Improvements to the FX engine? [Archive]

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Ninja

05-03-2002, 02:25 AM

Ok, I'd just like to hear people's comments on what they feel are the weak points of the Remedy FX engine (CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS ONLY) and what you'd like to see improved.

I think that larger outdoor areas would be good- especially as it'd allow more rooms and buildings you could enter, and more NPCs, thus making more nonlinear gameplay

Facial animations are a must and tweaks to the AI would be nice as well.

Otherwise, the particle effects of the FX engine and everything else is great images/icons/smile.gif

Oddesey

05-03-2002, 01:40 PM

Well I recon more acurate death animations? For Instance once I shot a guy in the head and he held his stomach!! LOL

SO its only ity bity little things that need changed.

As for facial animations, not bad at the moment but i suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to improve them.

I would love to see a sequal. I mean I dunno how'd they do it but whatever the storyline we want BULLET TIME! WOOOOOOOOOHOOOOO

Perhap this time MORE THOROUGH TESTING!

Co11

05-04-2002, 12:35 AM

Mirrors... gotta have mirrors.. any new gaming engine has the ability to use mirrors... and if Max-FX has any desire to be liscensed.. then they gotta be able to put mirrors in their level

biXen

05-04-2002, 12:37 AM

Well, the game is linear partly because it's a movie game, movies have one story and that's it, you are just lucky to participate in it images/icons/wink.gif

Facial stuff would be nice, also bodyily decals...doh, spelling... well, what do I care...

Wild Falkon

05-06-2002, 10:02 PM

Texture engine-animation (like water in Unreal)

Ability to create terrain

Better/different collision detection of handling weapons (The floating hands below the gun disturbed me)

Steve

05-07-2002, 12:07 AM

Facial animations is all that I can think of. Why was something that standard not included?

biXen

05-07-2002, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by Co11:
Mirrors... gotta have mirrors.. any new gaming engine has the ability to use mirrors... and if Max-FX has any desire to be liscensed.. then they gotta be able to put mirrors in their levelMirrors are extremely hard to make + are graphics intensive. So don't count on it...

SkavenRMD

05-07-2002, 03:02 AM

Facial animations is all that I can think of. Why was something that standard not included?Because we thought that since most of the dialog was going to take place in graphic novels, the effort was better spent on other things.

Facial animation is by no means *quite* yet standard (ie. appearing in pretty much every game out there), unless that silly Monty Python style mouth opening and closing actually counts as "facial animation" in your book. images/icons/smile.gif But yes, it's definitely coming up in games in the near future.

Zer0

05-07-2002, 09:42 AM

Jedi Outcast has nice facial anims.

I'd like to see 'proper' shadows.

Ninja

05-08-2002, 02:43 AM

MGS2 and FFX had superb facial animations IMO...but then again, I think that making the animations could be harder with the FX engine due to the texture base for the models, with the poly mesh on top.

SkavenRMD

05-08-2002, 03:08 AM

Jedi Outcast has nice facial anims. MGS2 and FFX had superb facial animations IMOBelieve it or not, but I feel great relief when I'm hearing this. Go figure. images/icons/wink.gif

Ninja

05-08-2002, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Jedi Outcast has nice facial anims. MGS2 and FFX had superb facial animations IMOBelieve it or not, but I feel great relief when I'm hearing this. Go figure. images/icons/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>Great relief that MP2 will totally destroy those game's great facial animations? images/icons/wink.gif

Kippla

05-09-2002, 06:57 AM

A sweet addition to add to the coolness of bullet time, would be "Kill Calculation".

As in you walk in to a room full of guys and hit the 'KC' button. Time is then pretty much frozen, and as you point round the room, trace lines will appear, and show where bullets and ricochets will go. So you can figure out a way to empty a room with a single bullet.

You then start shooting and it goes into bullet time, and you see your sweet handy work creat calculated chaos.

mmmmm

well maybe it aint the best idea, but something added in to compliment bulletime is must for the sequel me thinks.

Crim

05-09-2002, 01:31 PM

I dunno, maybe cooler weather effects? It says worst storm of the century, and the snow was falling like it would in a normal season. Post apocalyptic ashes? Colder than devil's heart? images/icons/shocked.gif
I mean, they were not BAD, but they need a little tweaking. And the snow was falling on me only, kinda like how the rain falls only on Truman Burbank, and not on others. Not bad tho. images/icons/grin.gif

Guest

05-17-2002, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Crim:
I dunno, maybe cooler weather effects? It says worst storm of the century, and the snow was falling like it would in a normal season. Post apocalyptic ashes? Colder than devil's heart? I thought more snow would've been nice too, but imagine the processing power that millions of particles of snow would need. Don't beleive me? just try running the game with and without the snow, and see the difference in framerate.

Guest

05-19-2002, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Kippla:
A sweet addition to add to the coolness of bullet time, would be "Kill Calculation".

As in you walk in to a room full of guys and hit the 'KC' button. Time is then pretty much frozen, and as you point round the room, trace lines will appear, and show where bullets and ricochets will go. So you can figure out a way to empty a room with a single bullet.

You then start shooting and it goes into bullet time, and you see your sweet handy work creat calculated chaos.

best. idea. ever.

i thought the snow was fairly weak as well. look at morrowind. the rain effects are brutal in this game. it comes down very hard. why couldnt max payne have a similar system for the snow? (i dont know how to speak technical computer stuff)

also, i wasnt impressed with enemy interaction at all. as in, shooting people never really felt satisfying. i dunno how to fix this. believe me, ive thought about it a lot. i just dont know what they did wrong. maybe the sound effects were too quiet. what do you think?

[ 05-19-2002, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Quiddity ]

SkavenRMD

05-20-2002, 12:02 AM

best. idea. ever.faer teh fna wtih dieas. graemlins/hhg.gif

i thought the snow was fairly weak as well. look at morrowind. the rain effects are brutal in this game. it comes down very hard. why couldnt max payne have a similar system for the snow? (i dont know how to speak technical computer stuff)Games that come out later are usually built for higher end machines. This also applies to Morrowind.

Even the snowstorm on top of the Aesir Building sucked in your opinion? Oh no, I suck. I suck at my job. How can I live and continue to work on games now that I know I suck? images/icons/frown.gif

How would I put this... well, considering that all the effects, from candle flames to snowstorms, were made with the ParticleFX system (our programmers dread special case programming like plague), I have to say the snow wasn't really that bad. images/icons/grin.gif

also, i wasnt impressed with enemy interaction at all. as in, shooting people never really felt satisfying. i dunno how to fix this. believe me, ive thought about it a lot. i just dont know what they did wrong. maybe the sound effects were too quiet. what do you think?Painfully aware.

(Umm.. "interaction" you say? Well yeah, in Finland the police call the criminals they arrest their "customers")

Actually this is a problem with a huge number of games out there. It's a combination of lots of factors (sound, animation, timing, visual effects, feedback, hitpoints and damage, what not) that have to be carefully tweaked to get right. Halo and especially Half-Life got pretty close to the ideal IMO. And IMPNC-RO (In My Personal, Not Company-Representing Opinion) even Soldier of Fortune didn't quite feel right even though the whole game was all about shooting people. Something was wrong with the feedback to the player. (and I'm not talking about the "realism" here. I'm talking about the "feel" of it all)

In other words, it's not about how many animations and features you can put into this aspect of the game (after all, Half-Life had just a few animations and sound effects), it's about how they are used. An art in itself.

Just don't tell your parents/friends/SO that you "liked the game except that shooting people didn't feel as good as it should", or they might re-consider a few things about you. images/icons/wink.gif

Guest

05-20-2002, 12:13 AM

great post, Skaven. btw, what i said about the snow effects was not a personal attack images/icons/grin.gif

i definetly agree with most of what you said though. halflife just felt....right, as does halo. lots of people who have played sof2 claim it is the same in this sense. lets hope, eh? images/icons/smile.gif

btw, for max payne 2, i think enemy interaction should be...improved upon. actually, there's a lot of things id like to see different, but im sure you've heard them a million times by now. so how about just do one thing id like in it?
blow me away.
i dont care how you do it, just blow me away with max payne 2.
seeya then images/icons/grin.gif

The Baskinator

05-20-2002, 12:30 AM

Just don't tell your parents/friends/SO that you "liked the game except that shooting people didn't feel as good as it should", or they might re-consider a few things about you *laughs* Man, I hate people who think video games are too violent. Those people should be shot. images/icons/grin.gif

I kid... I kid because I love.

Ninja

05-20-2002, 01:59 AM

The enemies seemed kinda TOO obvious to me i.e virtually everyone you see ingame is an enemy. More NPCs that stayed with you longer and helped you, maybe like the ones in Deus Ex would have been nice.

Cathome

05-20-2002, 10:15 AM

The thing I didnt like is about facial animation. All faces are seen as through fog and dont change lively.

SkavenRMD

05-20-2002, 11:37 AM

Quddity: btw, what i said about the snow effects was not a personal attack I know, I was just being melodramatic. images/icons/wink.gif

Cathome

05-22-2002, 06:43 AM

Originally posted by The Baskinator:
[QB]*laughs* Man, I hate people who think video games are too violent. Video games not violent but natural and realistic. I adore them! graemlins/love.gif

Dunedain

08-05-2002, 07:41 PM

Skaven,

I thought the snow on the top of the Aesir building was excellent. It really looked and felt
like one were in a snow storm, high atop a roof in New York with the wind howling and
swirling the snow and ice about as you carefully made your way around, constantly
on the lookout for lurking criminals, filled with apprehension.

Great job! images/icons/smile.gif

[ 08-05-2002, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Dunedain ]

Maddieman

08-05-2002, 10:13 PM

shooting people never really felt satisfying How about dismemberment? (http://zer0mods.bwad.org.uk/main.html)

[ 08-06-2002, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

SkavenRMD

08-06-2002, 03:12 AM

I thought the snow on the top of the Aesir building was excellent.Thank you, thank you. images/icons/grin.gif

The snowflakes have an interesting story. Snowflakes seldom travel in a straight line. Since our particle system does not support turbulence, we needed some other way to make the snowflakes flutter around. The solution was an animated bitmap sequence, with the snowflake moving around inside the bitmap area. Hoo boy, whatta kludge, but it turned out to work well without excessive memory and fillrate usage.

SkavenRMD

08-06-2002, 03:47 AM

How about dismemberment?Web site found. Waiting for reply.........<etc ad infinitum>

Seems interesting, though (I managed to catch a glimpse of it earlier today but I didn't download it back then. Darn.)

Maddieman

08-06-2002, 05:52 AM

Yeah, the website went down 10 minutes after I annouced that the mod was up graemlins/doh.gif . I wonder why? images/icons/grin.gif

Should be working now, though. Judging by the response it got from Zer0, and at MPHQ, you do not want to miss this mod . images/icons/wink.gif

Incidentally, you can read how this mod came to being, at this thread. (http://forums.3drealms.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=001572;p=0#)

Thanks for showing interest,

Maddieman

[ 08-06-2002, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

Zer0

08-06-2002, 06:46 AM

The Server went down for updating i wasn't infromed until the updating was done.

All is fixed now. check it (http://zer0mods.bwad.org.uk/main.html)

shadow fox

08-06-2002, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Co11:
Mirrors... gotta have mirrors.. any new gaming engine has the ability to use mirrors... and if Max-FX has any desire to be liscensed.. then they gotta be able to put mirrors in their levelwell i can solve the mirror problem. everone is vampires.

Bludd

08-06-2002, 07:38 PM

That katana mod is pretty cool, but the sound effect when you do some dismemberment is too much.

Too much sound, too much going on and too noisy.

Maddieman

08-06-2002, 07:46 PM

Lots of complaints about the sound.

A fixed version will be released tomorrow. You will also be able to download a patch, to save having to download it again.

A brand new feature has also been implemented. This won't appear until the next "official" release though. Top Secret!

Thanks for your comment, it's really encouraging. images/icons/smile.gif

In the mean time, if you're a modder, feel free to fix it yourself. It'll save you having to download it again.

[ 08-06-2002, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

Bludd

08-06-2002, 08:31 PM

There's one thing, though. When you dismember something (it's especially evident when you do it with a ranged weapon) you stand still for a short while. This is irritating and makes the remaining enemies hit you.

Contiune the good work, Maddieman

Maddieman

08-06-2002, 09:33 PM

Thanks for the support,

I was wondering when someone would spot that bug. Sorry, I kind of rushed the release of the mod, so I left that one in. I know what it is: in order for the character to remain in their stance during the camerapath, the controls are disabled until the death animation is finished. The katana attack is in sync with the camerapath, but the shotgun isn't. Shouldn't be too hard too fix, update this time tomorrow.

Anyway, it's a katana mod, not a shotgun one. images/icons/wink.gif

Check the website for details and updates.

Oh, Zer0 joined my team, well actually he is the team I guess. I wasn't planning on making a tc, but he has come up with something very, very, cool. There will be a teaser pic included with the update patch.

One last thing; the subject is kind of going off on a tangent. If anyone has any further comments or questions, please post them in the modding forum, there are two relevant threads up already.

Thanks!

Maddieman

Co11

08-10-2002, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />How about dismemberment?<etc ad infinitum>
<hr /></blockquote>My Skaven, you know three languages? images/icons/smile.gif

SkavenRMD

08-10-2002, 03:31 AM

What, does knowing what "gringos locos" means mean that you know Spanish? Does knowing what "perkele" means mean that you know Finnish?

biXen

08-10-2002, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
What, does knowing what "gringos locos" means mean that you know Spanish? Does knowing what "perkele" means mean that you know Finnish?OF COURSE. I know "perkele" "ei sää peittää" (with some dots here and there) and "terve iho" and I'm a leet Finnish talker images/icons/wink.gif

btw, nice ASM instrumental song winner, although I think the older Catch That Goblin is better you self-ripper images/icons/wink.gif

SirSushi

08-10-2002, 04:28 PM

i've been thinking about that enemy interaction thingy too.

i've always wondered why goldeneye (n64) "felt" much better than all those pc shooters. i mean, look at it: in goldeneye you hadn't spraying blood particles or dismembered body parts but still the weapons felt more powerful.
i can't pinpoint it but i think it's a combination of the sound when the bullet hits the enemy and the reaction of the enemy (mostly animation-wise)

Maddieman

08-10-2002, 06:20 PM

Ah! I have an opinion on this! images/icons/smile.gif

I totally agree with your point about Goldeneye, (even though you're are critising my mod as a basis of your point).

The sound defenately had something to do with the way the game 'felt'. Perhaps because you could still hit the enemies during and after their dying animations. In a lot of games, enemies become inanimate objects as soon as their death animation is finished.

By far the best aspect was the interaction between the player and the enemy characters. The game encouraged you to experiment; constantly surprising and rewarding you for your actions (anyone remember the first time a scientist gets the huff, and lobs grenade at you?), even if they resulted in mission failure. As sick as this might sound, the fact that the gaurds reacted to each and every hit (in a covincing, yet sometimes comic way) , and that you could keep 'em going until they eventually died was a novelty that many other fps didn't (and still don't) offer.

On the other hand, Max Payne isn't good because of it's enemy interaction (or lack of); it's the combat scenarios presented to the player, and characterising of enemies (almost each major firefight is preceded with enemy dialogue).

I think another reason Goldeneye 'felt' better was it's impeccable control setup. None of this mouse sensitivity stuff; it really didn't need it. The implementation of a lightgun style crosshair, while still allowing the player to move was genius.

images/icons/smile.gif

Perfect Dark promised all this and more; yet, being realistic and honest, it flopped compared to Goldeneye. Perhaps it was too ambitious; perhaps Rare were over confident and sure of themselves. People have talked to me about this before, saying "Perfect Dark should be better than Goldeneye, but for some reason, it just doesn't 'feel' right". Perfect Dark was overhyped, and was worse off for it. That's why Rare haven't released any details on the sequel, and that is why 3DRealms are using their graemlins/wid.gif strategy. If you don't know what to expect, you won't be dissapointed.

I've never really been able to convince a PC gamer about the merits of Goldeneye on the N64. But I still think that even in it's age, it still stands up as one of the best fps, ever.

Well, that's enough nostalgia for one post. images/icons/wink.gif

[ 08-10-2002, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

SkavenRMD

08-11-2002, 05:35 AM

Maddieman: That's why Rare haven't released any details on the sequel, and that is why 3DRealms are using their graemlins/wid.gif strategy. If you don't know what to expect, you won't be dissapointed. biXen: btw, nice ASM instrumental song winner, although I think the older Catch That Goblin is better you self-ripper images/icons/wink.gif Well, apparently my sequel strategy failed in this aspect with The Goblin Returns. No matter how technically improved it was, it still gets brutally compared to the original and is bound to fail in comparison. The only way to succeed would have been to make the sequel almost identical to the original, but that wouldn't have worked, either. graemlins/hhg.gif

Anyhow, yes, Maddieman, I agree with pretty much everything you had to say about GoldenEye. I haven't even tried Perfect Dark, but GoldenEye kept me glued for ages, not least for the reasons you mentioned (controls, fun interactivity ideas). Among the other things, I also found it cool how the game "generated" death screams by randomly combining a series of short grunts.

Yet another thing was the cool way the pistols worked: the gun would fire just as frequently as you could press the trigger. Just like real guns. No fixed rate of fire. Most games don't do this because they fear it may become a balance issue (rate of fire versus enemy get-hit reaction animations versus weapon damage).

One silly thing was that while you could shoot hats off soldiers, they didn't notice it at all if you did it with a silenced weapon. In the second level where you sneak in through the restroom air duct, I was aiming for a quick silent headshot to the soldier who was sitting in the booth. I shot off his hat, and he kept doing his business as if nothing had happened. Then a while later the same happened to the solider patrolling in the corridor. I shot his hat off through the window in the door and he kept on partolling. Silly. images/icons/smile.gif

SirSushi

08-11-2002, 05:44 AM

Originally posted by Maddieman:
Ah! I have an opinion on this! images/icons/smile.gif

I totally agree with your point about Goldeneye, (even though you're are critising my mod as a basis of your point).

The sound defenately had something to do with the way the game 'felt'. Perhaps because you could still hit the enemies during and after their dying animations. In a lot of games, enemies become inanimate objects as soon as their death animation is finished.

By far the best aspect was the interaction between the player and the enemy characters. The game encouraged you to experiment; constantly surprising and rewarding you for your actions (anyone remember the first time a scientist gets the huff, and lobs grenade at you?), even if they resulted in mission failure. As sick as this might sound, the fact that the gaurds reacted to each and every hit (in a covincing, yet sometimes comic way) , and that you could keep 'em going until they eventually died was a novelty that many other fps didn't (and still don't) offer.

On the other hand, Max Payne isn't good because of it's enemy interaction (or lack of); it's the combat scenarios presented to the player, and characterising of enemies (almost each major firefight is preceded with enemy dialogue).

I think another reason Goldeneye 'felt' better was it's impeccable control setup. None of this mouse sensitivity stuff; it really didn't need it. The implementation of a lightgun style crosshair, while still allowing the player to move was genius.

images/icons/smile.gif

Perfect Dark promised all this and more; yet, being realistic and honest, it flopped compared to Goldeneye. Perhaps it was too ambitious; perhaps Rare were over confident and sure of themselves. People have talked to me about this before, saying "Perfect Dark should be better than Goldeneye, but for some reason, it just doesn't 'feel' right". Perfect Dark was overhyped, and was worse off for it. That's why Rare haven't released any details on the sequel, and that is why 3DRealms are using their graemlins/wid.gif strategy. If you don't know what to expect, you won't be dissapointed.

I've never really been able to convince a PC gamer about the merits of Goldeneye on the N64. But I still think that even in it's age, it still stands up as one of the best fps, ever.

Well, that's enough nostalgia for one post. images/icons/wink.gif uh, i didn't want to critizise your mod since i haven't checked it out yet.

it would be damn cool if max payne 2 could recreate that goldeneye feeling

Maddieman

08-11-2002, 10:40 AM

I haven't even tried Perfect Dark This is my point entirely. Perfect Dark, The Sequel to Goldeneye.

Hardly anyone, except loyal N64 fans (who hadn't traded their console for a Playstation), have even heard of it.

Rare spent too much time on the engine, then they tacked the levels, story, etc, during the last year of development. The same goes for Sons of Liberty, but don't get me started on that.

Back to PD; I think the game engine was wasted on the N64, it was so complex that the game ran at about 20 fps. Even without the simulants, pure fourway multiplayer games were impossible to play. Now, for the GCN their doing something completely different (rumour says, a bit MGS), so the technology has been wasted.

After 3-4 years of hype, players were given an awesome engine that was too powerful for the console it was designed for; and some poorly designed, rushed levels that didn't have half the lifespan of the first game.

So to conclude:

Q: Why did Perfect Dark fail?

A: No Dave Doak

Maddieman

08-11-2002, 02:16 PM

Hmm...If I recall, the remote mines were in Perfect Dark also. The novelty had worn off though, (with the exception that you could now stick the mines onto enemies).

Some of the weapons were good:
the CMP 150, for example, just 'felt' right. It did get a bit stupid though, when you had about 40 weapons that all did pretty much the same thing.

Combat boosts: sorry Remedy, but Bullet Time Gameplay had already been done in PD. images/icons/wink.gif

Now that I think about it, I didn't care much for the green crosshair, either. The red one was much easier to see and respond to.

Anyway, whatever. We'll just have to wait and see what the future holds for these titles.

[ 08-11-2002, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

SkavenRMD

08-11-2002, 11:55 PM

Combat boosts: sorry Remedy, but Bullet Time Gameplay had already been done in PD. images/icons/wink.gif And before that, in Requiem. And before that, in Delta (C64). Smarty-pants. images/icons/tongue.gif

But I agree. Whatever Rare puts together, it's always something exceptional. It was so already in their Spectrum days.

SirSushi

08-12-2002, 12:32 AM

and the weapons sucked too

anyone remember the remote mines from goldeneye? me and my friend would make mine traps, kinda like you go around the corner, see that mine in front of you, shoot it (since you don't want to run into it), which would start a chain reaction making a mine you couldn't see detonate right over your head for an instant kill.

good ol' days, goldeneye MP was so much fun. images/icons/smile.gif

Maddieman

08-12-2002, 09:45 AM

And before that, in Requiem. And before that, in Delta (C64). Smarty-pants images/icons/tongue.gif With all that said, Max Payne has by far the best implementation of bullet-time gameplay yet.

GTA came close with it's adrenaline pill; I particularly liked the way the character's voices lowered in pitch. But the fact that you couldn't choose when and where to use it, severely limited it's potential.

Perfect Dark's combat boost was a bit useless; since you had to select it as a weapon, activate it, put it away, equip a new weapon and-- by then, the 10 second slow motion bonus had run out. graemlins/doh.gif

They did come up with an adequate solution to bullet-time in multiplayer though. 'Smart' slow motion was supposed to activate when players came within a certain radius of each other. Seeing as the multiplayer games ran at about 5 fps, it wasn't really needed.

Duke Nukem takin' Forever will add a new twist to this, if the adrenaline pills from the original return.

Incidently, did anyone see the 'Enter the Vertex' matrix parody in Conker's Bad fur day? It used a similar move to the Max Payne shoot dodge, where the character flipped sideways from one piller, to another.

SkavenRMD

08-13-2002, 12:23 AM

GTA came close with it's adrenaline pill; I particularly liked the way the character's voices lowered in pitch.Why, this actually happens in Max Payne as well, but within the scripts, you can specify per sound effect which samples lower in pitch as the time slows down and which don't. We just found the humans going "mooooo" or "uuuwwwwllmmm" as they died sound downright silly, so we decided retain the voice pitches during bullet time.

Anyone with a knack for MP modding should be able to change the scripts so that the voices lower in pitch.

Incidently, did anyone see the 'Enter the Vertex' matrix parody in Conker's Bad fur day? It used a similar move to the Max Payne shoot dodge, where the character flipped sideways from one piller, to another.Boy, I've considered buying a second hand N64 just to play that game... (and Goldeneye!)

SirSushi

08-13-2002, 07:02 AM

buy conker's bad fur day. you won't regret it

Maddieman

08-13-2002, 07:43 AM

Anyone with a knack for MP modding should be able to change the scripts so that the voices lower in pitch.
I gave it a shot! It's hilarious! images/icons/grin.gif
You're right though, it wouldn't have suited the proper game; but as a mod it's quite funny.

I've changed the basic enemies one, now I think I'm going to change the story one as well. Slow motion is used in some of the cutscenes, isn't it? images/icons/grin.gif

I'll try and upload it soon. images/icons/smile.gif

Boy, I've considered buying a second hand N64 just to play that game... (and Goldeneye!) (and Perfect Dark!)

For all it's flaws, it's still one of the best games on the N64. And, well, Conker's Bad Fur day is a unique experience.

http://www.boomspeed.com/hallier/bfdshot1_10_.jpg

http://www.boomspeed.com/hallier/bfdshot1_08_.jpg

[ 08-13-2002, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

runggu

08-17-2002, 09:30 AM

How about better skyboxes?

Krursk

08-23-2002, 03:05 AM

Well I would realy like to see the kenetix "ragdoll" effect on dead enemies. like in hitman and hitman 2 (demo) I hear a few up and comming games have licenced the technology. It would be nice to see in maxpayne 2.

Maddieman

08-23-2002, 07:53 AM

Number one on my list would be kfs, skd, and kf2 importers for 3ds max (or whichever program you're using). We can already get them in Milkshape, so it's no big secret. Please do us a favour and just provide them.

I'd also want the character animations to run at a hight fps. For some reason, if I make an animation that's faster than 24fps, the animation slows down. This means that I have to sacrifice smoothness in order to make fast movements.

What else? Hmm...sometimes if you add custom sounds, you get a 'ripping' noise. I think it's to do with the frequency scaling, but if you could refine that, it would be nice.

Finally, I'd like more flexible code. I'd like the ability to add animations, rather than just replace existing ones. Also the ability to add custom projectile death causes; since there are only a limited amount.

Well that's my current wish-list for Max Payne 2. Hope you take some of them into account. images/icons/smile.gif

[ 08-23-2002, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

Decker

08-28-2002, 02:40 AM

-Death animations that are more reactive to the environment would be nice

-MP really excelled in particle effects, shrapnel etc. but with DX8 accelerators becoming more and more commonplace you could take this even further in MP2

-Some water that utilizes the pixel shader effects (if it fits the setting...but then again the topic was about the engine, not the game)

-Better terrain

Overall, heavy implementation of HW DX8 features would be wonderful. Unless it means you'd be cutting your sales in half or creating too much workload figuring workarounds for the non-DX8 cards.

-As for the sounds, realistic occlusion in-game as well, not just during cutscenes and more speech & ambience sounds to show it off.

All this in a well-written, tested, bug-free game, running smooth and delivered yesterday, thank you! images/icons/wink.gif

Zer0

08-28-2002, 07:50 AM

I think the thing that holds mods back (engine wise) is the fact that its not possible to make huuuuge oudoor areas without the game absolutly dying. This leaves 2 options:

Make indoor areas.

Or make indoor style geometry thats outside (like corridors that are textures with bushes and so on).

As we saw in Evolution the engine can't handle the outside level, Sector4, very well at all.

Piano Man

09-01-2002, 08:37 PM

There is a glitch in bullet time, where some of the guns fire just as fast in normal time as it does in Bullet time, The thing is, that some people want realism. Examples of this are the Berettas and Doubles, The Colt Commando, The Jackhammer and the Sniper Rifle. It does give an unruly advantage, but the game is supposed to reflect realism.

Maddieman

09-01-2002, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:

Yet another thing was the cool way the pistols worked: the gun would fire just as frequently as you could press the trigger. Just like real guns. No fixed rate of fire.


[ 09-01-2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

SkavenRMD

09-02-2002, 07:09 AM

(um, was there something you were going to say there, Maddieman?)

piano_man15: There is a glitch in bullet time, where some of the guns fire just as fast in normal time as it does in Bullet time, The thing is, that some people want realism. Examples of this are the Berettas and Doubles, The Colt Commando, The Jackhammer and the Sniper Rifle. It does give an unruly advantage, but the game is supposed to reflect realism.It's not a glitch, and the game is not supposed to reflect reality. It's supposed to reflect action movies (especially John Woo ones). The fact that weapons increase their rate of fire just makes Bullet Time more powerful.

If you want realism, play Rainbow Six. "Yeah, but you can't shootdodge in it and the bullet impact effects look so ... boring." Exactly, that's realism. Ever tried shootdodging in real life?

Maddieman

09-02-2002, 07:13 AM

Ever tried shootdodging in real life? Yes - I dislocated my hip. graemlins/doh.gif

Maddieman

09-04-2002, 11:15 AM

Fully documented code. graemlins/tinyted.gif

The odd remarks now and then are useful; but more support for the coding element of modding, please. That would save me having to post my questions here, and hoping that someone from Remedy might actually stumble apon it. graemlins/hhg.gif

(um, was there something you were going to say there, Maddieman?)
(Sorry, I've only just spotted that comment - Damn this 30 minute editing limit! graemlins/tinyted.gif )

I was referring to the comment above, pointing out that you had already addressed the points about realism and gun fire rates. I didn't see any need to expand it. images/icons/cool.gif

[ 09-04-2002, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

Daedalus

09-04-2002, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by runggu:
How about better skyboxes?I agree. The skyboxes in MP are too blurry and look strange, nothing compared to the fantastic skyboxes which STALKER: Oblivion Lost will have.

Maddieman

09-04-2002, 05:48 PM

Fully documented code. 2 more code related things:

1. The ability to add and trigger brand new custom animations from the script.

2. The ability to refer to characters better (especially from the projectile scripts). About half of the ideas I have, can't be implemented very easily because I can only refer to the player and an enemy character by the reciever "THIS" - which is usless in the projectile code. The reciever player should be active, as should something along the lines of target (specifically for the characterhit blocks).

If you could add those, I'd be a happier person images/icons/smile.gif

Maddieman

09-05-2002, 06:22 AM

The ability to record gameplay as a real time demo, like in the Driver games.

When the level is complete you're given the option to go into a film director mode, where you can change the cameras, and adjust the levels of bullettime. With the movie complete, you're given the option to save the real time vid (so you can edit it later) and/or convert it to avi.

Since Max Payne is based on all the best action movies; it would be a cool feature to allow the player to have a go at directing one themselves.

Co11

09-05-2002, 07:15 PM

Didn't mad onion do the skyboxes? or at least help in making them or something?

SkavenRMD

09-06-2002, 07:41 AM

The ability to record gameplay as a real time demo, like in the Driver games.I'd love that too. But whenever I propose it to the coders, they start rolling on the floor and whimpering like kicked puppies.

The engine isn't built with time-shifting in mind, even though time can be scaled. If time-shifting was made, it would require implementations similar to network code.. so we could just as well go and add multiplayer.

Co11

09-06-2002, 09:47 AM

Skaven, You guys are adding Multiplayer? images/icons/grin.gif

juuuust kidding!

Maddieman

09-06-2002, 11:19 AM

so we could just as well go and add multiplayer Okay! Do that, then! images/icons/smile.gif

SkavenRMD

09-06-2002, 03:39 PM

Sure! Care to wait twice as long for two medicore games instead of one kickass one?

Maddieman

09-06-2002, 05:34 PM

How about releasing two medicore games while we wait for the kickass one? images/icons/grin.gif

/hears bells ringing

images/icons/wink.gif

[ 09-06-2002, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

Wild Falkon

09-07-2002, 12:27 AM

The movie feature would kick ass, and besides, who said that because you could pull off multi means you have to do multi?

ADM

09-07-2002, 02:01 PM

- Facial Animations
- Decreased Load times
- Real-time would be cool.. for example every 1 min in real life is 10 mins in game.. or something like that, so that the lighting could change and affect your vision.
- Also when you get shot (or even take to many painkillers at once) you get blurry vision for a couple of seconds, gives you vulnerability time.

Maddieman

09-07-2002, 02:11 PM

More women. graemlins/love.gif

Actually, I'm serious about this. There are four female characters/models in the game; two of which start off dead, and the other two die later on. All four wear skirts of some sort.

A little more diversity, please.

[ 09-07-2002, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

ADM

09-07-2002, 02:43 PM

yes!! One has to wear pants!!! images/icons/wink.gif images/icons/tongue.gif

Maddieman

09-07-2002, 03:18 PM

Heh heh...only a few people saw the body transplant experiment performed on Michelle Payne and Boris Dime. images/icons/grin.gif

It did not go well graemlins/mryuck.gif

LeadBullet

09-07-2002, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
Sure! Care to wait twice as long for two medicore games instead of one kickass one?Does that mean DNF multiplayer will suck. images/icons/shocked.gif

SkavenRMD

09-08-2002, 01:39 AM

Does that mean DNF multiplayer will suck. images/icons/shocked.gif Nope, because you've waited forever for that.

MikaRMD

09-08-2002, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Does that mean DNF multiplayer will suck. images/icons/shocked.gif Nope, because you've waited forever for that.<hr /></blockquote>So obvious... yet still ROFL...

biXen

09-09-2002, 01:34 AM

Everything good has few women in it... Max Payne, Snatch, Lock Stock & Two Smoking Barrels, Goodfellas, Godfather (damn that bitchy woman though)...

biXen

09-10-2002, 02:40 PM

SWAT has a "lighter" engine I'd say. And it's probably too much stress to be worth it for RMD, at least since it would take place in a lot of destroyed NY buildings...

Sergei Molotov

09-11-2002, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by biXen:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Co11:
Mirrors... gotta have mirrors.. any new gaming engine has the ability to use mirrors... and if Max-FX has any desire to be liscensed.. then they gotta be able to put mirrors in their levelMirrors are extremely hard to make + are graphics intensive. So don't count on it...<hr /></blockquote>They did it accurately in something as old as SWAT 3...

Gatinater

09-11-2002, 03:38 AM

The enhanced engine gos VROOM!!! VROOOOM!!!

Claws

09-15-2002, 02:34 PM

- Improved facial animation.

- Realistic physics, accurate collision detection. (No goddamn clipping through walls)

- A new ground breaking feature that can replace Bullet Time. Bullet Time will not have the same "WOW" it did in MP1.

- Sharper textures... Sky boxes...

Krursk

10-16-2002, 11:34 AM

SkavenRMD

10-17-2002, 05:13 AM

Well bullet time needs enhancement. For example the slow mo finish could be replaced with a slow mo replay from several angles. Or have the "6000 miles to Graceland" style bullet collision in a cut scene. And the physics engine on bodies would rock, note that physics for bodies can also be added to map entities for realistic debris and items getting flung about. Basically Max Payne 2 needs more style and finesse.Is there an actual connection between these two paragraphs?

In my book, technical tricks != style and finesse.

Cathome

10-17-2002, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by Claws:

- Realistic physics, accurate collision detection. (No goddamn clipping through walls)I remember the latest case when deadly wounded Max slips down and his head appears in the next room.

Krursk

10-17-2002, 07:33 AM

In my book, technical tricks != style and finesse.Well I will leave the style up to you guys, Hell max payne was so stylish its gonna be hard to top.

I expect the grafix will be upgraded quite a bit tho, with features such as BUMP MAPPING, or PROJECTED SHADOWS. And a cool physics engine ala hitman/UT2003.

Guest

10-17-2002, 01:31 PM

Exactly!
Something like the Karma Physics engine in UT 2003 would be a huge enhancement to the feel of the game. Shooting an enemy and watching him spin like a top while his arms flailed and dangled before he slumped to the ground in a heap would add soooo much more to the fight sequences.

There was another mod for another game that I played a year or so ago that had it set so that if you hit someone in the head with a Desert Eagle they would do a back Flip and land face down and as unrealistic as that was it was the coolest damn thing I ever saw!

Also one of the best parts about MP was the realistic textures, the game inspite of it's low poly environments looked awesome.
So higher definition geometry and dynamic lighting effects would add so much more to an already impressive set of graphics.

I agree with the people who have said that bullet time will need some sprucing up, more moves during bullet time would solve that problem for me, something like the wall jump in the Kung-fu mod or a dive and roll so that Max is back on his feet at the end of the animation.

I also liked the ideas people had about shootiung around corners and leaning against walls, kicking over tables for cover rocked in RTCW.

Mongorian

10-19-2002, 01:45 PM

agreed! imagine if they applied actual physics to everything in the game. tables, chairs, soda pop cans, and even to the debris that flies about.
i think it has definite potential in a max payne game images/icons/smile.gif

SkavenRMD

10-19-2002, 03:05 PM

Anything more fresh and less obvious out there? I mean, just repeating stuff you've seen in other titles isn't taking this conversation anywhere, is it.

Yeah, I'm sure Game X would be really cool if it had the cool features seen in games Y, Z, Å, Ä and Ö crammed into it, but in fact they would just make Game X more similar to those other titles, rather than making it stand apart. Not to mention that it would bloat the development workload out of proportion. (That's why DNF is taking so long, isn't it? They've been listening to you guys for too long) graemlins/tinyted.gif

How about some ideas that would be unique to Max Payne? Those are the ones we're trying to come up with ourselves (while also trying to implement as many cool new "obvious" gimmicks as we humanly can). If anyone here comes up with something like that, we'll gladly (and ruthlessly) exploit it. images/icons/grin.gif

BTW, how many of you have noticed - or complained (http://www.hitmanforum.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=166) - that Hitman 2 no longer has skin decals (=bullet holes on bodies)? How many percent does that reduce the game's fun factor in your opinion? I'm curious.

Clint R.

10-19-2002, 03:47 PM

the hitman 2 engine is GREAT, accept for the decals on bodies images/icons/frown.gif , but MP2 could use some things of the H2 engine.... like ehh, shadows, plant and stuff gliding against characters.... and much more....

the Mafia engine is GREAT to.... MP2 could use a lot of that one to, like the animations they look real good, damage to cars could be used -> MAX beating up things whit an bat...

And what really would be cool r silencers for guns, flash bangs, smoke bombs, knifes, bottles to knock out enemys....

AND MUCH MORE.... LOL

Maddieman

10-19-2002, 05:28 PM

that Hitman 2 no longer has skin decals (=bullet holes on bodies)? How many percent does that reduce the game's fun factor in your opinion? I'm curious. I've only just started playing the first hitman game, and I though it was quite a decent feature with the cartoon-like style of the graphics; it's hard to judge how well it would convert to a photo-realistic(ish) game like Max Payne. Perhaps if the decals were randomised a bit, it would have added a bit more variety. Also, animated decals might work - to make them look like they were bleeding.

How about some ideas that would be unique to Max Payne? Here are the ideas I could remember:

Would dynamic decals be too impossible to implement? What I mean by this made up buzz word, is that instead of using bumped sprites, set it so that projectiles actually alter or destroy the level geometry. Not too much - just enough to look like proper 3d bullet holes (or impact damage).

Also, would it be possible to make more solid looking particles? Make some of the debris effects look more 3d. Some are good, the fire worked well; but things like the fire hydrant foam looked out of context.

Maybe this is covered under karma physics, but the ability to apply weight values to objects (bones/projectiles) might prove useful. As well as projectiles, would it be possible to make bones cause damage too? You could use the weight and the speed of the bone's movement to determine how much damage is caused. Primarily this would be for improved hit detection in close quarters combat (so that the actual fist/weapon does damage, rather than an invisible projectile form the neck).

Unique animations - A mix between animation, and randomization (read: complex physics calculation). Instead of one single animation for everything (e.g. the running animation), make four similar ones, and let the engine blend between them (while taking physics data into account as well); so that you produce realistic, unique animations.

Also, more control over projectiles and level items.

For example, useful controls would be to accelerate and decelerate projectiles. As well as their obvious use, you could combine the acceleration values with the weight values to cause more realistic gethit/impact animations.

Another useful thing would be messages for changing a projectile's direction mid flight.

Perhaps this is covered in the explosion message, but a size or radius for the projectile hit-detection would be handy, too.

Other things might include how durable a projectile is, can it go through walls, doors, or characters, etc.

Is it possible to attach a 3d sound to a (moving) projectile? I tried, but I'm not 100% sure if it worked correctly. Either way, if it isn't in there, it should be.

Orbiting projectiles? Attach it to a bone, and watch it spin around them.

One last thing, how about being able to aim projectiles at specific bones? Not sure how it would work, but maybe you get the idea.

As for level items, I'd personally like to see the enemies pick them up too. If you did that, there should be a parameter for controlling who can pick it up (i.e.: max, enemy, all).

I think I've said this before, but high up on my list would be the ability to define new animations and activate them with fsm messages. What is also essential is being able to reference to the player receiver, or an enemy receiver from another script (i.e. not using the this receiver). Perhaps, in the projectile scripts you could use something along the lines of target receiver or something.

Other, non-specific things include: separate time controls for max (so you could have effects which affect everything except Max); motion blur; and some other stuff which I've forgotten.

Well, that's all I could think of for today... images/icons/smile.gif

we'll gladly (and ruthlessly) exploit it. images/icons/frown.gif

[ 10-19-2002, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

SkavenRMD

10-20-2002, 02:02 AM

Whoa, that's quite a list you've got there. Programming is a lot of work, as we all know. Implementing all you list above would extend the game project by a couple of years, at least due to a few particularly difficult ones you mention there. As I said earlier, this is exactly why DNF is taking so long to make.

Also, I'm sorry, but pretty much none of these are the kind of ideas I meant by "unique to Max Payne". Believe it or not, these are mostly technical "eye candy" features that have already been considered, pondered, suggested and discussed by numerous gamers and game developers all over the world. The reason they're not yet in many games is most often the fact they're just not yet plausible when you compare the amount of work to the gameplay benefits they would bring. Not because the developers just didn't come to think of them.

Glad to see we're on the same tracks though. You definitely have a game developer's mindset.

This applies both ways. We do think (and have thought) about these things a lot, and many others as well. For example, I recently made a small suggestion we could make the camera shake effect distance dependent. So that if a grenade explodes far away, it would shake the screen less. It was, like all other suggestions, put into the list of things to consider, and may or may not end up in the final game.

Let's go through these. Please note that these comments do not imply in any form whatsoever whether or not such features are or will be in Max Payne 2. We will implement whatever suits our work schedule and gameplay requirements best.

I've only just started playing the first hitman game, and I though it was quite a decent feature with the cartoon-like style of the graphics; it's hard to judge how well it would convert to a photo-realistic(ish) game like Max Payne. Perhaps they removed it because a guy with a bullet hole in his head shooting back at you looked stupid. That, or headshots would always be lethal, and the enemies would never actually hit the hero's head (since instant deaths are annoying). Or that the hero would get bullet holes on his body, but not on his head. Or that they would disappear when he picks up a health item. Or not.

As you see, they tend to make things a bit complex. If the game was first person, the above would not really be such a problem.

Perhaps if the decals were randomised a bit, it would have added a bit more variety. They are already randomised by rotation and mirroring, but I see where you're getting at. It would be reasonably easy to use, for example, a 2x2 set of textures instead of one texture for the decals, and randomize between them.

Also, animated decals might work - to make them look like they were bleeding.It might also make your CPU and texture memory look like it's bleeding. images/icons/smile.gif

The decals in Max Payne 1 are not individual meshes once they're created - they're actually merged into a single mesh to take advantage of hardware T&L. One of the reasons they couldn't be animated, nor removed one by one.

The blob shadow under Max Payne is actually an "animated decal", since it rotates, moves and scales and is constantly projected onto the surface underneath. It also uses way more CPU than a normal "slap and forget" decal.

Would dynamic decals be too impossible to implement? What I mean by this made up buzz word, is that instead of using bumped sprites, set it so that projectiles actually alter or destroy the level geometry. Not too much - just enough to look like proper 3d bullet holes (or impact damage).How would you alter the level geometry "not too much"? Level geometry consists of mostly large polygons. Putting even a single small bullet hole in the wall with a Boolean operation causes lots of tesselation, not to mention a whole bunch of holes. That's why GeoMod is used for large chunks of geometry but not for bullet holes.

I once suggested using concave geometry with a higher Z buffer bias, so you could plant a cup-like "dent" on the wall which would be behind the wall polygon, but still drawn on top of it thanks to the bias, but this would cause serious Z-fighting (=flickering) problems when viewing at shallow angles. Plus, due to backface culling, the near edge of the hole does not cover the far side of it, making it look pretty screwed. What a doomed idea that was.

Crisis Zone style pre-tesselated (and pre-fragmented) geometry could be cool, but it would have to be limited to small areas since in a larger room the number of fragments would go out of control. In Crisis Zone this is easy to control, since the player does not move freely around the environment. Even then I bet it was a real development nightmare to implement.

Pre-tiled geometry destructable tile by tile, as seen in PS1 Die Hard Trilogy Part 2 could also be cool, but the tiling itself would pose some interesting limitations to the level geometry, and be a level designer's nightmare. As seen in that particular game.

Also, would it be possible to make more solid looking particles? Make some of the debris effects look more 3d. Some are good, the fire worked well; but things like the fire hydrant foam looked out of context.That's more a matter of the bitmaps used than particle technology. You probably know this but just in case: the key difference between particles and projectiles, besides the fact particles are "sprites" (=billboards) and projectiles are 3D objects, is the fact that only projectiles collide with the environment. Collision detection uses a lot more CPU. This is why using particles for most debris effects is preferred over projectiles.

When making Max Payne 1, I asked the coders if we could, for example, make the shards of tile that fall from the tiled walls when shot to be actually projectiles so that they would remain on the ground (or create a "bits of tile" debris decal on the floor below), but they said no.

I've also suggested (=hoarsely begged) if ParticleFX could be used to combine 3D mesh effects with 2D billboards, but they just shake their heads with an "I pity your clueless carcass" smile on their faces.

We tried using 3D "pieces of wood" projectiles as debris when breaking crates, but the idea didn't work due to a bunch of reasons.

Maybe this is covered under karma physics, but the ability to apply weight values to objects (bones/projectiles) might prove useful. As well as projectiles, would it be possible to make bones cause damage too? You could use the weight and the speed of the bone's movement to determine how much damage is caused. Primarily this would be for improved hit detection in close quarters combat (so that the actual fist/weapon does damage, rather than an invisible projectile form the neck).This sounds more like beat-em-up than shoot-em-up stuff. Alas, for a game like Max Payne it's not plausible. Die By The Sword used a system akin to this. It would not only make the system unpredictable, but also very difficult to balance.

As a weird comparison, imagine a chess game where the attack/defense values of the pieces would depend on how they are placed and rotated within each square. It would make the game too complex for its purposes.

Unique animations - A mix between animation, and randomization (read: complex physics calculation). Instead of one single animation for everything (e.g. the running animation), make four similar ones, and let the engine blend between them (while taking physics data into account as well); so that you produce realistic, unique animations.Among other things, David Braben is experimenting with this with his A Dog's Tale (http://www.frontier.co.uk/download/demonstrator.zip) game/demonstration. Not only this, the system also individually animates different parts of the body and has IK for the legs. Wow.

This is another interesting area that not many programmers are actually willing to explore, because 3rd person games in general are already a character animation management nightmare even without such a system.

Also, more control over projectiles and level items.

For example, useful controls would be to accelerate and decelerate projectiles. As well as their obvious use, you could combine the acceleration values with the weight values to cause more realistic gethit/impact animations. As in Hitman and more recently, UT2k3? Hmm.

Another useful thing would be messages for changing a projectile's direction mid flight. Sure, um, where and how would these exactly be useful?

Perhaps this is covered in the explosion message, but a size or radius for the projectile hit-detection would be handy, too. For collision and CPU usage reasons, the collision detection radius of all projectiles was locked down to a certain value in Max Payne 1 (they all have a certain, very small spherical radius), because it was fastest to calculate. Don't ask. images/icons/smile.gif

Other things might include how durable a projectile is, can it go through walls, doors, or characters, etc. This would also introduce a level design / game balancing nightmare, I'm afraid.

For a teeth-grittingly realistic game like Rainbow Six this would be more plausible. That game lacked other eye candy features because they focused their efforts on realism.

Is it possible to attach a 3d sound to a (moving) projectile? I tried, but I'm not 100% sure if it worked correctly. Either way, if it isn't in there, it should be. It is possible already, but the values are not interpolated from frame to frame, so if the projectile moves very fast, you won't get a "zing" effect. Consult DirectSound for the reasons behind this.

For slower-moving projectiles (arrows, etc) this might work better. Listen to the tank shells in Battlefield 1942. Oh wow...

Orbiting projectiles? Attach it to a bone, and watch it spin around them. And this would be useful in what way..? (besides being "neat")

One last thing, how about being able to aim projectiles at specific bones? Not sure how it would work, but maybe you get the idea. The auto-aim in Max Payne 1 already does this - the projectile is aimed towards either the character's collision capsule or its chest bone. However, this feature is hard-coded and not accessible thru messages.

Implementing message control for any game feature is always a much larger job than hard-coding it, so implementing it must always be carefully considered gameplay benefit wise. For projectile aiming in Max Payne 1, hard-coding was the most plausible option.

As for level items, I'd personally like to see the enemies pick them up too. If you did that, there should be a parameter for controlling who can pick it up (i.e.: max, enemy, all).In Max Payne 1, after some consideration it was concluded that it is very annoying if enemies pick up and waste your guns or health bonuses, and besides those, what would there be left to pick up? Such events could already be scripted, but it was rarely used (if at all).

I think I've said this before, but high up on my list would be the ability to define new animations and activate them with fsm messages. [......] Other, non-specific things include: separate time controls for max (so you could have effects which affect everything except Max); motion blur; and some other stuff which I've forgotten.These sound plausible. Except for the motion blur (can get pretty heavy, at least GTA3 was insanely slow on my system when the motion blur was on) and "some other stuff". There's no way we could do that. images/icons/smile.gif

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> we'll gladly (and ruthlessly) exploit it. images/icons/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>Why the long face? Surely you've read the rules (http://www.3drealms.com/forums.html) of this forum. *evil corporate cackle* images/icons/grin.gif

Realistically put, in this kind of a forum, there's no way to prove or find out whether an idea implemented in the game has been come up with by the developers, you, or 200 000 other people who have came up with the same idea. Frankly, it doesn't even matter. Did you look at the credits in Max Payne 1? They didn't credit anyone for coming up with ideas. It's the implementation that counts.

Daedalus

10-20-2002, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Is it possible to attach a 3d sound to a (moving) projectile? I tried, but I'm not 100% sure if it worked correctly. Either way, if it isn't in there, it should be. It is possible already, but the values are not interpolated from frame to frame, so if the projectile moves very fast, you won't get a "zing" effect. Consult DirectSound for the reasons behind this.<hr /></blockquote>First off, which "values" do you mean?! And what is that "zing" effect, a sound which makes "ziiiiiing" or what?! I never heard a bullet sound "ziiiing" or s.th. Which kind of bullet is that?

Second, it's very easy to implement reasonable sounds to moving projectiles. All you need to do is to combine the FrequencyScaling = TRUE; function (already implemented in Max Payne 1 images/icons/smile.gif ) with the speed value of a moving projectile. When the projectile has a speed of 22050 units (I call it "units" here, it could also be pixels, bits or whatever kind of measurement works best in game) then the sound is splayed at a pitch of 22050 Hz. When the projectile goes very fast and has a speed of 44100 units then the sound is played at 44100 Hz. The speed values of projectiles could range from 4000 (=extremely slow) to 44100 (=extremly fast) units.

Simple like that. images/icons/smile.gif

You can even advance this technique and add volume slide and reverb values to it. When a projectile is approaching the player from a very far distance then it is hardly heard, but gets louder and louder the smaller the distance between projectile and player. This applies for the other way, too. When a projectile, fired by the player, flies away then the volume of the sound gets lower and lower. And reverb of projectile sounds is used when the level designer has set a reverb zone flag and a reverb length value inside the brush properties of a room or group of rooms.

[ 10-20-2002, 05:51 AM: Message edited by: Daedalus ]

SirSushi

10-20-2002, 06:56 AM

-player acceleration
if you start running you slowly accelerate (not too slowly) instead of going at full speed instantly and when you change directions (strafe left, then strafe right) the player does a braking movement before accelerating into the other direction (kinda like super mario 64)

in combination with proper ground collision detection you could get rid of that "skating/hovering over the ground" feel that you find in most 3d-action games

of course all the accelerating/braking/turning (if possible to implement) could screw the gameplay, but max still has his dodging moves to counter that.
(being able to do a roll after dodging to keep max moving would be interesting too)

Maddieman

10-20-2002, 02:30 PM

First off, thanks for such a detailed response, Skaven. images/icons/smile.gif

I understand that the majority of my suggestions are impractical and/or time/money consuming - I was deliberately going for ideas over plausibility since, after all, impossibilities shouldn't be ruled out on face value. Perhaps in the years to come, it will become easier to implement these types of things. I assume that at this stage of development the majority of ideas will have been finalised by now - so that you can start to integrate them into all aspects of the game.

I also realised that, after finishing, that they were more aimed at technical features rather than unique ideas or gameplay features (e.g. karma physics, bullet time, gibbing, stealth, etc). Max Payne's unique selling point is bullettime and explosive firefights - therefore that would be the obvious thing to focus on. What could be done to make bullettime more interesting, or the shooting more exciting/fun? I believe there is already a thread for that.

My suggestions were more aimed at what I'd like to see in the engine, after experimenting with it for several months. The majority of ideas were inspired by things I've already tried (and failed) to do. My projectile ideas, for example, might not have any immediately obvious use; but it's about making the engine more flexible.

Sure, it's easy enough to get a feature working in the source code ( images/icons/wink.gif ), as required by the game. But someone, somewhere down the line might want to take the engine and produce something amazing with it, using it in ways that were never conceived or intended - look what Ken Yeung did with level items, for example.

You made quite a few references to other games/projects which I plan read up on, some time. That animation program (with the dogs) was particularly interesting (although I managed to break one of the dog's legs by quickly switching from a flat to a bumped surface images/icons/grin.gif ); would it put too much of a strain on the CPU to implement in a proper game, though? In the mean time, I noticed that you can set multiple sound files for one sound effect definition (allowing the engine to randomly choose a sound). Would this be possible for animation blocks, as well?

"some other stuff". There's no way we could do that images/icons/smile.gif "Max Payne 2, featuring some-other-stuff gameplay - A first in gaming." images/icons/tongue.gif

As for idea copyright, I was kidding - it doesn't concern me. Remedy and 3D Realms appear to be honest companies, who are committed to making their games as good as they possibly can. Many people have claimed that Max Payne is a one-trick pony, or that Max Payne 2 will be no more than a cash-in on the first one's success, but I genuinely doubt that.

Thanks again, and keep up the good work. http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/thumb.gif

[ 10-20-2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

MikaRMD

10-20-2002, 03:46 PM

I've also suggested (=hoarsely begged) if ParticleFX could be used to combine 3D mesh effects with 2D billboards, but they just shake their heads with an "I pity your clueless carcass" smile on their faces. Ohhh...my stomach hurts... images/icons/wink.gif

Krursk

10-20-2002, 09:18 PM

Well Ive done a feature wish list its time for a gameplay wishlist.

1.What about having bullets being able to colide with each other? I cant name a game where the actual bullets them selves can hit each other and deflect.

2.Enemies that can smell you.

3. If you use bullet time while standing still max will automaticaly dodge incoming bullets.

4. Randomised personalities/AI for enemy goons, ie. gun ho type goons, cautious ones, downright cowards etc, but randomised to give the game some unpredictability.

Guest

10-20-2002, 10:32 PM

How about more sneak and an option for limited hightened senses.
For instance Max can creep up a wall to a door and use an option that would allow him to filter out ambient noise and pick up on breathing in the next room. Would work great with 5.1
With the addition of an option like that different approaches could be implemented, a different and harder to find air shaft that Max could climb into and sneak around behind the enemy or bypass them all together.
It could also feature a slight zoom effect on vision

The ability to climb walls and enter buildings through windows, i.e. Max shimmy's up a drain pipe and swings over onto a balcony that was previously inacessable.
The ability to jump and grab hold of something would fit right in with that and allthough it's kind of Tomb Raider-esque ya gotta admit it was kinda cool.

Silent kills, like neck snappin, pistol whippin, silenced weapons or throat cutting. graemlins/love.gif

Using the environment to your advantage, kick a bookshelf over and it lands on a guy or just jump and kick of a wall to dodge sideways or reach a high place allah Jackie Chan.

Zip lines where one hand with an uzi is free to shoot.

Use another body as armor.

Belly crawling for added stealth when needed or desired.

The ability to trip an enemy or distract him in some way while you take on another. Maybe kick the gun out of his hand.

SkavenRMD

10-20-2002, 11:39 PM

Maddieman;

I understand that the majority of my suggestions are impractical and/or time/money consuming - I was deliberately going for ideas over plausibility since, after all, impossibilities shouldn't be ruled out on face value.They aren't. They're just added to a list of low priority things to do, then forgotten about. images/icons/smile.gif

Max Payne's unique selling point is bullettime and explosive firefights - therefore that would be the obvious thing to focus on. What could be done to make bullettime more interesting, or the shooting more exciting/fun? I believe there is already a thread for that.And no doubt, we're racking our brains over it the best we can over here.

My projectile ideas, for example, might not have any immediately obvious use; but it's about making the engine more flexible.
Sure, it's easy enough to get a feature working in the source code ( ), as required by the game. But someone, somewhere down the line might want to take the engine and produce something amazing with it, using it in ways that were never conceived or intended - look what Ken Yeung did with level items, for example.Well, that's one problem... our situation is quite the opposite to the Half-Life team. I read an article in Game Developer (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/19991210/birdwell_pfv.htm) about it; the programmers had implemented a big bunch of cool effects and features but none of the level designers actually used them!

Our team, on the other hand, won't implement absolutely anything unless it's clear it will have considerable benefit gameplay, development or fun factor wise. And even then, only if the higher priority things give time for it. And even then, it's done the "technically easiest" way, usually hard-coded, which leaves little room for any other uses, and even the allowed use is strictly Spartan. Am I starting to sound bitter? I'm sure there are good reasons behind this.

That animation program (with the dogs) was particularly interesting; would it put too much of a strain on the CPU to implement in a proper game, though?Actually I haven't checked how much CPU the system uses, but I'd figure it could be used at least for the main/major characters in the game.

I wonder how much programming effort Braben had to spend in creating that system. It may explain why such things are still rarely seen in games.

In the mean time, I noticed that you can set multiple sound files for one sound effect definition (allowing the engine to randomly choose a sound). Would this be possible for animation blocks, as well?Certainly; all assets could be made randomizeable, but this has to be specifically implemented for each one. Multiple random variations of each item can also become a memory issue. The randomization was most critical for the sounds, as repetition in sound is very easy to notice.

Many people have claimed that Max Payne is a one-trick pony, or that Max Payne 2 will be no more than a cash-in on the first one's success, but I genuinely doubt that. It is, but only partly. graemlins/hhg.gif

Thanks again, and keep up the good work. Du bist wilkommen (bad German alert!), and we will. images/icons/smile.gif

SkavenRMD

10-20-2002, 11:55 PM

Daedalus;

DirectSound 3D sounds already have a Falloff value, that is, they are the quieter, the farther away they are. There's no need to implement a separate volume slide.

The problem is just that the sound's volume and 3D position/panning value is not interpolated from frame to frame. So if the projectile travels extremely fast (like a bullet), you won't hear a smooth, panned "zing" as it goes by; you'll hear the sound jump from place to place. This is not a problem with slow-moving projectiles.

Second, it's very easy to implement reasonable sounds to moving projectiles. All you need to do is to combine the FrequencyScaling = TRUE; function (already implemented in Max Payne 1 ) with the speed value of a moving projectile.graemlins/doh.gif It doesn't work that way.

Well, DirectX also has a Doppler effect feature, but that's a different story.

What you suggest is something completely different. Imagine holding a tennis ball that lets out a looping beep. Then drop it. The sound goes from low 'boop' to high 'beep' until the ball hits the ground, then it goes down to 'boop' again, and up and down as the ball bounces.

This could perhaps be useful for games where the projectiles change their speed drastically due to air resistance or such, but not for Max Payne.

Krursk;
1.What about having bullets being able to colide with each other? I cant name a game where the actual bullets them selves can hit each other and deflect.Er.. what are the actual odds of that? But then, in action movies (especially Hong Kong ones) things do tend to happen against all odds...

2.Enemies that can smell you.And then what? Offer you a breath mint? graemlins/dopefish.gif

The Baskinator

10-21-2002, 01:26 AM

And then what? Offer you a breath mint?*giggling* images/icons/grin.gif

Not to offend Max, but I doubt they would be smelling his breath alone. I mean, I don't think he showered at all during his killing spree in the first game. If such is the case, I can't even imagine the overwhelming funk that must have accompanied him.

Krursk

10-21-2002, 02:43 AM

Can you imagine it. You cruise around and you hear 2 goons talking as you hide behind a crate.

"So I was saying... *sniff* whats that smell?! ...ITS PAYNE!"

But the smelling thing was actualy a little reference to the PS2s supposed capabilities, including "such advanced AI that would alow enemies to not only see and hear you, but to smell you as well." I was hinting at better AI in a semi-humourous way.

biXen

10-21-2002, 03:39 AM

LMAO, smell you...

And it IS a pain to be under the thumb of programmers, dismissing every great idea. Or the infamous "We can't do that yet" or "That one will come later". Or even "don't do that now, it doesn't work yet" images/icons/smile.gif

SirSushi

10-21-2002, 10:56 AM

what about cloth physics? images/icons/smile.gif

RollingBrass

10-21-2002, 05:03 PM

*GASP!* Me too! We can be brothers! \o/

Seriously though....I don't give a fllying florp what the frig you do to the engine, as long as you make the game fun, and break up the action with some interesting stuff (like you did with the dream sequences). I myself play games, not engines. images/icons/smile.gif

Oh, and I'm still waiting for a "What about moving?!" Easter Egg. images/icons/grin.gif

Ken_Y

10-21-2002, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
Absolutely not. I love to hand animate the jacket bones for every $"@!!£"# animation.I agree. There's just no better way to spend your free time then hand animating the jacket movement for every little animation. If only we had bones to hand animate flowing hair, ribbons and shoelaces, then all my dreams would be fulfilled images/icons/smile.gif

Now time to get back to my jacket animating...

SkavenRMD

10-22-2002, 12:54 AM

Absolutely not. I love to hand animate the jacket bones for every $"@!!£"# animation.

Bushido

10-22-2002, 04:57 PM

Wow! If jacket animating is THIS fun why not hand animate everything!

Ok, ok, just go with me on this. Why not scrap your current engine and hand animate the ENTIRE 3D world. It'll probably save you time in the long run . Also, what could be more fun than spending 16 hour days making every tree leaf flow right?

..I think you'll agree that it's a shame I didn't get into this whole game development scene. I'd be a programmers BEST friend!

...what? images/icons/confused.gif

Maddieman

10-22-2002, 05:38 PM

I was going to bring this up in my original post (until I forgot graemlins/doh.gif ), but since the topic has convieniently moved to it anyway - I quite impressed with the cloth animation in Hitman (except for the pop-up). I know it's nothing orignal, but it could be quite suitable in Max Payne. With a clever use of alpha textures and decals, would it be possible to make bullet holes in the material? That would be...uh...neat....damn....

SkavenRMD

10-23-2002, 12:15 AM

Bushido;
Why not scrap your current engine and hand animate the ENTIRE 3D world.In fact, Max Payne 1 is entirely hand animated. The keyframes for all the dynamic objects have to be done manually. All character animations were hand made.

Okay, well, um, particle motions are actually generated by the computer (based on hand-made parameters), and the AI automatically chooses from a set of hand-animated character animations, but you get the idea. images/icons/smile.gif

Maddieman;
I'm quite impressed with the cloth animation in Hitman (except for the pop-up). I know it's nothing orignal, but it could be quite suitable in Max Payne.I have high hopes on this one, since it would make my job a lot easier as well (no need to animate the !@#&% jacket any more), but it took three weeks for the strangle marks to disappear the last time I tossed this at the coders. graemlins/dopefish.gif

With a clever use of alpha textures and decals, would it be possible to make bullet holes in the material? That would be...uh...neat....damn....Bullet Holes You Can Actually See Through?™ Boy, have I heard that one before. images/icons/smile.gif Unfortunately, DirectX and progressive textures don't mix very well (they cause slowdown each time the texture is updated). And it would also require a bit-more-complex-than-average texture memory allocation system, as every piece of cloth in the scene would need to have their own alpha texture (to avoid the bullte holes in one cloth magically appear in all other cloths as well). And since you cannot separate the alpha map and the color map in the texture memory in most 3D hardware, a duplicate of each cloth texture (with alpha) would have to be allocated in the memory as well, not just the alphas. This would pose some memory limitations. The alpha map and the color map must also be the same resolution, so you cannot save memory by using a low res alpha map with a high res texture; the cloth texture would also have to be low res. You can avoid blurry edges in the alpha by using the other alpha blend mode (not sure what it's called but it gives sharp outlines at the blend threshold), but there would be some sorting/overlap problems still.

Let's say someone implements this feature after all. What will they get? Some HC gamer shooting a curtain for 15 minutes until he's managed to saw the curtain in half with bullet holes. He would then notice that the severed piece of curtain is still hanging in the air. He goes to the discussion forums to write "OMG WTF LOL teh clof hangs in teh air! Teh gaem sux asssssss!!!!111 idiot devalopurs didnt taek thsi into acount!!!!!11". images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Lots of Holy Grails out there. Currently only one of them can be present at any one game at a time (GeoMod, ragdoll, GHOUL), because implementing them takes so much time and effort. I don't see more of them appearing in one game simultaneously in the near future. Maybe some future titles will contain two Holy Grails instead of one. images/icons/smile.gif

Krursk

10-23-2002, 12:50 AM

Lots of Holy Grails out there. Currently only one of them can be present at any one game at a time (GeoMod, ragdoll, GHOUL), because implementing them takes so much time and effort. I don't see more of them appearing in one game simultaneously in the near future. Maybe some future titles will contain two Holy Grails instead of one. ... DNF

But out of these holy grails the only thing needed in max payne 2 is the 'ragdoll' one. hell max payne one was a holy grail in itself but if any one should be added it should be ragdoll. And imagine how much easier it would be for you, never have to make a death animation again, heh. So when you think about it it would actualy save time in max paynes development. Of course bodies would need to have decent weight variables otherwise you end up with hitman flying corpses and not hitman 2 or UT2003 realistic ones.

SkavenRMD

10-23-2002, 01:27 AM

Actually I would still have to do the animations (or import motion capture, or whatever), because relying on ragdoll alone looks rather limp.

Ragdoll works best when combined with death animations, which then switch to ragdoll after a while. Like they've done in Halo.

biXen

10-23-2002, 01:41 AM

Yeah, sometimes in Hitman it feels like you are fighting muppets...

Krursk

10-23-2002, 02:24 AM

Well in any case Ragdoll should be made a standard in all action games including max payne 2. And from what I understand the technology is relativly easy to implement. Altho I could and probably are wrong about that.

MikaRMD

10-23-2002, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by Krursk:
Well in any case Ragdoll should be made a standard in all action games including max payne 2. And from what I understand the technology is relativly easy to implement. Altho I could and probably are wrong about that.Are you sure you are not working for a company selling the technology and cleverly disguising yourself as a forum regular??? images/icons/wink.gif

Maddieman

10-23-2002, 05:28 AM

imagine how much easier it would be for you, never have to make a death animation again Excuse me, but I happen to enjoy making death animations. They're one of the most satisfying ones to get working. Then again, you haven't seen the explosion animation I've made for k2..... http://forums.3drealms.com/ubb/icons/icon122.gif

Krursk

10-23-2002, 06:18 AM

Are you sure you are not working for a company selling the technology and cleverly disguising yourself as a forum regular??? well for 3 easy payments of $39.95...

Heh nope, I just think its a very cool feature and it looks a little cheap when you see a body with its legs in a wall while levitating over a gap.

biXen

10-23-2002, 06:42 AM

The ultimate is still animation first then taken over by a limited ragdoll effect. Animations look much more movielike when they are handmade IMO. Reality is too boring images/icons/wink.gif

Guest

10-24-2002, 01:36 PM

Krursk

10-24-2002, 09:09 PM

It isn't really a suggestion on the fx engine, but improving Rasmaker would be good.

Why not improve it so that you can 'close' your package. This would be for people who don't want to have their mod contents ripped.1. If people want to rip from you they will just crack through any protection you put on it.

2. Why slow/stop other mods and limit the information pool?

Maddieman

10-25-2002, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by Krursk:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />It isn't really a suggestion on the fx engine, but improving Rasmaker would be good.

Why not improve it so that you can 'close' your package. This would be for people who don't want to have their mod contents ripped.1. If people want to rip from you they will just crack through any protection you put on it.

2. Why slow/stop other mods and limit the information pool?<hr /></blockquote>I haven't seen an .lvl ripper yet.

Besides it would dissuade the countless n00bs from ripping your stuff, changing a few values (a skin texture, infinite bullet time, etc) and then claiming it as their own work. I'm all for helping the community, and I always try my best to help people out with their most to as full an extent as possible. But people who rip off your work without even trying to expand on it, or learn from it, are the ones that piss me off. images/icons/mad.gif graemlins/tinyted.gif

Perhaps a selected locking system - so you could set read/write privileges to files.

As for expanding the information pool, well there are plenty of tutorials; and these forums of course - you just have to have the courtesy to ask once in a while.

[ 10-25-2002, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

biXen

10-25-2002, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by Maddieman:
But people who rip off your work without even trying to expand on it, or learn from it, are the ones that piss me off.You just described 99% of the unpacking RAS usage. If this was a bigger community maybe a locking mode would be cracked, but it isn't, and even then it would require an effort, and someone who's to lazy to make something themself shouldn't bother to manage to rip open a RAS file.... eventhough we know they will probably try, not thinking it's actually possible to make something themself images/icons/tongue.gif

Cathome

10-25-2002, 08:48 AM

Ok, I've posted this once, but I'll try again. When I've exported my *.lvl file, and tried to start it with the game, there were a message smth like "the player start cant be found". Also I used not Rasmaker, but another utility. Also I cant run any of your mods: game says that "this *.mpm file is not valid savegame or not supported". Maybe smb will tell me smth?

Maddieman

10-25-2002, 08:51 AM

Also I used not Rasmaker, but another utility QED...but this should be in the modding forum.

SkavenRMD

10-26-2002, 12:50 AM

Besides it would dissuade the countless n00bs from ripping your stuff, changing a few values (a skin texture, infinite bullet time, etc) and then claiming it as their own work.Then what are the extra skins in the Katana mod, if not slightly modified original meshes from the game?

Maddieman

10-26-2002, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Besides it would dissuade the countless n00bs from ripping your stuff, changing a few values (a skin texture, infinite bullet time, etc) and then claiming it as their own work.Then what are the extra skins in the Katana mod, if not slightly modified original meshes from the game?<hr /></blockquote>There are no new skins in the katana mod - some n00b ripped off my mod and added them. graemlins/tinyted.gif