The Running of the Bulls [Archive]

Joe Siegler

07-13-2007, 11:27 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_of_the_Bulls

Can someone explain to me what the attraction to do this is? I've known about it for ages, and all I can think of every year is "How come more people aren't really injured when this happens"? Well, apparently it didn't go so well this year. Read something about the bulls "splitting up", which apparently can be chaos, as the "safety" (such that it is) is predicated on the bulls being mostly kept together for control.

So why would people get out in front of these things? To an extent I understand why bullfighters do this - it's a bit more professional (somewhat) than your average flunkie running down a street in Spain being chased by a rather irritated large animal.

I know we've had people on this forum from Spain before, so if there's any reading this now, what's the big deal? I'm not criticizing the thing, just trying to understand WHY people do this.

Speaking of being "hurt", there was a picture that showed up on the newswire this morning of one of the guys getting gored. Ouch. I mean F'in OUCH!

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/2008/captef5af798074f4a4e807ez5.jpg

Here's the wire story I was talking about:

PAMPLONA, Spain (AFP) - Thirteen people were injured, three very seriously, on the sixth day Thursday of Spain's famous San Fermin running of the bulls festival, local hospitals said.

A 23-year-old Mexican and a 26-year-old German were among the runners badly hurt when thousands took their chances to be chased by bulls along an 825-metre (yard) course in this northeastern Spanish town.

Other tourists as well as Spaniards were among the injured, many of whom were gored by the bulls' horns or hurt through falling during the six-minute dash, or "encierro".

It was the highest daily number of injured since the annual bullrun festival kicked off Friday.

The bulls are released onto the streets each morning, and chase the runners along the course leading to the arenas where bullfights are later staged.

Fourteen people have been killed in the event since 1911.

The running of the bulls was immortalised in Ernest Hemingway's 1926 novel "The Sun Also Rises".

huey_yeng

07-13-2007, 11:31 AM

Ouch that guy leg in the picture got gored by the horn is spine chilling!:insomnia:

Phait

07-13-2007, 11:34 AM

I don't know, I'll ask my Spain friend when he pops online.

I disagree with this event though. I think it's kind of inhumane and totally dumb. Using wild animals as some extreme-junky entertainment? Somebody gets injured or dies and its proof you just don't mess with nature.

Sang

07-13-2007, 11:43 AM

So they're actually letting themselves be chased on purpose? At least that's the impression that quote gave me.

In that case, dunno why, I guess they get a kick out of it which they enjoy.

RedSplat

07-13-2007, 11:58 AM

It's a rite of manhood. :mryuck:

Joe Siegler

07-13-2007, 12:05 PM

It's a rite of manhood. :mryuck:

OK, if I accept that, then what does it prove? I mean honestly - the whole thing just seems kinda dumb.

RedSplat

07-13-2007, 12:06 PM

http://www.runningofthenudes.com/bullfighting_facts.asp

DavoX

07-13-2007, 12:22 PM

Don't worry people, at least they get their asses horned by being dumb idiots.

crunchy superman

07-13-2007, 01:13 PM

I'm shocked that only fourteen have been killed over the years.

Great pic, btw :)

MAT

07-13-2007, 01:21 PM

Bullfighting is cruel too. You become a man when you kill a bull with swords? To hell with the "it's honorful for the bull to die by the sword" bullshit. This is where the word bullshit comes from. Because it's bullshit.

And people apparently enjoy watching animals getting killed. Whenever I see a matador hurting a bull, I hope to see his neck getting broken.

Scotty

07-13-2007, 01:31 PM

I had watched the Running of the Bulls every year from 1995 to 2003. As far as I know, it's no longer on American television.

If I can ever afford the "Ultimate European Vacation", I'll end up following the Tour de France, stopping over in Spain to run with the bulls, and then going back to Spain for Tomatina.

avatar_58

07-13-2007, 01:39 PM

I looked at that pic and thought "haha...priceless expression". Then I slowly realized some that bull's horn was missing. Then came a sudden "OH SHIT" feeling.....

mysteryperfecta

07-13-2007, 01:40 PM

That pic is disturbing. What might be even more disgusting is a subsequent pic a half-second later, and then one a second later. What are the odds that that's where the horn stopped, and that it exited through the initial puncture wound? :mryuck:

John

07-13-2007, 01:45 PM

I hope they get this amazing high or rush from it because I find the "Running of the Bulls" to be extremely idiotic. :o

It's not like they can ever be MAD at the bulls if they get injured or extremely hurt. Who are they going to blame besides themselves?

avatar_58

07-13-2007, 01:47 PM

John

07-13-2007, 01:49 PM

Video plz!

Phait

07-13-2007, 01:49 PM

I looked at that pic and thought "haha...priceless expression". Then I slowly realized some that bull's horn was missing. Then came a sudden "OH SHIT" feeling.....

Now if you look close you can see his horn underneath the guy's skin and it's tip below his knee :o

John

07-13-2007, 01:51 PM

And yet his expression gives me "eww! get it off me! :("

Dave-ros

07-13-2007, 01:52 PM

Isn't there a similar sport in the USA where the matador-equivalent jabs the bull with paint sticks rather than sharp objects, so it doesn't die? I saw that on American TV once, but it still seemed cruel, as the commentator said at one point, "this bull has been raised to really hate humans!" Now how would they do that... starving, teasing, singing off-key to it? ;)

Joe Siegler

07-13-2007, 02:14 PM

Followup picture of the guy in the first post:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Spain-BrothersGored.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Unfortunately the leg that got.. er... "stabbed" is not in the picture.

Komb.at

07-13-2007, 02:23 PM

I cheer for every kill or wound the bulls score. Because when they have to die, they can very well take some f*cking humans with 'em.

I don't really care about the chase, i just hate the "bull-fighting" slaughterfest that fallows

Dave-ros

07-13-2007, 02:26 PM

Amen to that. They should stop tormenting bulls in order to turn them into excuses for blood sports; they should leave them to what they do best, which is doing naughty things to cows ;)

I'm so torn -- I'm reading Prelude to Dune: House Atreides at the moment, where (mutant) bull fighting is portrayed as a noble sport :(

mysteryperfecta

07-13-2007, 05:11 PM

In terms of bullfighting, I'm sure many of us were surprised when we learned than there's more to the exhibition than just the "Ole!" cape-waving stuff.

Scream

07-13-2007, 05:51 PM

In terms of bullfighting, I'm sure many of us were surprised when we learned than there's more to the exhibition than just the "Ole!" cape-waving stuff.

The first time I visited Mexico back in the mid-90s my buddy and I went to the bullfights. We had no idea they actually killed the bulls. It was an eye-opener, and nothing I'd ever want to experience again. They don't just kill the poor thing either. They torture it to piss it off before killing it. Anyway, not my idea of entertainment.

SonnyBonds

07-13-2007, 06:02 PM

I suppose they do this running of the bulls thing to get a real adrenaline kick.. people do a lot of stupid things to get that and this is one of them.

Sang

07-13-2007, 06:44 PM

Well, it's the way of the world I guess. "Survival of the fittest" doesn't really count because without the usage of any tools, almost every animal could kick our ass. :o

John

07-13-2007, 08:46 PM

The fittest doesnt always mean brute strength or size, but mentality aswell.

Joe Siegler

07-13-2007, 09:49 PM

The first time I visited Mexico back in the mid-90s my buddy and I went to the bullfights. We had no idea they actually killed the bulls. It was an eye-opener, and nothing I'd ever want to experience again. They don't just kill the poor thing either. They torture it to piss it off before killing it. Anyway, not my idea of entertainment.

I'm honestly not trying to insult you here, but what did you think they did with the bulls? Seriously, I'm curious.

Mudsling3

07-13-2007, 10:12 PM

I recall watching a documentry that someone came up with an idea to keep bull fighting without hurting any bull. I thought these guys and gals got guts. A lot more people got killed in much less dignified way like car accidents. I will definitely watch it if I am in Spain, but I would prove my courage in other ways :)

DavoX

07-13-2007, 10:21 PM

Tell me where's the dignity on getting your ass raped by a horn?

Ivan

07-13-2007, 10:36 PM

I'm honestly not trying to insult you here, but what did you think they did with the bulls? Seriously, I'm curious.

Six years ago, I went to Mexico City and they literally pissed the animal off for more than an hour, they played football among two of them, a lot of other different segments to keep us entertained, until they just sudently killed him, cut his two ears and throw them in the crowd. Disgusting. Hated it. The beginning of the show was entertaining, until they decided to kill him off. :mryuck:

Dave-ros

07-14-2007, 05:36 AM

I didn't even know the matador killed the bull until I read it in a book -- and it was a children's book, so it just said the matador pierced the bull with a sword, rather than admitting that the matador stabs the bull loads of times so he bleeds to death slowly. Bear in mind that prior to this, my only knowledge of bullfighting came from that Bugs Bunny cartoon, where the matador gets pwnt :p

Kalki

07-14-2007, 07:31 AM

It's all Bugs Bunny's fault... That cwazy wabbit!

Inanimate Carbon Rod

07-14-2007, 10:13 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070713/481/f04561bb3d2e4c869c591e641a16cf3a

hahah hahahah hahahaha

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070712/ids_photos_wl/r351009548.jpg;_ylt=Aul8g6HoNy2DzOU3gAWEUURPXLoF
lols

Samji

07-14-2007, 10:48 AM

Spanish culture is infamously cruel and disrespectful to animals. This is just one prominent example. I'm not one of these PETA nuts, but I would agree with them that this and bullfighting are firstly very cruel and secondly, totally unnecessary.

People involved (although, deservingly) get hurt, the animals get agitated and frightened. What's the point in this?

In Spain (and maybe other Hispanic countries), they used to also sell hummingbirds on a stick which would spin around and around for children's amusement until their necks broke. I think its fair to say, that Spanish culture generally has no respect for animals.

DavoX

07-14-2007, 10:49 AM

Deserved.

Scream

07-14-2007, 11:07 AM

I'm honestly not trying to insult you here, but what did you think they did with the bulls? Seriously, I'm curious.

To be honest, we never gave it any thought at all. I suppose if we had we would have known. I guess I'd had more exposure to things like rodeo with it's riders and clowns interacting with bulls, and maybe that was what was in my head. The bullfights were just something you did to take in local culture in Mexico, so we signed up and didn't give it any further thought as to what it actually was we were about to witness.

It wasn't until we got there, a bull came out into the arena, and a couple of guys on huge padded horses came out and started stabbing it with long spears to warm it up for the matador that we looked at each other and thought "Oh, ya, this is what this is about."

The fact that I was in my early 20s and piss drunk on tequila and XX beer probably didn't help my cognitive reasoning either. ;)

But yeah, pretty clueless in retrospect.

Dave-ros

07-14-2007, 11:12 AM

I noticed when I was on a self-catering field trip in Spain, that even their onion rings aren't onion rings, they're shrimp rings. I was surprised to find out there was actually a Spanish word for "vegetarian" :o

It is a bit ironic that a country which was so cruel to animals would wage a campaign of extermination against the Aztecs for being "barbaric". After all, the bull in a bullfighting competition is supposedly treated like royalty before his fateful battle, and similarly the Aztecs pampered their "perfect victim" before killing him to bring rainfall.

Or maybe that's it -- they thought the Aztecs were barbarians because they didn't put their "perfect victim" on the rack and then burn him at the stake! Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition :p

Just for the sake of balance, however, there are people in Spain who are against animal cruelty, which is mucho bueno or however they spell it ;)

Kalki

07-14-2007, 11:47 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070713/481/f04561bb3d2e4c869c591e641a16cf3a

hahah hahahah hahahaha

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070712/ids_photos_wl/r351009548.jpg;_ylt=Aul8g6HoNy2DzOU3gAWEUURPXLoF
lols

That bull ought to be a moderator around here. :love:

Sang

07-14-2007, 12:33 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070712/ids_photos_wl/r351009548.jpg;_ylt=Aul8g6HoNy2DzOU3gAWEUURPXLoF
lols

Did he shit his pants or something? :D ;)

I hope more bulls will revolt next time.. And then the city will be overrun by bulls! YEAH

DavoX

07-14-2007, 12:46 PM

was surprised to find out there was actually a Spanish word for "vegetarian"

That's kind of naive to not expect a direct translation.

Ivan

07-14-2007, 02:52 PM

http://www.knbc.com/slideshow/news/13679015/detail.html

Few more pictures.

Scream

07-14-2007, 06:36 PM

Ow, that one guy got it buried right in his ass. Reminds me of Billy Crystal in City Slickers. :D

Micki!

07-15-2007, 01:10 PM

I'm not very interested in these Bull-runs... I don't get the point why poeple wanna risk this sort of thing... and think if you actually get hurt, or even killed...
Not a cool thing to experience on a vacation oif you ask me... (Or if you live there)

Well, i'm not complaining, just saying it's not my thing... anyone who wanna do this thing go-ahead... i'm not impressed if someone returns saying "i didn't get hurt", because SOMEONE there probably did, which is sad in itself imo...

That bull ought to be a moderator around here. :love:

I think we have enough bullies around here..! :tinyted:

DavoX

07-16-2007, 08:26 AM

The article is in spanish, but the guy pretty much got gored in The abdomen, torax, Face and....BALLS :D .

That's what you get for killing bulls, idiot.

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/cultura/Espla/pendiente/traslado/Espana/elpepucul/20070716elpepucul_1/Tes

Nessus

07-16-2007, 05:39 PM

I get the whole running of the bulls thing. There are always going to be psycho's and wildmen that will do these kinds of stupid things.

Anyone ever hear of Hemingway's book about bullfighting called Death in the Afternoon? He goes into every aspect of it, it was pretty interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_in_the_Afternoon

Komb.at

07-17-2007, 03:29 AM

The thing that pisses me off most about bullfights is, that when the bull wins, and the torrero lies in his own puddle of blood... they still kill the bull. wtf c'mon, it's a duel, why wouldn't the bull be allowed to win? Let him free ffs!

Dave-ros

07-17-2007, 03:33 AM

Yeah, that's another way that Bugs Bunny cartoon lied -- the bull was bowing to the audience and being showered with flowers, rather than killed as a punishment for not losing! :mad:

Scream

07-17-2007, 06:01 PM

Yeah, that's another way that Bugs Bunny cartoon lied -- the bull was bowing to the audience and being showered with flowers, rather than killed as a punishment for not losing! :mad:

Goddam Bugs Bunny!

:ted:

Joe Siegler

07-18-2007, 12:46 PM

So, did we get a conclusive answer to my original post here?

avatar_58

07-18-2007, 12:50 PM

People are nuts, thats basically the gist of it.

Dave-ros

07-18-2007, 01:00 PM

Double post around the time of the database update, sorry :doh:

Dave-ros

07-18-2007, 01:03 PM

I think the answer is simply that the attraction for some is, "because we've always done it and therefore it's a tradition", while for others, it's more the hope of seeing stupid people get gored (a bit like Jackass :p).

Mind you, at least it's vaguely "manly" to jump out in front of bulls -- what's the use of fox hunting (especially compared to a straightforward cull)? As a Doctor Who fan, Joe, you probably remember what the Doctor mutters about it in Survival ;)

Phait

07-18-2007, 06:31 PM

I've talked with my Spanish friend about this past couple days, here's his recent input:

Juli: well, bullriding consists just in a bunch of people being chased by a bunch of bulls
Juli: and trying to not being caught
Juli: i don't see any cruelty on this
Juli: is just a tradition
Juli: they also do musical shows at night, lots of drinking, party and that
Juli: it's just a big party
Juli: and the bullridings are part of it
Juli: at other hand, we have the bullfighting
Juli: thats another tradition, and bullfighting it's really cruel
Juli: but it seems here people is mistaking bullfighting with bullriding, two different things
Juli: but also i have to say that a lot of people is against bullfighting in spain
Juli: some years ago, there was a big manifestation/riot here in barcelona against bullfighting
Juli: the city hall took measures and now barcelona is "anti-bullfighting city"
Juli: there are no more bullfights here since two years ago
Juli: it seems that people is taking conscience about this
Phait: what about the perception that spain is cruel to animals
Juli: for example, many cities followed the example of barcelona
Juli: but i think it's silly to say that spanish culture it's cruel to animals just for a thing we done some years ago
Juli: i mean, we don't go kiling birds and all when we go walking by the streets
Juli: just was an entertainment that persisted maaaaaaaaaany years for the fact of being a "tradition"
Juli: until people started to realize that was silly to be cruel to an animal just for fun
Juli: but say that spanish culture is cruel to animals is just generalize
Juli: we have natural reserves for the preservation of determined species for example
Juli: thats cruel?
Juli: (trying to be ironic)
Juli: it's very easy to talk bad about something without knowing a thing
Juli: i can do that too

Dave-ros

07-18-2007, 06:44 PM

It's good to have it confirmed from a local that things are changing for the better in Spain :)

However, how can he say that the bull run isn't cruel, when people can jab the bulls with sharp sticks from the safety of upper storeys? Or is that something that's been outlawed as well? Moreover, what happens to the bulls when the run is over -- does someone turn off the Bat-Bovine Anger Inducer gadget, and they all just trot home meekly?

I suppose that if there's no stabbing going on (except of humans :p), and there are trained people who can control them when necessary, then it'd only be as "cruel" as the "bucking bronco" sport in Texas. Am I right, or am I whistlin' Dixie again? :p

Phait

07-18-2007, 06:48 PM

Juli: it's outlawed to jab the bulls
Juli: the message follows asking what happens with the bulls when the bullrunning it's finished
Juli: well, they're carried to a safe place until the next bullrunning :)
Juli: into a provisional farm, to be more precise

DavoX

07-18-2007, 06:49 PM

He misunderstood bull running with bull riding.:p

oak man

07-18-2007, 06:50 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_of_the_Bulls

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/2008/captef5af798074f4a4e807ez5.jpg

Here's the wire story I was talking about:

Aye aye aye, that would feel funny eh?:mryuck: ooh spooky!

Phait

07-18-2007, 06:51 PM

He misunderstood bull running with bull riding.

He just acknowledged that, heh.

ShakeItBaby

07-23-2007, 08:49 PM

Anyone ever hear of Hemingway's book about bullfighting called Death in the Afternoon? He goes into every aspect of it, it was pretty interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_in_the_Afternoon

Yes, I've read it, it's comprehensive. Mind you, Hemingway does like the sport and seems to feel it's somehow noble. Joe, if you want a detailed answer to your topic question, that book will explain it for you.

helious

07-25-2007, 11:13 AM

OK, if I accept that, then what does it prove? I mean honestly - the whole thing just seems kinda dumb.

Adrenaline

shiranui

07-30-2007, 09:24 AM

I'm all for it - gives the bulls their one chance at revenge for the ridiculous spectacle that is bullfighting.

Soothsayer

07-30-2007, 10:10 AM

Running of the Bulls probably has some cultural relevance/tradition from the past, but it's long since become nothing more than a tourist gimmick for thick-headed travellers to get an adrenaline rush being chased by a half-ton of bovine muscle with horns.

Frankly if you get hurt/killed, you get no sympathy from me. I'm not a animal rights activist and I love my hamburger, but cruelty to animals for the sake of entertainment belongs in the dark ages.

wayskobfssae

08-01-2007, 01:22 PM

sawn_off

08-01-2007, 06:40 PM

It's a very old tradtition, just like England had fox hunting, until a few years ago, and America's horse racing. I doubt they're tortured before the running, that's usually just an old leftover stereotype. Bulls aren't very nice animals. If you came anywhere as near the average bull in a field there's a good chance you'd be gored.

DavoX

08-01-2007, 11:53 PM

A lion and a croc are also very likely to bite your ass off, that means we should all stab them to death?

Phait

08-01-2007, 11:54 PM

Bulls aren't very nice animals. If you came anywhere as near the average bull in a field there's a good chance you'd be gored.

I'd be pissed too if someone encroached on my territory.

sawn_off

08-02-2007, 12:04 AM

Commando Nukem

08-02-2007, 02:35 AM

Not all of them... unless the entire species posed an imminent threat at the same time.....

I believe Spanish customs dictate that if the bull isn't killed in the fight, he's killed backstage(if you will) in disgrace, and the bullfighter's reputation is ruined. If the fighter manages to kil him, however, the bull goes out in a blaze of glory, memorable and dramatic.

The only reason they pose a threat in this situation is because they are being let lose in a city. A wall of people could easily be taken down if the Bulls smarted up for even a second, and like was said, this time things got out-of-hand.

This seems to be nothing more then a bunchof adrenaline junkies getting their rocks off to what they seem to think is fun... Whatever, its there right. Not fari to the bulls though, and those morons who get it in the ass, or the face or the gut... They deserve what they get, they're toying with a creature and nature tens to toy right back.

sawn_off

08-02-2007, 09:54 AM

Not fair to the bulls? He's pumped up for his big appearance, thousands of people cheer him on like a god, and he's got tons of soft, pudgy targets that can't run as fast as he can stuck in narrow, winding streets.

I don't think he's completely miserable....

It's pretty crazy to participate in the running, but lots of people do, and lots of people come out unscathed. I imagine they sign some legal waivers beforehand so they can't sue for injuries.

You'd think they'd make the horns less sharp to cut down the goring risk, but who knows, that might be against tradition as well.

Opus131

08-02-2007, 12:00 PM

They are bulls, why the fuss? We live in a culture that consumes thousand of tons of meat every day and we squirm when animals get killed for entertainment? What do you think would happen to the bulls anyway? That's right, they would be sent straight to a slaughter house. Talk about being out of touch with reality.

Opus131

08-02-2007, 12:08 PM

A lion and a croc are also very likely to bite your ass off, that means we should all stab them to death?

Maybe you should ask the people who actually have to live with them.

Opus131

08-02-2007, 12:11 PM

Mind you, Hemingway does like the sport and seems to feel it's somehow noble.

Hemingway was from a different epoch. There were no hippies in the world he grew up in...

Commando Nukem

08-02-2007, 12:40 PM

Dave-ros

08-02-2007, 12:50 PM

Opus, you are aware that animals in slaughter houses don't suffer, but are killed quickly and painlessly (or at least that's the theory :o), whereas bulls involved in fights with humans are deliberately made to suffer and die, bleeding to death slowly? And whereas a bull doesn't know humans are cheering him on (and probably wouldn't give a flying fudge anyway -- they're not cows, and therefore their admiration is irrelevant!), he can't help but be aware he's having sharp objects stuck in him repeatedly, and he's getting weaker and weaker...

Opus131

08-02-2007, 12:52 PM

Whats the all time classic line from mom about eating dinner?

"Don't play with your food."

A poignant observation, considering liberalism is a form matriarchal inanity. Bravo.

Remember though, don't ever do anything that's even remotely dangerous or brash, Big Sister is watching, making sure everybody is safe, warm and cozy, even if it means sacrificing your freedom as well as your manhood...

Dave-ros

08-02-2007, 12:58 PM

I think that's a topic for another thread... one in Joe's "Absolutely do not approve for GenMess under any circumstances ever" pile ;)

Opus131

08-02-2007, 01:06 PM

Opus, you are aware that animals in slaughter houses don't suffer, but are killed quickly and painlessly

They are animals, somehow, i can't make myself to care. We still have people dying of starvation in the world, the suffering of a few bulls dosn't seem much like a priority to me.

Commando Nukem

08-02-2007, 01:10 PM

They are animals, somehow, i can't make myself to care. We still have people dying of starvation in the world, the suffering of a few bulls dosn't seem much like a priority to me.

Well, they're gonna do whatever they're gonna do, and thats their right. I just think its useless, and senseless cruelty and risk of life. Much like mountain climbing in the winter. Its not wise, and it puts other people at risk(who do not want to be at risk) of injury or death. Thats all my point on the issue was... Just seems kinda worthless to do this sorta thing. Horse racing, and fox hunting are a little different. Foxes are SHOT and thusly they usually die pretty instantly. Horses are taken care of altogether and of the three its the tamest "sport" (A better term would be "Event" I suppose..).

Dave-ros

08-02-2007, 01:14 PM

There are people suffering in the world, but I don't see that as an excuse to inflict further suffering on animals just for fun. If the suffering of humans troubles you, do something about it, don't just sit around slagging off "hippies" and "liberals" for caring about something you don't ;)

Opus131

08-02-2007, 01:48 PM

If the suffering of humans troubles you

I never said it troubles me, only that there are bigger priorities in the world to get indignant about, if you really must.

Bull fighting may seem like a pointless activity at the moment buts that's only because the Iberias have become a *****fied socialist joke. In the old days the bulls had a real fighting chance, and there was honor in that, for both the animal and the man. Of course, the very idea of 'honor' has been ridiculed into oblivion by modern society so it's not like it has any meaning anymore...

Dave-ros

08-02-2007, 02:05 PM

Of course, the very idea of 'honor' has been ridiculed into oblivion by modern society so it's not like it has any meaning anymore...
Now that I agree with :D

However, humans can fight back (I'm sure there's a noose with Kim Jong-Il's name on it somewhere, and a red-hot poker that's just for Robert Mugabe :p), while animals can't (due to their lack of opposable thumbs), hence the tendency to feel more sorry for animals than humans. It's like how you probably wouldn't stand up to bullies that were harassing a normal person, but you might feel compelled to do so if they were pushing around a handicapped kid... humans like to fight for the underdog ;)

Opus131

08-02-2007, 02:18 PM

Now that I agree with :D

The fact you think that's not an issue really demonstrates just how much our civilization has degenerated.

Now that I agree with :D
However, humans can fight back (I'm sure there's a noose with Kim Jong-Il's name on it somewhere, and a red-hot poker that's just for Robert Mugabe :p), while animals can't (due to their lack of opposable thumbs), hence the tendency to feel more sorry for animals than humans. It's like how you probably wouldn't stand up to bullies that were harassing a normal person, but you might feel compelled to do so if they were pushing around a handicapped kid... humans like to fight for the underdog ;)

I tend never to equate animals to humans, if i can help it. I think that's the fallacy with your argument.

Kalki

08-03-2007, 01:20 PM

I tend never to equate animals to humans, if i can help it. I think that's the fallacy with your argument.
I believe empathy with any living being, is something to strive for. Because it's quite easy to reverse this, by equating humans to animals and that's when we inflict the worst atrocities upon ourselves.

Opus131

08-03-2007, 03:12 PM

I believe empathy with any living being, is something to strive for. Because it's quite easy to reverse this, by equating humans to animals and that's when we inflict the worst atrocities upon ourselves.

I don't see it that way. Empathy for me is nothing but mere emotionalism, nothing more. It's acting upon one's feelings rather then one's mind, eschewing all your reasoning powers and defining your thoughts according to what your heart tells you at any given moment. This can only lead to irrational and ineffective knee jerk reactions to problems that occupy a specific and concrete space in the real world and have no relation to your personal and highly subjective feelings.

Think about it. What you are telling me here is that the reason why so many atrocities are committed in the world is because some people just haven't learned to feel sorry enough about the sufferings of others, and if we really teach everybody to be more in touch with their feelings then we wouldn't have so many problems. A bit naive perhaps?

You can't let your feelings run your life, you have to look at things from a rational point of view. Bullfighting may seem like an outmoded tradition stemming from a more barbaric period in European history to those who have never been brought up within the rightful context (which i guess includes modern day Spaniards if you consider they often drug the animals before the show down), but if it ought to be banned it should be because of hard reasoning, not because you feel really sorry for the bulls (for about five minutes).

Also, never, ever equate the suffering of animals to that of humans, even if you feel bad all the same.

avatar_58

08-03-2007, 04:09 PM

This can only lead to irrational and ineffective knee jerk reactions to problems that occupy a specific and concrete space in the real world and have no relation to your personal and highly subjective feelings.

You can't let your feelings run your life, you have to look at things from a rational point of view. Bullfighting may seem like an outmoded tradition stemming from a more barbaric period in European history to those who have never been brought up within the rightful context (which i guess includes modern day Spaniards if you consider they often drug the animals before the show down), but if it ought to be banned it should be because of hard reasoning, not because you feel really sorry for the bulls (for about five minutes).

You know with an attitude like that you are going to end up one miserable lonely bastard.

Also, never, ever equate the suffering of animals to that of humans, even if you feel bad all the same.

Why is that? Sure it's not nearly on the same level, due to brain functions, but you don't think animals feel pain? You don't think they deserve a little more respect than to be killed for enjoyment?

Dave-ros

08-03-2007, 04:15 PM

I think he means that the death of a bull isn't as great a tragedy as the death of a human. But then, we're not exactly rational beings -- if we felt as much sadness over the death of one person as over the death of a thousand, maybe human history wouldn't be so bloody. Or maybe it would, because sadness at a loved one's death can lead to a desire for vengeance... basically, we suck :(

Opus131

08-03-2007, 07:56 PM

but you don't think animals feel pain?

No, i'm saying it doesn't matter that they feel anything: they are animals. Their pain, given that they were actually aware of it in a human sense (they don't) does not belong to the same moral dimension we normally apply to ourselves.

This is all due the fact we are self aware creatures, and unlike animals, we are fully aware of our own mortality, as well. For an animal, pain is a mere impulse, a simple neurological device with no further implications other then the basic function of warning the brain of bodily arm.

With a human, we enter an infinitely more complex dimension where pain assumes deep psychological and existentialistic connotations.

Inflicting pain to an animal can be cruel, for a human, it's also immoral. Indeed, here, as in all things, right and wrong has to be determined on a concrete moral basis that exists in abstract, completely independent from all subjective feelings and ideas. Can you see what i'm getting at?

Opus131

08-03-2007, 08:51 PM

But then, we're not exactly rational beings

I think we are perfectly rational creatures from an absolute point of view. Failure to understand the nature of our actions is where the problem lies most of the times.

Also, both rationality and logic are traits most commonly found on men rather then women, which means that in a matriarchal environment (such as modern society is), lack of reason and poor logic are the default social conditions, so i'm not surprised you'd say that.

if we felt as much sadness over the death of one person as over the death of a thousand, maybe human history wouldn't be so bloody.

That's a pipe dream based on a false premise, that all bloodshed is caused by lack of feelings towards death. The reason there has been so much bloodshed through out the centuries is that life is a zero sum game, and before the miracles of industrialization the game was a particularly brutal one.

In a natural environment, life is not a right, but a privilege that has to be earned constantly, often times at the expense of someone else. This applies both for the individual as well as a group. This is not some great evil inherent to our species, it's what allowed our race to survive in a hostile environment with very scarce resources to rely upon and is what nature demands of us.

This are the conditions in which we evolved and a few thousand years of civilized conduct is not going to change our basic nature. This is why urging people to feel for things ('save the whales' mentality) is not going to 'make a difference' because if nobody has ever cared up to this point chances are nobody ever will.

The most laughable example are those dumb ass activists who think they can stop conflict around the globe by urging everybody not to kill and be nice to one another. People like Rachel Corrie who thought she could stop a bulldozer armed only with empathy and a megaphone and then everybody was surprised when the driver just run her over. Do you think either the Israeli or the Palestinians care about such efforts? Of course not. They hate each other, all the more so because the survival of one group means the expulsion of the other. The game goes on.

Socialism was built on the idea that the nature of individuals was determined by the society which spawned them, and if one could only demolish said society they could have rebuilt a perfect utopia form the rabbles of their revolution. It didn't work then, and it's not working now, though i guess you just can't stop them from trying, which is understandable. It's easier to think you can change human nature and not have to face the alternative.

Destructor

08-03-2007, 09:23 PM

Think about it. What you are telling me here is that the reason why so many atrocities are committed in the world is because some people just haven't learned to feel sorry enough about the sufferings of others, and if we really teach everybody to be more in touch with their feelings then we wouldn't have so many problems. A bit naive perhaps?

Yes, empathy is just an emotion. At the end of the day, emotions don't mean much. In fact, they can blind one to the truth and exasperate an already bad situation. The more empathy people would feel towards animals being hurt then the more hatred those people would feel towards the people hurting those animals. And with that hatred, they're likely to hurt those people! And then you could say that they have become worse than the people hurting the animals in the first place!

What is needed is not someone saying 'fighting Bulls is bad and I feel sorry for them' but to ask the question 'do we really need to keep on doing this?'. Does it have a beneficial effect on society or does it not? Does it conform to the higher ideals we are trying to reach or does it not? In a perfect society, things like this would not be stopped due to heavy protests and emotionally charged speeches. No, they would just be stopped because society as a whole outgrows them. The people would just drop the activity as a child would just suddenly drop watching Seasme Street. No inner conflict, no nothing. Just 'why do we keep doing this? Let's go off and paint a picture or whatever instead'.

Opus131

08-03-2007, 10:20 PM

Yes, empathy is just an emotion. At the end of the day, emotions don't mean much. In fact, they can blind one to the truth and exasperate an already bad situation. The more empathy people would feel towards animals being hurt then the more hatred those people would feel towards the people hurting those animals. And with that hatred, they're likely to hurt those people! And then you could say that they have become worse than the people hurting the animals in the first place!

What is needed is not someone saying 'fighting Bulls is bad and I feel sorry for them' but to ask the question 'do we really need to keep on doing this?'. Does it have a beneficial effect on society or does it not? Does it conform to the higher ideals we are trying to reach or does it not? In a perfect society, things like this would not be stopped due to heavy protests and emotionally charged speeches. No, they would just be stopped because society as a whole outgrows them. The people would just drop the activity as a child would just suddenly drop watching Seasme Street. No inner conflict, no nothing. Just 'why do we keep doing this? Let's go off and paint a picture or whatever instead'.

Concise and to the point. Glad i'm not the only one who understands this.

DavoX

08-03-2007, 11:18 PM

Well he gave examples and a more understandable explanation instead of focusing on mumbo-jumbo and looking intelectual.

Commando Nukem

08-04-2007, 12:04 AM

Well he gave examples and a more understandable explanation instead of focusing on mumbo-jumbo and looking intelectual.

I dunno Davox. I understood Opus perfectly, and I agree with him.

Opus131

08-04-2007, 12:50 AM

Well he gave examples and a more understandable explanation instead of focusing on mumbo-jumbo and looking intelectual.

It's regretful that you see it that way, but i'll have you know that as much as i try i simply cannot express myself in any other manner then this. I think it has something to do with being a right brain + some form of inattentive ADD. My mind doesn't work by acquiring or formulating ideas in a matter of course like that of most people (who for the most part tend to express each other in a similar manner), it constantly flutters about this or that piece of data, picking small fragments here, generally moving by instinct, until it locks into some sort of logical leap or 'brake trough'. A new type of understanding is then formed and i can almost feel something snap into my brain in response. It's almost like composing music.

The problem is that because all my thoughts are thus formulated it means all my ideas are now pertaining to myself alone, and my way of understanding things has no real parallel in the language used in every day discourse. In order to communicate my thoughts i have to improvise certain forms of expressions that convey not only the idea but also the feeling and tonal dimension of the things that i'm trying to 'externalize', because this is the way they inhabit my mind. Sadly, i don't think i have the right vocabulary (nor the IQ, probably) to be coining new forms of expression and 'talk in music' every time i have to say something.

I've been tagging along this forums for years and this is how i always expressed myself. Often times i just spend exorbitant amounts of time editing my posts over and over until i get the right sound out of each phrase, and i'm always unsatisfied with the results, which is why i rarely engage in lengthy diatribes if i can help it.

thefly

08-04-2007, 02:51 AM

You are a sad sack who has trouble communicating with people in any form. Easy enough to understand.

Higher Game

08-04-2007, 05:27 AM

Man, the way some of you guys are attacking Opus makes you all look like trolls and he the only reasonable person here...

Read some Hemingway if you don't "get" bullfighting. It's a work of violent art the way mixed martial arts is, which the liberals branded "human cockfighting". First of all, what's wrong with consenting humans agreeing to a duel? Second of all, what's wrong with cockfighting? :D

EDIT: Hemingway was already mentioned, and I forgot to say to read The Sun Also Rises, specifically. That book has a great section on bullfighting, but it's also about how WWI affected peoples' minds. Check it out.

Dave-ros

08-04-2007, 05:38 AM

Well, we all like violent stories, but that's the point -- they're stories! I think we'd all be fed up by now if we had to spend every day fighting for our lives...

Also, I don't think anyone's really been trolling Opus (except maybe thefly), just disagreeing with him -- though oddly his reference to making his prose work on a "musical" level makes a kind of sense to me... but obviously that has nothing to do with the running of the bulls ;)

Kalki

08-04-2007, 07:15 AM

I don't see it that way. Empathy for me is nothing but mere emotionalism, nothing more. It's acting upon one's feelings rather then one's mind, eschewing all your reasoning powers and defining your thoughts according to what your heart tells you at any given moment. This can only lead to irrational and ineffective knee jerk reactions to problems that occupy a specific and concrete space in the real world and have no relation to your personal and highly subjective feelings.
Not necessarily. Your feelings don't have to be what drive you at all. Empathy can get you to understand and enter another persons feelings but those feelings can be grasped through rational thought and analyzed intellectually. Empathizing is an act, not an emotion by itself. You don't have to let those feelings sweep you away either. Feelings can be a low level guide to decision making, derived from instinctive interpretations that are hard wired into us but they need not overrule our cognitive process.

Think about it. What you are telling me here is that the reason why so many atrocities are committed in the world is because some people just haven't learned to feel sorry enough about the sufferings of others, and if we really teach everybody to be more in touch with their feelings then we wouldn't have so many problems. A bit naive perhaps?
"Feeling" sorry for anyone doesn't come into it. It's how you feel/think about this happening to yourself and would apply to whatever your perception of an acceptable world is.

Also, never, ever equate the suffering of animals to that of humans, even if you feel bad all the same.
No, i'm saying it doesn't matter that they feel anything: they are animals. Their pain, given that they were actually aware of it in a human sense (they don't) does not belong to the same moral dimension we normally apply to ourselves.

This is all due the fact we are self aware creatures, and unlike animals, we are fully aware of our own mortality, as well. For an animal, pain is a mere impulse, a simple neurological device with no further implications other then the basic function of warning the brain of bodily arm.

With a human, we enter an infinitely more complex dimension where pain assumes deep psychological and existentialistic connotations.

Inflicting pain to an animal can be cruel, for a human, it's also immoral. Indeed, here, as in all things, right and wrong has to be determined on a concrete moral basis that exists in abstract, completely independent from all subjective feelings and ideas. Can you see what i'm getting at?
But trying to portray human psychology as being more highly complex than animals is where the downslide begins really. Are you sure all the facts about animal awareness are in to be able to undermine them so easily? Because facts continue to emerge about chimpanzee society that should give you pause really. And group behavior in several species: dolphins, elephants, etc. suggest that they are as aware of their mortality and prone to psychological scarring as we are. Ever see elephants caress the bones of a long dead family member? Can you authoritatively claim to know what's going on in those brains because there are many experts out there who aren't too sure.

Not that I see how a compounded awareness of mortality is any greater justification for avoiding pain. Animals may well feel pain in worse ways than we do.

Dave-ros

08-04-2007, 08:37 AM

It's one thing not to care, but it's quite another to assume caring is irrelevant and that anyone who does is a half-wit or an intellectual lightweight (or, dare I say, a "liberal" with negative emphasis). After all, I've read that, because Man is a social animal, group fitness is important, hence things like altruism and compassion -- it's because we're stronger as a cohesive unit than as a lot of quarreling individuals. Obviously the real problems come when these units fight each other...

Obviously emotions can get in the way and cloud judgement, but if humans never dreamed of things getting better (however ludicrous those dreams might be), would anything ever get better, or would people just be content with their lot?

I think Opus just has a practical, realist view of the world -- I'm not sure if I should envy or pity him for it. Being an intelligent realist can be a curse :(

DavoX

08-04-2007, 12:36 PM

It's regretful that you see it that way, but i'll have you know that as much as i try i simply cannot express myself in any other manner then this. I think it has something to do with being a right brain + some form of inattentive ADD. My mind doesn't work by acquiring or formulating ideas in a matter of course like that of most people (who for the most part tend to express each other in a similar manner), it constantly flutters about this or that piece of data, picking small fragments here, generally moving by instinct, until it locks into some sort of logical leap or 'brake trough'. A new type of understanding is then formed and i can almost feel something snap into my brain in response. It's almost like composing music.

The problem is that because all my thoughts are thus formulated it means all my ideas are now pertaining to myself alone, and my way of understanding things has no real parallel in the language used in every day discourse. In order to communicate my thoughts i have to improvise certain forms of expressions that convey not only the idea but also the feeling and tonal dimension of the things that i'm trying to 'externalize', because this is the way they inhabit my mind. Sadly, i don't think i have the right vocabulary (nor the IQ, probably) to be coining new forms of expression and 'talk in music' every time i have to say something.

I've been tagging along this forums for years and this is how i always expressed myself. Often times i just spend exorbitant amounts of time editing my posts over and over until i get the right sound out of each phrase, and i'm always unsatisfied with the results, which is why i rarely engage in lengthy diatribes if i can help it.

Must be pretty lonely down there.

You can always write a book or something. Instead of wasting that "music composing" on a forum. Just my opinion of course.

phreak

08-04-2007, 10:38 PM

Please refrain from using Ad Hominem fallacies, it makes the thread a pain to read. Also, asking for clarification of statement >>> complaining that statement is unclear.

LeadBullet

08-04-2007, 11:40 PM

I'm honestly not trying to insult you here, but what did you think they did with the bulls? Seriously, I'm curious.

When I was younger before I learned what they really did, I assumed what they did as mostly teasing it and other stuff, kind of like the lion tamer guys. I thought it was just some elaborate display of agility and bravery and not a Liberace impersonator stabbing a bull to death and pretending to be brave even though the bull has been drugged, and its eyes covered in Vaseline so it can't see properly.

Dave-ros

08-05-2007, 12:39 PM

the bull has been drugged, and its eyes covered in Vaseline so it can't see properly.
Ecch, that's even worse :mad:

On the other hand, one wonders if there are any statistics about violent crime in Spain/Mexico, and whether it's gone up as bullfighting (and other macho sports involving cruelty to animals) has gone down. As Opus would probably agree, humans have needs for certain negative things (it's just the way we're wired), and not having a "harmless" outlet can lead to it being done to other humans -- and as goody-goody liberal as I am, I still acknowledge that cruelty to humans is worse than cruelty to animals.

I am aware that this is sounding a bit Fight Club ;)

wayskobfssae

08-05-2007, 11:37 PM

Opus maybe I'm misinterpreting something but you say "listen to your mind, and not your feelings" but also seem to the type who sees all life as little more than machines... random neurons firing and chemicals pumping, etc, so I'm a little confused by this. You seem to separate the two but also don't seem like the type who would see emotions as anything other than a product of the brain.

peoplessi

08-06-2007, 03:47 PM

So why would people get out in front of these things? To an extent I understand why bullfighters do this - it's a bit more professional (somewhat) than your average flunkie running down a street in Spain being chased by a rather irritated large animal.

I don't "get" either one of those, neither one is sport. Neither one is entertaiment at my standards. They are more of a old tradition, even if stupid ones. Slaying animals for fun isn't "fun" or entertaining in anyway.

Ellolo17

09-05-2007, 12:37 PM

So why would people get out in front of these things? To an extent I understand why bullfighters do this - it's a bit more professional (somewhat) than your average flunkie running down a street in Spain being chased by a rather irritated large animal.

Ok, I'm from Spain, let me talk about this:

In Spain the farmers, centurys ago, kept the cows (and bulls) in his farmyard wich was in his house, in the middle of the forest or (more usual) in the middle of a town.

The animals were moved almost daily to the nearby forest to eat. And if you haven't ever tryed to move a cow, you have to scare them. That was something that a group of people made. But just think someone gets in front of the animals whle they are running from the farmers. I've a farm for the weekends and i know how it is because more than 1 time i have running from them.

Well, for the saint's fiesta of that village, one year one guy thought: "hey, lets simulate this, but taking care for dont get hurt", and so they did, and people from other villages heard about that and copy the "tradition".

--------------------------
That's more or less how it began. In Spain there are 2 kinds of "bull running":

In one of them, like the pamplona's one, the people runs from the bulls until the bullring. Thats the one of that photo.

The other one is like this: www.masiapelarda.com/ spa/item/ART00065.html
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lbDVwclw_-M

The bull is set free to go wherever he wants with some docile bulls(sometimes). And the people go by foot, by car, horse, truck, etc... trying to wear them again to the bullring. This is more tipical in the villages (and i think its cooler and safer). If 5 hours have passed and the bull isnt in the bullring, the police has to drug the bull and take him to the bullring

After get the bull there, the people of the village "plays" with him for 1 hour or so, then he is caged again until the next day, when the bull is bullfighted.

The kind of bullfight depends of the village and his mayor. It can be "rejoneo"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YIt28AltHo8
Another is the show called "bombero torero" (firefighter bullfighter). with dwarfs and clowns playing football, making jokes and bullfighting a little bull.
Also, there is what we call "recortes" http://youtube.com/watch?v=fIN6dDJQ56I
And finally, there is the tipical bullfigthing.

Well. In Spain (at least, what i know) there is a law which says that the bull cant exit alive from the bullring.

If he isnt killed by bullfighting, it is killed later by the butcher. That night, the bull is made stew and eated by the village people.
----------------

Well, why people run in front of the bull?
1- They are drunk.
2- They want some action
3- they dont know how it is and run some metters while the bulls are kept.
4- they are the bulls owners, so they run, but behind the bulls with some sticks to make the bulls run.
5- They are foreigner or tourists and want to try some. Also they are drunk and are the most usual caught ones.
6- They are from the village and its party time. They are also drunk but they know they have to get out the way of the bulls. The group 5 dont.
7- They have tried puenting, rafting, bungee jump or other xtreme sports and want new experiences.
etc etc etc...

I like more the other with vehicles. As i said, i have a farm with hundreds of cows, 6 bulls, and all that stuff, and twice a year we have to make a veterinarian check. We have to get all my animals to a kind of bullring, like this:
http://www.cacahuatepec.gob.mx/work/resources/LocalContent/11806/1/CORRAL%20DE%20TOROS.JPG and we have to get inside and make them go though a corridor, and as i said, more than 1 time i had to run from them. So i dont need to run for fun.

The show of bulls that i like most is "rejoneo", followed by "recortes", then "bombero torero", and the worst the bullfighting. But many people here says, "i dont like bullfighting, its cruel..." But someday they go to se in the bullring a real bullfight and then say: "Ok, its still cruel, but its...beautiful. I cryed when they killed the 1º bull".

Ok, About kill the bull. I dont like that. But the bull is still going to be killed and eated later. And by centurys it has been like that, so i dont mind if they do that in the bullring or wherever the people cant see that.

Vaseline in the bulls eye, drugs, less horns... Those are lies. The bull is caged in a big room where people cant enter to put vaseline in its eyes. Drugs? then the bull cant fight (and i know because we tried that to a brave cow that had an ill calf and dont let us get close to heal it). The horns are not limed, the proof is that if it touches the bullfighter, he is injured.

Well. I'm speaking abut what happens in the towns and villages. in the great bullrings like Madrid, Valencia, Zaragoza, etc... are unkown to me.

And i can tell a lot more about this. But i've been writing this for hours... If you need more info send me a private message and i will share my knowledge