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Guest
10-26-2000, 10:59 PM
Perhaps this is just another repeat of a beat to death topic, but a thought just occurred to me. Is 3DR really doing this whole "when its done" "no screen shots" "no real information" for us the gamers or for the competition. I am starting to believe that it is more likely that 3DR is trying to keep its competitors from hearing about all the bells and whistles of DNF so they cannot be copied or added into other games. No crime there, just good business. Sorry if this has already been discussed, it's getting harder and harder to have an original post her as you can probably see.

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"You can't polish a turd"
Stephen King

bsbuckeye21
10-26-2000, 11:33 PM
I'd accept this as a perfectly good excuse not to - but I honestly don't buy the whole "we can't reveal more because everyone would be begging for more". Well, they've already revealed some, and so we're begging for more (in a span of a year!)

Begging for more in 2 months, sure. But man, a year!

*sigh*
/me loads up Rune demo

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Guest
10-26-2000, 11:55 PM
I agree!
The whole "hush*hush" type of media block out is very old! This game has been "IN-HIDING" for some time now!

It's one thing to give out information about EVERYTHING in a game, cuz that kills games.

=>To simpley remain "hush*hush", but still release a SCREENSHOT to show off the pretty graphics, THATS COOL!!!! Cuz the game wont be spoiled, and it will jsut get us even more excited!!!

THAT WAY, WE ALL WIN!!!!

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To resist is to piss in the wind, anyone who does will end up smelling

Guest
10-27-2000, 07:12 AM
Yeah, and like I've said before, 3DR can release screenshots and other things that wouldn't ruin the game, but still please some of the fans. But it's their decision, and we should know by now that we can't convince them to be more open.

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THIS IS A TEST OF THE EMERGENCY SIGNATURE BROADCASTING SYSTEM. THIS IS ONLY A TEST, I REPEAT THIS IS ONLY A TEST.

Drazula
10-27-2000, 07:39 AM
You guys are too quick to accept 3DR's decision and their reasoning behind it.

There is no reason they cannot release a screenshot or two. It has nothing to do with the competition. The competition cannot make much out of a screen shot since it cannot capture gameplay.

3DRs reasoning on this is feeble.

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I've been trying to change the world for years, but they just won't give me the source code....

Razorback
10-27-2000, 07:47 AM
WID, it should be WIRED (When Is It Really Ever Done?) I used to stop by often, but it's the same O' Bucket of Crap. Nothin' Nada!

Oh well, maybe I'll stop back in a couple of months. Who cares anymore. It's getting were the name (Nukem) makes me cringe!

I know these guy's are the best but damn GB. Have we figured how long is too long.

But, if your intensions are to make a patch free game, I commend ya'!

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[This message has been edited by Razorback (edited 10-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Razorback (edited 10-27-2000).]

Ajaxx
10-27-2000, 10:47 AM
There is no conspiracy. 3DR has said many times before that they wanted to keep the developement of DNF under wraps mainly because of the competition.

Wowing the fans with never-before seen, kick-ass content is just an added bonus. Anybody who believes that 3DR is doing this just for the fans is flattering/torturing himself.

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Ajaxx
ICQ#15069804
I know why you wanna hate me...cuz hate is all the world has even seen lately--Fred Durst

Joe Siegler
10-27-2000, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Perhaps this is just another repeat of a beat to death topic<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There is no reason they cannot release a screenshot or two.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yes there is - you just don't want to believe it. That's obvious. The reason is simple. We don't want to. Period.

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Joe Siegler - Webmaster, 3D Realms
---
Got a Duke Nukem Forever Question?
GO READ THE FAQ BEFORE YOU POST ABOUT IT! (http://www.dukeworld.com/faq/dukeforever/index.html)
Click here for info on how to use this UBB (http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/faq.html)

Madness
10-27-2000, 01:45 PM
My take on this (flame me if u will, I could care, but then I'd be lying):

3DR stopped giving out specific details right after they released the latest screen shots. They prolly did this because they fully realized that their game wouldn't be out for quite some time and that other developers would "borrow" their wiz bang ideas. Other developers can punch out games much quicker, therefore they could implement new ideas (that could be stolen) quicker as well.

3DR might be slow in the game developing business. But, you have to realize that the last game they produced was very simple compared to games being produced today. They must of had a huge learning curve to get up to speed with producing a game in todays technology.



[This message has been edited by Madness (edited 10-27-2000).]

X-Vector
10-27-2000, 01:49 PM
Joe, Drazula has already stated that, alhough he dislikes the viewpoints of the 3DR team on the whole WID and media blackout policy, that he IS a fan of the Duke games, and that should give him enough reason and credibility to post and reply here.
I personally have no problem with Drazula, he certainly isn't simply a flaming troll that just wants to get on everyone's nerves just for the sake of it.
That doesn't mean you and I have to agree on (all of) what he's saying of course.
And yeah, he is constantly repeating himself, but so is everyone else here (including me and you), that's just a natural effect of the status quo at this forum.
Besides, if it isn't him complaining about WID etc. here, it will be somebody else.
But c'mon, when the Big Day comes, we'll all have forgotten about the moaning, the whining and the bickering. http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/images/icons/wink.gif

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"I have found some kind of temporary sanity in this..." - Maynard James Keenan, Tool

smattbac
10-27-2000, 02:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Undead:
=>To simpley remain "hush*hush", but still release a SCREENSHOT to show off the pretty graphics, THATS COOL!!!! Cuz the game wont be spoiled, and it will jsut get us even more excited!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure, you can get more excited by looking at a couple a screenshots. But it doesn't say anything about the game. A screenshot doesn't say anything really. So, insted, you start to speculate and guessing that this and this must be in it and it will be like this and that blah blah...and when you finally get the game it's nothing like you expected it to be and you will be all dissapointed.

/me remembers Time To Kill... http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/images/icons/rolleyes.gif



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A dying man needs to die, as a sleepy man needs to sleep, and there comes a time when it is wrong, as well as useless, to resist.

Drazula
10-27-2000, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>he IS a fan of the Duke games, and that should give him enough reason and credibility to post and reply here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly X-Vector (and thank you),

I think Joe doesn't see how someone can like a product but not like the creators. Which makes sense, from his point of view, since 3DR has been living and breathing Duke Nukem for years now. It is who they are.

But we've gone through this discussion before in this thread (http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/003714.html) started by Dark Fury. It is possible to be Pro Duke, Anti 3DR. I am living proof. http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/images/icons/wink.gif

BTW, I have never had a problem with WID, but I understand why people think it is a flimsy cop-out (we need to have more patience with these folks, the same patience with give 3DR).

Thanks again, X-Vector...


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I've been trying to change the world for years, but they just won't give me the source code....

X-Vector
10-27-2000, 03:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Drazula:
BTW, I have never had a problem with WID, but I understand why people think it is a flimsy cop-out (we need to have more patience with these folks, the same patience with give 3DR).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do have 'patience' with people who voice their concerns in a reasonable manner, but I have none whatsoever for flamer wannabies that act like 9 year old spoilt brats and seem to think that it's their god given RIGHT to get new info and screenshots from 3DR.
I have seen a few of those come and go in the short time that I've been visiting here and I won't cry over people like that getting booted from this board.
If anyone feels a desperate need to get offensive, they should post in the FYAD forum Charlie mentioned earlier (and prepare to get eaten alive http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/images/icons/wink.gif).
Anyway, my opinion is that it's better for 3DR to be perhaps too strict on the no info policy than to give in to SOME people's wishes and spoil (part of) the game for EVERYONE.
Also, I REALLY hope Infogrames will go for a worldwide release with DNF, it's really hard to ignore all kinds of spoiler info on a game when you have to wait for more than a month after the initial US release for the European version to come out (as was the case with SS2 and Deus Ex for example).



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"I have found some kind of temporary sanity in this..." - Maynard James Keenan, Tool

MB
10-27-2000, 04:18 PM
I agree with you lot. I dont want to see any new screenshots because they dont really help that much. But I have to admit it is taking along time. And another thing I agree with is that I also hope they go for a worldwide release.

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George Broussard
10-27-2000, 05:05 PM
Hurry,

>>Is 3DR really doing this whole "when its done" "no screen shots" "no real information" for us the gamers or for the competition.

Both. Why give away any edge at all to your competitors? I know when we see something cool in another game, we say "cool, thanks" and move on. No reason to tip your hand.

And no reason to spoil the game for fans either. Regardless of competition we will never post info on all the bad guys, locations or guns etc in the game.


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George Broussard, 3D Realms

wieder
10-27-2000, 05:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There is no reason they cannot release a screenshot or two. It has nothing to do with the competition. The competition cannot make much out of a screen shot since it cannot capture gameplay.

3DRs reasoning on this is feeble.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We were able to deduce almost all of No One Lives Forever's gameplay elements from the screenshots they have been releasing. I've been playing through it and am almost done and have yet to be suprised by anything in the game or have seen any gameplay elements I didn't know were coming due to the screenshots they had released.

Developers can and DO see things in the screenshots other people release and they DO take inspiration from them if they think they can use it and it will help their game.

We have no idea what Valve is doing with Team Fortress 2 anymore because they refuse to release information. If they manage to continue this we will be taken by suprise by things they do in the game and they will have the jump on those things compared to everyone else.

That you discount this aspect of releasing information so readily shows just how little you really know of this industry.

Competition is one thing though: When we were preparing to release the Unreal screenshots people were saying "Come on, just give us a few screenshots... we promise we won't complain anymore! We just want to see what it looks like in the Unreal engine! We won't ask anymore!!!!"

Well, guess what, we were back at that point within a month. So what was the point? In the long run we are probably having to deal with even MORE crap than if we hadn't released the shots at all. You certainly aren't going to be nearly as suprised by the jump in visual quality from what you had seen in the Quake version of Duke versus the Unreal version. Which is a shame, because it really is a striking difference.

You are not a customer yet. We have zero obligation to you until you have put your money down for the box that contains Duke Nukem Forever. Our customer service does NOT include giving out screenshots. You have not paid a single dime to use this forum, to look at the screenshots that have been released, or to talk with the developers. So excuse me for not giving a damn whether you dislike our current stance on marketing. Our commitment is to creating the best game we possibly can. If we do that then we have done our job, nothing we do before that matters.

If we released a screenshot tomorrow people would go crazy for a couple of weeks and then be back to begging for more and telling us how horrible we are to our "customers".

Releasing screenshots every month/every couple of weeks is absolutely the worst thing we could do. You become used to the way the game looks, you create certain expectations and fill in the holes with your own imagination. Once you get the final product it has no way of being like your imagination which always has a negative impact. We don't want you people following the game closely right now. We would prefer it if you just forgot about it until the day you see "Duke Nukem Forever gone gold!" or "Duke Nukem Forever demo released!" We are happy that so many people are excited, but we aren't happy that certain people think we owe them something. We owe you a good game for your $50. That's it. Period. End of Story. Back off buster.

So unless you want to actually provide some evidence to support your claims, I suggest you not talk where you don't actually know what you are talking about.

I've been around this topic before many times and have seen the same patterns every single time. I've heard guys say the same thing you have every single time, and they always turn up wrong. I used to think like you before I became involved in the industry and started to watch the patterns that evolved. I've since switched my tune. I don't blame you for it really, you just don't have any real experience with it from both sides of the coin evidentally.

Charlie Wiederhold

[This message has been edited by Wieder3DR (edited 10-27-2000).]

wieder
10-27-2000, 05:36 PM
Mmmm boy I like to hear myself talk.

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AL9000
10-27-2000, 05:46 PM
Holy shit, Wieder ownz.

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George Broussard
10-27-2000, 05:48 PM
Charlie,

You should save that text and we can link to it from the forum page. Two topics:

"Why no shots" and
"Why when it's done"

http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/images/icons/wink.gif


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George Broussard, 3D Realms

Guest
10-27-2000, 05:58 PM
Yeah!!!! You guys should make an official DNF FBAT (Frequently bitched about topics). And good post Wieder. You're always there to show us the error of our ways. http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif



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THIS IS A TEST OF THE EMERGENCY SIGNATURE BROADCASTING SYSTEM. THIS IS ONLY A TEST, I REPEAT THIS IS ONLY A TEST.

Xiu
10-27-2000, 06:05 PM
In a word, BS!
Now don't get me wrong! You are of course right you don't owe us nothing.
All these people asking for screenshots makes you sick, eh?!?!?!
Well i'll tell you what gets on my nerves.
People from 3DR, who are SOOOO busy, they just have to come here and tell people, to stop asking 4 info..and then TRY to insult others, subtilely, but you guys are about as subtle as a nail in the head!
Now this bitching isn't because of the lack of info. It's because you guys treat others like shit, and then tell 'em to do something else. We maybe the small people, but try this on 4 size: Without us, there is no YOU!
REMEMBER THAT!
Btw, i love you Drazula (in a non homosexual way) http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif he is, in my opinion a stand up guy, who is probably more sincere the 3DR.

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[This message has been edited by Xiu (edited 10-27-2000).]

Razorback
10-27-2000, 06:19 PM
CW3DR, you do talk too much (like me)! Just kiddin. I'll tell you what partner, this is just the best place to air our dirty laundry. You folks are excellent and we all know it, but let us have our say witout pissing you off.

We're just looking for hookers ya know! Maybe just a little jealous of ya'll, I remember that photo with the real Laura Croft, Yum Yum!

We may be a little impatient but give US a break. We're just Nukem's looking to kick tail, and yours is the only one we see wagging.

Give us a tad of respect and we probably won't return it. Nature of the beast!

We all know this game will rock and when it hits #1 we'll all be proud. Kudos to the team!

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BADGER
10-27-2000, 06:28 PM
One of the things I've loved about 3D Realms from the start (Well, from on the internet start, didn't know them when I had Terminal Velocity and such http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/images/icons/tongue.gif) is that they are a very "human" company.

They don't publish diaries, or market the shit out of their work, they just act like people. They have opinions, they have ideals and follow them.

They talk to their fans through the message board (Which quite impressed me when I joined), and their website has many things, like picture albums of days of fun(Paintball, etc), and the camera captioning contest. Lucasarts has very little customer interaction, and it's the same with other companies, their websites are just commercials for their products. 3D Realms' site is a representation of the people who work there. And I like it a lot.

And as for the comment about them "Subtly" mocking us, what did they do? Because they were stern with you, that made you upset and made you spit out that comment? I mean your parents are stern with you, they still love you. 3D Realms are telling you why they believe what they do, there is nothing aggressive in that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now this bitching isn't because of the lack of info. It's because you guys treat others like shit, and then tell 'em to do something else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are telling you that there are other things to do during the development cycle then wait for one game. It's actually a good idea, too.

How do they treat people like shit? Please, tell me, I've never felt bad or insulted after anything 3D Realms' people ever said.

BADGER
Please, do not mock the ones I love http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/images/icons/grin.gif

Drazula
10-28-2000, 12:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh yes there is - you just don't want to believe it. That's obvious. The reason is simple. We don't want to. Period.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"We don't want to." Oh, okay that explains it. That is right up there with "because" as the worlds most useless replies:


Reporter: "Mr. Hinckley, why did you shoot the President?"

Hinckley: "Because..."

Reporter: "Wow! I've got an exclusive!" (yeah right...)


Useless. And foolishly arrogant. That is a piss poor position for a company to take, especially when addressing fans. It was the same reply used for the question of releasing the Duke 3D source about a year ago (yes, I know that has changed).

I didn't like it then, I don't like it now. This is why I am no fan of 3DR.

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I've been trying to change the world for years, but they just won't give me the source code....

Joe Siegler
10-28-2000, 12:56 AM
Sorry if you feel that way then. We won't change because you feel this way.

If you're "not a fan", then why bother? If you don't like us, or the way we do things, then there's nothing here for you.

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Joe Siegler - Webmaster, 3D Realms
---
Got a Duke Nukem Forever Question?
GO READ THE FAQ BEFORE YOU POST ABOUT IT! (http://www.dukeworld.com/faq/dukeforever/index.html)
Click here for info on how to use this UBB (http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/faq.html)