.

:D Clearly, that's not Duke. He's more likely to mow down the alien queen so she can't breed no more then stick a pipebomb up her ***** before remote-detonating it.

[AdamCommando]

Above all, replayability. Sure, they're fun (or sometimes frustrating to the point of looking up a walkthrough) the first time around. But a second play through and you'll remember the method, making it short, easy, etc.

A good boss is a test of the skills the player has developed earlier in the level. For most FPS games, that skill is shooting. So let me shoot, please.

I agree with this easily. A person's ability to shoot and maneuver should be tested. Along with whatever new actions you can take, like driving. I want to shoot a boss while riding a motorcycle or something.

In fact, you could drive around a boss on a motorcycle (technically, that isn't circle strafing).

[Kupferdrache]

I want both!

I want some bosses you can just circle-strafe and just empty your ammo-supplies into them and I want cool puzzle-bosses that actually fit in the environment (remember Half-Life 1)!
@George: Do the right thing: Give us both!

[Dead Meat]

Yeah, there should be all kinds of bosses.

[The Frederick]

A lot of good points above, but there's something to remember...

It's not 1996 anymore and circle strafing bosses is way too old school.

Puzzle bosses are worse, IMO. If it's just "flip this switch, go to the next room, flip that switch" without firing a gun once, it pretty much nullifies the game as an FPS and makes it something like Myst.

[Kalki]

Half-life's end-boss had you shooting switches to defeat it, so making puzzles combat-oriented reinforces the FPS's characteristics.

[Kupferdrache]

I more meant "tentacle-thing" boss you could fry with a rocket engine. That was cool (when played for the first time).

Also, a combination would be cool: a) do the trick and now b) you can circle strife them.

So I want three kinds of bosses:
a) Ones to simply shoot down,
b) Pure puzzle bosses
c) First solve a puzzle, then shoot down bosses (maybe with several stages, so he flees in between and you have to solve another puzzle).

[Monkey Butler]

How about a boss that you simply shoot down, but it's almost too powerful for the weapons you have at that stage in the game, and it's guarding like a Nuke Launcher or whatever. So while fighting the boss, you have to solve a puzzle or whatever to access the weapon and some ammo, and then you can kill the boss a lot easier. That would give you some options - either just kill the boss, which is longer and uses up heaps more ammo, and then pick up the new weapon after the boss is dead, or you can go the harder route to pick up the gun earlier, and kill the boss quicker.

[Dead Meat]

A boss that runs away from you...you have to chase him through several levels!

[Assault]

Puzzle bosses are worse, IMO. If it's just "flip this switch, go to the next room, flip that switch" without firing a gun once, it pretty much nullifies the game as an FPS and makes it something like Myst.

That's a badly designed Puzzle-boss.

[Amakou]

In my opinion, the puzzle shouldn't kill them, but it should deal a good amount of damage.

For example, there could be a large boulder hanging on a cliff, shoot the cliff with the rocket launcher, and the boulder hits the boss, dealing 1/4 of his HP in damage. Then you can continue to blast the hell out of him.

That way the puzzle-type thing helps you and is optional, while you blast him.

~Amakou~

[Micki!]

In my opinion, the puzzle shouldn't kill them, but it should deal a good amount of damage.

For example, there could be a large boulder hanging on a cliff, shoot the cliff with the rocket launcher, and the boulder hits the boss, dealing 1/4 of his HP in damage. Then you can continue to blast the hell out of him.

That way the puzzle-type thing helps you and is optional, while you blast him.

~Amakou~

But that's not a puzzle element..! It's just use of the environment...

Shooting an explosive barrels, or activating traps are no different than this..!
However, that doesn't mean i don't agree, because i think it WOULD be cool if the environment could be used to deal extra damage on Bosses (as well on regular enemies)...

There are similar scenes in other games with environments used as weapons... Like when fighting a cyclops in Dark Messaih (most encounters had a trap or objects that would help in battle, but weren't necessary to use at all...) And Resident Evil 4 had places like this too... the encounters with the El Gigante's always had traps and stuff in the environment to help... But also there, it wasn't necessary to use at all... it did help alot though..!

Stuff like this would be extremely cool to have in DNF aswell..!

[crunchy superman]

A lot of good points above, but there's something to remember...

It's not 1996 anymore and circle strafing bosses is way too old school.

I thought Duke is supposed to be the epitome of old school bad ass. :confused: