This is rather long, and if you aren't interested in my replies to your former comments, then please just jump down to the section that looks like this:
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Reality Check Section
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It has most of the new content that is directly relevent to showing why being upset with how 3DR has handled this situation is unfounded. The rest is me trying to be complete and answer the questions honestly. You can skip everything else if you don't care, but do take the effort to read the stuff at the bottom.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh well. Maybe some of the graphic compainies here in Vegas should sue 3D Realms for thier use of Photosource textures of slotmachines, because they are using the verbatim graphics from copyrighted sources...
If using Bruces lines(and signature props!!) isnt illegal, that is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You better start getting on the phone and contacting everyone in Vegas that has had their locations used in movies, books, paintings, etc. Most of the time using exact images/film/descriptions, and usually without direct persmission.
We are no different. Anything that might violate a copyright will be changed or deleted, and that's the end of that story. We are doing nothing different than any of the movies that you watch and love that base their sets on real world locations. There are certain places that obviously can not be used in any way... but all settings in Duke are available to be publically used... and are setup because Vegas (and any other place in the world that is like this) *wants* people to base their products on their locations.
Try again.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Im done arguing. I even had typed a whole page of arguments for this crap but Netscape crashed and Im just tired of it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sure you will be back to read what people have said, even if you don't post again. It is tiring fighting an uphill battle though, so I can understand why you might be tired of it.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Charlie I dont give a good godamn how to spell your name. Your not that important to me personally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I certainly hope I'm not that important to you.
However my concern arises from the fact that if you can't be expected to read my messages well enough to recognize that my last name is different than my handle, how can I expect you to read the arguments I'm presenting and actually try to absorb them and understand what is being said. With something like that happening, I'm more inclined to assume that you just quickly see the message, find the parts that make you upset, and reply to those without trying to learn and understand the situation more fully.
I'm not posting here out of some sense of self importance. I try to shy away from that when I can. However, I do know that we at 3DR know about this subject better than you, or anyone on this forum and thus feel it is good for us to try to honestly and completely answer the fans and anti-fans who have legitimate complaints. You raised issues, I'm trying to answer them as best I can and hopefully clear up your misconceptions about the situation. No more, no less.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>By the way. Not a SINGLE one of my arguments has been shot down except for the legality. Duh!! Read? Can you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually they all have because you have yet to actually offer any counter arguments to *anything* I have said. The only thing you have done is ask questions, get an answer, ask the same question again for some reason, get answer, say we are wrong... whether we can defend ourselves or not (which is absurd to the utmost).
Please... I'm trying to be clear and concise in my responses here... if you were really interested in discussing this you would at least be making an effort to understand what I'm saying and trying to look at the bigger picture outside of your personal perception of the situation. We know what we are talking about here. It's what we eat, sleep, breathe, and *live* day in and day out for several years. We know more about it than you and anyone else on this board. Disagree with us, fine... but at least if you are going to disagree attempt to offer some sort of reason as to *why* you think we are on the wrong. I see no clear arguments that you are trying to present so I'm having to try and cover all the bases.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>TUMS:How about you just close your mouth since nothing intellegent has come out of it. If you dont have anything constructive to add to the DISCUSSION (which you goddamn fanatics have turned into an argument) Then PLEASE just shut up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How polite, especially from someone who is asking people his attacking to be more polite when they haven't anything that was considered rude by the majority of the population on this planet.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>For one thing, this is the first "admission" involving the chainsaw EVER any where anywhen. So Kiss my ass, because he they JUST said that as a direct response to my "bitching" as you call it.
So.
I won.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Congratulations, what did you win? A cookie?
I don't get what sort of admission you are expecting. It's the most freaking obvious thing in the world that the chainsaw is a direct parody of the one from Army of Darkness. It would take a real moron or someone who hasn't seen the movies to *not* recognize it. What on earth are we supposed to be *admitting* here for crying out loud? We thought we were already screaming it from the rooftops as loud as we could by putting it in the screenshot. http://3drealms.3dportal.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif
Your goals are too low if you can win by getting us to admit something we aren't even trying to hide in the first place. You asked, we answered... I hope that didn't strain you too much getting that little nugget of information out of us. Yeesh.
And as an FYI, the world is larger than you and this forum. Discussions elsewhere have mentioned the chainsaw long before, and we have freely and openly discussed it with the people there. You got nothing out of us, as there was nothing to get. What a shallow victory don't you think?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I got exactly what I wanted out of 3DR and you are still just some lame kid who's busy cruising the "3D Realms is GOD pages".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Stop addressing the people who having nothing good to offer to the discussion (according to you) and focus back on me please. I'm offering complete, honest, well written, well worded arguments to the comments you have made. I know it's easier to lash out at the guys who are pushing your buttons than it is to offer counter arguments to the arguments I have to offer, but if you are at all interested in the discussion for real (and not just being negative for the sake of being negative) then come back to the person who is trying to have an intelligent discussion with you.
I'm still not sure what you "got out of us". We have never said the lines weren't used in reference to Ash, and have always freely admitted it. Again, aim a little higher next time. That's like trying to get us to admit that Duke has blonde hair. It's absurd to derive any pleasure from us saying "yes" to the question.
This next part I had to howl with laughter over though.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well, if you'd actually read my post instead of simply SEEING that I had posted and getting all pissed you'd have read that I personally had never heard anything of the kind, and the fact that I had SEARCHED the net for this kind of info to no avail, and was turning to 3DRealms for answers. When I did what did they say?
Paraphrase ahead warning:
"He cant sue us. We are protected by parody laws, even though we did use the lines as inspired by the movie. But of course if it ever came to court we could argue that those lines are common in the american lexicon. Oh and the chainsaw...well theres no way of denying that we took that, but he still cant sue us!! "
instead of,
"We're very sorry he's upset and would like to assure you that we have only the best intentions towards Bruce and the Evil-Dead trilogoy and are fans ourselves. The use of the weapon should be quite flattering and make for some Great gameplay!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok, so let me get this straight.
You are upset that we weren't as polite as we could have been when it came to using the things we did (which we had every right to), and yet you yourself can not follow your own guidelines? Need I remind you of how your first questions were stated?
You start off by accusing us of being criminals and that we have done something illegal.
Then you accuse us of hiding behind a lawer and that we haven't offered any sort of response to this subject, as if there was something sinister going on.
Then you accuse us of being willing to *LIE* about our knowledge that the lines were the same. Thank you, calling us liars is a great way to get off on the right foot.
Finally you accuse us of being willing to dance around the subject by claiming things that are completely false.
Thanks a lot for your polite and flattering questions.
Anyways, to answer your question. The only reason the legality of the subject was brought into play was because A) Bruce Campell hinted at possible legal action if he so desired and B) because you were questioning the legality of what we were doing. The lines were used because they were funny, added to the game, and fit. Not just because we could, and then could go dodge behind the laws.
You do know that Duke also says lines from Bruce Willis and other action heros right? Where is your parade going to defend these other guys? Or does Bruce Cambpell's public comments make it easier for you to jump up and say "Yeah... damn straight!". Had you even *thought* about it before this point? Don't answer that because it doesn't matter anymore.
The laws exist to protect people making entertainment products from being caught up in a million miles of red tape and having to deal with the impossible dilema of asking every single person that might be upset about the content in their product possibly copying something they did earlier. If we were to ask every single person/company that Duke borrowed from, most of it would have had to be dropped. *NOT* because they wouldn't have given permission, but because what good is the permission a year after it was needed? The laws are there to give people in entertainment the freedom to not constantly worry about legal action, the ability to do parody (which is an essential form of entertainment... has been since the beginning of time), and from the awful paper work that answering requests for permission would create for everyone involved.
By the way, this very same stuff has protected Bruce Campbell and Sam Raimi when they ripped off stuff from other things as well. Oh... shocked that they did the same thing as Duke? Bet you hadn't thought about that possibility huh? I'll get back to that later.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>By the time this argument is over, maybe some of you little kiddies will grow up and stop to think before getting all pissed that some actor "dissed" your favorite video game character. Get a damn life already.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ya know, if you would spend more time discussing the subject with me, instead of insulting people that you could care less what they have to say... perhaps we would actually be getting somewhere. You are getting pissed that some kiddies dissed an actor you like. I mean geez, talk about a pot calling a kettle black?!?! If you care so little about them and their lives, ignore them... it works for me when I have someone just trying to push my buttons without actually offering anything to the topic. If that's what you feel they are doing... ignore them! Please! Spend more time trying to counter argue my points if you really do believe what you have to say.
Otherwise we will all just have to finally assume that I'm right.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Scott Miller has been quoted in THIS VERY thread as saying
"I've never understood why Cambell is so put off by Duke, other than he feels spited that we didn't ask him to do Duke's voice, and we haven't talked to him about doing the movie"
Talk about Arrogant! Did it ever cross your little brains that he doesnt give a crap about being in your game or your movie?
Did he ever express interest in it? No? Maybe then he IS just pissed that you never said
"special thanks to Sam Raimi and Bruce Campbell for the EvilDead trilogy which was such a great inspiration for Duke"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are missing the point. We don't know why Bruce dislikes Duke so much. Scott speculated... that's his speculation. My own personal speculation is that he is tired of being asked about Duke in interviews and is upset by Duke being more successful with the lines than he was. It's an unfortunate side effect and something nobody expected when Duke was being made, but it happened... and there is no turning back now.
Regardless... 3DR has never thought Bruce would make a good Duke, so him not wanting to be in the movie is of no concern to us. Duke looks, sounds, and acts nothing like Bruce. He said 4 lines from one of his movies. That makes up, what... 1% of the insipiration for Duke? Give me a break. There is something rubbing Bruce the wrong way about the situation beyond a simple concern over a potential copyright infringement.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How about you guys friggan call him and ASK him why he's so pissed? Huh? Did that ever pass your "primitive screwheads"?????????
No??????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why should we? We aren't the ones who have a problem with the situation. He's pissed, that's unfortunate. Life moves on. *HE* is the one with the problem, *HE* is the one who needs to instigate a discussion if he feels anything needs to be ironed out. What, just because Bruce Campbell is upset means we should jump to his beck and call and make him happy? Give me a break. Especially when his anger is completely unfounded and based off of misinformation (more on that later).
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Because you ripped him off. Thats what its called when you USE SOMEBODY ELSES IDEAS THAT YOU GOT FROM THEM WITHOUT ASKING. WHETHER ITS LEGAL OR NOT. DEFENDABLE OR NOT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well that's great. Defendable or Not... common practice or not... widely accepted method of conducting ourselves or not... *used* by Bruce Campbell and Sam Raimi themselves or not.
Re-read that last part of the sentence again so that I can make sure you really got it.
Nobody who has defended Bruce has *yet* to reply or offer any sort of response as to why they aren't up in arms over the rest of the references to people in Duke? Do you not realize how absurd it is to get this defensive about those 4 lines when there are things that come much closer to direct ripoffs in the original Duke 3D than those? What gives?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>At this point however I feel almost obligated to say that that respect does not extend to either George Brussard or Scott Miller for the dishonerable and childish way that they appear to have handled this. They, as Dukes creators, should have given credit where it was due. I say appear because IM NOT pretending to have all the facts. Thats why most of my statements are accompanied by a "as far as I know" or "to the best of my knowledge" and "if Im wrong I apologize, but..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They are accompanied by "as far as I know" unfortunately... because you are not completely aware and educated on this subject, and don't know the entire scope of the subject you are attacking. As for not respecting George and Scott... well since the rest of the 3DR staff stands behind them on this subject, and agrees as much, if not more, with the way it was done... you'll have to pass that disrespect onto the rest of us.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This post is not a personal attack against anybody and is merely to express my mild displeasure with 3dRealms and the handling of this situation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Within the scope of how the world runs, and the rest of the content with Duke... would you *please* explain to me how you or anyone else has any reason to be displeased with how it was handled? You have to step out of your little part of the world in order to do this though, and I hope that you can. I either expect you to realize exactly the reality behind the subject and understand where we are coming from... otherwise I had better see a thread soon defending everybody else that was referenced to in Duke3D. Also, everything that was referenced/ripped off in everything that Bruce Campbell and Sam Raimi have done. Also, everything that was referrenced/ripped off in all parody movies and TV shows. Also, everything... (is the point clear?)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You know what would be really nice? And would make EVERYBODY happy I think? If either one of George or Scott were to write to Bruce to pleasently and cordially sort this out in a civilized adult manner. I cant see how that would be too much to do for these guys who are sooooo confident they are in the right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why should they? Bruce is the one who is upset. Bruce is the one who is angry. Bruce is the one who has hinted at possible legal action if he was that sort of guy. We could cut all aspects of Bruce out of the Duke games right now and it wouldn't affect it other than to cut out a sliver of culture that is fun and entertaining to have around and that makes Bruce fans laugh and talk about how cool it was to see "such and such" in Duke.
Why should 3DR make an effort to sort out a situation that isn't a problem 99% of the time in the rest of the world, and only stems from Bruce Campbell having an odd reaction to the stuff. He didn't like it, darn. The game goes on, we do other stuff, he's still just a tiny fraction of the Duke universe... we have bigger fish to fry. If Bruce is really that upset about it, he can come talk to us about it.
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Reality check section
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First - lets examine the things that are taken from the Evil Dead universe.
Box art: The box art was created as a mimic of the Army of Darkness posters.
Now let's think about the Army of Darkness poster. It is based upon the designs of a certain movie poster guy (I can not think of his name, but he did some of the Star Wars ones and did a lot of them during the early 80's). More specifically... it is taken almost directly from any one of those posters that feature a person mainly. Don't believe me, here is an example: http://www.posterparadise.com/ESB_b1st.htm
-- Ok, so the Army of Darkness poster was ripped off from Star Wars posters (and others like them). Now... the guy who did that original style of posters *might* have been the one to do the AoD poster... if so than I do withdraw this one, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't and that the AoD poster is a parody of this style. So Duke ripped off something that was already being ripped off... goodness how could we be so evil? I don't seem to remember any credit on the AoD poster for where the original layout came from.
"Groovy": Did Austin Powers rip off Ash? Or did the 60's? Surely the absurdity of getting upset about this one is obvious.
"Ohhh... that's gotta hurt!": I seem to remember hearing people say this when I was little all the time... I guess the people of my childhood in the 80's knew Ash was coming and wanted to Quote him and get an early start.
"Who wants some?": Ditto. I distinctly remember soccer in elementary school, one of our forwards loved to taunt the other team by saying this. "Who wants some? Huh?!? Come and get us!" type of things.
-- These are not original phrases... and are pulled directly from pop culture. With very little effort I'm sure all of us could find popular movies that used these exact phrases. AoD used them because the way Ash said them was funny, and they fit in the movie. Duke used them because they were funny and they fit the game. AoD entered the realm of pop culture, and thus Duke pulling these lines from AoD is the exact same as where they were pulled from by AoD.
Furthermore, the way Duke says all of those lines is absolutely nothing like Ash. The stresses, inflections, and tones are completely different. The only way to know, or think, they are from AoD is to be as big of fans of the movie as we were.
"Hail to the King, Baby": This one is the kicker... as everyone who has used it has been quite successfull with it. Let me get more in depth about it.
-- Elvis Presley. I'm sure you have heard of him. Used that exact same phrase as one of his catch phrases when Bruce Campbell was still barely an infant. Point - This was a major marketing vehicle for Elvis. Point - It was a catch phrase for Elvis. Point - It was a very popular and very well known phrase for over a quarter of a decade before AoD was even created. Point - Who on earth do you think Bruce is paying "homage" to when he says those lines in the movie!!!! I mean good lord, it's not like Sam Raimi and Bruce can say "Well, we didn't know Elvis used that phrase before us". I honestly can not believe the absurdity of having to defend using a line such as this in Duke, when the person that is being defended got it in the exact same manner!
It's borrowed text used because it's funny and fitting of the entertainment medium. Doesn't that sound remarkably familiar to something that 3DR has been saying all along?
Johnny Bravo (a cartoon character in case you aren't aware of who he is) is a complete charicature of Elvis Presley... and guess what one of his tag lines is? "Hail to the King, baby". Johnny Bravo has absolutely no bearing or relation to Army of Darkness, Bruce Campbell, Ash, Sam Raimi, etc. etc. If you are consistent you will now head to any Johnny Bravo webpages and start griping at the people there for using that line.
Again, if this point isn't coming through loud and clear, let me know... because I'm happy to try again. You are complaining about a line that was borrowed from Ash and put into Duke 3D, which was originally borrowed from Elvis Presley and used by Ash, which very well might have had a source before Elvis, etc. etc.
/me throws his arms up in the air
-- So there, all of the "ripoffs" in the released games thus far were in fact ripoffs of the same pop culture that Duke pulls from. It should be obvious now why 3DR is so unforgiving about Bruce Campbell being upset that his lines were "stolen". They weren't even "his" lines to begin with. The hypocrisy of the situation makes me want to puke.
"What about the chainsaw?" you say! - Good point... as it is now it is a straight rip and might possibly infringe upon something. However... the game is not done... the passthrough that gets rid of everything that might get us into trouble is not done, and thus the chainsaw is a possible thing to get changed. Colors may have to change, shape may have to change... hell, it may have to get cut. We are not so reliant upon Bruce Campbell that it would bother us to get rid of it if needed. However, we think players would like it a lot more, and it will be a lot more fun and entertaining the way it is now. Which, considering we are game players... is our main concern.
Need I remind you though, that someone losing their hand (or other appendage) and attaching a weapon or machine to replace the hand is not original to Evil Dead either. It was funny, fit the story they were telling, and they went with it. Everyone laughs, has a good time... end of story. It is when things like this are taken too seriously that people stop having fun and just enjoying things for what they are.
-- Ok... now, what else did Evil Dead rip off? Well, I thought about it for a couple of minutes and quickly came up with three things. Let me share with you.
S-Mart: K-Mart, looks like K-Mart, sounds like K-Mart... they just changed one letter... hey... what the hell!?!?!?!
Remember the scene where Ash is tied down by all the little Ash guys? That kinda reminds me of an old tale called Gulliver's Travels.
King Arthur? Where have we heard of a King Arthur before?
I'm sure if I were to go watch the movie again I could bring back a much larger list. These are all references by AoD to things that people know and love. And you thought it was all original. Again, all I ask is that you educate yourself about the situation and exactly what it is you are talking about before trying to take on a subject that we might just happen to know a *lot* about. It would make life easier for all of us.
Point made?
-- One last reality check about the AoD and Bruce Campbell stuff: Bruce Campbell is basing all of his anger off of second hand information and is completely uninformed about the reality the role his lines play in the Duke Nukem games. I can not connect to the page that has the quote so I will have to summarize. Once I can get back to the page I guarantee you I will have the quote for you as well as the page linked so that you will have some solid information to see that I'm not making it up.
Essentially it boils down to this. Bruce thinks that Duke used "dozens" of lines from the Evil Dead movies. He also thinks that these lines make up everything there is to Duke's dialoge.
He does not know that only 4 lines were used. He does not know that there are a couple hundred other lines that Duke speaks, and that 75% of them are completely original (as original as lines can be). He does not know that the majority of Duke's most popular lines are original, and that only "Hail to the King, Baby" is as popular as the rest (which of course was Elvis' first so let's not get to upset over that one). He does not know of the hundreds and hundreds of references made in Duke Nukem are about other action heros, public figures, movies, books, TV shows, etc.
Finally, he doesn't know that despite all these references and parodies, that the vast majority of the content in Duke Nukem games is completely original and fresh.
This is made painfully obvious in an interview he recently did, and as soon as I can get the source again I will share it with you.
Now, would he be any less upset if he knew the truth? I don't know... probably not now as he already has it too deeply rooted in himself it seems. However, it would most certainly stop his public ridicule of Duke and how Ash is Duke, 3DR ripped off Ash to create Duke... and that "if he was the litigious sort of guy, he'd have called us by now".
I'm betting if he had heard of it or seen it in the proper context... it would have been taken *FAR* differently.
But we won't think about that because it would mean that those defending Bruce would look silly since Bruce's entire defense surives on his ignorance of Duke and nothing else. I expected more from people who have actually played the game.
-- Last thing: Since you are so upset about 3DR not giving credit to the references to Evil Dead... I certainly hope that you have the exact same problem with everything listed below, as well as anything else that falls into this same sort of category.
Saturday Night Live
Mad Magazine
Spaceballs
The Simpsons
South Park
Scream (et. all)
Wayne's World
Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure
Airplane
Amazon Women on the Moon
Naked Gun (et. all)
Spy Hard
Top Secret
Austin Powers
(I can go on and on)
-- Want some examples to further backup my point that the way 3DR handled it was just fine, and that Bruce Campbell really is getting upset over something he has no reason to be?
Saturday Night Live: Certainly a skit mocking Jeapardy using the same look, sound effects, voice styles, words, etc. would fall into the same category (if not more) than Duke. Not to mention the parodies of Tom Cruise, Adam Sandler, Sean Connery, and Alex Trebbek (sp?). Duke doesn't even copy the way Ash looks or sounds, although they do it quite well in SNL. Ben Stiller as the host, Oct 24th, in case you want to check their page, it has a clip. http://www.nbc.com/snl
The *entire* skit is a blatant ripoff of the gameshow, the host, and three famous actors... all wrapped up into one ball.
-- Wayne's World: There is an entire segment where Wayne is going after Cassandra to interrupt the wedding she is about to get married in. This entire sequence is an exact copy (updated with the cast of "Wayne's World") of a long sequence in the movie with Dustin Hoffman called "The Graduate". They go to the exact same places (even use the same church), copy the same camera angles, and copy most of the words exactly. They copy the music used, etc. And it was funny as hell. There was no credit given... the reference (as in all of these cases) *was* the credit. It was the flattery.
I've done your homework for you now, I don't think there is anything else that a person could do to drive this point home any clearer.
Hopefully you stuck with me through this. My fingers really freaking hurt. I hope it hasn't gone in vain... I think you are a reasonable person and that this last section details it out for you the reality of what is going on here. I'm telling you, we know what we are doing. We know how this works, and know how everyone else does it. Duke wouldn't have done as well with the parody and "in jokes" had they *not* known this.
If you honestly still can not see where 3DR is coming from on the subject after this, then it truly is a lost cause... and I suggest you never get into any sort of entertainment business and create something successful. Because people *will* parody it, and they won't ask permission.
By the way:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I ever get into games Im gonna have Duke somewhere getting the crap kicked outta him by old ladies or aliens or something, then whenever anybody complains Ill just say:
"Hey! You dont like it? Just try sueing me!"
instead of
"Gee ya know, I thouht it would be nice to use your character in my game, for the sake of parody of course. You dont mind do you?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While that situation doesn't sound very funny... please do it! Make sure that you protect yourself from any sort of copyright infringement, but beyond that the sky is the limit! We *love* it when Duke is referenced in other media. Most people are. It's a sign that their creation has hit that critical limit of pop culture and success.
And you know what, you wouldn't have to ask and we wouldn't give a damn.
Charlie Wiederhold
[This message has been edited by Wieder (edited 11-13-1999).]