Old Half-Life series question

[NutWrench]

I have a question! One of the neat things about the expansion packs for Half Life 1, was that you got to see some parts of the Black Mesa facility from a whole different perspective. Their timelines also ran concurrently with the original Half Life game so they weren't really sequels. But there is one bit of story that I'm not certain of.

At the end of either Opposing Force or Blue Shift, the Black Mesa facility gets nuked by the government. I remember Shepard being put into stasis by G-Man at the end of Opposing Force but I don't remember if the place got nuked. Did the actual nuking take place in Opposing Force or did that ending actually happen at the end of Blue Shift?

[Hudson]

The place getting nuked IIRC was only at the end of Blue Shift

[Daveman]

Yeah, I think that's why there's been speculation about whether Shepard will make an appearance in one of the new games.

[avatar_58]

I don't even know what to think of the expansions anymore. Barney Calhoun was created in Blue Shift (he wasn't known as "calhoun" until blue shift) and yet the Barney in HL2 cannot be him. You never promised Gordon a beer, and in fact you never even met him. Barney was just the name of the model, it wasn't the security guard's name. Therefore to me Barney Calhoun is the BS dude, regardless of what Valve says.

Thats why I want to see Shephard, because we already have one Gearbox character why not have another?

[Sang]

Nukage = Opposing Force, not Blue Shift

[FireFly]

I don't even know what to think of the expansions anymore. Barney Calhoun was created in Blue Shift (he wasn't known as "calhoun" until blue shift) and yet the Barney in HL2 cannot be him. You never promised Gordon a beer, and in fact you never even met him. Barney was just the name of the model, it wasn't the security guard's name. Therefore to me Barney Calhoun is the BS dude, regardless of what Valve says.
Barney is the BS dude, and Gordon knew him, prior to the events of Half-Life. For example, in Episode 1, Alyx mentions that Gordon and Barney would race each other through the ventilation system to reach Dr. Kleiner's office, when he locked the keys in.

[avatar_58]

Barney is the BS dude, and Gordon knew him, prior to the events of Half-Life. For example, in Episode 1, Alyx mentions that Gordon and Barney would race each other through the ventilation system to reach Dr. Kleiner's office, when he locked the keys in.

I actually didn't like that. Gordon has always been a blank slate and this tried to give him a personality. Valve needs to choose one or the other, frankly.

[Superczar]

I always wanted to see another expansion where you got to be a Black Ops, and the Nuke was OpFor like Sang said, it goes off while you are flying away in the Osprey with the G-man. :o

[Vroomfondel]

Nukage = Opposing Force, not Blue Shift

Indeed.
If I remember correctly, Sheppard either disabled the nuke or prevented it from being activated, but then the gman activated it anyway.

[FireFly]

Well, Gordon must have existed as an autonomous entity, before the player was around. Certainly, the more Valve reveal about Gordon the less room there is for the player to invent the character himself, but he needs to have some history.

In this particular case, I guess Valve just wanted to ground Barney's relationship with Gordon, so they were prepared to throw away a little of Gordon's mystery.

[Geir]

"I've heard stories about you and airducts. Doctor Kleiner says whenever he locked himself out of his office you and Barney used to compete to see who could get in fastest without using a key."

source: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0814129/quotes

This is a joke. She started out her conversation by saying that she has heard of this. She was still a baby at home during the Black Mesa incident. I believe it's just the citizens of City 17 spreading rumors and Kleiner just fibbing to create fantasy stories. I do not think it ever happened. The "race" may not even have been a race; it could just be talking about a place that both blue shift and HL visited at different times during the incident, with Kleiner's office and ducts.

[Damien_Azreal]

Well, Gordon must have existed as an autonomous entity, before the player was around. Certainly, the more Valve reveal about Gordon the less room there is for the player to invent the character himself, but he needs to have some history.

In this particular case, I guess Valve just wanted to ground Barney's relationship with Gordon, so they were prepared to throw away a little of Gordon's mystery.

Agreed. Gordon had a "life" before the events in the first game happened. He got through MIT on his own, made friends and had a life.
I like the idea of him having a backstory as opposed to a blank slate. The blank slate thing seems a little... off... considering they go for such strong characters and everything.

[NutWrench]

The original Half-Life boxed game included a new hire (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/68/FreemanJobLetter.jpg) letter, which gives a bit of info on Gordon's old life.

[Damien_Azreal]

Yep.
I've got that as well.

[alexgk]

The original Half-Life boxed game included a new hire (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/68/FreemanJobLetter.jpg) letter, which gives a bit of info on Gordon's old life.

Also included in the PS2 version...

[Danule]

I don't even know what to think of the expansions anymore. Barney Calhoun was created in Blue Shift (he wasn't known as "calhoun" until blue shift) and yet the Barney in HL2 cannot be him. You never promised Gordon a beer, and in fact you never even met him. Barney was just the name of the model, it wasn't the security guard's name. Therefore to me Barney Calhoun is the BS dude, regardless of what Valve says.

Thats why I want to see Shephard, because we already have one Gearbox character why not have another?

the security guard promises you a beer in half life 1. and he does the same voice for barney in half life 2.

[Reaper]

I thought Valve made HL2 with the presumption that the events in Blue Shift and OpFor never occurred.

[Simon Charles]

I actually didn't like that. Gordon has always been a blank slate and this tried to give him a personality. Valve needs to choose one or the other, frankly.

I fail to see where the dissatisfaction comes from. All they did was a reference to the fact that the friendly NPCs in HL1 repeated the same lines often, like the beer one. It's not like they were frantically trying to patch together two important plot devices to make them canon. It's a joke, a wink to the previous series, nothing more. It's forgotten in an instant. It's not a sign of bad story telling and it sure didn't leave me unsatisfied. I'm puzzled by your reaction. That beer line is completely insignificant and has no meaning on either games whatsoever.

[Commando Nukem]

I think what people fail to realise is this.

Every "Barney" you encounter in HL was basically dual purpose and COULD go either way based on what Valve needed. They're all Barney, and NONE of them are barney. It just depends on what Valve decides to reference. The same goes for all the Black scientists you encounter in the original game, some could be ELi, some could be completely different people.

Really, the bridge between HL1 and HL2 is pretty bumpy.


And backstory isnt a problem, it shouldnt be anyway... Hell, thats ALL we had back in the days of DOOM. What did you know about DooMGuy? He watched restricted vids and played cards in the messhall with his buddies on Mars. He was transferred after decking his CO - Whom ordered them to fire on civilians... and apparently we learn that in the future pilots dont stay with the dropship - so you're stranded on Phobos. (That one still leaves me scratching my head).

[Danule]

I fail to see where the dissatisfaction comes from. All they did was a reference to the fact that the friendly NPCs in HL1 repeated the same lines often, like the beer one. It's not like they were frantically trying to patch together two important plot devices to make them canon. It's a joke, a wink to the previous series, nothing more. It's forgotten in an instant. It's not a sign of bad story telling and it sure didn't leave me unsatisfied. I'm puzzled by your reaction. That beer line is completely insignificant and has no meaning on either games whatsoever.

yeah especially how he gives you a wink when he says it, and they do it aagain in half life 2 episode 2 with the casarol in the microwave joke.

[FireFly]

She was still a baby at home during the Black Mesa incident. I believe it's just the citizens of City 17 spreading rumors and Kleiner just fibbing to create fantasy stories.
If you can arbitrarily decide that certain characters are lying or deluded in what they say, then you're more or less free to create your own story.

[avatar_58]

I fail to see where the dissatisfaction comes from. All they did was a reference to the fact that the friendly NPCs in HL1 repeated the same lines often, like the beer one. It's not like they were frantically trying to patch together two important plot devices to make them canon. It's a joke, a wink to the previous series, nothing more. It's forgotten in an instant. It's not a sign of bad story telling and it sure didn't leave me unsatisfied. I'm puzzled by your reaction. That beer line is completely insignificant and has no meaning on either games whatsoever.

I never said anything about the beer line, I laughed at that. I just think the whole vent conversation was out of place. They tried their hardest to make 'you' Gordon, then they went and said you and Barney were old friends who liked to explore vents.

It's a small thing but it just makes me shake my head in confusion.

I thought Valve made HL2 with the presumption that the events in Blue Shift and OpFor never occurred.

Then why is his name Barney Calhoun? Calhoun was from BS, not HL. Unless I'm missing something the model was simply titled "Barney" and thats where the community got his name from. Gearbox invented the Calhoun, which is why I want to believe the Barney in HL2 is the one from BS.

[The Stinger]

They tried their hardest to make 'you' Gordon, then they went and said you and Barney were old friends who liked to explore vents.

But you "became" Gordon at the train ride to Black Mesa, so things like the vent or any other event could have ocurred. I still find it not nesecery to let Alexx make a comment about it though. The only way to let it work is to make Gordon
forget about his past. You are the one who should remember what did and did not happen, not she. It just makes you go "WTF!".

[Simon Charles]

yeah especially how he gives you a wink when he says it

He doesn't wink when he says it.

[alexgk]

But you "became" Gordon at the train ride to Black Mesa, so things like the vent or any other event could have ocurred. I still find it not nesecery to let Alexx make a comment about it though. The only way to let it work is to make Gordon
forget about his past. You are the one who should remember what did and did not happen, not she. It just makes you go "WTF!".

Like in the beer line, this was a joke about the first Half-Life, if not of every game that makes you walk through vents.

Btw, it's Alix Vance, not Alexx

[Little Conqueror]

...God, people, let Valve give Gordon some back story and not make you experience it firsthand.

Jesus, you people are reading too deep into it.

[Malgon]

Like in the beer line, this was a joke about the first Half-Life, if not of every game that makes you walk through vents.

Btw, it's Alyx Vance, not Alexx

Fixed. ;)

[alexgk]

Fixed. ;)

LOL :doh:

I had the feeling something was wrong with that post...

[avatar_58]

...God, people, let Valve give Gordon some back story and not make you experience it firsthand.

Jesus, you people are reading too deep into it.

We're talking about a game that refuses to show your hands while driving for immersion purposes. So yeah I kind of don't get it. Either we are playing Gordon or we are Gordon.....

[FireFly]

Valve have said that they chose not to do a FBA system because of certain problem cases, like balancing on thin ledges, not because they're opposed to the idea in principle.

You are inhabiting Gordon's body. Whether you want to believe you are Gordon, and have his backstory, or whether you want to believe you're merely taking control of him, is something Valve leaves up to you, although the Vort speak does indicate the latter.

In any case, both approaches require that Gordon has a backstory and identity of sorts. Even if you *are* Gordon, you didn't just teleport yourself into existence at the start of Half-Life, complete with a set of acquaintances and friends – and an established career. As such there is a history, outside of the game to explain, and it's perfectly reasonable for Valve to try to explain that history.

In believing that you are Gordon, you simply accept the history Valve has laid out, as your history.

[avatar_58]

Then shouldn't he talk? If we are "Gordon" the MIT guy who has a backstory and not Gordon the player then talking shouldn't be out of the question.

[FireFly]

It wouldn't be if the game could read your thoughts, and know what you wanted to say in every conversation. But as this is not possible, giving Gordon a voice entails giving him a character independent of you, which prevents you from fully believing that you are Gordon: you think one thing, he says another; you're faced with a difficult situation, he handles it himself.

[ZuljinRaynor]

It wouldn't be if the game could read your thoughts, and know what you wanted to say in every conversation. But as this is not possible, giving Gordon a voice entails giving him a character independent of you, which prevents you from fully believing that you are Gordon: you think one thing, he says another; you're faced with a difficult situation, he handles it himself.

Yeah but one sided conversations aren't really that fun.

[avatar_58]

It wouldn't be if the game could read your thoughts, and know what you wanted to say in every conversation. But as this is not possible, giving Gordon a voice entails giving him a character independent of you, which prevents you from fully believing that you are Gordon: you think one thing, he says another; you're faced with a difficult situation, he handles it himself.

However we're still forced to save City 17's people and follow them wherever they go. Therefore thats a moot argument, maybe I want to kill Alyx and eat her brains. Doesn't mean I can do it.

I mean the way they handle it now Gordon is having conversations - he just isn't saying anything. Obviously he's nodding or else he'd be seen as crazy when they ask him questions. There are moments such as the conversation with Eli Vance that drive me nuts, because you do not talk about the G-man. Whats the deal here? Any sane person would have spilled his guts when Eli admits to knowing him.

[Commando Nukem]

However we're still forced to save City 17's people and follow them wherever they go. Therefore thats a moot argument, maybe I want to kill Alyx and eat her brains. Doesn't mean I can do it.

I mean the way they handle it now Gordon is having conversations - he just isn't saying anything. Obviously he's nodding or else he'd be seen as crazy when they ask him questions. There are moments such as the conversation with Eli Vance that drive me nuts, because you do not talk about the G-man. Whats the deal here? Any sane person would have spilled his guts when Eli admits to knowing him.

Please just stop already... Here, have some crates and cakes :crate::cake:

This is really, REALLY ridiculous. No human on the planet is perfect. Valve had to "settle" with the inbetween... So just live with it, man.

[FireFly]

However we're still forced to save City 17's people and follow them wherever they go. Therefore thats a moot argument, maybe I want to kill Alyx and eat her brains. Doesn't mean I can do it.
But that's my point. These things are intrinsically tied to the fact that we're playing a video game world, not a real world. So we can either throw our hands up in the air and say that because we can't allow the player to do everything he wants, then he can't feel any sort of control in the first place, so it doesn't matter how we impedede or restrict him.

Or, we can take the I think, more realistic, line that the player can in fact feel some measure of self-expression and control, within the restrictions imposed by the game; and that we should be trying to give the player as much involvement with the experience as possible, even if some restrictions are inevitable.

In this regard, allowing the player to feel like characters are talking to him, and not somebody else, that he is in someway responsible for the actions that he takes, and not somebody else, gives a kind of direct involvement that is lost when the player is replaced by an independent character.

Now yes that illusion will be broken sometimes, by the player's own inability to speak: but is having some feeling of involvement not better than having none at all? And secondly, believing that the player is merely inhabiting Gordon's body, which I've said I think is the more realistic approach, avoids much of these issues, because the players' inability to speak can be explained simply as a limitation of his ability to control Gordon.

Either way, though, Gordon needs a backstory.

[The Stinger]

Why does he need a backstory? Hes a scientist at Black Mesa, thats enough back story for me. Besides the racing through ducts is silly, at least make it more believable...

[avatar_58]

Please just stop already... Here, have some crates and cakes :crate::cake:

This is really, REALLY ridiculous. No human on the planet is perfect. Valve had to "settle" with the inbetween... So just live with it, man.

No point in arguing anyway, since I'm just talking to myself apparently.

[Thriller]

If you guys are so annoyed by this little thing ("Beer"-line? wtf) I guess you must like this series way, way, way better than me.

Im more curious as to how and why they managed to screw up the series when the first game was one of the best ever made, and annoyed by how the "story" is presented as a whole. I´d definatly forgive one or two lines that seem out of place.

[Simon Charles]

Then shouldn't he talk? If we are "Gordon" the MIT guy who has a backstory and not Gordon the player then talking shouldn't be out of the question.

I fail to see the reasoning here. Just because he has a back story doesn't mean they were obligated to have the character talk. You know as much as you need to know about Gordon to explain why he is where he is, why he's with those people and why he shoots at aliens.

Personally, I'm glad he doesn't talk. When two people are talking, it makes me feel like I'm a third wheel, just watching a cutscene twiddling my thumbs until the elevator stops and the level finishes loading. If only the NPCs talk, then I can have some fun in my mind, and it makes me feel a bit more like I'm "there" with Alyx.

[Danule]

He doesn't wink when he says it.

my apologies!

[avatar_58]

Personally, I'm glad he doesn't talk. When two people are talking, it makes me feel like I'm a third wheel, just watching a cutscene twiddling my thumbs until the elevator stops and the level finishes loading. If only the NPCs talk, then I can have some fun in my mind, and it makes me feel a bit more like I'm "there" with Alyx.

What are you talking about? You still have to sit there and watch as they talk without you. I don't know about you, but I don't feel involved at all. You want me to feel involved then let me choose what to say in an RPG fashion.

[FireFly]

What are you talking about? You still have to sit there and watch as they talk without you.
They're talking to you. As opposed to talking to a character. Don't you see the difference between waking up one day and finding you can't speak, and waking up one day and finding that there's somebody else in your head speaking for you?

In the former case you'd still feel involved when others were talking to you. In the latter you'd feel, eventually, like they were talking to someone else.

[Simon Charles]

What are you talking about? You still have to sit there and watch as they talk without you.

You did not read what I wrote. Go read it again. I specifically said : because if Gordon doesn't talk, then it allows me to fill in the blanks in my mind. There's a difference between watching two people talking to each other (and you not being part of any of it), and someone talking TO you.

[evanazzo]

Maybe Gordons a mute :o

[avatar_58]

You did not read what I wrote. Go read it again. I specifically said : because if Gordon doesn't talk, then it allows me to fill in the blanks in my mind.

I don't buy that. It's the same excuse used by people who claim Oblivion is this huge monumental success. They make up stories with their imagination. Using that logic I could claim the original Doom was a masterpiece of storytelling. Doesn't mean it's true.

[FireFly]

I don't buy that. It's the same excuse used by people who claim Oblivion is this huge monumental success. They make up stories with their imagination. Using that logic I could claim the original Doom was a masterpiece of storytelling. Doesn't mean it's true.
You're taking things out of context. The claim isn't that the more detail the game requires you to fill in yourself, the better the game's story is. The claim is simply that there are advantages, to having the player fill in blanks with regard to his 'character' himself, because only he knows how he would react in certain situations (as Gordon or whoever), and as has been stated many times, this allows you to feel like people are talking to you, rather than talking to another character.

You don't even have to agree that this is a worthwhile trade-off to make: as long as you acknowledge that there are distinct advantages to this style of storytelling, then you should be able to see that it has its place.

Why must there be only one 'correct' method of telling stories in the first place?

[The Stinger]

Maybe Gordons a mute :o

No hes not (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J80KD4BG7M). :D

[evanazzo]

Edit: ^ Ah yes Freemans mind. I loved that. I wish they continued it.

I bet at the end of episode three Gordon talks and says "there i talked now all you 3DR forumers can stop bickering" and it hits the ending credits :D :p

And for the record Silent Bob doesn't talk but he still has a personality.

I like the idea of Gordon not talking but also haveing a back story. For me I like to know what happens to the character before and after what ever happens in the game. Thats why I'm a fan of video game books because I can see what they were like before anything happened. However since Half Life has no books that fact that valve is at least attempting a back story makes me happy.

My 2 cents (not like its worth much :p)