John D. Carmack - the Tiger Woods of Game Makers [Archive]

DerricktheW

07-15-2008, 05:43 AM

All id games have been great, even if they don't fully live up to their expectations (Doom 3, but I loved it) and they, ofcourse, always had the big innovaters of games. Wolfenstein, basically the first FPS; Doom, the BEST FPS even to this day; Quake, the first 3D game I believe (as in models instead of sprites) and multiplayer populator; and now we come to Rage.

At first, I wasn't all that interested in Rage. This latest trailer, for some reason, just completely got me all for Rage. Best in show at E3 so far for me. Even IF its going for a T rating (from what I saw in an interview a while ago).

But ofcourse, this is a Carmack thread, not a Rage thread. I first saw what Carmack actually looked and sounded like in an old Doom 3 interview, and I seriously had to question how someone like that could make such gothic-like games like Doom or Quake. From what I saw, he himself made the great looking graphics game after game, and that answered my question.

Plus, without Carmack, games might not have been the same as they are now...

slapnutz

07-15-2008, 05:51 AM

Btw, doesnt Carmack have like a million hobbies and side-projects outside games which takes up his time?

... and probably like the Project Offset programmer dude, he probably has a really small team when coding new engines unlike Unreal Engine, Cryengine, etc...?

Kristian Joensen

07-15-2008, 06:04 AM

He runs Armadillo Aerospace with some other guys(one of whom he hired recently at id).

Edit:

http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home

Edit2:

http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home/Business/About

Katherine Anna Kang = Carmack's wife and President, id Mobile. Matthew Ross = Lead Designer, id Mobile.

http://www.idsoftware.com/business/team/ (http://www.idsoftware.com/business/team/)

KO Gilligan

07-15-2008, 06:23 AM

http://www.overwarp.com/index.php?page=news/fullstory.php&indid=3452

Beautiful....

MAT

07-15-2008, 06:39 AM

The video-gaming industry used to owe its speed of growth to Carmack. He has done much more technology pioneering than anyone else in the industry did, so he deserves great respect.

Kennerado

07-15-2008, 06:46 AM

Scott Miller once said if he could poach anyone from another company it would be Carmack.

Blue Lightning

07-15-2008, 06:51 AM

I made that comment about Carmack on another thread, so I will respond to the OP. I do like disscussion but I do not like flaming, so let's not have any...ok? Let's be adults people.

Carmack is a legend, there is no doubt. What he did with Wolf3D and espicially DooM changed the industry. In fact, Doom was so good, that it litterally shook the world and it's effects are seen to this day. Quake was not as good (but still good), but it also blazed some new trails in the industry and gave us real 3D models for the first time instead of sprites.

But what has he done latley? I see players quoting him all of the time like he is some kind of God. But I cannot help but think his greatness is over.

Quake was the last "greatness" we have seen from Carmack...1997. He had little to do with RTCW which was an Epic game, and that takes us to Doom 3. Doom 3 was a good game but not great by any means. It fell short in too many ways. It did graphics but not gameplay.

Now I catch a lot of heat from players on this forum for liking Half Life 2. I think it is the best game ever, and people laugh at me for that (I dont know why). But here it has to be mentioned. The 2004 awards showed HL2 taking almost every award and trouncing Doom 3 in almost every catagory. It was embarrasing, and I felt embarrased for id while I was watching that.

After that I have seen nothing from Carmack, yet he is still quoted like some kind of Messiah or something. But it is devs like Gabe Newell and Ken Levine who are blazing the new trails in FPS gaming...but they seem to get overshadowed by Carmack. That's what I have noticed.

peoplessi

07-15-2008, 07:01 AM

Well, I don't agree on that view at all. Carmack has always been more of a tech guy, as he is know, mostly doing research and pushings those visuals. He is a genius in what he does.

What has he done lately? id Tech 5 - in my opinion very nice looking engine, based on what I've heard / seen, it will trounce UT3 engine easily(not only meaning visuals).

Ken Levine, well, he did BioShock & SystemShock 2, from those two - BioShock didn't deserve the hype it got. Good guy, nonetheless. You see, they aren't competing against each other in persona, Carmack likes to focuse his time on tech, new adventures and so on like mobile games.

Gabe Newell, yeah, great stuff also, but he isn't tech guy either, that is what makes Carmack different from these two.

Commando Nukem

07-15-2008, 07:03 AM

Let me help you blue...

Carmack-
Wolfenstein 3D - engine
Doom - engine
Quake - engine
Quake 3 - engine
Doom 3 - engine
Rage - engine

Valve-
Used Quake engine -- Source is a quake copy cat in everyway, and Half-Life used Quake at its core. 80% of the lifetime of the original Half Life came from mods like TFC, CS, DOD, and NS. You will note three of them were picked up by Valve and packaged. Valve has a good business model, no doubt about that... But John Carmack deserves credit for creating modern gaming through his engines that have pushed the industry forward (even DooM 3 made many devs RUSH to get the same kind of light/surface interaction it had.)

Carmacks engines have powered dozens and dozens of games. RTCW, Enemy Territory, Quake Wars, Quake 1-4, Prey, Doom 1-3, Cooridor 7, Blake Stone, ROTT, HL, An early build of DNF, SIN, Kingpin... and probably a few others that im failing to mention.

Point is, many games still being played today owe a lot to John Carmacks genious with programming.

Blue Lightning

07-15-2008, 07:15 AM

Ken Levine, well, he did BioShock & SystemShock 2, from those two - BioShock didn't deserve the hype it got. Good guy, nonetheless. You see, they aren't competing against each other in persona, Carmack likes to focuse his time on tech, new adventures and so on like mobile games.

Gabe Newell, yeah, great stuff also, but he isn't tech guy either, that is what makes Carmack different from these two.

Newell not a tech guy? I dont know about that. I know what you mean though in a way. Bioshock...I don't think it was overhyped at all. Nonetheless, time will tell how it shook the industry. I think that in a few years after some perspective can be achieved, what Bioshock has done will be fully realized.

Let me help you blue...

Carmack-
Wolfenstein 3D - engine
Doom - engine
Quake - engine
Quake 3 - engine
Doom 3 - engine
Rage - engine

Valve-
Used Quake engine -- Source is a quake copy cat in everyway, and Half-Life used Quake at its core. 80% of the lifetime of the original Half Life came from mods like TFC, CS, DOD, and NS. You will note three of them were picked up by Valve and packaged. Valve has a good business model, no doubt about that... But John Carmack deserves credit for creating modern gaming through his engines that have pushed the industry forward (even DooM 3 made many devs RUSH to get the same kind of light/surface interaction it had.)

Yes his engines were great. RTCW and CoD and many other games used his Q3 engine. Remember though, Half Life used the Goldsource engine (not Source as you say), and although a lot of its code was derived from the Quake engine, it was after all, a brand new engine made by the newly formed VALVe. HL2's Source engine has nothing to do with Quake III or anything else. It was made from scratch. But yeah, it was Carmacks engines where VALVe got it's ideas from, back in the 90's no doubt.

And in the 1990's, it was Ken Silvermans BUILD engine which was liscensed by other devs the most. Even Carmack admitted that BUILD was "incredible". But I am sure that he may have gotten some ideas from Carmacks stuff, you know? But still, Silverman and Newell and other world shakers get little credit compared to Carmack.

Point is, many games still being played today owe a lot to John Carmacks genious with programming.

Agreed.

Commando Nukem

07-15-2008, 07:23 AM

Yes his engines are great. Remember though, Half Life used the Quake II engine as a base.

Fixed. You can slap a pretty name on it all you like. All Valve did was buy the rights to Quake II source and use that as a platform, aside from Skeletal animation and MDL model format, the engine was not all that drastically changed.

And in the 1990's, it was Ken Silvermans BUILD engine which was liscensed by other devs the most. Even Carmack admitted that BUILD was "incredible".

Yes, Carmack thought the engine was incredible, but Quake and BUILD were the powerhouses of that day, and BUILD enjoyed a long healthy career. This does not change the fact that Carmacks engines are far and wide more successful and in use then any other game developer, and John Carmack is not some has been. Everytime you say "were" "had" "was" you are really insulting his work. Hes not yesterdays news. Hes always pushing for tommorow, and I very much doubt hes going anywhere anytime soon.

Valve owes their success to Carmack to a degree. Many game developers that have used Quake1/3, Doom 3 engine, or any of Carmacks other engines (some of those arent THAT old you know.) owe a certain amount of their success to Carmack and his engines.

KO Gilligan

07-15-2008, 07:26 AM

As I said in my original post he has not only been busy with his company making Rage and dialing in one of the most advanced engines in gaming, he is still probably the most active and prolific names in the industry today - an "award hog" :LOL:

Here he is here posing with his Technology 2008 award:
http://kotaku.com/342028/2008-tech-emmy-winners
Here is his 2007 Emmy Award
http://www.emmyonline.org/releases/pdf/58th_Tech_Eng_winners.pdf

He's actually the only game Designer to have taken two Technology & Engineering Emmy Awards

and one of only three to even have won awards from Both Emmy organizations

He wrestles the legalities and technicalities of Open Source use and game modifications, and he's a lead designer for a consortium of people who meet in the desert that have NASA worried that they won't be the ones with the next space shuttle.

My God, It's like he's not human. I would have understood your post BL a bit more if you said he was the Anti-Christ.

Blue Lightning

07-15-2008, 07:27 AM

I had fixed what I said as you were posting. Here is my edited quote

And in the 1990's, it was Ken Silvermans BUILD engine which was liscensed by other devs the most. Even Carmack admitted that BUILD was "incredible". But I am sure that he may have gotten some ideas from Carmacks stuff, you know? But still, Silverman and Newell and other world shakers get little credit compared to Carmack.

And

HL2's Source engine has nothing to do with Quake III or anything else. It was made from scratch. But yeah, it was Carmacks engines where VALVe got it's ideas from, back in the 90's no doubt.

Anyway, we probebly agree more than we disagree on this subject.

Commando Nukem

07-15-2008, 07:32 AM

HL2's Source engine has nothing to do with Quake III or anything else. It was made from scratch. But yeah, it was Carmacks engines where VALVe got it's ideas from, back in the 90's no doubt.
And

Thats why when I say "Half-life" and "Quake" without numerics, im referring to Half-Life and Quake.

Source was derivitive of the original HL engine, which was built on Quake 2. All you have to do is look at the code and the way the games handle things and you can clearly see that Source engine is just refurbished HL, which is just altered Quake 2. It leads back to Carmack anyway you slice it.

Source is like a professional version of EDUKE32 and the HRP. It extends limits, and multiples the detail by a factor of four. Literally, thats what source is. It adds a lot of blinking lights, high resolution, and new rendering functions, but its ultimately just Quake with more cynlinders in the engine.

Blue Lightning

07-15-2008, 07:39 AM

Everything comes form everything. Dooms "id tech" engine was probebly derived from Nietendos "Donkey Kong" for all we know. Everybody gets idas from something else and improves on it.

Source is much more than just an upgraded HL engine. There are many complex changes that took effect, not the least of which was VALVe renting the Havoc software for physics, but then tweaking the hell out of it making it 10 times better and incorporating it into Source.

Again, just saying that everything uses some ideas from other things and improves on it with it's own "new stuff". But yeah, I would agree that Carmack has used more of his own "new stuff" in making an engine than probebly anyone.

Lethe

07-15-2008, 07:44 AM

Source is like a professional version of EDUKE32 and the HRP. It extends limits, and multiples the detail by a factor of four. Literally, thats what source is. It adds a lot of blinking lights, high resolution, and new rendering functions, but its ultimately just Quake with more cynlinders in the engine.

That is very wrong. Elements Source took from Quake engine are so simple, they could've easily made it themselves. But, they had the licence, and there was no point in wasting time on doing everything from stratch.

Saying that Source engine is just beefed up Quake or comparing it to EDUKE32 or HRP in any way is nothing but an insult. Not true man, not true at all.

If in any case you were correct, they would be paying id for engine rights.

John

07-15-2008, 07:47 AM

I think it's safe to say though that BL will simply not acknowledge that his sacred Half Life derived from John D. Carmack's engine. Whether they added or removed anything is irrelevant; without Quake there would be no Half Life. Accept it and move on.

Blue Lightning

07-15-2008, 07:53 AM

Mabey so, but without Mazewar (1973) we may not have had Wolf 3D. And without Spacewar (1962 MIT), we probebly would not have had Mazewar.

Again, everything leads to everything in the future. But again. I agree that Carmack probebly has done as much as anyone or even more, in making "new additions" and new things.

KO Gilligan

07-15-2008, 08:06 AM

Awww.... now see, time for a group hug

:love::love::love::love:

.... and we have John Carmack to thank for it.

Commando Nukem

07-15-2008, 08:26 AM

That is very wrong.

Considering you go on to say they still use parts of Quake in source proves that im not. The difference here is im saying "fundamental" and you're saying "small" Source works just like most other Quake engine games. Even uses reworked file types from the first Half Life. Even uses many of the same entity types as most standard Quake engine games. Uses its own version of Worldcraft which goes back to the original Quake.

Saying that Source engine is just beefed up Quake or comparing it to EDUKE32 or HRP in any way is nothing but an insult. Not true man, not true at all.

Its true, and it is not an insult. What valve did with the code was indeed very good, and some of the enhancements at the time were revolutionary. That doesnt change that fact that Carmack deserves credit for truly fathering 3D games. The ancient MIT test projects Blue mentions, while they formulated a lot of the mathematics behind 3d engines, Carmack made it happen on home computers.

If in any case you were correct, they would be paying id for engine rights.

No, because they arent. Half Life used Quake 2 code, period. Half Life 2 was an evolution of the Half Life source. They may have gutted and reworked things, but it is still Quake at the core, and it behaves just like a Quake engine based game would, only with limitations greatly reduced.

slapnutz

07-15-2008, 08:38 AM

After that I have seen nothing from Carmack, yet he is still quoted like some kind of Messiah or something. But it is devs like Gabe Newell and Ken Levine who are blazing the new trails in FPS gaming...but they seem to get overshadowed by Carmack. That's what I have noticed.

Hmm.. I think I found a solution to your problem. Whenever you see people praise JC as a god, messiah, etc ... see it like this instead.

JC = Engine Design God/Messiah
Others = Game Design God/Messiah

JC =/= Gameplay Messiah.

JC himself has said, since Quake he been more on the tech side instead of gameplay design and since Doom3 he's pretty much moved onto 99% tech design and stays away from game design.

peoplessi

07-15-2008, 09:00 AM

Commando Nukem: What counts as being "Quake at the core"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_engine#Origins

ryche

07-15-2008, 09:18 AM

Who cares? You won't be able to change ones mind so why bicker about who's right?

Continue with other things

Drazula

07-15-2008, 10:30 AM

I wouldn't call Carmack the Tiger Woods of gaming. He does not dominate as much as he points a direction. He explored places others had no idea how to get to. He's more like Magellan, or John Glenn. A pioneer.

I would put Apogee and Scott Miller in a similar category with the "one of three" shareware model. It really exploded PC gaming and FPS in particular. Not bad for a guy who spews sales drivel all the time. ;)

peoplessi

07-15-2008, 11:00 AM

Well, I think the thread title is silly, no matter what :)

KO Gilligan

07-15-2008, 11:11 AM

It's a forum thread title. It's a catchy little silly analogy that brings us here.
There's no need to thank me - I got a million of 'em

But maybe next time I'll use one in the Title for a Published Research Paper style of naming.

I typically steer clear of the Sensational Newspaper Heading type.

John

07-15-2008, 11:41 AM

I don't even understand the analogy. Tiger Woods is always on top and is single handily the best of his sport right now, but he's still young(er) and he didn't innovate, or create, or start anything like Carmack. Carmack, while changing and innovating the industry, hasn't really been on top (imo) since Doom/Quake.

Sang

07-15-2008, 11:45 AM

Carmack hasn't really been on top

So then how...

yeah, no.

:dopefish:

KO Gilligan

07-15-2008, 11:47 AM

I have to admit I liked the John Glenn analogy better myself....

Plus that kind of fits in with the space exploration aspects as well.
But the Savings and Loan Scandal kind of throws a wrench in it

Captain James Cook?
But he died fighting the Natives on his travels - and Carmack gets along with EA and the Japanese alright

I dunno....

John

07-15-2008, 11:48 AM

John D. Carmack - The John Carmack of Game Makers

KO Gilligan

07-15-2008, 11:59 AM

John D. Carmack - The John Carmack of Game Makers

Wow - that would have been a sweet title :)

O, Well. Damage Done. It's not anything we really need a moderator for :rolleyes:

timothy2

07-15-2008, 12:54 PM

I wanted to say...HL2 still uses the same editor Quake had :p

Phait

07-15-2008, 01:16 PM

Yes, the easiest editor ever, thank god.

Wamplet

07-15-2008, 01:27 PM

Other than him originally not wanting to put physics into Doom3, he's ok in my book. :o

peoplessi

07-15-2008, 01:34 PM

Wamplet: Any quote on that? Since every single game has to have physics of some sort, well not _every_, but FPS games.

I wanted to say...HL2 still uses the same editor Quake had :p

Well, it doesn't. It surely has it roots there, but it isn't the same.

Yes, the easiest editor ever, thank god.

I wouldn't go as far to say it is the easiest level editor. I can't really tell which one you mean, the Worldcraft or Hammer?

Blue Lightning

07-15-2008, 02:14 PM

HL2 is also great because of Havoc. Where would it be without Havoc for physics?

Nessus

07-15-2008, 02:31 PM

Carmack is a luminary and still one of the most important guys in the industry. In my eye's his weak point is in games design, it seems the less he is involved the better. I love to read his Quakecon speeches, if anyone knows where I can find a transcript of the last 2 I'm missing those. (text not video)

Another Duke Fan

07-15-2008, 02:42 PM

I have only the videos, sorry. And yes, John C. is genius.

Wamplet

07-15-2008, 03:09 PM

Wamplet: Any quote on that?

I have no idea where and when, but I read it a loooong time ago (a Q&A with one of the game sites i believe), probably a little bit before Doom 3 was out and he mentioned something about how basically everyone else there wanted it in and he didn't want to waste time on it and called physics a gimmick i think. I may be screwing up the exact quote, but maybe someone else may remember.

I honestly think there was going to be a mutiny had he not eventually allowed them to leave it in.

He is a technical genious, but as Nessus points out below, I think Carmack was making a poor game design decision by not originally wanting to include physics.

Carmack is a luminary and still one of the most important guys in the industry. In my eye's his weak point is in games design, it seems the less he is involved the better. I love to read his Quakecon speeches, if anyone knows where I can find a transcript of the last 2 I'm missing those. (text not video)

edit: ok, this is what i found so far:

http://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-1488.html

It's never really been clear whether Carmack's views are his own personal approach to games, or what he thinks ALL games should be. If the latter then he is, indeed, being left behind. However, we do need games of both types (for instance, I doubt many puzzle games would be improved by the addition of an in-depth story).

Very good points. If he really thinks that all games should be dumb and simple like the ones he makes, then he maybe should just leave the gaming industry and divert all his genius to his spaceships. (Maybe not though, because I'm sure some great games will come of his new engine...plus I loved Doom 3 for the first few hours....) If he, on the other hand, thinks there should be variety in the industry, with the smart and the stupid (with him doing his part in providing the stupid), then I agree with him and think he should keep on trucking.

One quote I read somewhere was I think him saying that he thought there shouldn't have been a physics engine in Doom 3, because physics really are just a gimmick. If he said that, then that was a stupid thing to say, because I don't at all see how physics are any more of a gimmick the real-time lighting and normal mapping (in other words: not at all).

I think Id would be better off if Johnny had no creative say in their games, and they just stuck him in a room to do the programming. :grin:

The following Link shows up as adult content in Websense, so it may or may not be safe for work. I think because it had "Sexuality" in the thread title :confused:
http://www.tfproject.org/dev/showthread.php?p=1627086

http://forumplanet.gamespy.com/rants_n_raves/b49983/19715444/p1/
John Carmack as smart as he is, and I have nothing but respect and admiration for the guy did say that he saw no reason for physics in DOOM 3 and finially was convinced by the rest of the staff. He saw it as a gimmick at that point.

http://www.doom3portal.com/articles/review/page2.php
But besides amazing visuals, the Doom 3 engine features other things that look brilliant in their bump-mapped glory. One thing that, great as it is, was given surprisingly little time, was the physics engine. Rather than using the Havoc engine like every other game manufacturer seems to be doing nowadays (glances over at Valve and Bungie), Doom 3 features an in-house physics engine, written by id's Jan Paul van Waveren, which can easily be compared in quality to the famed Havoc engine. Rag-dolls are in there, but you don't get to enjoy them for too long because, as soon as demon hits the ground (or sometimes even before that) it burns away in a cool effect. It only works for demons, which is cool, and makes sense: they're going back to hell. This is, of course, to free memory. Zombies don't burn away, but gib easily. One physics gimmick that bugged me for not being there was realist glass fracturing physics. Carmack was against it from the beginning, and I guess he won the argument, because now glass fracturing looks like something out of Quake 2: glass breaks up into little triangles. This is really the only sub-par looking effect in the game. Thankfully, there isn't too much breaking glass. I can see why it was left out, though; Doom 3 eats up enough performance as it is.

ok finally, i remember this quote verbatim now:

http://www.techimo.com/forum/general-gaming-discussion/44218-i-think-i-have-lost-hope-doom-iii-2.html

Quotes of John Carmack :

"I'm not a proponent of rag-doll physics, but [programmer] Jan Paul van Waveren went ahead and did it, and it's good, and it's a crowd pleaser. Clearly it's a gimmick, but it's popular...and thats an example of me making a bad call."

Sang

07-15-2008, 03:09 PM

HL2 is also great because of Havoc. Where would it be without Havoc for physics?

I was originally going to post a reply here, but let's not argue about HL2 AGAIN. Stop bringing it and BioShock up all the time man, I'm sure you've played other games :p

Echo Black

07-15-2008, 03:09 PM

Carmack's game design ideas are perceived as oudated because he prefers oldschool gameplay, and it ends up showing. But he does realize this - He will probably never again work as a game designer.

Gryph

07-15-2008, 04:57 PM

Well Carmack is right about rag doll physics. I think in general rag doll deaths suck.

Blue Lightning

07-15-2008, 05:07 PM

I was originally going to post a reply here, but let's not argue about HL2 AGAIN. Stop bringing it and BioShock up all the time man, I'm sure you've played other games :p

I didnt bring up anything. That post I made was in response to a long string of posts talking about how Carmack has influenced Half Life 2, and I was trying to point out that the game has other influences. Please read the posts in context, and dont try to start a flame.

Thanks.

Wamplet

07-15-2008, 05:13 PM

Well Carmack is right about rag doll physics. I think in general rag doll deaths suck.

OMGryph! In what way?

Some games certainly don't take the time to handle clipping as well as other games do (Postal 2 :o). Is that what you mean? :confused:

Gryph

07-15-2008, 05:27 PM

It just looks so unnatural. I hate that floppy attribute. Some games do it well but some done.

Euphoria is going to change everything though so that's awesome.

timothy2

07-15-2008, 06:35 PM

Ragdoll just sucks, Euphoria for the win!

Hammer easiest editor ever? Hahaha I tried it and Unrealed beats it by million times. Specially now that it lets you edit in Additive mode for the slow people that couldn't understand the substractive concept.

Gabrobot

07-15-2008, 06:43 PM

In my eye's his weak point is in games design, it seems the less he is involved the better.

I have to disagree with that...he was only involved in the tech side of Doom 3 yet people seem to point at it as a low point for id's gameplay design. On the flip side he was involved in the gameplay for id Mobile's games, Doom RPG, Orcs and Elves, ect. which have been widely heralded for their gameplay.

peoplessi

07-15-2008, 06:52 PM

Doom RPG is one of the only mobile games I bought for being good. Well designed all over. I hope the Wolfenstein mobile game is even better.

John

07-15-2008, 07:40 PM

I didnt bring up anything. That post I made was in response to a long string of posts talking about how Carmack has influenced Half Life 2, and I was trying to point out that the game has other influences. Please read the posts in context, and dont try to start a flame.

Thanks.

All you do is talk about HL2 though.

Nessus

07-15-2008, 07:46 PM

I have to disagree with that...he was only involved in the tech side of Doom 3 yet people seem to point at it as a low point for id's gameplay design.

My memory tells me otherwise. I remember his team being unhappy with his input. I think it was him who decided there would be no use key for example and we know he was against having the physics so that shows he was involved. The cell phone stuff he is probably great at but I think he messes up modern shooters, I don't think he's even into them.

Commando Nukem

07-15-2008, 07:47 PM

Wamplet: Any quote on that? Since every single game has to have physics of some sort, well not _every_, but FPS games.

Well, it doesn't. It surely has it roots there, but it isn't the same.

I wouldn't go as far to say it is the easiest level editor. I can't really tell which one you mean, the Worldcraft or Hammer?

The only major difference between the two is the NAME. They are the same exact editor, each version has tweaked the previous, but its the same thing everytime.

Gabrobot

07-15-2008, 09:55 PM

My memory tells me otherwise. I remember his team being unhappy with his input. I think it was him who decided there would be no use key for example and we know he was against having the physics so that shows he was involved. The cell phone stuff he is probably great at but I think he messes up modern shooters, I don't think he's even into them.

The no-use-key GUI system is one of Doom 3's better points, so I'm not sure what that proves. The gameplay would be more or less the same, it's just simpler and more streamlined as it stands right now. The comment also dates back to like 2001...is that seriously the strongest evidence that Carmack was involved in Doom 3's gameplay?

And the physics thing just weakens your point...there are physics in Doom 3, so he obviously wasn't the one making those calls. :p

On a side note about the physics issue, Carmack's opposition was because he didn't think it was worth the effort to develop, not so much that he was opposed to the gameplay implications (he has talked about how physics should be used in a substantial way to enhance gameplay which is why he doesn't think much of physics hardware...unlike graphics which can be scaled without effecting gameplay, the same cannot be said about gameplay affecting physics).

It's also worth noting that almost everyone at id Software wanted to make Doom 3...that wasn't Carmack's decision. It was because two of the other id owners (one of them being Adrian Carmack, who was fired a couple years ago) disagreed that Carmack threatened to quit if they didn't make another Doom game. He was backing up the rest of the company, not a personal opinion. Keep in mind that technologically he would've been fine with either a closed in-doors kind of game or a wide open one since he was poised to choose between developing a real-time lighting focused engine, or a virtual texture (aka Megatexture) focused engine. His tech decision followed the game idea, not vice-versa.

razgriz

07-16-2008, 12:17 AM

Another John D. Carmack fan here.

This man helped usher in the first person shooter and molded history in the computer gaming industry.

I'm almost done reading Masters of Doom and I enjoyed reading on Carmack's views of the industry.

Blue Lightning

07-16-2008, 12:17 AM

All you do is talk about HL2 though.

How can I not? This (the 2000's) is the Half Life era, just like the 90's were the DooM era. A lot of subjects are linked to HL2 and the HL series in general. Should I not mention that Carmacks engine was a major code source for HL's Goldsource engine? This is a Carmack thread after all.

razgriz

07-16-2008, 12:20 AM

How can I not? This (the 2000's) is the Half Life era, just like the 90's were the DooM era. A lot of subjects are linked to HL2. Should I not mention that Carmacks engine was a major code source for HL's Goldsource engine? This is a Carmack thread after all.

True.

The Quake engine really set the ground for most modern first person shooters.

From the obscure (Kingpin Life of Crime) to the triple A (Half-Life).

Sayantan

07-16-2008, 12:26 AM

JC is over-rated. Period.

But yeah, he's a good person and deserves the respect. :love:

Blue Lightning

07-16-2008, 12:28 AM

True.

The Quake engine really set the ground for most modern first person shooters.

From the obscure (Kingpin Life of Crime) to the triple A (Half-Life).

Yeah, but Carmack said somewhere that he saw some old Quake II code lines in the Source engine (HL2) when he took a look at it. I don't know...I think Source is too far from Goldsource (HL1) to be giving John too much credit for Source. I would say though (as someone said earlier) that Source has some features that were derived from Goldsource, so mabey John gets a little credit for HL2, but damn little. I would give him credit more for helping to start the HL series in general though.

But for the cons...he missed the boat somewhat on Doom III. I'm not talking about it's lacking gameplay features, and I'm not talking about it's stupendous graphics. I'm talking about he should of worked more on the games physics and less on graphics. He didn't see that coming. That is one big reason HL2 killed Doom III in '04. John missed what was nessacary for todays games...Newell did not. Thats a fact.

Commando Nukem

07-16-2008, 12:31 AM

Should I not mention that Carmacks engine was a major code source for HL's Goldsource engine? This is a Carmack thread after all.

No you shouldn't because we already mentioned and discussed it previously.

I don't know...I think Source is too far from Goldsource to be giving John too much credit for Source. I would say though (as someone said earlier) that Source has some features that were derived from Goldsource, so mabey John gets a little credit for HL2, but damn little. .

Quake is his baby. The HL series at its core uses that. Period. Without John Carmack, you have no Quake engine. Without a Quake engine, the original Half Life that was designed in 1997 would not have existed, and "Gold Source" (Its modified Quake 2 tech regardless of any 'unique' name you put on it) would never have been developed, because no such platform to build on would not have existed. Thusly, no HL2, because Valve never had a major opportunity to push immersive gameplay with Quakes power at the time.

But for the cons...he missed the boat somewhat on Doom III. I'm not talking about it's lacking gameplay features, and I'm not talking about it's stupendous graphics. I'm talking about he should of worked more on the games physics and less on graphics. He didn't see that coming. That is one big reason HL2 killed Doom III in '04. John missed what was nessacary for todays games...Newell did not. Thats a fact.

Someone has already covered this and why your conclusion is false.

What could would any additional physics do the game? None. Doom 3 was not a major success, but it still enjoyed enough success that Hollywood felt a movie was in order once again.

Blue Lightning

07-16-2008, 12:37 AM

No you shouldn't because we already mentioned and discussed it previously.

Quake is his baby. The HL series at its core uses that. Period. Without John Carmack, you have no Quake engine. Without a Quake engine, the original Half Life that was designed in 1997 would not have existed, and "Gold Source" (Its modified Quake 2 tech regardless of any 'unique' name you put on it) would never have been developed, because no such platform to build on would not have existed. Thusly, no HL2, because Valve never had a major opportunity to push immersive gameplay with Quakes power at the time.

Disagree. VALVe would of come up with something else I think. Gabe Newell and Mike Harrington were no slouches. They just got finished working at microsoft as major devs, and what they did to modify Quake showed what they had. It might not been as good without John, so yeah John gets credit.

What could would any additional physics do the game. None. Doom 3 was not a major success, but it still enjoyed enough success that Hollywood felt a movie was in order once again.

Hollywood always feels the need for a videogame movie :rolleyes:, and Uwe Bowles is easy to contract.

What could would any additional physics do the game. None.

Are you kidding? Yeah, HL2 won it's awards mainly because of it's story, and it's amazing gameplay elemnts, enviroments and level design and so forth. But do not suppose that Havoc physics (out of Ireland), and the major tweaking of it by Newell, didnt have something to do with it's success. People were wowed by it's physics...still are.

Another Duke Fan

07-16-2008, 01:05 AM

JC is over-rated. Period.

But yeah, he's a good person and deserves the respect. :love:

John is everything but "a good person", whatever this stays for. He is an exceptional human being with broad range of skills, way beyond graphics and coding. His focus on things in life and prioritization are incredible. He loves to keep things simple and does believe that in gaming "less is more" as far as complexity goes. I do admire and share his views and ideas on many different subjects, most of all his rational approach towards life in general. Precisely this is what makes him adored by most, or hated, e.g. misunderstood and envied by many. Study, learn, know and face it. It is worth it.

Commando Nukem

07-16-2008, 01:11 AM

Disagree. VALVe would of come up with something else I think. Gabe Newell and Mike Harrington were no slouches. They just got finished working at microsoft as major devs, and what they did to modify Quake II showed what they had. It might not been as good without John, so yeah John gets credit.

Dissagree all you like. What I said remains. They didnt do much of anything to Quake II in terms of the engines functionality for the original HL. Skeletal animation and with that the scripted sequence capability was just about the only major change.

Hollywood always feels the need for a videogame movie :rolleyes:, and Uwe Boll's is easy to contract.

They didnt with Doom, and Duke Nukem, and Quake. One because of Columbine and the other because the rights expired before they could rush it out and make a buck. Quake they just couldnt get off the ground. Hollywood doesnt just make a movie to make a movie. They try to take advantadge of a games hype.

Are you kidding? Yeah, HL2 won it's awards mainly because of it's story, and it's amazing gameplay elemnts, enviroments and level design and so forth. But do not suppose that Havoc physics (out of Ireland), and the major tweaking of it by Newell, didnt have something to do with it's success. People were wowed by it's physics...still are.

Newell didnt tweak it, and you ignored the context of what I was saying. Based on what Doom3 FINALLY was, no additional physics would have helped the game.

The physics in Doom3 did exactly what was needed of them and no more. HL2 had a gameplay element (the gravity gun) that required extensive physics. Doom 3 didnt. When the grabber was added in ROE and the physics extended, it was called a "cheap gimmick."

MeatWagon

07-16-2008, 03:32 AM

^I hate these gay little arguments about Quake - Half-life - Source connection, get over it guys :p

http://kotaku.com/5025229/carmack-talks-from-idea-to-mac-gaming-and-ps3-programming
Dont know if this has been posted yet but an interesting interview none the less.

Sayantan

07-16-2008, 04:01 AM

^I hate these gay little arguments about Quake - Half-life - Source connection, get over it guys :p

Yeah, the condom is already wet. Throw it out. :P

Destructor

07-16-2008, 04:22 AM

But for the cons...he missed the boat somewhat on Doom III. I'm not talking about it's lacking gameplay features, and I'm not talking about it's stupendous graphics. I'm talking about he should of worked more on the games physics and less on graphics. He didn't see that coming. That is one big reason HL2 killed Doom III in '04. John missed what was nessacary for todays games...Newell did not. Thats a fact.

Pfft, physics. Yes, the physics play an important part in Half-Life 2 but it isn't the only thing that makes the game good (or great as you like to state so much). There's the story, atmosphere, action and all the other elements that, combined, make it an enjoyable experience. Take the physics out of the finished product and there would probably be a hole, but if Valve designed the game without physics in mind it would probably be just as good. Valve is what makes it's games good, not particular features. A game is more than the sum of it's parts.

JackpotDen

07-16-2008, 05:40 AM

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/1101/whatwouldcarmackdoau7.jpg

What would carmack do?

Another Duke Fan

07-16-2008, 05:52 AM

Kick some ass, I guess.

peoplessi

07-16-2008, 07:02 AM

JC is over-rated. Period.

But yeah, he's a good person and deserves the respect. :love:

What counts as being overrated? I really can't see how, you now, there is big respect for all the guys behind things. But John Carmack is one of those that willingly spends time to talk his visions. You know, just saying he is over-rated isn't enough, you should base that argument on something.

The Stinger

07-16-2008, 07:17 AM

IMO Carmack is a great programmer, but hes Oliver Hardy without Stan Laurel.
He makes great engines, but the games id makes with them are lacking to say the least. This penny arcade comic sums up what I think about every game released after quake 1: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/5/24/e32k2-now-with-more-doom/

If he had someone like say.. I dunno.. John Romero, then the games would be fantastic and instant classics. Too bad John left id, they were a great team.

Valve-
Used Quake engine -- Source is a quake copy cat in everyway, and Half-Life used Quake at its core. 80% of the lifetime of the original Half Life came from mods like TFC, CS, DOD, and NS. You will note three of them were picked up by Valve and packaged. Valve has a good business model, no doubt about that...

Half Life 1 uses the GoldSrc (or Goldsource) engine, which is a heavily modified version of QuakeWorld engine, in which term is a modified version of the Quake engine. GoldSrc also has a few fixes from the Quake 2 engine. Although the life time of HL1 is mainly thanks to the modding community, you can't forget the commercial expansion like Opposing Force and Blue Shift.

peoplessi

07-16-2008, 07:26 AM

Commando Nukem has some fixation on the issue, I wouldn't bother argumenting with him.

Blue Lightning

07-16-2008, 08:20 AM

Newell didnt tweak it, and you ignored the context of what I was saying. Based on what Doom3 FINALLY was, no additional physics would have helped the game.

Sure it could have helped. Adding a total physics system would of meant that Doom III could of included more gameplay elements. So VALVe got the Havoc software from Ireland. But if Newell didn't tweak it then who did? It was tweaked heavily for HL2. I guess the Havoc software is considered a "sub-engine" of Source?

The physics in Doom3 did exactly what was needed of them and no more. HL2 had a gameplay element (the gravity gun) that required extensive physics. Doom 3 didnt. When the grabber was added in ROE and the physics extended, it was called a "cheap gimmick."

Wrong. Your missing the point. A total physics system for Source meant much more than just playing with the gravity gun. When any object was disturbed by explosions, or bullets, or anything else, those objects would act in accordence with gravitational laws. Also, your forgetting the other benifit you get from a total physics system besides gravity...and that's boyencey. I doubt that Water Hazard could of been what it was without realistic boyencey.

I'm just saying that is good as Carmack was (and is), the trails he was blazing in the 90's were not being blazed anymore by the mid 2000's. But well see how Rage turns out :)

And I agree with Stinger...Romero and Carmack = a hell of a team.

The Stinger

07-16-2008, 08:32 AM

Sure it could have helped. Adding a total physics system would of meant that Doom III could of included more gameplay elements.

Doom 3 is a basic FPS. Shoot the monsters, get the key end the level.
Adding a more advance physics engine wouldn't change that.

Drazula

07-16-2008, 08:41 AM

Wamplet,

Just to clarify the whole "Carmack hates physics" thing. They were specific to rag doll and glass shattering. Its like saying someone doesn't like a particular model hates 3D.

Carmack didn't like the glass shattering physics because it brought a CPU to its knees. It was supposed to create a vacuum effect (imagine a window on the space station breaking). They could not get the framerate to acceptable levels. And he was flat out wrong on the rag doll (for 2004 anyway).

And Doom 3 did have complete physics. It had a physics gun in the expansion pack. I like it better than the original Doom 3.

Wamplet

07-16-2008, 08:56 AM

FireFly

07-16-2008, 09:36 AM

Dissagree all you like. What I said remains. They didnt do much of anything to Quake II in terms of the engines functionality for the original HL. Skeletal animation and with that the scripted sequence capability was just about the only major change.

Actually GoldSrc was based on the Quake 1, not the Quake 2, engine; I recall reading that about 70% of the engine's code was modified.

"It is fundamentally just a heavily modified Quake 1 engine. There are about 50 lines of code from the Quake 2 engine, mostly bugs fixes to hard problems that Carmack found and fixed before we ran into them.

At its core, it's a Quake 1 engine. You can tell this by comparing Half-life's map compiling tools with those shipped with Quake1. You'll find very minor differences -- none of them are fundamental. The core rendering is architecturally identical to Quake1, the only "significant" change is removing the fixed palette, making map lighting RGB instead of 8 bit, and converting software rendering to be 16 bit color instead of 8 bit color, which was pretty easy and only required minor code changes.

Our skeletal animation system is new, though it was heavily influenced by the existing model rendering code, as were a lot of our updated particle effects, though less so with our beam system. Decals are totally new, our audio system has some major additions to what already existed, and at ship time our networking was almost totally Quake1 / QuakeWorld networking but about a year later Yahn rewrote most of all of it to be very different in design.

The most highly changed sections are the game logic; ours being written in C++ and Quake's being in written interpreted "Quake C". Our AI system is very very different from anything in Quake, and there's a lot of other significant architectural changes in the whole server and client implementations, though if you look hard enough you can find a few remnants of some nearly unmodified Quake1 era entities buried in places.

Jay Stelly adds, "We also took PAS from QW and/or Q2 and a couple of other minor routines I can remember (no more than 100-200 lines of code there). There was some feature overlap (as Ken mentions) like game code DLLs and colored lighting, but we developed our own solutions to those independent of Q2."
So there it is. This should put some arguments to rest. Half-Life is based on Quake 1, although it has a very small amount of Quake 2 code. Yahn notes that "we did use some of the winsock functions from Q2, that's about it. Probably more than 50 lines, but nothing too interesting."

http://web.archive.org/web/20070301012630/http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?go=q1_or_q2

FireFly

07-16-2008, 10:01 AM

Just a reminder that this is a discussion about Carmack, not about other forum members.

Blue Lightning

07-16-2008, 10:05 AM

Ok, then I'll rephrase.

That's some great info you just posted. Thanks for that. :) So in the end, when Goldsource was finally released, it had little in common with Quake 1 anymore...mabey only 30% was original Quake code, the rest being re-written or heavily modified although that is still significant. So it would be fair to say that Quake 1 provided the blueprint for VALVe to create Goldsource...agreed?

EDIT: Firefly, John Carmacks quote in your sig is not a proper sentence. I'm not trying to be a smart arse but I don't know what he is saying in that quote.

JackpotDen

07-16-2008, 11:46 AM

timothy2

07-16-2008, 04:18 PM

Wamplet,

And Doom 3 did have complete physics. It had a physics gun in the expansion pack. I like it better than the original Doom 3.

That's right, they had the gravity gun first than anyone, not released, but they coded it and had the idea first. It was only implemented later.

And to clarify my stance, ragdoll SUCKS.

Damien_Azreal

07-16-2008, 04:24 PM

To be honest it wasn't a gravity gun, it was a tool they used to mess up the levels after Hell invades. Something they never made a model for, but allowed them to toss around objects and destroy the world.

But yes, the basic idea is the same as the Gravity Gun or Grabber gun.

Blue Lightning

07-16-2008, 05:02 PM

That's right, they had the gravity gun first than anyone, not released, but they coded it and had the idea first. It was only implemented later.

And the HL2 Alpha had it before that.

Damien_Azreal

07-16-2008, 05:03 PM

Was that really needed.

The Stinger

07-16-2008, 05:15 PM

Was that really needed.

Both comments about who got what first are childish. :mryuck:

peoplessi

07-16-2008, 05:19 PM

Who cares, I don't really see that gun as the biggest selling point or innovation in HL2. Honestly, I would have been happy without it also :)

KO Gilligan

07-16-2008, 06:24 PM

Who cares, I don't really see that gun as the biggest selling point or innovation in HL2. Honestly, I would have been happy without it also :)

Ye I play a bit of HL2 --- in the game and online that item is a bit of a nuisance... it is a gimmick and it distracts from good strategy just like the big missile launcher that destroys half of the map - it's more fun without it.

Regarding gimmicks in general, I can understand the Carmack perspective... I'm a Serious Sam fan and I'd be willing to bet when the new game comes out, it will have better and more immersive play yet still be free of these types of gimmicks. For me Innovative means something a bit like the beautiful maps they created when Unreal first came out.

Alot of the improvements of gameplay is little more than gimmicks and I would like to see more creative map design and more graphical detail. Immersive gameplay is OK but it is overrated. Interesting puzzles are still just puzzles. A complicated storyline is just extra information.

Pansa

07-16-2008, 07:30 PM

Immersive gameplay is OK but it is overrated.
i strongly disagree, for me immersion is THE achievment that came with better grafics. not just watching the screen with bright bleeps, but being IN the game is the point of gaming (for me)

Damien_Azreal

07-16-2008, 07:35 PM

*psst*

John Carmack.... thread about him. Not HL2. Please. :)

timothy2

07-16-2008, 08:12 PM

And the HL2 Alpha had it before that.

Aww you're so predictable ;)

Blue Lightning

07-16-2008, 08:23 PM

I think it comes down to Rage. That will show us if Carmack has "still got it" or not. However, no matter what he does or does not do, what he has already contributed to gaming is immense.

Damien_Azreal

07-16-2008, 08:29 PM

I think the trailer last year, and the E3 trailer this year shows that Carmack still has it when it comes to tech.
The visuals in the E3 trailer were amazing.

razgriz

07-16-2008, 09:44 PM

Even I have to say, Rage has caught my attention.

I trust John Carmack to deliver a quality product.

Gryph

07-17-2008, 03:10 AM

I would like to take this post to commend the other id software programmers' work which gets lumped into Carmack worship. :p

Kristian Joensen

07-17-2008, 05:40 AM

Yes, cheers to Jan Paul Van Waveren, Robert Duffy and all the rest.

Sayantan

07-17-2008, 06:39 AM

This was exactly my point when I said he's over-rated. So many programmers in the scene is also as talented AS WELL.

peoplessi

07-17-2008, 06:43 AM

This was exactly my point when I said he's over-rated. So many programmers in the scene is also as talented AS WELL.

I can't see how that lessens the impact Carmack has given, people don't consider him as a pure coder, but more of a visionary type of guy. Very outspoken, and he is one of those guys that can say "now we do this and in nextgen we will do this". You need to have that "vision" to "know", what is needed, what can be done, what is your goal.

That's not taking away anything from the other guys. You know, it's not only the programmers, it's the whole collaborative effort to get stuff out.

ZuljinRaynor

07-17-2008, 02:24 PM

Carmack is in my opinion the most legendary video game person and my favorite. I think id is the most legendary studio too.

Damien_Azreal

07-17-2008, 03:22 PM

Apogee is the most legendary studio. They helped form and shape id into what they are now.

Another Duke Fan

07-17-2008, 03:36 PM

Apogee is the most legendary studio. They helped form and shape id into what they are now.

Hmm ;), Masters of Doom anyone?

http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Doom-Created-Transformed-Culture/dp/0812972155/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_1_txt?pf_rd_p=304485601&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-2&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0375505245&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0S47D88ZQMVET9Y7CNQX

Damien_Azreal

07-17-2008, 05:11 PM

Sitting on my shelf. :)

predefined

07-17-2008, 05:56 PM

This was exactly my point when I said he's over-rated. So many programmers in the scene is also as talented AS WELL.

How does that, in anyway changes the fact that Carmack has made great history and accomplished many things to be proud of?

Blue Lightning

07-17-2008, 08:21 PM

I would like to take this post to commend the other id software programmers' work which gets lumped into Carmack worship. :p

LOL that's true. Usually when someone is being praised as genius, there is one or two others behind the scenes that also deserve credit as well.

Another Duke Fan

07-18-2008, 12:21 AM

LOL that's true. Usually when someone is being praised as genius, there is one or two others behind the scenes that also deserve credit as well.

That is not true. There is major difference between the so called "genius" and these "others behind the scenes". The truth is simple and may appear rough to some. Always think, without whom the company will cease to exist? Usually, these are not more than 1-2 individuals per company in this type of industry. These individuals are the core and they can not be just replaced. Of course the others "behind the scenes" are important too, because they will do their part of the job and they will be praised for that. However, they can be replaced without major impact to the whole. Think, who deserves to be praised most and why is that? You may say, yeah, but this is unfair to all these "others behind scenes". No, it is not unfair and as long as everyone would be able to understand his personal value and contribution.