How much can the Bulid engine take?

[Blue Lightning]

This may seem liek a noob question, and since my knowledge of code is limited it may well be. But I was wondering if there are limits to what the Build engine can take, via upgrading the models, poly count, etc. Are their limts? Or can you keep upgrading limitless?

[Sang]

There are limits - you can't keep upgrading limitless. What those limits are, though, I dunno. You'd have to ask a programming-savvy guy :)

[DeeperThought]

Just tell him you can keep upgrading limitless. That will make his day.

[Tea Monster]

You can have a Queen model with 50,000 polys yes, but your processor and graphics card will implode.

[Blue Lightning]

Not my GPU and processer ;)

I asked because I understand that the team can upgrade the great looking models they have already incorporated, so the poly counts can grow higher and higher as time goes on...mabey to a point one day of "photo-realism"...like the game "Crysis" is. Can the code in the Build engine handle that?

[Daedolon]

There's no graphical filters in the BUILD engine such as there are in the Crysis engine which makes the game look "photo-realistic". Sure, if you have the knowledge, you could grab the BUILD source code and do it yourself, but ...

[Roma Loom]

Actually I'm already having problems on some user maps due to the huge polycount. We don't have LOD system and putting for instance dynamic light into the engine will bring most of the rigs to their knees methinks.

[Sang]

mabey to a point one day of "photo-realism"...like the game "Crysis" is.

Ain't gonna happen. :tinyted:

[Blue Lightning]

Photo-realistic Duke 3D? No?

I understand that the Crytek engine is specially made for photo-realism, whereas BUILD was not. However I wouldn't dismiss anything...

If 3 years ago I was told that DN3D was going to get ported to XP win-32, have remade models and textures, WASD and Mouse and when you look upwards the verticle distance paramiters thingy would even be fixed (even tho there is now a hall of mirrors), I would of said..."Nah". But TerminX and the HRP team did do it.

Anything is possible ;)

[Mr.Fibbles]

I can see dynamic lighting and maybe some more particle work, but anything more would be more work that it is worth, IMHO. Even those are proving to be a hassle not entirely worth it.
Right now, I think there should just be a focus of getting support for things like avi and ogg.

[DeeperThought]

I can see dynamic lighting and maybe some more particle work, but anything more would be more work that it is worth, IMHO. Even those are proving to be a hassle not entirely worth it.
Right now, I think there should just be a focus of getting support for things like avi and ogg.

I'm not even sure if the music support is worth it. It would add 5+ MB to all the new maps, as everyone would insist on including their favorite music, which we already have the option of playing in the background anyway using different software.

[Mr.Fibbles]

Thats true. Just run Winamp or iTunes in the background. I am thinking of higher quality sounds though. or at least JAud which is WIP and perhaps in development hell. Although, arguably, there isn't much to improve on the music side. I can't see what is so "low quality" about the sound/music in Duke.
I really don't care about graphics that much; I mean, I'll set the graphics as high as I can, but it doesn't make or break a game. So, it doesn't matter as much to me what they get working, if it works, great I'll use it, but if not, so what, go play something else pretty.

[Quakis]

Deeper hit the hammer on the nail about the music support, that's exactly my worry about it being added.

I asked because I understand that the team can upgrade the great looking models they have already incorporated, so the poly counts can grow higher and higher as time goes on...mabey to a point one day of "photo-realism"...like the game "Crysis" is. Can the code in the Build engine handle that?

I don't see the point in that, just move to an engine that already has all those special features.

[Jblade]

I'm not even sure if the music support is worth it. It would add 5+ MB to all the new maps, as everyone would insist on including their favorite music, which we already have the option of playing in the background anyway using different software.
Uh, what? I don't want to be stuck with shitty midis when I'm trying to make a serious TC for Duke here. Yes maybe some idiot will include twenty megadeth songs with their map but to say that it's not worth adding because of that is even more ridiculous.

[Reaper_Man]

Yeah I agree, plus having the much smaller MP3s as sound files instead of WAVs or VOCs would be nice too. If some moron wants to include a ton of custom music, then it is just as easy to not download it. Plus I am sure it would be some sort of copyright violation (in Jblade's example). ;)

[DeeperThought]

Uh, what? I don't want to be stuck with shitty midis when I'm trying to make a serious TC for Duke here. Yes maybe some idiot will include twenty megadeth songs with their map but to say that it's not worth adding because of that is even more ridiculous.

Music for TCs is a decent reason for wanting mp3/ogg support, but I think you're overstating it. Music is a non-essential feature that many people turn off anyway. But this is moot because AFAIK the feature has already been planned and nothing we say here will change that.

[DavoX]

Music is needed for TC's. Sometimes a mapper wants a certain music at a certain spot and mp3 would be great for it.

[DeeperThought]

Music is needed for TC's. Sometimes a mapper wants a certain music at a certain spot and mp3 would be great for it.

Hey, why don't we all make a deal with TerminX? As soon as someone actually finishes a TC (incomplete or demo releases don't count), he'll add the music support. Until then, we all STFU about it.

[TerminX]

Haha, yeah... show me a TC that's actually near completion that also requires something like mp3 support, and maybe I'll take a bit of time away from my real job and do it. :p

[Jblade]

Music for TCs is a decent reason for wanting mp3/ogg support, but I think you're overstating it. Music is a non-essential feature that many people turn off anyway. But this is moot because AFAIK the feature has already been planned and nothing we say here will change that.
I don't think I am overstating it. Having high quality music is incredibly important to improving atmosphere and things like that - what's the point of coding models, glowmaps, detail textures and things like that when we're still running around with BLEEP-BLEEP-BLOOP-BLOOP music blaring out?

[Blue Lightning]

I don't think I am overstating it. Having high quality music is incredibly important to improving atmosphere and things like that - what's the point of coding models, glowmaps, detail textures and things like that when we're still running around with BLEEP-BLEEP-BLOOP-BLOOP music blaring out?

I think the "BLEEP-BLEEP-BLOOP-BLOOP" music is classic and I enjoy it. Adding in hard-rock ruins the original feel. And if you listen to music in video games just pryor to DN3D, it was mostly arcade like, and real BLEEP-BLEEP BLOOP BLOOP music (like ROTT), unlike DN3D music which was higher quality than "arcade music", which is what your talking about.

Take level 208, "Dark Side". The song "Dark" that is featured in that map is creepy, and gives a good feel to the level in my opinion. That's just one example. The first level "Hollywood Holocaust" is another good example. My point is that I think the HRP team is on the right track by leaving the music alone, and going after the graphics. :)

[Jblade]

Who said anything about hard rock? I sure didn't. Why does music = metal or rock music? Mark McWane's made high quality remakes of all the Duke tracks, and there's several high quality versions of Grabbag around as well.
My point is that I think the HRP team is on the right track by leaving the music alone, and going after the graphics.
They don't a choice to since Eduke32 doesn't support anything other than *.mid anyways. Besides, it's a contradiction. Changing all the sprites to models and making all texture high resolution gets rid of the 'classic' feeling anyways, so why keep the 'classic' music?

[Daedolon]

I really understand the point, neither huge MONAURAL wave files or midi music suffices for TCs like Survival.

[DeeperThought]

You guys are ignoring my last post, as well as TerminX's. I think he would feel a lot more enthusiastic about adding the music support if the people who wanted it so badly were ready or nearly ready to release the projects that required it.

People working on their TCs may believe that they will finish them, but the track record of such projects, especially in the last few years, gives reason for skepticism. It's pretty annoying to spend time coding features for something that never gets released. It makes you feel like a chump who is wasting his time.

[Jblade]

I didn't ignore it - MP3/OGG support can also be used to play normal Duke with high quality music as well, which I'm sure many people wish to do. I would like to be able to do that myself, but to do that I'd have to put up with the Rancidmeat port which just doesn't run anywhere near as smoothly as JfDuke or Eduke32.

[Blue Lightning]

Not to get off subject, but is there a code I can type to give me any midi song I want when I'm playing? Like if I'm on level 308, can I type DNmusic102 or something to give the song from level 102? I remember DooM had that...

[Jblade]

You can't change to it directly, but if you press shift+F5 you can cycle through Duke's music till you get to the one you want. It resets every time you load a save game though.

[Blue Lightning]

Sorry, but shift + F5 doesn't do anything.

[Steve]

Sorry, but shift + F5 doesn't do anything.

I think you press F5 first then on shift then press F5 again ... something like that.

[Usurper]

http://wiki.eduke32.com/wiki/Starttrack

[Blue Lightning]

Thanks anyway, but none of that works. Whoever wrote that stuff in Wiki doesn't know, becasue those methods do not work at all. Perhaps you cannot change the music in DN3D levels.

[TerminX]

Thanks anyway, but none of that works. Whoever wrote that stuff in Wiki doesn't know, becasue those methods do not work at all. Perhaps you cannot change the music in DN3D levels.
That wiki entry references CON code, not crap for newbies to type into the console in-game. Duh. You can either change it in the CON files using the information from the wiki, or you can use the F5 followed by shift-F5 method mentioned earlier in the thread. Both methods work fine.

[Blue Lightning]

Newb? Are you kidding me? I just finished writing 3 levels of Bioshock!... (j/k ;))

Honestly, the F5 then shift+F5 method is not working, at least not for me. Mabey it's because I have 1.3 regestered, and not Atomic (though I doubt that has anything to do with it). Anyway, it's not a big deal.

Thanks for trying.

[Reaper_Man]

It's pretty annoying to spend time coding features for something that never gets released. It makes you feel like a chump who is wasting his time.

Talk about preaching to the choir...

[TerminX]

Newb? Are you kidding me? I just finished writing 3 levels of Bioshock!... (j/k ;))

Honestly, the F5 then shift+F5 method is not working, at least not for me. Mabey it's because I have 1.3 regestered, and not Atomic (though I doubt that has anything to do with it). Anyway, it's not a big deal.

Thanks for trying.
Sounds like you have messages disabled in the game...

[Sang]

Maybe he's pressing the buttons incorrectly. Like holding F5 and then bashing away at the shift button which isn't quite how to do it IIRC.

[Blue Lightning]

They don't a choice to since Eduke32 doesn't support anything other than *.mid anyways. Besides, it's a contradiction. Changing all the sprites to models and making all texture high resolution gets rid of the 'classic' feeling anyways, so why keep the 'classic' music?

Because good music, like a painting, is timeless. But lousy graphics are not. Dukes graphics (which were good for 1996, but still far from reasonable) were far behind it's music IMO. That's because any music can be made or recorded, and then looped in DN3D. But graphics and models were only as good as GPU's and devs knowlege would ALLOW in 1996.

[Reaper_Man]

In 1996 there wasn't such a thing as a graphics processor. The first generation came out in 97 I believe. Just FYI. ;)

[Blue Lightning]

In 1996 there wasn't such a thing as a graphics processor. The first generation came out in 97 I believe. Just FYI. ;)

I think there was a little video card built into each MOBO in 1996 (and before) if I am not mistaken. VGA or something I can't really remember, but you had to have somekind of video processer even back then...I mean RAM alone cannot display a video you know.

I think it was like 200 Kilobytes vid RAM or something wasn't it? I remember in 1998 an I.T. guy at work saw my new windows 95 compouter and was "wowed" by the fact it had a half a meg of video RAM! He was like, "wow, you can run anything on this baby" LOLzlolol ! :D

[Tea Monster]

Yeah, they had 1mb video cards. 3D acceleration came out about then (96 or 97). I had an S3 4MB video card in my P1 system and I thought I was playing with fire :dopefish::doh:.

Models were used extensively for Duke 3D, but they were sprites taken from multiple renders of a model. The models themselves were not used directly in the game. Games started to use Voxels around that time, but Duke didn't. Models didn't really take off till Quake 1, and IMHO they sucked. Even at the time, everyone was raving about "REAL 3D" but I just thought they looked very blocky and the skins were very pixellated.

[Hellbound]

But when I killed the guy in Q1, I could walk around him while watching my artofkill and those bodies didn't change their angle to always facing me... that WAS cool for me at the time ;)

[Tea Monster]

That was true, but I had some difficulty before that part with "OMG, I'm being attacked by a parallelogram!" :D

[Hendricks266]

Whoever wrote that stuff in Wiki doesn't know, becasue those methods do not work at all.

How insulting. Starttrack does work—from CON code, not the console.

Sounds like you have messages disabled in the game...

So, Blue Lightning:

Step 1: Press F8.
Step 2: Press F5.
Step 3: While the message is still displaying on the screen, press Shift+F5.

[Blue Lightning]

Step 1: Press F8.
Step 2: Press F5.
Step 3: While the message is still displaying on the screen, press Shift+F5.

Pressing F8 didn't do it, but pressing "F Lock" (and mabey F11 too) seemed to, because after that I was able to use the F5 then Shift + F5 command.

Thanks for your helps. :)

[Dopefish7590]

^^^^^
lol, isnt f8 suppost to turn on messages?

[C. M. Dratz]

Hey Tea,
I had a 4MB S3 in my pentium90 in 1994 and felt the same way. I remember that nvidia came out with their first 3d accelerator in 1995 called the NV1. The graphics card was capable of rendering "curved polygons" or quadratic surfaces and unfortunately slowed down 3d programs versus cpu rendering, attributable, I suppose, to the lack of software developer support. They also used the chip on the Sega Saturn.

[Commando Nukem]

I'm not even sure if the music support is worth it. It would add 5+ MB to all the new maps, as everyone would insist on including their favorite music, which we already have the option of playing in the background anyway using different software.

It is worth it, I need ogg for my mod so that I can have my ambient tracks included, not to mention HIGH QUALITY SOUND EFFECTS. Which should be just as important as the look of the game.


Hey, why don't we all make a deal with TerminX? As soon as someone actually finishes a TC (incomplete or demo releases don't count), he'll add the music support. Until then, we all STFU about it.

Hey, why don't we not tell people to STFU? A lot of mods aren't completed because they know they can't even effect their full potential because a huge chuck of build is still stuck in the stonage, namely the music. If the sound quality was no longer a problem several mods would kick back into production, and their would be more soundpack and texture pack mods then you could shake a stick at. I'd love it if Duke3D could die a very active community when DNF comes out, and its ESSENTIAL to upgrade every aspect of the game engine, especially in a game where you have the sounds of planes, explosions and screams in the distance.... Imagine how good the Starship Troopers TC could be made to look and sound with high quality textures,models AND sounds? Or classic Duke 3D with full stereo OGG files for music, and the monsters?

Hell, i've even been dabbling with making a few higher quality sounds for the weapons in Duke3D, trouble is, its a waste of my damn time until the game supports ogg files, at least.

[DeeperThought]

If you're angry about the lack of MP3/OGG support, don't blame me. The feature is in development, it will be ready sooner or later, and I have absolutely nothing to do with it and no control over it any more than you do.

By the way, I did not tell anyone to STFU. I made a half-serious suggestion that mod developers make a deal with TerminX, and the terms of the deal would be: we would stop complaining about the lack of MP3/OGG support (i.e. "STFU"), and in exchange he would promise to implement it as soon as a TC was pretty much finished except for the sound.

What's funny is, TerminX actually seemed open to that idea, but instead of taking him up on it, you and others have criticized me instead. It doesn't bother me but it does seem pretty dumb.

[Mr. Pink]

Heh - OGG/MP3 is on down the list as far as I can tell.

@CM: I really do think that most everyone cares more about improvement of the other stuff in the game. DN3D was known for its gameplay more than the audio quality to begin with anyhow. I personally think the sounds are adequate for the present, and I'm an audio kind of guy. I also think that it will be damn tough to recreate all the SFX in higher res audio quality and I won't go into the reasons. Also - what mods are you referring to? Ones that consider the audio issue to be a show stopper, to be precise?

Anyone who's creating new sounds can put them in the native DN3D format, but preserve them in OGG/MP3/whatever for the future. Food for thought.

[Commando Nukem]

@CM: I really do think that most everyone cares more about improvement of the other stuff in the game. DN3D was known for its gameplay more than the audio quality to begin with anyhow. I personally think the sounds are adequate for the present, and I'm an audio kind of guy. I also think that it will be damn tough to recreate all the SFX in higher res audio quality and I won't go into the reasons. Also - what mods are you referring to? Ones that consider the audio issue to be a show stopper, to be precise?

Anyone who's creating new sounds can put them in the native DN3D format, but preserve them in OGG/MP3/whatever for the future. Food for thought.

Like what? We've got high res graphics, we've got the abbillity to alter the code like never before (This covers,gameplay and graphics moreover.) the only major aspect of the game that remains stagnant aside from the network code (Something which, regardless of audio quality will take time, and it makes more sense to get the quick and easy things in first so they are out of the way.) Why its such an uphill battle to get this hooked in is beyond me. I mean there are dozens of quake engines that have the capacity for higher sound quality, why can't duke have the same? Make Eduke32 the ultimate port by having every aspect suspect to the highest quality possible.

Heck, even the things that are "really" wanted on the wishlist, like dynamic lighting, and visual weapons for Multiplayer require engines changes. This requires an adjustment of the engine code to read and playback MP3(Or more likely OGG which would take maybe a day or two to implement for someone who has experience and knows the Duke source).

We already have MP3s and OGG files for the music, its basically the only thing Eduke can't do at this point.

How would it be so hard? I already have a new pistol sound that sounds really close to the original, but its much higher quality. It wouldn't take too much work to pull sounds off the net, or from free for use audio cds and do some editing to create a new library of sounds at higher quality. I even have a high quality MP3 file that has stock grunts and groans that are used by the pigcops(they were not originaly FOR the pig cops, but its the same sound, just at CD quality.)

The point is that by comparison this is a ridiculously easy (for someone who has a knowledge in code, theres a reason OGG is essentially plug and go) thing to plug in, and for no reason other then its "non essential" (Then again so are graphics, if you can handle 22050 khz monoral, why can't you handle 256 color pallete sprites? Its twisted logic.)

[TerminX]

There's no support for modern audio file formats because JonoF is supposed to be coming up with something and I don't want to waste time writing it myself when whatever he comes up with is going to be better than my effort would be anyway.

[Dead Chief]

Well, JonoF doesn't seem to be doing anything at this moment also, when was his last update? ;)

[Hudson]

Is JFAud even coming out?

[Mr.Fibbles]

Jonof has a life; you know something not everyone on these boards seems to have.

OK, sorry about that last comment; but there are other things in the world besides games (especially more than Duke 3D).
Here on these boards especially, we should be used to the phrase When Its Done. So JFAud will be out :wid:

[Dead Chief]

We know he has a life, we have all the right to give our opinions and that doesn't mean we don't have a life, that's pretty stupid.

I'm only saying that if you're not working on something, or going to in A RECENT TIME, then just say so, don't leave everyone hanging and let other people take the task or give the source code to another programmer.

[Mr. Pink]

@cm/deadchief: Again what mods are pending upgraded audio code? And exactly why should better sound be significantly raised in priority by the group? And - MORE TO THE POINT - by what means is the source exclusive to any one person? CM if you think you can do it in a couple of days then just do it (it sounds like you can). I'd definitely like to hear top-notch sound, someday.

If you guys can contribute constructive commentary, or (better) POC code, or (best) working & tested & well-performing code, then great. Posting lengthy argumentative grandstanding or a bunch of content-bereft posts just wastes everybody's bandwidth. It sure doesn't sway minds towards shuffling the general priority.

Anyhow I'm 110% behind WID. Terminx knows why (I'm slowly making progress, TX!)

This whole effort is not a job and nobody is telling anybody what to do and when to do it. Desire to contribute, as well as the pride of accomplishment, is what is working here.

ED: if someone reading this is on a bona-fide mod team, you might have someone on that team who would be able/willing to add hi-res sound support to the code. The sooner it is added, the better it would be tested, prior to your mod being released to the general public.

[Dead Chief]

So in all the classic response is "Do it yourself" That's really nice.

I really think stuff like visual and audio stuff should be top priority, the online duke community is non-existant and I really don't know why people are bothering with the network code, give us something that is actually usable for good!. ;). (No, I won't do it myself, as I know nothing about coding, but I guess that if I start learning today I might deliver it before anyone else, if you catch my drift).

[Commando Nukem]

@cm/deadchief: Again what mods are pending upgraded audio code? And exactly why should better sound be significantly raised in priority by the group? And - MORE TO THE POINT - by what means is the source exclusive to any one person? CM if you think you can do it in a couple of days then just do it (it sounds like you can). I'd definitely like to hear top-notch sound, someday.

If you guys can contribute constructive commentary, or (better) POC code, or (best) working & tested & well-performing code, then great. Posting lengthy argumentative grandstanding or a bunch of content-bereft posts just wastes everybody's bandwidth. It sure doesn't sway minds towards shuffling the general priority.

Anyhow I'm 110% behind WID. Terminx knows why (I'm slowly making progress, TX!)

This whole effort is not a job and nobody is telling anybody what to do and when to do it. Desire to contribute, as well as the pride of accomplishment, is what is working here.

ED: if someone reading this is on a bona-fide mod team, you might have someone on that team who would be able/willing to add hi-res sound support to the code. The sooner it is added, the better it would be tested, prior to your mod being released to the general public.

What mods were pending graphics upgrades? Thats ridiculous. Just because a few of us are making the request it be added, or that it at least be done up so that we can start upgrading that part of Duke 3D (and I garentee if the code gets done i'll be releasing sounds for vanilla Duke.)

I know how code works and how OGG VORBIS is added, but I am not up on the actual LANGUAGE. This is why its frustrating. I am not a code person, I can do various graphic work, I can do sound, I can do mapping generally.

Look, if im asking for too much then thats a little ludicris considering the HRP and Eduke32 as a whole anyway, I know its not that hard, and to be honest I think JONOFS life has consumed him. Hes almost never on and JFDuke hasn't been updated recently in any considerable way. So if you intend to wait indefinatly until the community dies, then so be it. Im asking terminX to consider implementing something now, and if Jonof does come up with something you just back off the sound code and let his take over.

If its too much to ask for, then okay, whatever. Im not making demands or being inflamatory, it just seems ridiculous to put such a low brow opinion on something that is a very integral part of the game (Gun Sounds, Explosions, Monsters, Ambience, Music, Switches.) The only kind of sound that I think we aren't really allowed to "upgrade" is DUKEs voice.

[Mr. Pink]

Not lowbrow, just simply of a lower priority than graphics in general. I've been asking about mods because if there are ones out there that are putting high expectations on improved audio in the near future, it would be great to know because as pointed out previously it would add fuel to the HQ audio fire.

That said: I'll take a look at the sound code, just in case I can help there somehow. This will be while taking breaks from my pitiful attempts at upgrading the networking code.

I do know a bit about integration, and I really want to contribute something useful to eDuke32. No promises, not even a WID. Will discuss that in a fresh thread - this has been OT for awhile.

[DeeperThought]

So if you intend to wait indefinatly until the community dies

Speaking of which, if we're going to be concerned about that, then let's all try to be more supportive of the people who contribute to keeping the community alive. When someone releases or updates a map or mod, let's try to take a little time to check it out and post a few words about it. Obviously, we don't always have time to do that, but it does make a big difference when we do. Even negative comments are appreciated (if they are thoughtful and not just trolling) because they are evidence that someone cares.

Look at the response that recent map releases have gotten -- pitiful. This sends a message to mappers that people would rather B.S. about Duke quotes or whatever than actually play the game and try a new map. I know I am guilty of this myself at times, so I'm not pointing the finger at others. What I am saying is that we can do a lot better. If we want people to continue working on Duke projects, we need to fool them *cough *cough -- I mean convince them -- that what they are doing is worthwhile. And of course the same applies to development of EDuke32 itself.

[Dead Chief]

Exactly, after all one develops the maps thinking "Yeah people are going to like this when they play it" and then no one responds or anything, it sucks.

[Mr. Pink]

So in all the classic response is "Do it yourself" That's really nice.

I really think stuff like visual and audio stuff should be top priority, the online duke community is non-existant and I really don't know why people are bothering with the network code, give us something that is actually usable for good!. ;). (No, I won't do it myself, as I know nothing about coding, but I guess that if I start learning today I might deliver it before anyone else, if you catch my drift).

Nice and thanks for all the support. I guess you missed the point entirely :doh:

[Dead Chief]

I didn't miss the part where you wanted people to make give you the code or add support for hi-res sound themselves.

[Jblade]

Just because you don't use it doesn't mean there isn't demand for it. There's still people who play multiplayer so better netcode isn't a bad thing to do at all.

[Mr. Pink]

Thanks, JBlade! :) That's hitting the point right on the mark.

As stated before, if anyone desires (and is qualified) to help add sound support, you know where to find us.

[Dead Chief]

I missed the poll where it showed that there was more demand for netcode ;).

Seriously, without better visual features and better sound support, how is people going to come to play network? I mean come on, Dukester and all that is almost completely dead, you barely see anyone connected EVER.

[Mr. Pink]

DeadChief - it has all been said above you, so give it up and move on to something else, TIA. Please note that I've already raised the issue appropriately.

Anyhow, for everyone else interested, the networking enhancements that I'm involved with will be covered in a separate thread. I've decided that development will be held in a forum off-site, so that we can invite people that we want to be involved with testing and feedback. That's an important point - please IM me with your interest.

We have specific goals in mind for the functionality, and I think we have enough feedback to know where we are going to go with online DM. If anyone remembers TEN, and the golden days of Duke3D online, it will be even better. And - it will be free. In a lot of respects.

Also, anyone that wants to help with the sound code, and is qualified to offer assistance, please IM me and thanks!

[Searinox]

Does anyone believe the Build engine can take an upgrade to support true 3D architecture?

[Hendricks266]

Play SW shareware level 4. It has gotten an upgrade (although hackish).

[Cipher]

Hackish, but makes Build able to create any real-world construct with sectors.

... I think...

[Blue Lightning]

Speaking of which, if we're going to be concerned about that, then let's all try to be more supportive of the people who contribute to keeping the community alive. When someone releases or updates a map or mod, let's try to take a little time to check it out and post a few words about it. Obviously, we don't always have time to do that, but it does make a big difference when we do. Even negative comments are appreciated (if they are thoughtful and not just trolling) because they are evidence that someone cares.

Look at the response that recent map releases have gotten -- pitiful. This sends a message to mappers that people would rather B.S. about Duke quotes or whatever than actually play the game and try a new map. I know I am guilty of this myself at times, so I'm not pointing the finger at others. What I am saying is that we can do a lot better. If we want people to continue working on Duke projects, we need to fool them *cough *cough -- I mean convince them -- that what they are doing is worthwhile. And of course the same applies to development of EDuke32 itself.

Agreed, but a lot of people care about DN3D HRP project and map packs but just dont belong to the forum. Beleive me there are a lot of fans out there that do not make themselves known. I posted a thread on the Steam forums recently asking players to list their "top 5 PC games of all time". Of course I listed DN3D 2nd place with a healthy score of 98/100...Half Life 2 got first from me at 100/100 but it was close.

The point is that many players list DN3D in their top 5, and a few had it at number one or two which surprised me. A lot of players know about Duke even though the game was a long time ago? Yes...they remember because they get to play it now thanks to the HRP/Eduke project.

And I would love to try some new maps but I have no clue how to install. :(

[DeeperThought]

And I would love to try some new maps but I have no clue how to install. :(

If you're talking about single maps, there is nothing to install. Just start a new game, select the user map option and load it.

[Mr. Pink]

The only "installation" needed is to copy the .map file to your eduke folder. When the map is in that folder, it can be selected under the User Map option when starting a new game. Note that the original levels can be independently selected as well (these are being pulled from the duke3d.grp file).

It can get more complicated than that. Some of the user maps have additional art, and in some cases con files and installation scripts. In almost all cases, there's a readme file provided, which will (usually) give you the info you need to install that stuff as well. In those cases, it can get a little hairy ;)

In almost all cases, the map file is zipped. Usually the built-in Windows XP compressed folder feature will handle it just fine.

Here's a random example: download The Starlite Project (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/7733/starlite.zip), extract the .map file and copy it to your eduke directory. See if you can start up a game using that map.

BTW, that was found at Bob's Duke Nukem Single Player Levels (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/7733/) in the archive section. There are other good sites with lots of single player maps out there.

[Blue Lightning]

Ok thanks both of you, I'll try it.