Allgames wants Gamers to talk in their show about Product Activation

[pcgamer23708]

Allgames.com has a show called "All Games Interactive" which in their own words is "a 3 hour live talk show hosted by Scot Rubin featuring news and information from all over the gaming industry" and they decide to do one about "Product Activation" in PC Games (or in Games overall I'm not sure).

So they are looking for PC Gamers which are against and oppose Product Activation in PC Games to talk in their show. I was invited but unfortunately due to the nature of the show I will not be able to participate. I'm really sorry and disappointed cause I wanted very much to give my best contribution but it can't happen. Nevertheless I wanted to leave this info about Allgames.com looking for PC Gamers which are against Product Activation to talk in their.

Although I'm not sure if it only focus PC Games but all Gaming platforms I think it is best PC Gamers to be the ones talking against Product Activation and becoming the "leaders". PC Gamers are more developed than consolists so I really would like to see a PC Gamer doing the talk against Product Activation
and not a consolist.

Now for the details... I don't know all but here are some:

. The show is called "All Games Interactive"
. The show seems to be daily and its a audio talk-show.
. The interview is conducted via the internet and via sound.
. They want to use Skype when doing the interview.
. The Gamer can be completely anonymous.
. It seems you have to be available in Skype in a day they choose in some hours during the afternoon US Pacific time, so for Europeans that is middle of the night.

More details can be discussed with them Allgames.com Btw I'm doing this by my own, I'm not doing this for Allgames neither they asked me to do it. The thing is I feel I disappointed by not participation so now the least I can do is make sure the best PC Gamers goes there and does a great job cause PC Games need it.

I feel we can't let go this opportunity to be heard and speak out about Product Activation in PC Games cause the truth is the media and the press has been completely silent about it. Also very important the Gamer will not be representing me. I don't have anything to do with the show neither he will be "replacing" me cause I was never announced. Bottom line what is important is a PC Gamer be there and show the feeling many PC Gamers have against the use of Product Activation in PC Games.

Now for those interested you can contact me and I will give your contact to Allgames.com so they can contact you. I don't want to leave the Allgames.com contact cause they didn't ask me to do this so if they end up having millions of spam they will complain against me.

For those that do not like this deal, they can also contact Allgames.com directly by email or via their forum.

If anyone wants to discuss with me the topics he feels must be prepared before the show and the interview I'm ready to help and discuss it with him.

More in Allgames.com:
http://www.allgames.com/

Thanks and I hope the show ends up being another way to show the industry many PC Gamers are against Product Activation.

[crunchy superman]

I don't have any problem with a one time product activation for games.

p.s. wordwrap is your friend. ;)

[Wamplet]

I don't have any problem with a one time product activation for games.

Agreed.

[GodBlitZor]

Ive never had a problem with game activation.

[Odin]

Game Activation is cool if it isn't invasive. I may get Skype just to show up.

[0marTheZealot]

I don't have any problem with a one time product activation for games.



Same here. Especially, if that product activation also lets you download the game incase your physical disks are lost (steam is a good example).

[Duoae]

I only have a problem with game activation if it compromises your ability to return a defective product or a product you feel it not worth the money you paid for it etc... like any other product you buy.

I hate constant product verification etc though.

[avatar_58]

Are they accepting? I'm strongly opposed and ALWAYS up for a rant or two. I'd be willing to do it, just tell me where to sign up.

EDIT2 - Is this a debate or would it just be me giving my point of view? I'm curious whether I should take part or not.

[pcgamer23708]

Are they accepting? I'm strongly opposed and ALWAYS up for a rant or two. I'd be willing to do it, just tell me where to sign up.

Please show up avatar_58!
You are the right Gamer for the job!

If you want, you can email me at pcgamer23708@yahoo.com and I will send your email contact to my Allgames.com contact so you can discuss details directly with them.
If you don't want my mediation you can always try contact Allgames.com directly by email or in their forum.

I really think it would be better and faster if you did in fact used me to get to them, I'll promise I will delete your email address after sending it to Allgames.com and will not use it to anything else.

EDIT2 - Is this a debate or would it just be me giving my point of view? I'm curious whether I should take part or not.

I'm not sure cause I never saw a show in Allgames.com (I don't have broadband) but probably there can be both, a kind of interview with some kind of debate, nevertheless either are worthy to try.

[avatar_58]

If you want, you can email me at pcgamer23708@yahoo.com and I will send your email contact to my Allgames.com contact so you can discuss details directly with them.


Will do. I've got some people willing to back me up with material too. (Well known in this particular forum). I imagine it would be quite an experience.

Check my blog (http://avatar58.blogspot.com/) for a post on the subject. I held back on some points in case they do want me to come on. If not, well thats ok.

[Jiminator]

yeah, i am sure this is real.... lol. Product activation, a trillion dollar company can't make it happen, next it will be the gamiing companies feeding the shaft to the honest gamers.

[Zixinus]

Product activitation works, belive it or not. HL2 was it, and it was much harder to pirate it then other games where you have to simply download the game and apply a crack.

I don't care how many ******** I will start ranting about this, but I think online service and verification is a good and new thing.

[Jiminator]

really? it hasn't changed anything in the illegal distribution of any of the source games, except that now the files are decrypted and the cracks pre-applied, so it is easier to install them than ever. meanwhile good customers can't buy the game and play, but instead they have to signup with steam and hope the servers are up (which was a problem for HL2) etc. this stuff only punishes the paying customers, it does nothing to deter piracy.

[Opus131]

really? it hasn't changed anything in the illegal distribution of any of the source games, except that now the files are decrypted and the cracks pre-applied, so it is easier to install them than ever.


Yes, but that came later. There was no pirated copy during release, which is where it matters most. People who wanted to play the game but didn't want to pay for it were forced to buy a brand new copy, which is a first as far as i know. Who cares if it was eventually cracked? It's the first few weeks that are important.


meanwhile good customers can't buy the game and play, but instead they have to signup with steam and hope the servers are up (which was a problem for HL2) etc. this stuff only punishes the paying customers, it does nothing to deter piracy.

I never had a problem with Steam. That's why i'm a good customer i guess...

[Zixinus]

They are not punishing anybody, and the only the first versions were cracked with great effort.

[Hudson]

Yeah, Steam is great. It had a ton of problems at first however they seemed to have worked them out.

It downloads patches automatically, has full lists of thousands of servers, download demos on-the-fly, free weekends and some awesome homebrew games.. not to mention the awesome birth of episodic content.

This is obviously the future for PC Games (and with XB Live, etc.. possibly the future for consoles too). Steam-haters are stuck in their old ways and will most likely never give in (they're like old people who refuse to use a "Capooter" or the "Interweb"), however that's fine with me.. they just miss out on some killer games and awesome matches.

[avatar_58]

Why does everyone bring up steam btw? The program itself and the method of distribution is fine. The real demon here is the authentication. Some of us enjoy classic games, and prefer knowing if HL2 will work in years time.

[Duoae]

Yeah, also i'd prefer to be able to transfer my game to another account without extra cost. That shouldn't be allowed, it's paying for a "service" which they're denying you in the first place.

[Hudson]

Why does everyone bring up steam btw? The program itself and the method of distribution is fine. The real demon here is the authentication. Some of us enjoy classic games, and prefer knowing if HL2 will work in years time.

Valve has made it well known if they were to go out of buisness, etc. they would release a program to remove all activation.

Yeah, also i'd prefer to be able to transfer my game to another account without extra cost. That shouldn't be allowed, it's paying for a "service" which they're denying you in the first place.

I do agree with you here, perhaps in time.

[Duoae]

Valve has made it well known if they were to go out of buisness, etc. they would release a program to remove all activation.

Promises mean nothing in business.

If someone bought them out (as would happen if they got so financially in debt that they couldn't avoid it - you can't stop that sort of thing) then they would keep control of the HL universe including games etc....

[Hudson]

In that case whoever bought them out would most likely keep Steam running to continue sales.

I doubt it'll ever happen, however.

[avatar_58]

Yeah, also i'd prefer to be able to transfer my game to another account without extra cost. That shouldn't be allowed, it's paying for a "service" which they're denying you in the first place.

Actually you *can* do that. I did it with my HL1 cd-key and it worked without me paying a dime. Email Steam support.

[Duoae]

Ah okay, my mistake then. I thought they brought in a charge for the ability to do it. :)

[Babe]

Can't understand how some of you guys can actually support one time activate or activation in general at all. And such things as Steam. Well for your information, I have purchased over 30+ PC titles for me, but I would like to bitch even for the stratches that I get on the CD. Under such circumstances, I can't understand how you can support activation or online authentication as such ?! This is completely unbelievable in my humble opinion.

[Hudson]

Online activation prevents casual pirating (note: casual), while hackers will still break the code it stops novice users from making a copy for a friend.

It's going to eventually come down to "no more PC games" or "authentication", and personally.. between those two options, I choose "authentication".

Online activation is obviously the future, and more and more companies are going to be employing these techniques. I suggest either getting used to it, or go buy a console. In my humble opinion of course.

[Edit]: Also, something to think about: Would you rather have online authentication, or Starforce-like protection measures? The choice seems obvious.

[Jiminator]

ok, which of those schemes did oblivion use? Hmmm? Is it one of the most successful games ever?

game companies want to whine about piracy, but the fact is that people will pay money for good games.

[Hudson]

Game companies have the right to whine about piracy, because the fact is that they lose millions upon millions of dollars because of it.

Piracy is killing the PC game industry, and even though it may not destroy giants like Ubisoft, VUGames, or EA.. it kills off new and independant developers. This is a solid fact, and your "people pay money for good games, shitty games get downloaded" argument is so false and naive it's rediculous.

You should try reading the views of an independant industry professional, and then see how you feel:

http://www.romsteady.net/blog/2006/07/games-hidden-cost-of-piracy.html

http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2006/072606_ritual_piracy_1.x

[Gryph]

Actually you *can* do that. I did it with my HL1 cd-key and it worked without me paying a dime. Email Steam support.
How recently was this? I would like to do that actually. Could you please PM me the email address you used? I've tried asking a question on their support thing but had no luck.

[avatar_58]

How recently was this? I would like to do that actually. Could you please PM me the email address you used? I've tried asking a question on their support thing but had no luck.

Really? Thats actually what I used, the support form. I simply stated that I had two accounts and wished to transfer my CD-KEY from one to the other (I gave both account names). Then they said they would need to see a scanned picture of my CD-KEY. I popped HL GOTY into my scanner, sent it off and awhile later they said 'Done' and logging into my account it was done.
:)

[Gryph]

I see. Well I'll try again. I really want to change accounts. :(

[Steve]

Ive never had a problem with game activation.

Same here.

However, if you don't have an internet connection it sucks. My Father for example...

[Drazula]

They wouldn't even need this show if not for Steam. Whatta surprise.

[Jiminator]

You should try reading the views of an independant industry professional, and then see how you feel:
the people requesting tech support for pirated software are scum, the solution for them is to set up a web form for tech support that requires steam info, any bad info, and forward an email about the info required and details on how to *PURCHASE* the game.

[Hudson]

the people requesting tech support for pirated software are scum, the solution for them is to set up a web form for tech support that requires steam info, any bad info, and forward an email about the info required and details on how to *PURCHASE* the game.

Actually the solution for them is to go out and buy the game :p

Game developers shouldn't have to go out of their way and spend time and money for something people should have already done in the first place.

Your rationalization is rediculous.

[Jiminator]

Your rationalization is rediculous.
ok, RIDICULOUS, plz spell it correctly. :)

[Hudson]

ok, RIDICULOUS, plz spell it correctly. :)

So.. your retort to my statement is pointing out a typo?

I'll take that as a sign that you give up, surrendering to my obviously superior logic.

[Babe]

....

[Edit]: Also, something to think about: Would you rather have online authentication, or Starforce-like protection measures? The choice seems obvious.

Ofcourse obvious, both are 100% crackable. If the game is worth the money, buy it and use a crack. Both StarForce and online authentication are 100% crackable. There are people out there who can crack anything.

Game companies have the right to whine about piracy, because the fact is that they lose millions upon millions of dollars because of it.

Piracy is killing the PC game industry, and even though it may not destroy giants like Ubisoft, VUGames, or EA.. it kills off new and independant developers. This is a solid fact, and your "people pay money for good games, shitty games get downloaded" argument is so false and naive it's rediculous.

......

I agree game companies have the right to whine. But fact is fact and although you may think it is rediculous, I do believe that shitty games are the ones that do get more downloaded then good games. Yes all games are downloaded, but I think if a proper statistics is done, there will be this eventual finding that shitty games get downloaded more. Why ? Because it is a fact that peopl want to pay money only for good products and not everything that's in a shiny box.

[Hudson]

Ofcourse obvious, both are 100% crackable. If the game is worth the money, buy it and use a crack. Both StarForce and online authentication are 100% crackable. There are people out there who can crack anything.

I never said they weren't unbreakable.. So which was the one you'd prefer?

I agree game companies have the right to whine. But fact is fact and although you may think it is rediculous, I do believe that shitty games are the ones that do get more downloaded then good games. Yes all games are downloaded, but I think if a proper statistics is done, there will be this eventual finding that shitty games get downloaded more. Why ? Because it is a fact that peopl want to pay money only for good products and not everything that's in a shiny box.

So you actually believe that pirates never go straight for the AAA titles, the "must have" games that are hyped beyond belief, and instead go for crappy budget titles and other games that no one has ever heard of.

You can't possibly be that naive.

[avatar_58]

Most people who always download games won't play them if they aren't crackable. Its either they can pirate, or they just move on. I sincerly doubt a copy protection scheme has ever forced someone to buy a game retail.

People who buy games aren't doing so simply because "I can't pirate it". I fail to believe that, as even steam itself has been cracked.

[qwerty]

Online activation is great because it prevents piracy !

I know every game is cracked sometime but games with online activation are never downloadable/playable before the actual release date and thats a good thing

[Mblackwell]

Yes, but that came later. There was no pirated copy during release, which is where it matters most. People who wanted to play the game but didn't want to pay for it were forced to buy a brand new copy, which is a first as far as i know. Who cares if it was eventually cracked? It's the first few weeks that are important.

Boy are you dense. It was out on the "scene" day 1, just like everything else.

[Babe]

I never said they weren't unbreakable.. So which was the one you'd prefer?

So you actually believe that pirates never go straight for the AAA titles, the "must have" games that are hyped beyond belief, and instead go for crappy budget titles and other games that no one has ever heard of.

You can't possibly be that naive.

I would prefer anything, as both are 100 % crackable, but may be marginally the online activation thing as it atleast doesnt infect the system with the dreaded infection known as Starforce drivers.

And I have never said that pirates go only for crappy games leaving aside the AAA games. All I say is that games which have genuine quality, even if they will be downloaded, should have greater sales in the retail market because atleast 50 % of people who have downloaded the game will most probably go ahead and buy it cause he/she will be satisfied about the quality. Thus my personal belief is game companies who actually make crappy games suffer more from piracy then a game company who makes quality games. I believe a game company who makes quality games eventually gets more customer because about half of the downloading pirates will most probably buy the game so that they can play online multiplayer etc. So perhaps piracy infact helps them. A non related game example - dont you think Microsoft Windows has become the largest OS in the world because for ages it could have been pirated so easily ? Who benefitted eventually from the piracy. Microsoft now is perhaps the richest company in the world, and uncle Bill the richest man in the world. Microsoft may whine that piracy is costing them billions etc, but this great market that Microsoft is expecting to conquer actually got created because of rampant piracy.

Now dont think I am supporting piracy here. All I want to say is that such things as online activation, copy protections etc doesnt have any impact on the pirates. But if the game companies make quality games, they can actually get more sales courtesy the advertisement they get via online piracy.

[Babe]

Boy are you dense. It was out on the "scene" day 1, just like everything else.

Exactly, and downloading with cracked Steam clients from Steam is still 100 % possible, I know it worked even a couple of weeks back :p .

[Hudson]

And I have never said that pirates go only for crappy games leaving aside the AAA games. All I say is that games which have genuine quality, even if they will be downloaded, should have greater sales in the retail market because atleast 50 % of people who have downloaded the game will most probably go ahead and buy it cause he/she will be satisfied about the quality.

Pirates who download a copy that works have no intention on actually buying it. Sure some people will purchase the product after illegally downloading it, however these people are a fraction of a percent. In relation people have MP3 collections of tens of thousands of songs, of bands they claim to love more than life itself.. and they have no legit CDs to prove it.. you think gamer pirates are any different? The main difference is musicians get income from more than just CD sales, they also have concerts and merch. I'm not saying it makes illegally downloading music more ethical or justified, only pointing out that while it reduces sales for musicians.. it's devastating for game developers. You're argument is wishful (and a little delusional) thinking at it's finest.

The games that have blockbuster sales got to that position because their development efforts were outstanding, and created an awesome product. Simply put, the quality of the game shipped enough units to gain profit over the piracy.

So perhaps piracy infact helps them.

I won't even attempt to retort this, the statement speaks for itself.

A non related game example - dont you think Microsoft Windows has become the largest OS in the world because for ages it could have been pirated so easily ? Who benefitted eventually from the piracy. Microsoft now is perhaps the richest company in the world, and uncle Bill the richest man in the world. Microsoft may whine that piracy is costing them billions etc, but this great market that Microsoft is expecting to conquer actually got created because of rampant piracy.

Yes, it was piracy and not O.E.M. manufacturer contracts, years upon years of support from big buisnesses, and a healthy dose of monopoly and anti-trust lawsuits. Why didn't I see it in the first place.

Now dont think I am supporting piracy here.

You have not only supported it, but attempted to justify it with statements that it actually "helps" developers.

All I want to say is that such things as online activation, copy protections etc doesnt have any impact on the pirates. But if the game companies make quality games, they can actually get more sales courtesy the advertisement they get via online piracy.

So you're saying that piracy provides advertisement by having people steal their product without the intention on ever paying for it, causing poor sales, loss of publisher support, employee layoffs and bankruptcy that will soar them straight to the top.

Right.

[FireFly]

Boy are you dense. It was out on the "scene" day 1, just like everything else.
Perhaps he means before release.

[Babe]

Pirates who download a copy that works have no intention on actually buying it. Sure some people will purchase the product after illegally downloading it, however these people are a fraction of a percent. ....... You're argument is wishful (and a little delusional) thinking at it's finest.


Still the fact remains that copy protection and online activation only makes life difficult for legit purchasers, and pirates still laugh away all their way. So definitely copy protection/activation is not the way pirates can be stopped.


The games that have blockbuster sales got to that position because their development efforts were outstanding, and created an awesome product. Simply put, the quality of the game shipped enough units to gain profit over the piracy.


Well there you see, the success depends on the quality of the game and only quality ( with some quantity ) and a reasonable cost can make people buy the game. Copy protections/activation may increase the game sales, but may be by a negligible percentage. People who are smart enough to know cracks are available, are usually smart enough to find them, either themselves, or through a smart friend. And what is reasonable cost. Just think this

Entire game of Prey DVD : 49.95 AU dollars
Half Life 2 Episode 1 : 25.95 AU dollars :doh:

So you know what is a reasonable purchase ? Again look at old games

Half Life 2 DVD Retail Collectors Edition : AU 100 Dollars
Painkiller Gold Edition : 39.99 AU Dollars

So what is a reasonable purchasing decision ?


I won't even attempt to retort this, the statement speaks for itself.


The example of Microsoft was too good isnt it ?


Yes, it was piracy and not O.E.M. manufacturer contracts, years upon years of support from big buisnesses, and a healthy dose of monopoly and anti-trust lawsuits. Why didn't I see it in the first place.


Anti-trust law suits never are on the mind of a pirate while he/she purcases/downloads a pirated copy. So anti-trust lawsuits have a "zero" value on their mind while making a pirated purchase/downlod decision. O.E.M manufacturers contract also couldn't have Windows so popular because customized assembled PCs still are the majority when you look at the entire world. And infact some O.E.M versions actually lend themselves to easy pirated copies. And the healthy dose of monopoly comes because of 2 reasons : Easy available pirated copies, and easy interface for most people. And easy interface is a "qualititative" factor for most people, both for who buy it or pirate it. So again it's quality that counts you see ?


You have not only supported it, but attempted to justify it with statements that it actually "helps" developers.

So "perhaps" piracy infact helps them. I said the words "perhaps".

But it did with Microsoft isn't it ? Never heard though that a copy protection led a company to sell so many units that it became the richest company in the world or one of the richest ones.


So you're saying that piracy provides advertisement by having people steal their product without the intention on ever paying for it, causing poor sales, loss of publisher support, employee layoffs and bankruptcy that will soar them straight to the top.
Right.

Look at one of the most popular games of all time released in 2001 - Return To Castle Wolfenstein. That game doesnt have any copy protection or activation, just a simple serial check for multiplayer playing. Did id software or Grey Matter studios went bankrupt because of poor sales and have to lay off employees. Never heard that. Rather Return To Castle Wolfenstein sold millions of copies world wide and is still purchased today, in it's official site, new orders can not now be taken because old orders can not be supplied. Wow I know that game has pirated versions floating around in the net. So how come people baught millions of copies and still buy that game today ?

You know what if I play a game, I tell to my friend that that game sucked, so dont buy it. Then my friend will most probably not buy it. So bad quality games which generate bad advertisements loose, and then piracy kills their developers. Good quality games without copy protections/activations still sells in millions as with Return To Castle Wolfenstein.

To sum it up look what you said yourself


The games that have blockbuster sales got to that position because their development efforts were outstanding, and created an awesome product. Simply put, the quality of the game shipped enough units to gain profit over the piracy.


See that is the key. Make quality games and then even piracy cant even stop a game from making great profits. As regards the loss that the same game made because of piracy, well that section will always remain a loss because both online activation/copy protections can be cracked and the game company can not get them back by putting activation/copy potections. It only creates problems/annoyances for a legit owner. But if you make a great game, even without copy protections/ activations you can make huge sells and profits. Example - Return To Castle Wolfenstein.

[Hudson]

Still the fact remains that copy protection and online activation only makes life difficult for legit purchasers, and pirates still laugh away all their way. So definitely copy protection/activation is not the way pirates can be stopped.

No, the fact remains that copy protection and online activation are the only way that we're going to continue to see PC games by PC developers.. because without them no one will develop for the PC because they'll never make any money.

Well there you see, the success depends on the quality of the game and only quality ( with some quantity ) and a reasonable cost can make people buy the game. Copy protections/activation may increase the game sales, but may be by a negligible percentage. People who are smart enough to know cracks are available, are usually smart enough to find them, either themselves, or through a smart friend. And what is reasonable cost. Just think this

Entire game of Prey DVD : 49.95 AU dollars
Half Life 2 Episode 1 : 25.95 AU dollars :doh:

So you know what is a reasonable purchase ? Again look at old games

Half Life 2 DVD Retail Collectors Edition : AU 100 Dollars
Painkiller Gold Edition : 39.99 AU Dollars

So what is a reasonable purchasing decision ?

So you're saying that gamers who are smart enough, should pirate all their favorite games instead of buying them.. because the cost is too unreasonable? Or are you saying that only stupid people pay for legit products legally, to support the developers who worked so hard to create them?

Have you ever stopped to think that one of the reasons games are now so expensive (besides having bigger budgets) is because of piracy?

The example of Microsoft was too good isnt it ?

No, it had more to do with the fact what you said made no possible sense. Actually, it just made you look more like you had no idea what you were talking about.

Anti-trust law suits never are on the mind of a pirate while he/she purcases/downloads a pirated copy. So anti-trust lawsuits have a "zero" value on their mind while making a pirated purchase/downlod decision. O.E.M manufacturers contract also couldn't have Windows so popular because customized assembled PCs still are the majority when you look at the entire world. And infact some O.E.M versions actually lend themselves to easy pirated copies. And the healthy dose of monopoly comes because of 2 reasons : Easy available pirated copies, and easy interface for most people. And easy interface is a "qualititative" factor for most people, both for who buy it or pirate it. So again it's quality that counts you see ?

What I had listed were reasons why Microsoft have become the dominant company they are today, not what was on the mind of any random individual pirate.

The reasons that Microsoft have become the atronomical corperation are today are not due to Piracy. If they were, they wouldn't exist because they would have had no money to continue with their buisness.

Your rambling is making less, and less sense.

So "perhaps" piracy infact helps them. I said the words "perhaps".

But it did with Microsoft isn't it ? Never heard though that a copy protection led a company to sell so many units that it became the richest company in the world or one of the richest ones.

It doesn't help them in any way, shape or form. Microsoft just made enough money off of legitimate sales because their software is so popular.

Also, if Microsoft is so fond of people pirating their software, why are they leading the DRM (Digital Rights Management) revolution attempting to stop piracy?

Look at one of the most popular games of all time released in 2001 - Return To Castle Wolfenstein. That game doesnt have any copy protection or activation, just a simple serial check for multiplayer playing. Did id software or Grey Matter studios went bankrupt because of poor sales and have to lay off employees. Never heard that. Rather Return To Castle Wolfenstein sold millions of copies world wide and is still purchased today, in it's official site, new orders can not now be taken because old orders can not be supplied. Wow I know that game has pirated versions floating around in the net. So how come people baught millions of copies and still buy that game today ?

The developers of RTCW (Gray Matter) had to cancel their next project (Trinity) and were bought by Activision and merged into Treyarch. They no longer make any independant games.

No doubtly they lost millions of dollars to piracy, however the quality of the game leveled out the bought-to-stolen ratio.

You know what if I play a game, I tell to my friend that that game sucked, so dont buy it. Then my friend will most probably not buy it. So bad quality games which generate bad advertisements loose, and then piracy kills their developers. Good quality games without copy protections/activations still sells in millions as with Return To Castle Wolfenstein.

Also, extremely good games sell millions including copy protection and online activation, for instance: Half-Life 2.

To sum it up look what you said yourself



See that is the key. Make quality games and then even piracy cant even stop a game from making great profits. As regards the loss that the same game made because of piracy, well that section will always remain a loss because both online activation/copy protections can be cracked and the game company can not get them back by putting activation/copy potections. It only creates problems/annoyances for a legit owner. But if you make a great game, even without copy protections/ activations you can make huge sells and profits. Example - Return To Castle Wolfenstein.

Only because they budget in losses due to piracy.

Online activation and copy protection is here to stay, never again are we going to see games that have no piracy-countermeasures. The fact is that while you can whine all you want, it's because of you and people like you that caused the gaming and music industry to have to resort to these extreme measures.

Simply put: It's your fault. Had you and others like yourself, actually bought games instead of pirating them, you wouldn't now have to deal with copy protection and online activation.

As far as anti-piracy measures go, I love online activation. It proves to the company I bought their product completely legit, and it doesn't require me the hassle of inserting CD/DVD's or having malware installed on my system.

Technically this debate will go on between us forever, because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.. and to top it all off, you actually believe what your saying is true.

[Damien_Azreal]

Holy hell.... this thread is a lot of reading.

[avatar_58]

As far as anti-piracy measures go, I love online activation. It proves to the company I bought their product completely legit, and it doesn't require me the hassle of inserting CD/DVD's or having malware installed on my system.


However it limits the use of the software, and ties its life to the life of the company/service. Whereas games with a mere CD check will last as long as you personally wish.

[infinity]

As far as anti-piracy measures go, I love online activation. It proves to the company I bought their product completely legit, and it doesn't require me the hassle of inserting CD/DVD's or having malware installed on my system.

Online activation might be more convenient in the short run. However, there's no telling what will happen once the servers go down or when the publishers/developers die (or are acquired by another company, who may or may not maintain support). Whether you can actually reinstall your favorite game five to ten years down the road is completely out of your hands (Freespace 2? Planescape Torment? How about that old copy of Wizardry VII or Red Baron? Would we still be able to install those games if they'd been locked through online activation?).

Personally, I want some guarantee of longevity, so I'd gladly pick a CD check over the kind of uncertainty associated with online activation (and I'm fairly certain that not all companies will disable the DRM as a final gesture....). At the very least, I know I can still play the games years later, even if I have to dig out old hardware or operating systems. While I certainly understand why publishers and developers might favor activation, the trend does bother me a lot.

[Jiminator]

1) you can no longer buy a game and play it
2) invasion of privacy
3) you can no longer do rentals
4) you can no longer sell the game
5) you can no longer buy used copies of the game
6) you are still required to load the cd unless you buy it online
7) it does not prevent piracy in any way shape or form

face it. the consumer is getting the shaft. i think the ultimate thrust of this is to kill the used game market.

[Babe]

No, the fact remains that copy protection and online activation are the only way that we're going to continue to see PC games by PC developers.. because without them no one will develop for the PC because they'll never make any money.


You are entitled to your own opinion. I believe you are completely wrong. I believe that only way for game companies to make huge profits is to make quality games and sell them at reasonable prices ( ideally not more then 35 USD or somewhere ner that range).



So you're saying that gamers who are smart enough, should pirate all their favorite games instead of buying them.. because the cost is too unreasonable? Or are you saying that only stupid people pay for legit products legally, to support the developers who worked so hard to create them?


You have lost it now. And trying to put your words in my mouth. I do appreciate the hard effort gaming companies put in develping a game. All I have said is that games should be reasonably costly to attract people to buy them, and defeat the pirates. When have I said that that only stupid people pay for legit games ? Stop putting your words in my mouth. Cause if stupid people buy legit games, I am happy to anounce meself as stupid and I will prove that to you soon.


Have you ever stopped to think that one of the reasons games are now so expensive (besides having bigger budgets) is because of piracy?


I believe the un-neccasry cost that game companies pay to copy protecion development companies adds up to the game cost. And fact is whats the point, all can be cracked anyways by pirates and makes little difference to people who get pirated copies.



No, it had more to do with the fact what you said made no possible sense. Actually, it just made you look more like you had no idea what you were talking about.


I make perfect sense cause I live in a real world. I know why people buy pirated copies or download them is because pirated copies are cheaper. So I believe the only way to couter piracy is to reduce the cost to a reasonable extent. That will hurt the root cause of piracy. It is you my friend who live in an imaginary world where copy protection and online authentication makes every people buy any software product. Reality is, both copy protections and activations etc can be cracked. If you cant taste bitter truth, swallow it.


What I had listed were reasons why Microsoft have become the dominant company they are today, not what was on the mind of any random individual pirate.

The reasons that Microsoft have become the atronomical corperation are today are not due to Piracy. If they were, they wouldn't exist because they would have had no money to continue with their buisness.

Your rambling is making less, and less sense.

It doesn't help them in any way, shape or form. Microsoft just made enough money off of legitimate sales because their software is so popular.

Also, if Microsoft is so fond of people pirating their software, why are they leading the DRM (Digital Rights Management) revolution attempting to stop piracy?


I am not rambling and making perfect sense. I know Microsoft is richest company because it is so popular. All I am saying is piracy contributed to it to a great extent in becoming popular worldwide. People started becoming at ease with it because they could easily get a copy. Once they became habituated, they got hooked into it. And then they started paying for it.

And Microsoft is leading the DRM CRAP ( you may call it revolution) because like all other big companies, it is becoming more and more greedy. Honestly how many people you know have purchased DRM protected Videos ?


The developers of RTCW (Gray Matter) had to cancel their next project (Trinity) and were bought by Activision and merged into Treyarch. They no longer make any independant games.

No doubtly they lost millions of dollars to piracy, however the quality of the game leveled out the bought-to-stolen ratio.

Also, extremely good games sell millions including copy protection and online activation, for instance: Half-Life 2.


So you see it's quality that counts, and not copy protection. So why bother about copy protection and make the legit owners life a misery, whereas pirates laugh past all protections ?



Online activation and copy protection is here to stay, never again are we going to see games that have no piracy-countermeasures. The fact is that while you can whine all you want, it's because of you and people like you that caused the gaming and music industry to have to resort to these extreme measures.

Simply put: It's your fault. Had you and others like yourself, actually bought games instead of pirating them, you wouldn't now have to deal with copy protection and online activation.


Now here you are getting personal. I demand you apolozise to me for calling me a pirate. To prove that I actually do pay for my computer games, I am attaching the pictures of some game purchased receipts that I have purchased recently ( in last say 4 months ) . I have actually purchased a few more games, but can't find the receipts now, so dont want to say anything about those games now.

_http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i158/Babe_bunny/eb_games.jpg

_http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i158/Babe_bunny/GamesInvoice2.jpg

_http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i158/Babe_bunny/GamesInvoice1.jpg

So now come out and apolozise for calling me a pirate or keep your mouth shut.


As far as anti-piracy measures go, I love online activation. It proves to the company I bought their product completely legit, and it doesn't require me the hassle of inserting CD/DVD's or having malware installed on my system.


I hate online activation cause I dont think I have a liability to prove to a company that I have purchased their games. If I think I want to buy there game, I will buy it like I baught the above games. And I dont want to prove anything to them. They made a product for selling, I purchased it cause I like it, period.


Technically this debate will go on between us forever, because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.. and to top it all off, you actually believe what your saying is true.

I have 100 % idea about what I am talking about. You lost it cause as said earlier, you live in an imaginary world where copy protections and activations will make every customer to go and purchse a game/software.

And yes I have a right to believe in what I say. That is called freedom. And I dont want my freedom to be activated online.

[Hudson]

You are entitled to your own opinion. I believe you are completely wrong. I believe that only way for game companies to make huge profits is to make quality games and sell them at reasonable prices ( ideally not more then 35 USD or somewhere ner that range).

Game budgets exceed millions of dollars now, with that the price will be above $35 a piece. Also, because of piracy developers have to charge more to make up for the lost sales because of pirates. It's a known fact they add the perceived losses into their budget.

You have lost it now. And trying to put your words in my mouth. I do appreciate the hard effort gaming companies put in develping a game. All I have said is that games should be reasonably costly to attract people to buy them, and defeat the pirates. When have I said that that only stupid people pay for legit games ? Stop putting your words in my mouth. Cause if stupid people buy legit games, I am happy to anounce meself as stupid and I will prove that to you soon.

I misunderstood your statement "People who are smart enough to know cracks are available, are usually smart enough to find them, either themselves, or through a smart friend." as that only smart people crack and steal games. My mistake.

I believe the un-neccasry cost that game companies pay to copy protecion development companies adds up to the game cost. And fact is whats the point, all can be cracked anyways by pirates and makes little difference to people who get pirated copies.

Of course it adds to the overall cost of the game, however if game companies made no attempt to protect their software, piracy would explode and the lost sales would drive the developer under. It's that simple. Like you said, games are so easy to crack now and piracy is the worst it has ever been.. just imagine if there were no copy protection?

I make perfect sense cause I live in a real world. I know why people buy pirated copies or download them is because pirated copies are cheaper. So I believe the only way to couter piracy is to reduce the cost to a reasonable extent. That will hurt the root cause of piracy. It is you my friend who live in an imaginary world where copy protection and online authentication makes every people buy any software product. Reality is, both copy protections and activations etc can be cracked. If you cant taste bitter truth, swallow it.

Your definition of "real world" seems to translate to "I want everything dirt cheap or free, and want no inconvenience to myself or anybody". That's not the real world. Also, I never once said copy protections could not be cracked, I mainly said without it we wouldn't have a PC game industry, which is very true.

I am not rambling and making perfect sense. I know Microsoft is richest company because it is so popular. All I am saying is piracy contributed to it to a great extent in becoming popular worldwide. People started becoming at ease with it because they could easily get a copy. Once they became habituated, they got hooked into it. And then they started paying for it.

Sure it contributed to it in a small way (like I previously said), however to believe that they achieved their current position because of piracy is ridiculous. Believe it or not, Microsoft likes to make money.

And Microsoft is leading the DRM CRAP ( you may call it revolution) because like all other big companies, it is becoming more and more greedy. Honestly how many people you know have purchased DRM protected Videos ?

Considering forms of DRM is currently being used by Microsoft, Sony, Apple and many manufacturers of DVD players, and of course next-gen developers of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.. I imagine a lot of people have purchased protected videos and software. Not to mention how many will in the next year alone.

So you see it's quality that counts, and not copy protection. So why bother about copy protection and make the legit owners life a misery, whereas pirates laugh past all protections ?

Like I said before, piracy has caused developers to take such drastic measures for copy protection. The end result is having legit customers deal with the inconvenience. Developers have no choice anymore.

Now here you are getting personal. I demand you apolozise to me for calling me a pirate. To prove that I actually do pay for my computer games, I am attaching the pictures of some game purchased receipts that I have purchased recently ( in last say 4 months ) . I have actually purchased a few more games, but can't find the receipts now, so dont want to say anything about those games now.

[links]

So now come out and apolozise for calling me a pirate or keep your mouth shut.

I find it hard to believe that anyone who supports and is in favor of piracy like yourself, never illegally downloads content.

However, to make things fair i'll modify my statement to say that people with a mindset like yours, who support piracy and don't believe it's wrong or has an impact on the industry are the problem and are to blame. In relation it would be as if you supported shoplifting, i'm not saying you do, however piracy is basically shoplifting in digital form.

I hate online activation cause I dont think I have a liability to prove to a company that I have purchased their games. If I think I want to buy there game, I will buy it like I baught the above games. And I dont want to prove anything to them. They made a product for selling, I purchased it cause I like it, period.

Well that's all well and good. You should be proud. However considering how many people pirate software today, developers are forced into drastic measures that they never should have been put into the position of having to take.

I guarantee you that developers are not happy they have to make controversial decisions about how to protect their software. It's just become a sad reality that it's what's required to survive in this industry.

I have 100 % idea about what I am talking about. You lost it cause as said earlier, you live in an imaginary world where copy protections and activations will make every customer to go and purchse a game/software.

And yes I have a right to believe in what I say. That is called freedom. And I dont want my freedom to be activated online.

My "imaginary world" is blunt reality my friend. If your dream is to being gaming back to ten years ago, where developers were'nt forced to use (extreme) copy-protection on their products, you will be severely dissapointed.

Of course you have the right to believe in what you say, people do it all the time. It doesn't make it any more or less a reality, but if this is what makes you warm and fuzzy inside, so be it.

Online activation basically boils down to an "Opt-In/Opt-Out" decision by the customer. If you don't want to deal with online activation, then don't.. it's your choice. Obviously Valve and other companies are still making money off of sales anyway, so enough people are willing to opt-in and make the purchase. You'll just have to miss out on their products. I guess that's the only sure-fire answer.

Not everyone can get what they want, this is the reality of life. Online activation seems to be working very well at the moment and will continue to in the foreseeable future, so I doubt it'll be going away any time soon.

[avatar_58]

Online activation basically boils down to an "Opt-In/Opt-Out" decision by the customer. If you don't want to deal with online activation, then don't.. it's your choice. Obviously Valve and other companies are still making money off of sales anyway, so enough people are willing to opt-in and make the purchase. You'll just have to miss out on their products. I guess that's the only sure-fire answer.

Not everyone can get what they want, this is the reality of life. Online activation seems to be working very well at the moment and will continue to in the foreseeable future, so I doubt it'll be going away any time soon.

So what - you honestly believe online authentication isn't the future? You don't think every company is eventually going to be pulled in as it gets popular? Who's being naive now?

If people don't speak out against this type of DRM how are companies going to know it has problems? Online distribution *is* the way everything is going whether or not people want to follow. However I do not believe online authentication in its current form is the answer. Not until they add code or failsafes for when the service/company is no longer there to take my authentication request. It is as simple as that.

Take a look at your purchase list in steam. Every one of those games requires authentication and every one of them will fall if steam does, save for the truly smart ones like Darwinia and Shadowgrounds, because they have boxed versions to fall back on. I play old games all the time, and I cannot simply be silent about this blatent disregard for the customer. Yes - piracy is a problem, but should paying customers suffer? What about the folks who buy their games? Are they as guilty as the pirates? In your opinion they must be, because they need the handcuffs known as authentication attached.

You play System Shock do you not? You like Duke Nukem right? What if those games had authentication and the server was cut. Would you simply say "Oh well, it stopped piracy!" and move on, or would you be a little miffed as a customer who just had their product taken away?

[Hudson]

So what - you honestly believe online authentication isn't the future? You don't think every company is eventually going to be pulled in as it gets popular? Who's being naive now?

I believe that it is the future.. I thought I said that before.

If people don't speak out against this type of DRM how are companies going to know it has problems?

Online activation is the only type of DRM I support.

Online distribution *is* the way everything is going whether or not people want to follow. However I do not believe online authentication in its current form is the answer. Not until they add code or failsafes for when the service/company is no longer there to take my authentication request. It is as simple as that.

Valve/Gabe has said:

"If you right click on a game in Steam, you'll see that you can back up the files yourself. Unless there was some situation I don't understand, we would presumably disable authentication before any event that would preclude the authentication servers from being available.

We've tested disabling authentication and it works."

So apparently it's already there. You're worrying too much.

Take a look at your purchase list in steam. Every one of those games requires authentication and every one of them will fall if steam does, save for the truly smart ones like Darwinia and Shadowgrounds, because they have boxed versions to fall back on. I play old games all the time, and I cannot simply be silent about this blatent disregard for the customer. Yes - piracy is a problem, but should paying customers suffer? What about the folks who buy their games? Are they as guilty as the pirates? In your opinion they must be, because they need the handcuffs known as authentication attached.

Anyone who bought a game via Steam can make a hard backup copy, and then later for some reason Valve goes under they'll release the "disabling authentication" patch (as I said in my post above).

You play System Shock do you not? You like Duke Nukem right? What if those games had authentication and the server was cut. Would you simply say "Oh well, it stopped piracy!" and move on, or would you be a little miffed as a customer who just had their product taken away?

But those games don't, and Valve has a plan for the future as far as authentication disabling goes for their products as well as the ones hosted by Steam.

I know Valve is a part of the evil corperate buisness world where promises mean nothing and they would eat your children if they had a chance.. but I have no reason not to believe them. I think they have Steam under control.

[Babe]

I am tired of arguing with you Hudson. You are under the notion that without copy protections/activations , all gaming companies will go down because of piracy. As I have said before if a game company doesnt make quality games that actually attracts peple to buy that game, then that company goes down and I dont mind that. Dont need a company that cant produce quality games. And if they then site piracy as the reason, then that's lame.

And again you say to me "I find it hard to believe that anyone who supports and is in favor of piracy like yourself" . I strongly object to your statement as I am not supporting piracy. All I am saying is that I dont support copy protections and activations. All I am saying that the game developing company needs to find a way to reduce their cost of products and at the same time develop superior products ( which is not impossible to achieve with proper management, a bit more effort etc.) and that will actually hurt the root cause of piracy and take it down.

If you still come back and keep on saying that activation is the only way the companies will survive, and that I support piracy, I can conclude that you are a George Bush supporter, so no point in arguing with you :D !

[ZuljinRaynor]

Copy Protection for the win! It's strange... I know... but I love CD-Keys. I don't know why. I just love it. :D

[phreak]

Online authentication's only virtue is preventing pre-release copies of the game, which is negligible as that depends on leaks along the production line, and most people do not mind waiting for release date to obtain an illegal copy. Otherwise, online authentication and any copy protection(except StarForce, but that's evil!) has no effect on piracy, as it does not decrease availability of pirated copies on release date. Thus, piracy's growth is dependent on the growth of speed of internet connections, not developer's attempts to deal(or ignore) the problem.

For these reasons I say, away with online authentication and copy protection(hell, some people use pirated copy's cracks to disable those while having bought legit copies).

To summarize, online authentication and copy protection has no effect on a company's profits. Therefore, the only 2 factors left are quality and marketing.

[avatar_58]

Hudson - why should I trust Valve? I'm buying the games because I don't want to miss them, and because I enjoy them. However until the very day I'm proven wrong I will doubt them.

Remember - even if Valve does patch HL2, that doesn't mean all the rest of the companies will. What about Ritual and Sin? What about Majesco? What about Telltale? Do you trust everyone? What if EAgames started to use authentication, would you trust them?

Where do we draw the line? If push came to shove and all games used authentication, how are we supposed to get games from shady publishers? What if an innovative GOTY title was released by your favourite developer under the publishing name of someone you cannot trust. Would you opt for the benefit of the doubt?

Someone, somewhere down the line is going to slip and prove authentication can be a coffin for game longevity. I just hope someone can crack or come up with a solution once that occurs.....

[Hudson]

I am tired of arguing with you Hudson. You are under the notion that without copy protections/activations , all gaming companies will go down because of piracy.

Which is a very reasonable and valid assumption.

As I have said before if a game company doesnt make quality games that actually attracts peple to buy that game, then that company goes down and I dont mind that. Dont need a company that cant produce quality games. And if they then site piracy as the reason, then that's lame.

I also agree it's lame that piracy can be the reason for the downfall of a developer. It's impossible to see nothing but AAA titles, there will always be crappy games.. however sometimes crappy and/or dissapointing games come from great developers.

And again you say to me "I find it hard to believe that anyone who supports and is in favor of piracy like yourself" . I strongly object to your statement as I am not supporting piracy. All I am saying is that I dont support copy protections and activations. All I am saying that the game developing company needs to find a way to reduce their cost of products and at the same time develop superior products ( which is not impossible to achieve with proper management, a bit more effort etc.) and that will actually hurt the root cause of piracy and take it down.

The game industry is growing faster than it ever has before, this causes more competition and bigger budgets. The bigger the budget the less chance you're going to see a game go for $35 and still make a profit. It's just the way it goes.. one day we'll all tell our grandkids that "back in our day games only cost $50!" and they'll look in awe and disbelief at the ridiculously low price.

The root cause of piracy is people wanting stuff without having to pay for it.. I don't think even the greatest game in the world will stop that.

If you still come back and keep on saying that activation is the only way the companies will survive, and that I support piracy, I can conclude that you are a George Bush supporter, so no point in arguing with you :D !

Activation and copy protection are the only ways for companies to survive, online activation is just my preference of the two.

Also, i'm not going to start a political debate here, but just so you know i'm not fond of George W. Bush in any way (check old political threads for reference).

Online authentication's only virtue is preventing pre-release copies of the game, which is negligible as that depends on leaks along the production line, and most people do not mind waiting for release date to obtain an illegal copy. Otherwise, online authentication and any copy protection(except StarForce, but that's evil!) has no effect on piracy, as it does not decrease availability of pirated copies on release date. Thus, piracy's growth is dependent on the growth of speed of internet connections, not developer's attempts to deal(or ignore) the problem.

For these reasons I say, away with online authentication and copy protection(hell, some people use pirated copy's cracks to disable those while having bought legit copies).

To summarize, online authentication and copy protection has no effect on a company's profits. Therefore, the only 2 factors left are quality and marketing.

The anti-piracy measures have effect on how much money the developers make per sale, which is very important to the survival of the company. The anti-piracy measures now aren't the tip of the iceburg, online authentication will get stronger and harder (but from what we've seen not impossibe) to crack and copy protection (e.g. Starforce) will follow suit. At least until Microsoft and hardware/software manufacturers roll out with products already DRM embedded (This I'd rather not see, which is why I prefer online auth).

Hudson - why should I trust Valve? I'm buying the games because I don't want to miss them, and because I enjoy them. However until the very day I'm proven wrong I will doubt them.

It's the risk i'm willing to take.

Remember - even if Valve does patch HL2, that doesn't mean all the rest of the companies will. What about Ritual and Sin? What about Majesco? What about Telltale? Do you trust everyone? What if EAgames started to use authentication, would you trust them?

Well, Majesco and Telltale.. I don't know. They seem to want to keep a good name with their customers and supporters.

EA on the otherhand, I wouldn't bet on it. They've proven several times they're bastards, and money is always the main concern.

Honestly I don't trust everyone, but it's a required risk in my opinion.

Where do we draw the line? If push came to shove and all games used authentication, how are we supposed to get games from shady publishers? What if an innovative GOTY title was released by your favourite developer under the publishing name of someone you cannot trust. Would you opt for the benefit of the doubt?

If you're asking me if I would buy a game that I had great interest in, or a game I had already previewed and loved.. then yes, I would still purchase that game.

Someone, somewhere down the line is going to slip and prove authentication can be a coffin for game longevity. I just hope someone can crack or come up with a solution once that occurs.....

Currently online activation is working, and if/when the time comes where it slips and is a "coffin for game longevity" i'm sure if anything those savvy crackers will find a way around (I mean.. apparently it's so easy to do now).

Online authentication is still in it's early stages as far as software goes, a lot of changes will definetely be made in the future. We all just have to wait and see.

Side Note: The originator of this thread sure has a lot of material now on the article he wanted to do ;) :D

[avatar_58]

Online authentication is still in it's early stages as far as software goes, a lot of changes will definetely be made in the future. We all just have to wait and see.


I'm hoping that something is set in place to insure a game is unlockable and playable after the service dies. How would you ever program that though? Surely if a failsafe code existed it could just be reverse engineered and used by crackers?

[phreak]

The anti-piracy measures have effect on how much money the developers make per sale, which is very important to the survival of the company. The anti-piracy measures now aren't the tip of the iceburg, online authentication will get stronger and harder (but from what we've seen not impossibe) to crack and copy protection (e.g. Starforce) will follow suit. At least until Microsoft and hardware/software manufacturers roll out with products already DRM embedded (This I'd rather not see, which is why I prefer online auth).

Uh, yeah, right. Let's spend money licensing anti-piracy measures, I wonder by how much this would increase our profit per sale... :doh:

Seriously, did you read and take into consideration what I said? You keep claiming "online authentication is the only way for the industry to survive". I fail to see any concrete proof that online authentication, or advanced copy protection decreases piracy in any way. Note that there are people out there whose sole purpose is to crack and reverse enginner things, and video games are some of the best challenges. But they'll never be a more than a daylong challenge.

Online activation prevents casual pirating (note: casual), while hackers will still break the code it stops novice users from making a copy for a friend.

Uh, not really, casual pirating is really low actually, as why would you bother making a copy for a friend when they can download it from the internet? Also, casual copying has been prevented since around... 1998? So online authentication is compeltely irrelevant to the matter, it does in no way change the situation for pirates.

[Jiminator]

Well, nice to see that my points have been ignored.
to restate:

1) you can no longer buy a game and play it
2) invasion of privacy
3) you can no longer do rentals
4) you can no longer sell the game
5) you can no longer buy used copies of the game
6) you are still required to load the cd unless you buy it online
7) it does not prevent piracy in any way shape or form

how do you justify #3 to #5?

[Hudson]

I'm hoping that something is set in place to insure a game is unlockable and playable after the service dies. How would you ever program that though? Surely if a failsafe code existed it could just be reverse engineered and used by crackers?

I'm sure they're working on something, however this is completely out of the gamers hands. I don't know enough about programming to imagine how to do it, but I highly doubt there is no possible way to create something like you mentioned.

Uh, yeah, right. Let's spend money licensing anti-piracy measures, I wonder by how much this would increase our profit per sale... :doh:

It increases profit because it encourages more people to buy the game instead of stealing it.

Seriously, did you read and take into consideration what I said? You keep claiming "online authentication is the only way for the industry to survive". I fail to see any concrete proof that online authentication, or advanced copy protection decreases piracy in any way. Note that there are people out there whose sole purpose is to crack and reverse enginner things, and video games are some of the best challenges. But they'll never be a more than a daylong challenge.

Actually I keep claiming that copy protection in general is the only way for the industry to survive, online authentication is just my preference.

Of course copy protection decreases piracy, if it didn't, it wouldn't exist. Also, you're correct that there are people whose hobby is cracking games, it just makes for the creators of the protection software work harder. The same exact thing has been going on with hackers and security software designers for over a decade.

Uh, not really, casual pirating is really low actually, as why would you bother making a copy for a friend when they can download it from the internet? Also, casual copying has been prevented since around... 1998? So online authentication is compeltely irrelevant to the matter, it does in no way change the situation for pirates.

Since casual pirating is so low, why would you want to make it easier?

Well, nice to see that my points have been ignored.
to restate:

1) you can no longer buy a game and play it
2) invasion of privacy
3) you can no longer do rentals
4) you can no longer sell the game
5) you can no longer buy used copies of the game
6) you are still required to load the cd unless you buy it online
7) it does not prevent piracy in any way shape or form

how do you justify #3 to #5?

(I'm just going to comment on Steam, I don't know enough about the other software)

1) I'm guessing you mean having to authenticate the files before you can play, which I guess can be a pain. If you don't like it, avoid the software title.
2) AFAIK Steam (not familiar with other software) doesn't retrieve or release any personal information from the user.
3) PC Game rentals aways were non-existant anyway
4) Not at EB anyway, however Valve will give you a new CD key if you purchased it used from a 3rd party if you send them proof (i.e. the Serial on the CD Sleeve)
5) Read above.
6) Once having bought (retail) and installed HL2, SiN Episodes, etc. I have never again had to put the CD in my drive, and if I take my PC somewhere with no internet connection I make sure to run steam in offline mode.
7) While it doesn't prevent it completely, it certainly makes it harder.

For those who dislike online authentication so much, just avoid the products that support it. No one is forcing you to deal with it :)

[phreak]

Of course copy protection decreases piracy, if it didn't, it wouldn't exist.

That I call circular logic.

Also, how does copy protection enourage people to buy the game? It has no effect whatsoever, as the availability of illegal copies is not decreased by copy protection. Not even delayed.

Let me restate again my claim, which you have been avoiding to provide evidence against.

Copy protection does not decrease piracy, or encourage people to buy legal copies because it does not decrease the availability of pirated copies. Almost all games, apart from some using the dreadful StarForce(<- malware) have been available on the internet since their release date. Thus, they are as easily acquirable as legal copies.

Therefore, if one has set one's mind to use a pirated game, one is easily able to do so. If one has decided to obtain a legal copy, they would too.

[Hudson]

Let me restate again my claim, which you have been avoiding to provide evidence against.

Copy protection does not decrease piracy, or encourage people to buy legal copies because it does not decrease the availability of pirated copies. Almost all games, apart from some using the dreadful StarForce(<- malware) have been available on the internet since their release date. Thus, they are as easily acquirable as legal copies.

Therefore, if one has set one's mind to use a pirated game, one is easily able to do so. If one has decided to obtain a legal copy, they would too.

Copy protection does decrease piracy, and encourages people to buy legal copies. Proof? The Battlefield series, Counter-Strike Source, DoD: Source, any insanely popular MMORPG, Flight Simulators, Strategy games.. and that's just off the top of my head.

Also, without a legit key and/or an internet connection it's almost impossible to get important upgrades, patches, and compatability upgrades for thousands of games.

[phreak]

Copy protection does decrease piracy, and encourages people to buy legal copies. Proof? The Battlefield series, Counter-Strike Source, DoD: Source, any insanely popular MMORPG, Flight Simulators, Strategy games.. and that's just off the top of my head.

You call that a proof? I now give you the title noob at reasoning. Proof would be a CHART that outlines and compares game's sales, copy protection, game's quality, game's prerelease hype, game's aproximate amount of downloads of of torrent trackers that hold, statistics, etc. Listing only game titles is just crap you pull out of you ass as far as I'm concerned, as I have an argument based on logic and you have uninformed bullshit. And no, I am not going to do YOUR research for you.

Sorry for getting personal, but I do get pissed off at people that refuse to be productive in a conversation, but still insist on being strongly opinionated without acknowledging it. You fail at being credible in this argument.

[Hudson]

You call that a proof? I now give you the title noob at reasoning. Proof would be a CHART that outlines and compares game's sales, copy protection, game's quality, game's prerelease hype, game's aproximate amount of downloads of of torrent trackers that hold, statistics, etc. Listing only game titles is just crap you pull out of you ass as far as I'm concerned, as I have an argument based on logic and you have uninformed bullshit. And no, I am not going to do YOUR research for you.

Thanks for the title "noob at reasoning". Coming from someone with such an advanced maturity level just makes it all worth while.

Honestly, at first when I read you were actually waiting for me (or anyone for that matter) to produce you charts and visual aids I thought it was a joke. It actually makes it more humorous you were serious.

The titles and "crap [I] pulled out of [my] ass" that I listed were legitimate examples of how copy protection helps the game industry.

Sorry for getting personal, but I do get pissed off at people that refuse to be productive in a conversation, but still insist on being strongly opinionated without acknowledging it. You fail at being credible in this argument.

Refuse to be productive? You mean like randomly cursing at me and throwing a temper tantrum because I proved you wrong? Hey, I get mad at those people too.

I admit that i'm very opinionated, however I back up my opinions with common sense and facts. I fail to see how that isn't credible.. maybe I should start using insulting game jargon in serious debates too.

[phreak]

Hudson, I propose we start with the basics as you obviously have no grasp whatsoever on any kind of debate skills(which, take note, is probably modern education's fault as it is mostly crap all throughout high school, but fortunately gets better in college)

First of all, what is a proof.

"Definitions of proof on the Web:
any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of something; "if you have any proof for what you say, now is the time to produce it"
a formal series of statements showing that if one thing is true something else necessarily follows from it
validation: the act of validating; finding or testing the truth of something" (http://www.google.com/search?&q=define:+proof)

Now let us consider your list of game titles, and whether or not it qualifies as proof. Does it have factual evidence? No, titles of game carry no such factual information, but your stating of them implies that these games specifically have a decreased rate of piracy. That, however, is cannot be validated by the list alone. You agree now, it doesn't fit the definition of proof?

Since you might acuse me that I have no proof for my claim either, I will disect my argument, so that the logic transitions and assumptions are clear to you, thus making it easier for you to disprove it.

----------------------------------------
Statement 1: Almost all games have pirated copies floating on the internet since their release day*.
Logical support: The following scenario takes place. Game becomes available to the public. Pirates buy game. Pirates unlock game's content, and crack the copy protection and online authentication. Pirates distribute on the internet. Expected timeframe: less than 12 hours. Factual support: DooM3 (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=17590), Half Life 2 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4019095.stm)

Statement 1 implies statement 2: The availability of pirated copies of games is at least as much as the availability of legal copies of games due to modern high speed internect connections.

Statement 2 implies statement 3: Any one person that has made up one's mind to acquire an illegal copy of a game can do so. Therefore, they will, irrelevant of copy protection or online authentication.
Corollary 1: Any one person that has made up one's mind to pay for the game also can do so. Therefore, they will too, irrelevant of copy protection or online authentication.

Corollary 2: Any one person in doubt of the game's quality and willing to play the game without paying before deciding will also do so. Their decision on whether or not they will buy the game is based on the game's quality, not the game's copy protection.

Statements and Corollaries imply Statement 3: Anyone willing to acquire an illegal copy of the game after its release will do so, irrelevant of copy protection.

Statement 3 implies Statement 4:Piracy is not decreased by copy protection.

*Supplement 1: Pirated copies also appear before the game's release. There are people that play the game before release. These people are equivalent to the people of Corollary 2, that is, their buying of the game depends on whether or not the game is good.

----------------------------------------

That is my argument. That argument is a proof of my claim, as it provides factual evidence and has a formal series of statements showing that if one thing is true something else necessarily follows from it.

Now, let me investigate your other arguments that you've used in response to various wordings of my argument:


The anti-piracy measures have effect on how much money the developers make per sale, which is very important to the survival of the company. The anti-piracy measures now aren't the tip of the iceburg, online authentication will get stronger and harder (but from what we've seen not impossibe) to crack and copy protection (e.g. Starforce) will follow suit. At least until Microsoft and hardware/software manufacturers roll out with products already DRM embedded (This I'd rather not see, which is why I prefer online auth).

First sentence=unsupported claim
Second sentence=unsupported claim with no logical ties to the previous one. Also says nothing contradicting my claim. It is in fact, irrelevant.
Third sentence=supplement of second sentence, still irrelevent to my claim.

Overall score: Who the hell let you pass literature class?

Next argument.


(Anti-piracy measures) increase profit because it encourages more people to buy the game instead of stealing it.

Of course copy protection decreases piracy, if it didn't, it wouldn't exist. Also, you're correct that there are people whose hobby is cracking games, it just makes for the creators of the protection software work harder. The same exact thing has been going on with hackers and security software designers for over a decade.

First sentence=unsupported claim.
Second sentence=circular logic
Third sentence=depends on validity of your as of yet, unproven thesis that copy protection decreases piracy.
Fourth sentence=support for unproven third sentence.

Overall score: You shoud sue your literature teachers, they've done a very bad job. The math/logic/philosophy teachers too.

Next argument=List of games argument, refuted in the beginning of this post.

So, yes, I am an immature prick because I refuse to accept unsupported claims being labeled as actual logical arguments or even proofs. Note that when I say unsupported claims, I mean talking out of your ass(as opposed to your brain, which also implies all your saying is bullshit). I'm also immature because I do not hide my disdain of ignorance, lack of logical thought, and misrepresentation of bullshit. I do not know of any other way to express my rage at people that refuse to employ logical thinking other than profanity and name-calling, because I do not feel they(read you) can understand anything else. Speaking of name-calling, my opion of you currently is that of a stupid jackass that needs a serious ego-check through an objective measuring of cognitive ability. In other words, I think you are a moron.

PS. Note that the last paragraph is a flamebait, and I will be really entertained if you fall into it. Especially given this PS. This PS is also flamebait, as is any other flamebait-referential statement I might make from this point onward.

Your turn, oh, enlightened in the noble fields of logic and the economy of software-piracy Hudson.

[avatar_58]

You sir are taking this way too damn personally. I'm against authentication too but insulting others for no reason isn't warranted.

[Babe]

Dunno why we need copy protection for softwares. Do we need copy protection for shirts, so only one brother can wear it and not other, cause if two brothers keep on wearing same set of T-Shirts, textile industry is loosing business. Some how some evil person got the idea that software needs to be protected, and greedy software companies instead agreed thinking that it will increase their sales.

Boy we are looking into a future in which every product will need activation, and then some will have some time limitations too. Some fine day you wake up form bed and decide to go to toilet due to natural emergency, you will be greeted with a message " I am sorry but the activation for the toilet door has expired. Please contact customer support at 1800-999-999-999-999 to reactivate your toilet door lock. Please keep your credit card details, birth certificate details, proof of your residential certificate, and the count of the hairs you have on your head in your last hair counting day ready for verification purposes." Unable to bear you decide to break into to your toilet through the glass window and once you are out, you will see cops waiting for you with a notice " Sir, you have broken the glass window act rule 9999.999.abcdefg.iii which states that "you can not under any circumstance break the glass window willfully without prior permission from the manufacturer. Such intention of breaking the glass must be communicated to the manufacturer well in advance giving the manufacturer fair time to respond, and to be fair to both parties, the law states the "fair" time means a minimum period of one month." Here is the minimum fine of USD two billion for breaking the glass. Thnk you "

I hope those who support activations and such live in a such corporate controlled world some day and become corporate "asses" ;) ! Will suit them.

[pcgamer23708]

Babe, don't give too much importance to "Hudson"
I saw his nick on Rituals forums although I'm not sure its the same person but it makes all the sense he being there.

I guess Hudson wants 3D Realms to do like Ritual did... to become another Valve b*tch, another Valve errand boy...
His a STEAM LOVER... I smell it from a long distance...

3D Realms will never do what Ritual did.
Ritual are weak and needed to ask Valve to be their daddy to survive cause they don't have what it takes to be an independent developer.

3D Realms are independent and even if small will always control their own destiny and will never be anyone b*tch!

Ritual are Valves b*tch!
(Please George and Joe don't ban me for telling what is obvious to all)

I personally bought 5 units of Prey
You showed us you are a heavy PC Gamer buyer.
We both together buy more games in a week than he and all his other STEAM LOVERs buy in a year, so at the end who should 3D Realms listen to? him? or us?
I guess its pretty obvious

Now although I already despise him that doesn't mean what he writes is all wrong...
He is right about casual copying, the lending and sharing between friends being damaging for sales and being the 1st reason why devs and publishers want to use copy-protection but we have TOTALLY OPPOSITE views on the solution.
He wants Valve way, the way of BRUTE FORCE, and dealing with customers with disrespect like slaves.
I want instead the problem to be resolved by PC Gamers themselves, by the majority of PC Gamers willingly doing more to protect sales and developers profits.
He wants the Dictatorship way, Valves way and his b*tch Ritual, I want freedom and democracy and making PC Gamers see its in their own interest diminishing the casual copying and piracy...

I'm not telling the target would be ending piracy or casual copying all together cause that is utopia and impossible, what I defend is fans like You and me and many in this forum actively defending developers sales and profits.
We PC Gamers are the best "copy-protection" their is!
We are the perfect "copy-protection" for developers, so we only need to show them the GOOD we can do.

Everytime I deal with PC Games I actively defend developers profits by:
. Always buying NEW Factory sealed
. Not lend or share my own units with friends
. Not resell my own units in the 2nd hand market
. Not use the internet for full version but only patches and mods.
If You and I and many others do this I believe it can make a very big difference, why? cause I do believe we will be much more COMMERCIALLY important than those that do not respect developers (pirates) plus the STEAM LOVERs like Hudson.

The question developers must ask is:
What is more important, fighting piracy and casual copying with AGRESSIVE copy-protection systems or respect and reward the supporting and paying customer like You and Me?
I believe we will be more important and that is why I believe AGRESSIVE copy-protection systems will not succeed.
But for that to happen we must work hard! that is essential!
We the supporting/paying customer must actively protect the devs sales and profits otherwise we will not be strong enough to be the most important focus for developers.

Now something for Hudson...
Hey Hudson listen... this is for you, I have a message to Ritual...
Tell Ritual I bought ZERO! yes ZERO units of Sin Episodes!
And you can also say I bought 5 units of Prey. FIVE!

If you want to add some color show them my photos:
http://pcgames2006.tripod.com/imgmisc/prey5units.jpg
http://pcgames2006.tripod.com/imgmisc/nobuy.jpg

PS: I haven't yet ended buying Prey Retail... more will come in the future, mainly when 3D Realms releases the patch to remove the need for disk inserted when playing (I bet STEAM LOVER Hudson HATES to see PC Games ending up like this cause it show how much imprisonment and restrictive STEAM is)

[ADM]

Enough.. no need for personal attacks like that.

:lock: