Barry Bonds

[8IronBob]

After Hank Aaron's 755+ record of homeruns, do you feel that Barry Bonds will have what it takes to beat this? Remember that he just tied it recently, but do you think that before this season's over, that he will surpass it? If so, about how many more "out of the ballpark" hits do you think he will make? This seems like a very historic moment. Let's hear your thoughts about this. This is a guessing game thread, so post the number of homeruns that you feel he will hit from now until October comes around (if San Francisco makes it to playoffs). If not, then until the regular season is over.

[John]

Well he's already tied now.

[Hudson]

Yeah, roids are awesome :p

[John]

Hell yes they are, I type up to 230wpm when I take mine.

[Mr.Fibbles]

Barry Bonds
Homeruns that should count: 0
Homeruns hit with the help of performance enhancing drugs: 756
Breaking a record by cheating but no one cares: $172 Million dollars in 21 years (perhaps only half of them cheating)

Hank Aaron
Homeruns that count: 755
Homeruns hit with the help of performance enhancing drugs: 0
Setting a record with hard work and dedication: Priceless

He will probably get another 10 or so homeruns, but that doesn't mean he actually earned them.

[thefly]

An interesting article (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003621797) that talks about the impact of the arm "armor" Bonds wears and the possible ways it has aided him.

Current day players have so many advantages in terms of personal trainers, advances in medicines and rehab, dietitians, equipment, etc. over the players in Aaron's era that it doesn't seem fair to even compare the records.

But yeah, he'll hit a few more before the season is over.

[London_Midge]

Barry Bonds
Homeruns that should count: 0
Homeruns hit with the help of performance enhancing drugs: 756

Hank Aaron
Homeruns that count: 755
Homeruns hit with the help of performance enhancing drugs: 0


With all due respect, I'd like to see proof of any of those points, about either Aaron or Bonds. Do things looks bad for Barry? Well sure, but that's certainly not proof, and it doesn't take into account the fact that at the same Bonds was allegedly doing steroids, more than a few pitchers have been suspended for failing steroid tests, which means that if he was indeed hopped up, he was still facing hopped up pitchers and competing against other hopped up players. If you're going to wipe out one player's stats on assumption and accusation, you might as well erase the records for everyone for the last 50 years and start over from scratch.

Do I think Bonds has done steroids? Certainly, but I don't have any real proof of it since he's never failed a test and has not yet been suspended by MLB or convicted by any governing body. We are very unlikely to ever have any definitive proof that Bonds used anything, or, for that matter, proof that Aaron, Ruth, Mays, or anyone else did not. You can't erase records on conjecture.

Well, I guess unless you're Bud Selig and don't know what's best for your own sport.

[Mr.Fibbles]

Steroids were first identified in the 30's (found in 31 and synthesized in 34). Hank Aaron, during his 23 year Major League Baseball career, hit 755 home runs; all spread out. He averaged 32 homeruns a season and not only hit home runs, but also is noted for his outstanding hitting ability and consistency in bringing in runs. He currently holds the record for all time RBIs and extra base hits.
Babe Ruth had retired by the time Steroids were synthesized and in production; so the idea that he used performance enhancing drugs is ridiculous. He was more known for using arguably performance destroying substances. He also has a ridiculously high slugging percentage (.690) which is the all time record; Babe Ruth was also a pitcher and still holds pitching records.
After hitting 61 home runs in 1961, Maris began to decline due to injuries and in his 10 year MLB career, he hit a mere 275 home runs; but he was injured for the bulk of those last 5 years. He has a career 18.5 at bats per home runs.
In 1961 the American League added 2 teams and, as a result, added some games to the regular season. Roger Maris did not hit 61 home runs in the same number of games it took Babe Ruth.
Mark McGuire, by the time he was in the Majors, was consistently hitting about 50+ home runs a year. Whether or not he used steroids before signing for the A's is not known and he (and Bonds for that matter) said that they "[didn't] want to walk about the past" at the congress on the steroids and sluggers.
Barry Bond's personal trainer has been convicted of distributing Steroids and Barry was not a big slugger until only recently. He broke the single season home run record set by Mark McGuire (I would go into Sammy Sosa who also came out of nowhere in this category) after season after season of averaging like 35~45 home runs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Bonds#Career_statistics). Both Sammy Sosa and Barry Bonds were not big home run hitters until the home run race in the last few years. A statistician will tell you that those numbers don't look right and the ones abnormally high could be negated.
No amount of intense straight and unadulterated training will increase your muscle mass that much and for a single season at that.
However, because he has been playing for so long, it is possible that he has gotten this far because of his endurance but there are too many controversies surrounding Barry Bonds regarding substance abuse.

In regards to pitchers, well, the purity of Major League Baseball is compromised but what is there to do about it, I guess.

[Scream]

I think it's a little silly to compare modern day players to those of 50 years ago. The game is completely different now. Playing in either era had/has it's pros and cons to what you'd be able to accomplish.

That having been said, performance enhancing drugs are ruining professional sports of all kinds. Barry Bonds is just one example of many, and there are so many that we don't know about. We use sport as a way to teach our children some good solid values. That's gotten lost somewhere along the way.

[TBZ]

Well, in the future steroids will probably be mandatory, like in Futurama..

[Mudsling3]

That all depends on whether he will take another shoot before the next game?

[London_Midge]

Steroids were first identified in the 30's (found in 31 and synthesized in 34)... Babe Ruth had retired by the time Steroids were synthesized and in production; so the idea that he used performance enhancing drugs is ridiculous. Wikipedia should never seriously be used as a source for, well...anything at all, especially when you just copy and past random bits from it. However, just to be clear that it most certainly is NOT ridiculous to consider chemical enhancement in the pre-Bonds era, there were certainly chemical options in the early 1900s, such as ethylamphetamines as well as harvested HGH. They were shooting it into horses, and they were shooting into athletes. Juicing is most certainly nothing new.

Hank Aaron, during his 23 year Major League Baseball career, hit 755 home runs; all spread out. So did Bonds. He only broke 50 once, averaging about 34/year, but he broke 30 a total of 14 times, dating back to 17 years ago. Their career numbers are unsurprisingly similar

Barry was not a big slugger until only recently. Wait, what? Once again, over 30 home runs, over 14 times, dating back to 17 years ago. If those aren't slugger stats, what are?

A statistician will tell you that those numbers don't look right and the ones abnormally high could be negated.Err, they won't. Seriously, ask one. I worked with several and we were all baseball fans.
No amount of intense straight and unadulterated training will increase your muscle mass that much and for a single season at that. Really? What's his largest muscle mass percentage increase? Because I've never seen any verified numbers. I know he did gain quite a bit of weight before his 73 homer season, something like 15 or 20 pounds, but he also had (and still has) a fairly healthy gut. Plus, the average amount of muscle mass gained for a body builder is somewhere around 12lbs/year. Bonds is a professional athlete, and even before people suspected him of chemical assistance, he managed to stand out as exceptional in a field of professional athletes, so going above the average in muscle gain is in no way damning evidence of anything other than athleticism.

In regards to pitchers, well, the purity of Major League Baseball is compromised but what is there to do about it, I guess. Oh sure, and as I said, it IS my personal belief that Bonds is a damned dirty cheater, but there is not, at this point, any public evidence to prove that.

[thefly]

He was more known for using arguably performance destroying substances.

Steroids are performance destroying substances.

And really, it doesn't affect me personally what these pros do. My feathers get ruffled only over mistakes I make and those close to me make. Other than that, I don't care who makes how much money or screws who over or who hits a lot of home runs or whatever else.

"Leave me alone." -me

[Mr.Fibbles]

However, just to be clear that it most certainly is NOT ridiculous to consider chemical enhancement in the pre-Bonds era, there were certainly chemical options in the early 1900s, such as ethylamphetamines as well as harvested HGH. They were shooting it into horses, and they were shooting into athletes. Juicing is most certainly nothing new.

I was saying for Babe Ruth to have used Steroids would be ridiculous, he retired by the time they began using it for anything besides studies. As far as chemical enhancements, well it is nice that you have the concern to know about those things. The point is, Barry Bonds has a lot of controversy over his history with drugs.
I also said that his one time over 50 (the record breaking year) could be negated because it stands out as absurd, statistically. He did play for a long time and perhaps he isn't any more guilty than the rest of the Major League, but he comes out as having an attitude about the whole thing. Maybe this is the same thing as when Maris broke Ruth's record, no one wants to see Hank Aaron's record go down; but because of all the controversy around Barry and his "training" programs, there will be, or should be perhaps, an asterisks next to the record.

And Wikipedia is not a source, but when sources are listed besides the information, it can be used. Also, I don't care enough to look for anything more detailed than Wikipedia because what does chemical usage or Major League baseball players' lives have to do with me or life shattering, earth shaking events. Now if this was a discussion about something more important, I would take more time to find "reliable" sources.

[Nessus]

Steroids are performance destroying substances.



Really? That makes it even more amazing how the performance of athletes in the steroid era is so remarkable.

[Higher Game]

Steroids are EXTREMELY physically enhancing. Imagine the effects of creatine, beta-alanine, BCAAs, every fatty acid micronutrient you can think of, nootropic drugs, and stimulants, combined and multiplied by 10. Just compare an athlete from 50 years ago (excluding the Soviets) to the ones today. Training and a healthy diet just haven't changed much: the chemistry has. Today, the competition is so jacked up, you "have to cheat to compete".

You can't get caught, either, unless you're an absolute moron or a newbie. There are literally hundreds of different steroids and an even bigger number of possible combinations. Hell, the people getting caught are probably the newbies doing their first cycle; the hardcore steroid users know how to avoid a positive test.

The biggest thing about Bonds is his face. Besides muscles (obvious), steroids permanently expand the bones of the face. This partially explains Tito Ortiz, but some people are naturally thick headed. ;) Looking at how Bond's face/head has grown over the years, it's obvious that Bonds has been juicing for a long time, not just the "accidental" time he admitted to in the wake of the BALCO scandal.

Before the 70's, it was mostly Soviet athletes who juiced. In the 70's, bodybuilders discovered the power of steroids. It was really only until the 80's that athletes from all other sports started to catch on, and it was only in the 90's they were made illegal! The general public and politicians are simply clueless about steroids and there is so much ignorance about them. Idiots like Chris Benoit don't help things, either...

[Usurper]

Whether he doped or not (and it sounds like there's little doubt that he did), you gotta give him some credit. With the highest career walks of anyone who's ever played in the majors, he's obviously got a good eye for pitches. We can be sure he'd be an outstanding player whether he took steroids or not, since, to the best of my knowledge, steroids do nothing for eyesight or hand-eye-coordination. I'm annoyed that his scandal is shaming the sport, but I'm saving my outrage for our crappy politicians.

[Higher Game]

Steroids improve reaction time in the brain as well as improving how quickly muscle fibers can act.

[Usurper]

For real? Shit. So much for benefit of the doubt.

I wonder if TerminX is using steroids to get those FEAR kill counts...gotta get me some of those.

[London_Midge]

Steroids improve reaction time in the brain...I'm sorry, what? No testosterone based steroid does that. No androgenic, cortico, or anabolic steroids do that. HGH doesn't do that, Clenbuterol doesn't do that, Erythropoietin doesn't do that. Neither do nandrolone phenpropionate, oxymethalone, stanozolol, methandrostenolone, oxandrolone, or boldenone undecyclenate.

I know there are many more, but I have never in any of my studies encountered anything that would do what you say. I have no idea how a steroid would even facilitate what you propose. No RUI or blocker is going to accomplish that in a healthy person. What you're talking about is the sort of breakthrough Parkinson's and Alzheimers researchers have been hoping to find for years. Increase reaction time from stimulus to response with the muscle itself? Certainly...but I am having a hard time accepting that answer within the brain.

I freely admit that I am not the world's leading expert, but I think I've been educated enough to understand whatever answer I am missing if you provide it.

Edit: And hey, he just hit #756.

[thefly]

Really? That makes it even more amazing how the performance of athletes in the steroid era is so remarkable.


Well, I worded that poorly. I meant "performance destroying" in the sense that they taint the performance of record breaking feats. Any big record broken in any sport now will have at least some people questioning if "the juice" was a factor.

[Higher Game]

I'm sorry, what? No testosterone based steroid does that. No androgenic, cortico, or anabolic steroids do that. HGH doesn't do that, Clenbuterol doesn't do that, Erythropoietin doesn't do that. Neither do nandrolone phenpropionate, oxymethalone, stanozolol, methandrostenolone, oxandrolone, or boldenone undecyclenate.

I know there are many more, but I have never in any of my studies encountered anything that would do what you say. I have no idea how a steroid would even facilitate what you propose. No RUI or blocker is going to accomplish that in a healthy person. What you're talking about is the sort of breakthrough Parkinson's and Alzheimers researchers have been hoping to find for years. Increase reaction time from stimulus to response with the muscle itself? Certainly...but I am having a hard time accepting that answer within the brain.

I freely admit that I am not the world's leading expert, but I think I've been educated enough to understand whatever answer I am missing if you provide it.

Edit: And hey, he just hit #756.

I suspect your studies are done on the average Joe, which makes sense, but things are a bit different for elite athletes. We can agree that men have better reaction times than women: it's undisputed. What isn't known by many people is that intense athletic training stresses the body and can decrease testosterone in elite athletes, which obviously affects performance unless they're getting a little bit of help. ;)

Of course, the answer might just be all in the muscle and not in the brain, as you said. I thought there was a brain difference because the male/female reaction time differences can't be trained away, because the sexes are just "wired" differently. If I'm wrong, well, I stand corrected. :)

[Joe Siegler]

Do you think Barry Bonds will pull off one more home run for the record?

No. No I don't. :)

Here's what I wrote about Barry on my Texas Rangers site (http://www.rangerfans.com/archives/2007/08/barry-bonds-756.html):

You know, all the problems, all the investigations... I have to say, congratulations to Barry Bonds. No matter what you think of him, no matter what you think he may or may not have done, it's still an impressive accomplishment. No, I don't have a problem with this, really.

The way I look at it is this. Even if I took twice the amount of things people have said Barry did. Heck, even four or five times the amount, there's no way it would make me hit baseballs like that. The natural talent is still there, and it's still impressive. Even if you go back to a time before all these issues are alleged to have started, he was still a hall of famer. Great player. To hit that many baseballs takes talent that I don't think any drug can give you. Plus, to be honest, it is still a big deal, and I'm not going to get all mad about it, get all pissy like a lot of sports people will probably do (Jim Rome comes to mind). I'm going to enjoy it. Partially because I figure Arod will probably beat it a few years down the road. :)

The local connection is that former Ranger Mike Bacsik was the one who gave up the shot. Quite a fiasco in the stands rumbling around for the ball.

Also, I was QUITE surprised at the video message from Hank Aaron. Given how much has been written about how Aaron can't stand Bonds, I was quite frankly shocked to see that there, especially given the remark that Hank Aaron made not too long ago saying he "didn't know how to spell his name". So it was quite surprising to see him there. Barry definitely loves his dad - that much showed in his speech.

I say let it go, because if you asterisk this event, then where do you stop with the "steroid era" stuff? Do you just eliminate anything that happened between 1985 or so and now? You can't do that either, so you just live with it, I think.

Now if something definitely happens, and we have concrete proof and he admits something, I might change my opinion, but for now...

Congratulations Barry Bonds.