Game Programming Classes

[cathode26]

I am a computer science student at the University of North Texas. I have taken two game programming classes with Dr. Ian Parberry. A 2d and 3d game programming class. www.larc.unt.edu Incase you want a free academic 3d game engine, the Sage Engine.

I feel like I don't know these topics that well.

Ray Tracing
Quaternions
Interpolation
Animation
Rendering

Would you suggest staying an extra year (graduating in a year) and trying to learn as much as I can or graduating (now) and learning on the job?

Do you know if 3d realms will hire programmers that will have to be trained in those topics?

-Vincent

[Jiminator]

frankly bud i doubt the courses are going to take you anywhere. geme companies are probably looking for people with skills and talents. Knowing the basics, although useful, is not very useful. using the skills to make your own game to showcase your talents, now that would be a good thing.

[Odin]

Knowing the basics, although useful, is not very useful.

.what

[Sang]

^I was just thinking that :o

[Tang Lung]

Haha!

Contradiction thread revival?

[Kristian Joensen]

Well the typical advice I see from industry folks is that having a degree shows that you are upto finishing long term projects. That ofcourse is only the case if you actually DO finish the degree.

I know next to nothing about the topics you mention but I am sure that there are alot of resources out there on the net that you can use in ADDITION to learning those things at school.

There are several websites dedicated to 3D Graphics programming and game programming.

Like http://www.devmaster.net/ or http://www.gamedev.net.

Devmaster for instance has got a series on raytracing here (http://www.devmaster.net/articles/raytracing_series/part1.php).

[ewolf]

Its not a contradiction. He said that "Knowing the basics, although useful, is NOT VERY useful."

[cathode26]

The reason I am confused about what I should do is because my father has been telling me that it is alright to enter any industry as long as you have a degree related to it. I disagree with him and I am trying to find someone in the gaming industry who can give me advice on this. I am thinking that maybe the gaming industry is less willing to train people because of budgets and deadlines.

-Vincent

[cathode26]

Kristian Joensen :

I checked out the raytracing page. Thanks, devmaster looks like a good place to start.

-Vincent

Wow, I just looked through the tutorials and it has everything I need.

[Jiminator]

I am thinking that maybe the gaming industry is less willing to train people because of budgets and deadlines.
For this industry (and many others) look for a job as an intern. The pay may suck ( :) ) the work may be very goferish but the experience will be invaluable.

I guess I am leery of all the game programming courses, in some ways it just seems like they are wanting to seperate suckers from their money. I am reminded of someone on another forum who wanted to grow up and play games professionally. My response was that I knew of exactly one person who is able to make a successful career out of that. Sure you can collect a few thousand bucks a few times a year, but that is not steady income.

With 'game programming' that is going to be a difficult path. Note though that many of those same skills can be useful in other (more plentiful) industries. That may be a better approach to start off with.

[Nessus]

School is all well and good but have you produced anything? Are you part of a mod team? Do you model, program or make maps? Do you have a portfolio with finnished game assets you can show a potential employer? These are the things that really matter.

It's one thing to know, but can you do.

[Odin]

School is all well and good but have you produced anything? Are you part of a mod team? Do you model, program or make maps? Do you have a portfolio with finnished game assets you can show a potential employer? These are the things that really matter.

It's one thing to know, but can you do.

Indeed, when it comes to the game industry your portfolio is infinitely more important than your training.

[cathode26]

I have 1 presentable demo. Here is a screen shot.
The mini map didnt render right on my professors computer because his graphics card was a little old and he is the one who did the screen shots and the wmv
http://www.larc.unt.edu/demos/spring06/furymallard.jpg

It was written in C++ and directX 9 using the Sage Engine.
Sage = Simple Academic Game Engine
And if you want to watch a wmv of it (the file is a little large the server is a little slow)
http://www.larc.unt.edu/demos/spring06/furymallard.wmv

Remember not to be too mean if you watch it, it is our first 3d game. (a group of people worked on it, not just me)
-Vincent

[Mr.Sociopath]

hey that's cool..how much time took this game to make?

I'm following similar course tough it's more video game oriented(more than 2 course related)..but until now I'm at the beginning of the basics.. so I can't make any games more than 2d games with multimedia programs(which is unrelated to the course)..
I'm currently learning c++ and we'll probably use the torque game engine when we'll start making games(only 100$ per license)..
also, Ogre 3d is a good free graphic engine that could maybe be usefull to you..

[Xerxes]

The reason I am confused about what I should do is because my father has been telling me that it is alright to enter any industry as long as you have a degree related to it. I disagree with him and I am trying to find someone in the gaming industry who can give me advice on this. I am thinking that maybe the gaming industry is less willing to train people because of budgets and deadlines.

No harm in making a game to show to whoever's hiring you...

[cathode26]

hey that's cool..how much time took this game to make?

I'm following similar course tough it's more video game oriented(more than 2 course related)..but until now I'm at the beginning of the basics.. so I can't make any games more than 2d games with multimedia programs(which is unrelated to the course)..
I'm currently learning c++ and we'll probably use the torque game engine when we'll start making games(only 100$ per license)..
also, Ogre 3d is a good free graphic engine that could maybe be usefull to you..

3 programmers and 2 artists worked on that game for 16 weeks. Factor in that everyone had other classes to take. I would imagine that if everyone stopped doing all of their other classes that it could have taken 5-6 weeks.
Also we are all seniors and have been programming in C/C++ for at least 3 years.

I looked at your flash stuff before you even reponded to me.. Pretty kick ass. Your art looks real amazing. Your Asteriod game brought back a lot of childhood memories. The second level stopped working right. The collision detection stopped working.
So where are you going to school and for what degree?

-Vincent

[Kristian Joensen]

Mr.Sociopath, you mentiond Torque, but I have heard some pretty bad stuff about it, how about the C4 Engine (http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/index.php), could you use that ?

It is pretty cheap. While still being very feature rich (http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/features.php).

[Kev_Boy]

My opinion.

What you made is nearly useless!
It isn't even remotely related to what you're going to be doing.

I suggest you pick up an SDK for a current game, if you want to be a programmer, I don't think you'll be able to do much on your own though. So join a MOD team, perhaps with your school buddies, but on a recent game not something silly regardless of it being made from scratch.

It'll just be effort better spent :)

[Nessus]

My opinion.

What you made is nearly useless!
It isn't even remotely related to what you're going to be doing.

I suggest you pick up an SDK for a current game, if you want to be a programmer, I don't think you'll be able to do much on your own though. So join a MOD team, perhaps with your school buddies, but on a recent game not something silly regardless of it being made from scratch.

It'll just be effort better spent :)

This is how I feel also. I suggest doing some work in the latest Unreal engine, Doom3 or Source. Knowing how to use a theoretical engine that renders scenes that look 8 years old isn't much use to anyone. Learn to use the tools that are the current standard right now, then supplement that with schooling, but the important part is the hands on experience.

[PlayfulPuppy]

Of course, the engine means pretty much dick for many programmers (Regardless of common belief). Gameplay programming is where it's at, and learning from middleware packages rather than full-blown engines will teach you far more.

Programming MODs through game engines can lead a lot of people into a false sense of security, as a lot of them don't need/bother to learn the underlying principles behind the design choices they're working on top of.

When you learn from the ground up, you can easily transfer the knowledge you gain into different environments. If you work from the top down, as in starting from a fully-featured engine, you'll find a reluctance (Or in some cases an impossibility) to dig, and your knowledge will be limited to that paticular branch of technology.

[Drewcifer]

I feel like I don't know these topics that well.

Ray Tracing
Quaternions
Interpolation
Animation
Rendering


So basically they taught you nothing relevant.

[cathode26]

Of course, the engine means pretty much dick for many programmers (Regardless of common belief). Gameplay programming is where it's at, and learning from middleware packages rather than full-blown engines will teach you far more.

Programming MODs through game engines can lead a lot of people into a false sense of security, as a lot of them don't need/bother to learn the underlying principles behind the design choices they're working on top of.

When you learn from the ground up, you can easily transfer the knowledge you gain into different environments. If you work from the top down, as in starting from a fully-featured engine, you'll find a reluctance (Or in some cases an impossibility) to dig, and your knowledge will be limited to that paticular branch of technology.

You are very right, the game engine I used was intentionally left as basic as it can get so that students can edit it and make it better.

My opinion.

What you made is nearly useless!
It isn't even remotely related to what you're going to be doing.

I suggest you pick up an SDK for a current game, if you want to be a programmer, I don't think you'll be able to do much on your own though. So join a MOD team, perhaps with your school buddies, but on a recent game not something silly regardless of it being made from scratch.

It'll just be effort better spent :)

As far as it being up to date, it is. It was written in directX 9.0. So it is very related to what I am doing, it is a game. Just because it doesn't look like a professional game doesn't mean it was not current. It is a student made game. It was even modeled after a professional engine.

So basically they taught you nothing relevant.

And those topics I meantioned are not things you learn first. All of them are advanced and you actually dont need to know any of them because the game engine takes care of them.



-Vincent

[Kev_Boy]

As far as it being up to date, it is. It was written in directX 9.0.

No offense man, but it doesn't remotely look like it was written in DX9.0...
Which is quite possibly even worse ;)

[Mr.Sociopath]

I looked at your flash stuff before you even reponded to me.. Pretty kick ass. Your art looks real amazing. Your Asteriod game brought back a lot of childhood memories. The second level stopped working right. The collision detection stopped working.
So where are you going to school and for what degree?

-Vincent

wow thanks.. I thouth my stuff were just plain ugly :p
as for the asteroid game..well..it was a schoolwork I was done(meaning about 80%)..I found it plain ugly so I put it on the shelve and on my website..I didnt expect someone to play 2 levels in a row :p

I'm going to school in Université du Québec à Chicoutimi(translated..University of quebec in chicoutimi) in bacc in computer with major in game design.. i'll begin a minor in numeric arts next semester..


Mr.Sociopath, you mentiond Torque, but I have heard some pretty bad stuff about it, how about the C4 Engine (http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/index.php), could you use that ?

It is pretty cheap. While still being very feature rich (http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/features.php).

hey this game engine looks really nice..
but it's 200$.. not much more than torque but the school I'm going to has the licenses for torque.. but still I'll eventually talk about it to my team, and we'll see..
thanks for the link, it might prove very usefull :p

[cathode26]

No offense man, but it doesn't remotely look like it was written in DX9.0...
Which is quite possibly even worse ;)

You must be some kind of tard. When have you seen a student project look as good as a professional game that had a multi million dollar budget and 40+ technical people working on it for a year.

A student made game engine (by past students) and a student made game using that game engine (by my group) just doesn't even compare, especially to what you do, modding levels.

-Vincent

[Jiminator]

No offense man, but it doesn't remotely look like it was written in DX9.0...
Which is quite possibly even worse ;)
lol, you are confusing the engine with the textures, the animations, etc. there is a LOT that goes into a game before it is production ready.

[Destroyer]

no way man, just graduate, get some work experience that will help you out more.

[cathode26]

no way man, just graduate, get some work experience that will help you out more.


Dude you are the first person to give me a straight answer... Thank you!!

-Vincent

[Theseus314]

Dude you are the first person to give me a straight answer... Thank you!!

-Vincent

Well, no, he's the first guy to give you the answer you want. Obviously you should graduate, but while you're still at university, work on own projects, and don't make crap.

For that game demo, your artists should be shot. There's about two days work there for one person. I honestly think they must have had to try really hard to animate those characters so poorly.

Also, even the code doesn't look like 16 weeks work.

You must be some kind of tard. When have you seen a student project look as good as a professional game that had a multi million dollar budget and 40+ technical people working on it for a year.

A student made game engine (by past students) and a student made game using that game engine (by my group) just doesn't even compare, especially to what you do, modding levels.

It doesn't need to look like Oblivion. But something like a crash TV clone with 3d graphics and shaders shouldn't be outside the scope of one person for 16 weeks, let alone 3 programmers.

Now, it's arrogant of you to call people a 'tard', and worse than that you're wrong in thinking that the demo is anything to write home about. I've looked at the engine source code, and you've really not even seemingly taken advantage of it.

Also, which parts of that demo did *you* personally do?

[Kev_Boy]

You must be some kind of tard. When have you seen a student project look as good as a professional game that had a multi million dollar budget and 40+ technical people working on it for a year.

A student made game engine (by past students) and a student made game using that game engine (by my group) just doesn't even compare, especially to what you do, modding levels.

Again, my opinion below.

Develop realistically!!!

Realise building a game from scratch in a few weeks with only a few men just ain't going to work! A MOD would've been a much more realistic endeavour.

Nobody will take this stuff seriously, but you have every right to be mad, who wouldn't when working on something for several weeks and then come to the conclusion it's negligible. It really isn't worth much. If anything.

[Mr.Sociopath]

I'd think this project was worth it for the learning part.. but it shouldn't mean stop working there.. always push to bring skills to a higher level..todays technology is so advanced that from scratch after 2 course it's impossible to obtain..but I think the goal wasn't to make the greatest game of all time neither since it involves a duck shooting green balls at exploding men :p
so, I think it was a good learning project and I hope you'll continue and get a specialization in some part of the game conception(physics graphics etc) or using premade tool, to make an overall better product..
for a programmer I'd think the specialization idea would be better though..

[cathode26]

Well, no, he's the first guy to give you the answer you want. Obviously you should graduate, but while you're still at university, work on own projects, and don't make crap.

For that game demo, your artists should be shot. There's about two days work there for one person. I honestly think they must have had to try really hard to animate those characters so poorly.

Also, even the code doesn't look like 16 weeks work.



It doesn't need to look like Oblivion. But something like a crash TV clone with 3d graphics and shaders shouldn't be outside the scope of one person for 16 weeks, let alone 3 programmers.

Now, it's arrogant of you to call people a 'tard', and worse than that you're wrong in thinking that the demo is anything to write home about. I've looked at the engine source code, and you've really not even seemingly taken advantage of it.

Also, which parts of that demo did *you* personally do?

"
Would you suggest staying an extra year (graduating in a year) and trying to learn as much as I can or graduating (now) and learning on the job?

Do you know if 3d realms will hire programmers that will have to be trained in those topics?
"

Those were my questions. I didnt ask anyone to bash my project especially from people that are not even game programmers. The project was shown to help people answer these questions. I am not going to defend my stuff anymore don't post here unless you have something relevant to say about these questions.

Maybe I need to show this statement again

I have 1 presentable demo. Here is a screen shot.
The mini map didnt render right on my professors computer because his graphics card was a little old and he is the one who did the screen shots and the wmv

It was written in C++ and directX 9 using the Sage Engine.
Sage = Simple Academic Game Engine

Remember not to be too mean if you watch it, it is our first 3d game. (a group of people worked on it, not just me)




-Vincent

[phreak]

I think you should definitely stay an extra year.

No matter what you do, I think you need to know how to do everything: Rendering, Sound, Networking, Physics, I/O, Data Compression, Memory Management, Optimization etc. Not necessarily in detail but knowing how the engine works and knowing its limitations are definitely a good thing when it comes to design.

What I would suggest is developing your own engine or at least modify some GPLed engine so that you can practice the programming techniques. Don't expect to do that during class, think of it as a portfolia, extra self-development project. Class is rarely sufficient for anything, you have to push on your own.

[DudeMiester]

imho, it can't hurt.

[supermeerkat]

frankly bud i doubt the courses are going to take you anywhere. geme companies are probably looking for people with skills and talents. Knowing the basics, although useful, is not very useful. using the skills to make your own game to showcase your talents, now that would be a good thing.

As a former employer myself I'd take issue with that. (I ran a company that did Crystal Reports / Business Objects development and consultancy for three years, and employed four people before the work dried up).

If I had a choice of two individuals, with equal skills but one had a set of relevant qualifications and the other didn't I'd always go for the one with qualifications, as they tend to be more rounded individuals. I think you'll find that this is the case with nearly any industry / employer. There are of course exceptions to this, but they are very rare.

Also, if you don't know the basics how can you effectively write the more advanced stuff? I've come across people like that, and they had learned parrot style to how lay the basic preparatory code, but had no idea what any of it did. A case in point would be a fellow I employed who put together the data access section of his code by copying and pasting stuff from the MSDN help files and then hacking at it until it worked, after that he began building a GUI on top (something he was good at) over his hacked, crappy code.

Just my two pence really.

[Jiminator]

the comparison would be against someone with real world experience (& portfolio) as compares to someone with book training.

and all the msdn/visual c++/windows stuff was horrible. coding for the bloated architechture involved tons of copy/paste to make the framework fit the task.

[Kristian Joensen]

I believe someone recommended internships, but AFAIK most companies in the game industry don't have them and actually scourn that concept.

However I bleieve that Lionhead atleast WAS an exception to that rule.

[supermeerkat]

the comparison would be against someone with real world experience (& portfolio) as compares to someone with book training.

and all the msdn/visual c++/windows stuff was horrible. coding for the bloated architechture involved tons of copy/paste to make the framework fit the task.

Have you ever worked as a programmer, or developed commercial software yourself? Just curious to know.

My point wasn't about copying and pasting per se, rather, copying and pasting without understanding.

[Jiminator]

yes, thats what I do, coding + management. The understanding is critical. :) I would choose someone with experience and understanding over someone with only knowledge. Unfortunately the first group may get filtered out before the job search process presents the candidates.

But all too often I see instances where someone has implemented a design, and when I look at what they have done I see they have no functional knowledge of how the process should actually work, or lack the research skills to figure it out. Very disappointing.

Good programmers with research skills are a rarity, and research skills are vital because in most businesses there will unfortunately be little to no documentation.

[cathode26]

The extra classes I would take:
directed studies
seminar style class

Directed study - a student chooses a topic with the professors approval and then does a project on that topic. (Example: A game featuring something)

Seminar style class - students doing there own research on game programming topics and then teaching the class what they learned.

I know having a portfolio is neccessary to get a game programming job and I know the better the portfolio the better job I will get. If I stayed in school longer I would have more stuff to show and a better chance at getting a job. This is how I feel right now, but I have had a lot of parental input to graduate and get a job. Telling my parents those things were not enough to make them see differently. I am trying to gather industry specific information so that I can say "well the gaming industry is different, this is why... and you need to accept that it is imperative to stay longer and come out with a better portfolio."

I think I can get a game job if I were to graduate early but I don't think I will be happy with the job that I get. I will obviously be seen as a risk because I dont have a solid portfolio and I will have to get a very low level job. I know a lot of these issues are normal to new college graduates and that is basically what my fathers arguement is. These things are normal, you may struggle to get a job, everyone straight out of college does. You are going to start really low and you are going to have to be trained, but that is what you are looking for. There is going to be a company out there willing to train you because you have some knowledge about game programming, which is better than most fresh computer science college graduates.

-Vincent

[Boinky]

I dunno how far N Texas is away from 3DR, but you could try to intern at 3DR ;).(On a more serious note, if you can intern somewhere, do it :)) If all else fails.. There's always EA, they could always use an extra hand pumping out Nascar games!

[peoplessi]

Can't you take some time off the college, and try some internship, see how your skills compare. You will probably learn a lot by that way too, and then if it still bit too over your head, you could then possibly return to the college and take some extra courses? Or graduate, and do some courses afterwards? These are just some points, as I really do not know how you schoolsystem works, since I live in Finland. I wish we had game programming, or yes we do, but they only take around 10 students per year.

You can learn a lot by just doing things by yourself, and doing selfstudying. Something that I catched on your schools homepage, doing a little project that shows what _you_ do best in game programming. That would be a good idea anyways, even if you decide to continue or graduate. I have a solid base to build on. Joining a modteam, tough one, since it needs commitment, but then again that could be a really a thing that would teach you a lot, on teamwork, keeping on schedule(if the team has one), general workflow. But you should apply to more "professional" level modteam. Yes, it would be in some degree enginebased stuff that you learn, but there is a lot general knowledge to be gained that way.

This comes from an person that is-yet-to-get an academic degree. It would be nice to what 3D Realms thinks about training their staff, or in general "gamedeveloper training staff"?