Terrorist Attacks in India

[Joe Siegler]

Usually when we hear about these things, they tend to go away fairly quickly, since they're mostly just bombings. This seems way worse. From what I've seen on the news, the feeling is that the situation isn't totally under control.

Kalki, when I first saw this, I thought about you, since you're in India, but the fact you've been online a few times since I first saw this tells me you're OK. How's it going over there? You anywhere near any of this stuff? I know little of the Geography of India.

[Steve]

We currently cannot get into contact with one of our friends there. We're naturally worried. :(

[evanazzo]

This is very very sad news. I hate hearing of these attacks. I hope everything is okay with everyone who lives over there.

Last I heard I believe they still had hostages. :\

[Nessus]

I thought of you also Kaliki when I heard this. Whats the feeling like in the country? Are you near this or has it affected you?

There is a Rabbi and his wife from Brooklyn that are hostages. I think they are in some kind of Jewish building that is under commando assault by the Indian government as we speak.

[Phait]

Now I understand what my Indian-American friend meant by her being worried about her stepdad in India.

I hope the situation resolves soon, and hopefully this won't escalate and perpetuate badly like other countries. India is a beautiful country with generally nice people who have a fascinating culture, I'd hate to see it really deteriorate.

[Kalki]

I'm fine, thank you. I live in South Mumbai and while so far this hasn't affected anyone I know, it's rattled us all. While none of the confirmed attacks are near where I live, the CST railway station where around 47 people were killed is within walking distance from our office. My cousin lives near the Taj hotel and they could hear the gunfire and blasts.

Just found out that an old friend and current chat buddy was near or at practically most of the major of these locations that night. Witnessed the first victims at the Taj and stayed ahead of the rest by mere minutes having visited one before, and moved to one after, later driving past a third. She's always been, what I call 'unusually accident-centric' but this just takes the cake. :brickwall:

[Hyperactive Slob]

I feel for Kalki And Sayantan. It's good to hear Kalki's ok. I hope the situation doesn't escelate and we don't loose more people to these asshats.

[Yatta]

Also, http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/fugitives.htm .

[NutWrench]

My thoughts go out to the families of victims of these horrible acts.

[Yatta]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_india_shooting


Sigh...

[Joe Siegler]

Thanks a lot guys. Thanks for taking a concerned about Kalki thread and turning it into the usual nonsense we get when something serious is posted.

Don't bring it back up again, and DON'T reply to this in the thread.

:mad:

[ZuljinRaynor]

Well, damn. I've got a few Indian friends, not sure if they have any family there. Best wishes to everyone. :(

[John]

Hope youre okay Kalki, your friend too.

[Denz]

Damnit, this is one of the gunner


http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/8411/12278517907743610741gt6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1949/12278513602353617720ia1.th.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=12278513602353617720ia1.jpg)

and this a smart cop
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/8586/12278878318133624050ag1.th.jpg (http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=12278878318133624050ag1.jpg)

[Klaus Kinski]

Does he carry that stone for protection or as a weapon?
"Take that, terrorist scum!" *smash!* :)

[Kalki]

Once again I'd like to thank all of you for your concern. These past few days have been tense for me personally and for everyone who lives here. Can't imagine what those who suffered personal losses must be feeling. Not a day went by without hearing from somebody who knew somebody who had witnessed, escaped or was harmed in the violence. I had occasion to worry about my friend again after there were rumors about further attacks near her location but a few quick SMSs let me know she was fine. The streets in my area have largely been empty since Thursday with few people going to work and several stores closed.

This city has been shit on a lot in the last 2 decades but this was different. These attacks may have ended but there's no telling where we're headed in the future. :(

[Nessus]

You'll probably do what New York did and start spending a fortune to keep this from happening again. NYPD has a global intelligence wing, NY is very terrorist paranoid but I have to say it's mostly invisible, they do a good job of keeping it out of your face. There wasn't much physical damage so once the emotional mood of the city starts coming back to a normal place I think you guys will be back to normal pretty quick.

I just wonder whats going to happen between you guys and Pakistan now. The news was saying rogue elements of Pakistani ISI were involved. Sounds like a geopolitical mess.

[Grande 3:16]

A friend of mine flew out to India last week. Dunno how close he was to the attacks (India is a very big place). Haven't heard anything yet from other friends, so that's a good sign.

[Daveman]

I just wonder whats going to happen between you guys and Pakistan now. The news was saying rogue elements of Pakistani ISI were involved. Sounds like a geopolitical mess.
It always gets blamed on "rogue elements" of some government agency and I find it hard to believe that anyone could operate with that much independence. A rogue element of their ISI would have to be a pretty sizable group to plan anything like this. I wonder if it'll come out that it was pretty well-organized and condoned by the Pakistani government. :(

[Nessus]

Thats what I was thinking, it was a hell of a rogue element.

Really though planning this was a piece of cake. It's not like it was so sophisticated. Any group of high school students could have spent a few weeks preparing and got the same results.

[Hellbound]

Really though planning this was a piece of cake. It's not like it was so sophisticated. Any group of high school students could have spent a few weeks preparing and got the same results.

Sounds like a plan!

[Water12356]

Kalki im glad your ok!

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/29/india.attacks/index.html

:eek: coulda been worse! Terrible that people would even think about doing this...

[Jiminator]

oh how I wish terrorism would just be ignored by the public and the media. this is simply a natural disaster, natural disasters happen all the time, all around the world, no more, no less. some you can plan for, others you can't. there are a thousand things more likely to kill you than terrorism, yet it gets all the focus. the reason there are terrorists is because it is so effective as a communication method. if they were ignored, if they received no publicity, do you think it would still happen? there will certainly be events, but considering them to be on the same level as natural disasters takes all the drama, all the "news" out of the event. a miniscule amount of people die every year from terrorism. dramatizing it just makes it more effective.

[Klaus Kinski]

You can ignore terrorism. That's not like ignoring the large elephant in the room, it's ignoring a freaking stampede of them. When enough people die, people wll talk about it. One IS enough IMO. This is scary shit, I can still vividly remember when my brother was for a job interview in London during the terrorist attacks. You won't ignore that.
What I worry most about is that all this will worsen the relationship between Pakistan and India. The very last thing the world needs, is a war between those two. Unfortunately, the finger pointing has already begun.

[Jiminator]

the point it that a little rag-tag group of people are affecting national policies and controlling the movement of trillions of dollars based on terrorism. take your own statement, "fear" your brother had during the london strikes. yet despite that he'd be much more likely to die in any american city from a mugging, not to mention the chance of dying just stepping inside a car. the sensationalistic aspect makes people's logic process absolutely flee. for example, when people are asked if they would like to buy airplane life insurance or airplane life insurance against terrorist acts more people chose the latter type of insurance. that is despite the fact that the former includes the latter scenarios. terrorism allows people to "visualize" how horrible a thing is, despite people dying from similar type of events in war torn nations on a daily basis. when you buy terrorism you are only strengthening a cause. the mind tends to take the statement "many terrorists are muslim" and switch it into "many muslims are terrorist" when in fact it is only a miniscule amount of people. terrorists love that they generate racism for general muslims, that helps their recruitment efforts. do people get up in arms about natural disasters? how about 100 thousand people dying in a mud slide? are national policies established based on those 100k deaths? perhaps. what about 3K deaths? will other countries intervene for a natural disaster causing that many deaths?

[Daveman]

Thats what I was thinking, it was a hell of a rogue element.

Really though planning this was a piece of cake. It's not like it was so sophisticated. Any group of high school students could have spent a few weeks preparing and got the same results.
I guess my feeling is just that "rogue elements" of government agencies like this don't really exist at all. The idea that even a dozen people could plan this at their jobs in the intelligence agency and not be found out by their higher-ups is pretty ridiculous. I mean, I really hope it wasn't organized from the top of the Pakistani government but if they're saying it was a rogue element I'm inclined to not believe them.

[Klaus Kinski]

Well, Jiminator, I understand what you mean and I basically think you are right but IMO human nature, especially when we're talking about groups of humans, tend to get worked up about that, they do care and they do show interest. It's part of our nature, I guess. The reality is that we like to hear bad news. Nobody wants to hear that all planes landed safely today but we all tune in when one crashes. When peopler drive past an accident on the road, they don't necessarily drive slower but they all take a look, look for blood and corpses and all that horror. That's why we will always pay great attention to terrorists. Not only our own fears but also the fear of others attract our attention.

[ZaphodB]

It's part of our nature, I guess. The reality is that we like to hear bad news. Nobody wants to hear that all planes landed safely today but we all tune in when one crashes. When people drive past an accident on the road, they don't necessarily drive slower but they all take a look, look for blood and corpses and all that horror. That's why we will always pay great attention to terrorists. Not only our own fears but also the fear of others attract our attention.

I do. I want to hear that all planes landed safely, I want to hear on the news "No one was hurt anywhere today", and I NEVER look to see if someone got injured/killed at an accident, for it would give me nightmares when I would try to sleep, leaving me with several days of no sleep till I shut down from exhaustion. If terrorist acts weren't so hyped in the media we just might (I said might) see less of it. I feel that the media constantly "sensationalizing" on only the bad news around the world only spreads and strengthens the terrorist and demoralizes everyone who watches.

[Klaus Kinski]

Yeah but why is it "hyped" in the media? Because someone is watching it, someone's buying. Single individuals might boycott this morbid interest in everything threatening but I'm talking here about the masses, the general population. Bad news sell better than casting shows and we all know how popular those are. Sad but true.

[ZaphodB]

Yeah but why is it "hyped" in the media? Because someone is watching it, someone's buying. Single individuals might boycott this morbid interest in everything threatening but I'm talking here about the masses, the general population. Bad news sell better than casting shows and we all know how popular those are. Sad but true.

Sadly I have to agree.:(

[Sayantan]

In case anybody is wondering ..... "I'm perfectly alright". In fact, I finished one game and left Mumbai like 6 months back. Now I'm back to Kolkata (Calcutta) for further portfolio development. So next time you hear a nuke hit Kolkata, know that I'm pwned. :p

@ Kalki:

My man I'm so happy to hear you're alright. Mainly because we don't even have each other's chat ID or whatsoever. I was really really worried about you, my ex-colleagues, a few Mumbai friends of mine from the CG community and few from the old SKOAR! community.

[Micki!]

Very reassuring Sayantan... i think... :p

Happy neither you or Kalki got hurt... i don't really know anyone else here who lives in india besides you two... Anyone else i should care for..?

[Sang]

Anyone else i should care for..?

How noble of you, Micki!. ;)

If terrorist acts weren't so hyped in the media we just might (I said might) see less of it.

Well of course if the media wouldn't show them as much we wouldn't see them as much.

Okay okay I know what you were trying to say but anyway I'm quite sure there's a ton more factors that thrive terrorist forces other than "we're scaring those western civvies lol".

[Jiminator]

human nature is not capable of dealing with the improbable. I have recently read "fooled by randomness" and "the black swan" by taleb. In the books he talks about the nature of random events, how we utterly fail at predicting them and how once they happen we over-compensate for future similar events. (the reality is that future events are totally different and typically completely unanticipated) Death by terrorism is highly improbable, you are much more likely to get struck by lightning, killed in a car wreck, have a heart attack, and so forth, and yet compare the way that people react to terrorist stories as compared to these other much likelier ways of dying. For comparison, how about the US was to start a massive new branch of the government dedicated to stopping lightning strikes upon individuals. As part of their duties you will need to subject yourself for inspection for any conductive materials whenever going to any park. People holding metal umbrellas would also be viewed with suspicion. This branch would probably save more lives than homeland security. anyway my purpose here is not to minimize the losses that the people have suffered, just to point out that all losses are tragic, however terrorism gets play in the media and by governments that is disproportionate to the actual event.

[Sang]

Didn't you already say the exact same thing a few posts back? Your point is odd. Basically you're saying having all that tight security because of terrorism is silly. Perhaps it becomes less silly if you realize that thousands of people have lost their lives in the 9/11 attacks. It'd be even more silly to say "well, shit happens, hurr durr" and not undertake any measures to help prevent that from happening in the future.

Death by terrorism is highly improbable, you are much more likely to get struck by lightning

This seems really far-fetched. I doubt that in a year more people get struck by lightning than killed by paramilitary forces. Even so, "you are more likely to die by X than by Y" is pretty meaningless. Like it or not a lot of people are dying because of the consequences of terrorism so if any measures can be taken to reduce that amount of deaths then I'm all for it.

[Nessus]

I had dinner yesterday with an Indian foreign exchange student. He thought that the Indian government was complicit in the attacks. He basically said, " How is it possible that it dragged on for so long unless they had political protection somehow? Possible but I don't know if I buy it. He was Muslim and he said that he thought the government would use this incident to crack down on the minority Muslim population so I think his view was informed by that.

[Sang]

I did read in the newspaper today that the Taj Mahal Hotel owner was informed of a coming terrorist attack. The bloke said that as a reaction he added more security to the front door of the hotel but he failed to expect that the terrorists would come in through the back door (which from what I've heard they did).

I'm not supportive of conspiracy theories but being the owner of a really luxurious hotel is something you probably wouldn't achieve without some considerable intelligence. Surely a man like that would be capable of guessing intruders could come in through the back door. This and other things make this whole situation seem a bit fishy to me. I hope there will be a serious, neutral investigation of this but obviously that's not going to happen.

[Jiminator]

ok, lightning strikes are not a good example. Replace that with motor vehicle accidents, 45000 deaths yearly, suicide, 32000 yearly, homocide, 18000 yearly, falls, 19000 yearly, accidental poisoning, 23000 yearly. All of these have a much greater impact on the US population than all US involved terrorism incidents combined, yet they do not receive the same play in the media, nor are they in the headlines daily, and there are no national policies created for preventing these accidents.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_10.pdf

[Sang]

So now the possiblity of being a victim of terrorism is exclusive to US citizens?

[Nessus]

So now the possiblity of being a victim of terrorism is exclusive to US citizens?


Why do that?
You know exactly the point he was trying to make and he never said it was exclusive to US citizens so why antagonize him for no reason and steer the conversation in a fruitless direction?

We really need to stop doing that kind of thing for the sake of keeping these threads as civil as possible.

[shiranui]

I love the way they say in the news that this is the worse attack since.......2006, when 200 people died.

For the love of Xenu, can't we all just get along?

[Klaus Kinski]

Xenu? LOL

Of course people are more worried about terrorism than car accidents. It is usually the uncommon, the thing that is out of the order, we fantasise about when it comes to fears. Cars are so common, so well known to us, we don't think of them as a danger outside theoretical thinking. We drive in and with them on a daily basis and although we are more likely to be killed by one of those, we can't see them as threat to fear. They're ordinary.
Terrorists are not. The same applies to serial killers when they rule the news. As soon as our attention is drawn to the scary unusual, we're starting to worry about it. Things only really change when the ordinary, trusted thing, like a car, became a threat to you once. Then you might be afraid of that. If you had a bad car accident, you might be so afraid of driving that you'll want to avoid it at all costs. It's similar with dogs. If you grew up with them, if they are ordinary to you, you are less ikely to be afraid of them. Once a dog has bitten you, you might change that perspective. If you didn't have anything to do with dogs in your youth, you are very likely to be intimidated by them.

[Nessus]

Another attack, train bomb this time. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/3_killed_30_wounded_in_Assam_train_blast/articleshow/3782797.cms

[Grande 3:16]

Of course people are more worried about terrorism than car accidents. It is usually the uncommon, the thing that is out of the order, we fantasise about when it comes to fears. Cars are so common, so well known to us, we don't think of them as a danger outside theoretical thinking. We drive in and with them on a daily basis and although we are more likely to be killed by one of those, we can't see them as threat to fear. They're ordinary.
Terrorists are not.In 2004 my friends and I were going to Bali for a holiday. About a week before we were set to go, terrorists hit the Australian embassy in Jakarta. As soon as that happened I was saying "That's it, we're not going!" and was ready to cancel.

Then it occurred to me that I jump in my car and drive to work everyday and never think that I could be killed in a car crash at anytime.

We ended up going anyway, and as soon as we were there it was the furthest thing from our minds.

[Kalki]

http://dessertfox.blogspot.com/2008/12/bombay-shooting.html

This email was passed on to me by my friend who lives in Bombay (Mumbai), India.


Written by an Insead student…




Dear friends,

First, I wanted to thank you all for the incredible concern and support that you'll have given me over the past few days which have been among the most emotionally and psychologically draining of my life.

By the grace of God my father was rescued from the Oberoi on Friday with two (minor) bullet wounds and is now speedily recovering. He did however lose the two best friends he was dining with that fateful night (who are like godfathers to me). We also lost a lot of other friends and colleagues and have watched our beloved city reduced to a war zone and brought to its knees.

On Wednesday night, my father and his two friends arrived at the Indian restaurant on the first floor of the Oberoi Hotel for dinner at about 10pm. They had barely sat down when they heard gun shots in the lobby of the hotel. The terrorists, armed with AK-47s, grenades and plastic explosives, had entered the hotel and were executing everybody sitting in the ground floor restaurant. Realizing the situation, the staff of the restaurant my father was in asked them to quickly exit through the kitchen. As the guests tried to rush into the kitchen, one terrorist burst into the restaurant and began to shoot anyone that remained in the restaurant. At this point my father was in the kitchen and along with his two friends rushed to the fire exit. They had barely descended a few steps when they were trapped from both ends by terrorists.

The terrorists then rounded up anyone alive (about 20 people) and made them climb the service staircase to the 18th floor. On reaching the 18th floor landing they made the people line up against a wall. One terrorist then positioned himself on the staircase going up from the landing and the other on the staircase going down from the landing. Then, in a scene right out of the Holocaust, they simultaneously opened fire on the people. My father was towards the center of the line with his two friends on either side. Out of reflex, or presence of mind, he ducked as soon as the firing began. One bullet grazed his neck, and he fell to the floor as his two friends and several other bodies piled on top of him. The terrorists then pumped another series of bullets into the heap of bodies to finish the job. This time a bullet hit my father in the back hip. Bent almost in double, crushed by the weight of the bodies above him, and suffocating in the torrent of blood rushing down on him from the various bodies my father held on for ten minutes while the terrorists left the area. When he finally had the courage to wiggle his arms he found that there were four other survivors in the room. They communicated to each other by touch as they were too afraid to make a sound. My father moved just enough to allow himself room to breathe and then lay still. The survivors passed over twelve hours lying still in the heap of bodies too afraid to move. They constantly heard gunfire and hand grenades going off in the other parts of the hotel. They feared that any noise would bring the terrorists back. After approximately twelve hours, the terrorists returned with a camera and flashlight and joked and laughed as they filmed what they thought was a pile of dead bodies. They then moved to the landing below where they set up explosives. On their departing, my father decided that it was too risky to remain where they were due to the explosives. Along with the other three survivors he climbed the rest of the stairwell, where they discovered a large HVAC plant room in which they decided to take shelter. They passed the rest of the siege hiding in this room trying to get the attention of the outside world by waving a makeshift flag out of the window. They drank sips of dirty water from the Air Conditioning unit to survive. Finally on Friday morning they were spotted by a commando rescue team that was storming the building and were evacuated to safety and taken to the hospital.

This is just one of the countless horror stories that unfolded in those two days. There are many stories of entire families being wiped out while eating their dinner, or young kids losing both parents, or pregnant women being shot while pleading for their lives, or hostages being beaten to death with the butt of a rifle so that their faces were unrecognizable. The terrorists attacked on every level. They killed middle class workers when they shot up the railway station, they killed the elite in the hotels, they killed tourists and kids as they ate in a café, and they killed the sick and dying when they stormed three hospitals. They shot people in the roads, in stations, in hotels, and even entered an apartment building. They killed Indians, Americans, Britons, Israelis, and several other nationalities. They killed men, women, children, policemen, firemen, doctors, patients. This was systematic, cold-blooded, slaughter.

We have lost a lot of friends, colleagues, and acquaintances. Every person who lives in South Mumbai has a story about how either they or someone they love either died or had a narrow escape. The true extent of the horror will only make itself clear over the next few days.

Mumbai is a proud city and we pride ourselves on bouncing back from any adversity. We survive and prosper despite all the difficulties placed on us. We are no strangers to terror and have had to pick up the pieces and move on after several attacks. This time however, the sheer scale and audacity brought the city to its knees. The openness of our society, the bustling hoards in our train stations, the vibrancy of our news media, and the thousands of tourists, diplomats, and business leaders packing our hotels was used against us to devastating effect.

In the end one tries to make sense of all this. Barack Obama said about the killers of 9/11: "My powers of empathy, my ability to reach into another's heart, cannot penetrate the blank stares of those who would murder innocents with such serene satisfaction."

Unfortunately, this is becoming an all familiar scene in today's world. While I cannot understand, I recognize again and again the hatred, anger, and desperation of the terrorists and the cold blooded, targeted, ruthlessness of those that dispatch them. They respect nothing but their own twisted beliefs and to achieve them have declared war on an entire way of life. India now finds itself as a major front of this global war.

How do we fight such hate? How do we inject humanity into such monstrosity? How do we convince those who think they kill in god's name that no God would condone such barbarity? How do we maintain our own values and humanity when faced with such hate and provocation?

Over the next week as we say goodbye to those we lost and help those that survive, Mumbai and India will ask themselves these questions. I hope the rest of the world does too.

I will remain in Mumbai for at least a week to help out with various things, after which I will probably return to complete P2 at INSEAD. Right now, though I miss all everyone at INSEAD, I cannot fathom sitting in a classroom.

Thanks again for all your thoughts and prayers.

Rohan

[Daveman]

Hard to read :(

[Micki!]

Yeah, that's a pretty awful story...

[fast-1]

After reading your post Kalki I thought about did the terrorist requests something about freeing hostages, and I wonder who started shooting first the army or the terrorist, but wonder why these things keep happening.

Glad your father escaped and was not hurt.

[Joe Siegler]

Once again I'd like to thank all of you for your concern. These past few days have been tense for me personally and for everyone who lives here. Can't imagine what those who suffered personal losses must be feeling. Not a day went by without hearing from somebody who knew somebody who had witnessed, escaped or was harmed in the violence. I had occasion to worry about my friend again after there were rumors about further attacks near her location but a few quick SMSs let me know she was fine. The streets in my area have largely been empty since Thursday with few people going to work and several stores closed.

This city has been shit on a lot in the last 2 decades but this was different. These attacks may have ended but there's no telling where we're headed in the future. :(

How far away from the Taj or the other big hotel do you live?

[Kalki]

After reading your post Kalki I thought about did the terrorist requests something about freeing hostages, and I wonder who started shooting first the army or the terrorist, but wonder why these things keep happening.

Glad your father escaped and was not hurt.

That was NOT my father, just an e-mail that got forwarded around. Somebody put it up on their blog, which I linked to.

How far away from the Taj or the other big hotel do you live?

About 20-30 minutes by car.

[Tang Lung]

Normally when I hear about things like this in the news, my reaction is almost always anger. The need for vengance of people whom I've never even met is something I don't understand, but I feel it never the less. Not this time though.

The only thing I feel when I read these news reports is utter sadness and bafflement at the situation. This isn't a new thing...this has been happening since the dawn of time..and I'm afraid it always will happen.

Even though this is not an everyday occurance (nor do I believe it's an increasing occurance either, though don't quote me on that), it's an event with such magnitude and randomness that it's understandable why people are afraid. It's an instant reminder of just how sacred your life and the lives of others are. If everyone just lived their life with other people in mind, with respect, honour and trust..maybe the human race can evolve a little into a less miserable species.

My post is probably overly dramatic, but anyway..my thoughts.

[Sayantan]

WHat is that area Kalki? I might visit you next time I come back to Mumbai. :)

I USED TO work at Marol Industrial Estate (pretty ironic for a game-dev studio) and lived on Military road (20 minutes walk). I might come down to an ex-colleagues place in January, who lives in Borivali.

[Denz]

This is pretty horrible

Mumbai photographer: I wish I'd had a gun, not a camera. Armed police would not fire back

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/mumbai-photographer-i-wish-id-had-a-gun-not-a-camera-armed-police-would-not-fire-back-14086308.html

"There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything," he said. "At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, 'Shoot them, they're sitting ducks!' but they just didn't shoot back."

[Nessus]

An interesting take on the perpetrators from India Daily. http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/17121.asp

[John]

Nobodys going to want to read/think that, not even if it were 1/100th remotely true, like old myths/rumours of the CIA's actions back in the 50s and 60s, (especially during Kennedy's administration/assassination, he wasn't even aware of their intentions...) or their actions in Afghanistan during the 1970s/80s, or their actions in Iraq/Iran during the mid to late 1980s... nobody wants to think about it and they will just disclaim it as conspiracy theory.

I personally wouldn't know/think to assume what Bush's intentions are. I'm on the fence because part of me wants to take him at his word, because he just doesn't seem like THAT much of an "evil mastermind" to do what the article suggests. But other parts of me knows he isn't a stupid man and while he is a terrible speaker/makes gaffes every chance he gets, he is much more capable than people realize. I wouldn't worry anyways, soon we'll have a new president.

[Nessus]

What Bush thinks is irrelevant. These things have been going on for decades and have their own momentum at this point. I don't know if it's true but it's certainly possible. Why would you think Obama will change anything? He is busy hiring people that have been part of the problematic system for years. He'll make some change but I'm looking for things to hum along pretty much the same as they always have. Ron Paul was the only one who was actually going to change anything but no one wanted to hear it.

[John]

I was moreso talking about the articles' mention of the the "Bush junta" and how he's had influence in that region of the world for the elites' tactics.

If anything I think Obama will change our general outlook/thinking when it comes to foreign policy and
diplomacy.

Ofcourse if there is any sort of "secretive CIA" shit going on then he wouldn't know about it. If what Bush thinks is irrelevant then either he doesn't know about it, or he does know about it and agrees with it. My personal opinion is that Kennedy had an interest in the CIA's dealings and poked his nose around too much..

[Nessus]

My personal opinion is that Kennedy had an interest in the CIA's dealings and poked his nose around too much..[/hypothetical]
Agreed.

Now it's looking like the Pakistani ISI either had a hand in it or knew about it.http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/world/2008/12/08/pakistan-raids-terror-camps-believed-tied-to-mumbai-attacks.html I don't see how they didn't know if the CIA knew and warned India about the upcoming attacks. The ISI has been under the CIA's wing since their inception. You've probably heard the famous story about the former head of the ISI having breakfast with US intelligence leaders on the morning of 911. http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO206A.html

It was later revealed that he was the bag man who paid off Mohamed Atta. The US didn't seem very concerned about that. The global politics of the intelligence services is pretty interesting stuff. They with wall street and the corporations really do operate a global shadow government. I'll be watching to see how this whole thing with India shakes out.