US Digital TV Transition Question

[Joe Siegler]

First off, I hope it goes over in February, and not June. Folks have been saying it's coming for years, the February date has been known for quite a long time now. What are you waiting for, people? If you didn't notice by now, go dark. Meh.

Anyway, the question I have is this. In all the talk we see about the big digital switchover, the talk is that the air wave space that is currently allocated for over the air analog television signals is going to be reassigned for other use. What is going to happen at some point down the road if I plug in rabbit ears to one of my old television sets without a digital converter box? Will my TV set pick up whatever is using that old spectrum space?

I'm sure if it's data, it'll be encrypted, but what if it's used for voice or something? Will my old TV set become the new police scanner radio of the next decade? :)

[Phait]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTV_transition_in_the_United_States#Frequency_real location

Frequency reallocation

The reclaimed channels will be used for a variety of service, including MediaFLO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaFLO) (55), DVB-H (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVB-H) (52/54), public safety (60/61 base, 68/69 mobile), and mobile phones (in a band that is not used anywhere else).

The elimination of UHF channels, rather than VHF channels as in the rest of the world, precludes the use of band III (high VHF) for Digital Audio Broadcasting as is standard elsewhere. It also makes more difficult the reassignment of channels 5 and 6 (76 to 88MHz) for LPFM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LPFM). There are also no channels set aside for analog broadcasts of the Emergency Alert System, rendering most portable emergency TV sets useless (portable ATSC sets have started to appear[29]), as there are no portable converter boxes, and mobile ATSC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC-M/H) is not yet available.

A Google-sponsored program called Free the Airwaves has started with the goal of using the "empty" white space within the remaining TV for unlicensed use, like for Wi-Fi.

[Joe Siegler]

I still wonder what my old TV will do - one has to think there might be signal bleed, that it might see something. I doubt it will be just static.

[Mr.Fibbles]

You will pick up the signal that the US is using to contact aliens.
*tinfoil hat*



Honestly, I have no idea but now that you bring it up I am curious...

[Jiminator]

actually they say the static you see on tv is leftover noise from the creation of the universe...

[LeadBullet]

I've been saying they should do a compromise.

Have the stations start broadcasting HD on the February date, and then from that date until the proposed June cutoff date, all analog channels would then broadcast nothing but a text screen telling them to get with the god damn program and go get a converter box, and maybe coupon info if its still available.

That way if idiots still don't have their shit in gear by the February date, their TV will tell them on every channel what to do. When their TV is finally dead they'll get off their fat ass and do something about it. Until then they'll just be lazy.

[Waiter]

I still wonder what my old TV will do - one has to think there might be signal bleed, that it might see something. I doubt it will be just static.

More or less just static. At the most, you may be able to see some disturbances in the static as indication that there is some kind of signal, but as it won't be of a format that renders a visible image on the TV, it won't look much different to the rest of the white noice. Just like searching between channels today.

Either get a digital box or make yourself a new aquarium. ;)


I've been saying they should do a compromise.

Have the stations start broadcasting HD on the February date, and then from that date until the proposed June cutoff date, all analog channels would then broadcast nothing but a text screen telling them to get with the god damn program and go get a converter box, and maybe coupon info if its still available.

I don't really see how that would be a compromise if the only difference would be that your TV shows a text message instead of white noice. The channels are still down. If the transition is anything like it was in the european countries, it will be impossible not to know or at least who to turn to to get help.

Also, the transition has nothing to do with the stations broadcasting HD, it's a transition from analog to digital signals. It allows HD broadcasting but most channesl will most likely remain in "normal" quality.


Digital broadcasting has it's two sides just like anything else. For people with strong signals (cities or close to transmittors) the image is better, but if you live in a small village or on the countryside some distance from the transmittors, there can be problems. On analog, you could watch a channel with a weak signal with a bit reduced quality. On digital TV the image is either top notch or not at all. Compare to VHS and DVD. You can still watch bad video tapes but if you have ever tried to watch a DVD where the quality was so bad that the player can't make up for it, you'll know what digital TV can mean for some people in areas with lowsignal quality under bad conditions.

[peoplessi]

In europe many countries have made the switch already, Finland amongst them. As explained above, your TV will not be able to get nothing but static, since the digital format is totally different. Good news is, that the old analog space can be re-assigned to digital use, making more bandwitdh available to it.

Lowsignal means artifacts in the image, with very poor reception you will see a lot of artifacts(blocking up, smearing and all that) :)

[NutWrench]

Anyway, the question I have is this. In all the talk we see about the big digital switchover, the talk is that the air wave space that is currently allocated for over the air analog television signals is going to be reassigned for other use. What is going to happen at some point down the road if I plug in rabbit ears to one of my old television sets without a digital converter box? Will my TV set pick up whatever is using that old spectrum space?

I'm sure if it's data, it'll be encrypted, but what if it's used for voice or something? Will my old TV set become the new police scanner radio of the next decade? :)

A long time ago, I had an old boom-box that could scan the shortwave frequencies and UHF up through the 800Mhz band. A couple of years later, after I had got rid of it, analog cell phones started using those frequencies. I often wonder what I might have heard if I still had it. Once cell phones got started, the Feds made it illegal to make receivers that could listen in on those frequencies, but I suppose my boom-box would have been ok, since it pre-dated the ruling.

On the TV, I guessing you'll probably see static with narrow, horizontal bands of interference from the data stuff. Which reminded me of a neat bit of trivia:

Some people in the mid-west used to use their TVs as tornado detectors. Apparently, tornadoes generate a lot of RF noise around channel 2 due to all the electrical discharge going on within it. If you turn down the brightness on the TV so that the picture is just barely visible, an approaching tornado will cause the screen to brighten as it gets closer.

[Nessus]

Great question Joe. It has to pick up something even it's just noise and funny squiggles. Maybe someone could point a camera at the noise and have a computer program reverse engineer the signal.

Maybe it'll make weird colors and cool patterns, a poor mans psychedelia.

[Scotty]

If the new transmissions are in analog format, it may be possible to snoop. I'm not sure if a pre-1980s rotary UHF tuner or a modern PLL tuner would be best for this.

If the new transmssions are in digital format, I'd imagine it would sound something like what happens when a computer soundcard or DVD player accidentally sends a 5.1 digital bitstream to a set of analog speakers. :eek:

[Phayzon]

Honestly, I have no idea but now that you bring it up I am curious...

Me too :insomnia:
Obviously, youre TV wont pick up data and I doubt any type of video will be transmitted (seeing as thats what theyre stopping now, afterall). Perhaps they'll transmit audio and you can pick that up.

Maybe it'll make weird colors and cool patterns, a poor mans psychedelia.

Haha :D

[NutWrench]

Grrrr . . . 4 more months of those stupid notices:
(http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/04/BU5L15N8V6.DTL)
Digital TV conversion delayed until June 12

(02-04) 13:32 PST SAN FRANCISCO -- Television viewers who rely on sets with antennas to pick up their broadcast signals have about four extra months to get ready for the nation's switch to digital TV.

The House of Representatives voted 264 to 158 today to move back the Feb. 17 deadline to June 12, sending the fast-tracked legislation to President Obama, who has promised to sign it. The vote, largely along party lines, gives approximately 6.5 million unprepared households more time to prepare for the day when all analog TV broadcasts are turned off.

"We are not ready for this transition," said U.S. Rep. Anna Eshoo, D-Palo Alto, during the House debate. "We can fix these problems and minimize this catastrophe if we pass this legislation."

The Senate first passed the bill . . .

[Blue Lightning]

Joe, I learned this as a kid in Ohio.

You can still use your old TV as a radar of sorts. In the springtime it can come in handy. If you put it on channel two (or is it channel 13?) during a storm, everytime lightning strikes within 20 miles, the whole screen flashes. However, if there is a tornado or funnel cloud within 20 miles of your home, the screen will brighten up and stay bright...that is no joke.

So your old set can be used as a radar when things get dangerous ;)

EDIT: Ahh, it is 2 and 13...that is why I was confused. I just found this on the internets...

TORNADO WARNING SYSTEM
Warm up the TV set and tune to channel 13. Darken the screen to almost
black.

Turn to channel 2 and leave the volume control down unless you have a
broadcaster on that channel. The TV becomes a tornado detector as
explained.

"As a storm approaches, lightning will produce momentary white bands of
varying widths across the screen. Color sets produce a colored band. A
tornado within 15 and 20 miles will produce a totally white screen and
remain white, or color on color sets.
Should this occur, turn off your TV set, take your portable radio and go
to a place of shelter immediately.

This system was discovered by Newton Weller of West Des Moines, Iowa after
twelve years of study. It works because every TV set has channel 2 set at
55 megacycles. Lightning and tornadoes generate a signal near this
frequency which overrides the brightness control Channel 13 is at the
"high" end of the frequency band and is not affected. This is why the
darkness must be set on that channel.

Keep a protable radio handy for emergency instructions and in case of
power failure. LIghtning will cause intermittent static on a radio tuned
on 550 kilocycles. A tornado will cause steady, continuous static.

The above was featured as the Safety Topic in a newsletter of Argonne
National Laboratory."

[8IronBob]

Got that right, and this would almost be a "last minute" delay, since it's, what? Feb. 5, and the transition is such a close date, after all, Feb. 17's just less than two weeks away, that well, it would probably not sync in with everybody this close to the original date, which makes a last minute delay to June almost, like a back stab, something along those lines. Here I am with a 46" Samsung myself, and I'm definitely one of the prepared ones. To have this happen at a time like this... Heh.

[Joe Siegler]

Have the stations start broadcasting HD on the February date, and then from that date until the proposed June cutoff date, all analog channels would then broadcast nothing but a text screen telling them to get with the god damn program and go get a converter box, and maybe coupon info if its still available.

I thought there's supposed to be a small time where they are broadcasting that message after the actual cutoff anyway - something like a week? Am I remembering this right?

This brings up another concern. Some civil rights something will show up in June and say "we're not ready - we need more time!" That's why I was saying "Uh, this has been talked about for how long now, and you still don't know about it? You deserve to go black (or static as the case may be)".

In europe many countries have made the switch already, Finland amongst them. As explained above, your TV will not be able to get nothing but static, since the digital format is totally different. Good news is, that the old analog space can be re-assigned to digital use, making more bandwitdh available to it.

Just to make sure you guys understand..

I KNOW THE NEW DIGITAL SIGNAL WON'T BE PICKED UP. THAT IS THE NOT THE POINT.

I'm curious to see what an old analog TV will "see" once the bandwidth is reallocated to whatever will be using it. I'm not in need of any "help", I don't use rabbit ears anyway (except as a backup, and that's on my HDTV in the living room which is unaffected by all this in the first place).

Got that right, and this would almost be a "last minute" delay, since it's, what? Feb. 5, and the transition is such a close date, after all, Feb. 17's just less than two weeks away, that well, it would probably not sync in with everybody this close to the original date, which makes a last minute delay to June almost, like a back stab, something along those lines. Here I am with a 46" Samsung myself, and I'm definitely one of the prepared ones. To have this happen at a time like this... Heh.

Do you really use just rabbit ears?

To me, the people who rely on rabbit ears and the ones who would be most directly affected are generally people who can't afford a $1500 HDTV which would negate the need for the converter box. It's always been my thought that if you can afford to buy an HDTV, you can also likely afford the satellite or Cable TV which negates the need to care about this in the first place. I always thought people who were rabbit ears only are generally poorer, and can't afford a big ol' HDTV with a digital tuner. Those people are the people the $40 coupons and the converter boxes are for.

Which, by the way I got two of. I have one of them in my closet at home, once the switchover actually happens, I'll keep it around to use on my old analog TV in the bedroom as a backup. The other one is on my TV at work at 3DR. I use it from time to time if a baseball game is on, or like I had it on all day for Obama's Inaguration.

[Dave-ros]

Bah, at least the USA is switching to digital this year. I'm in north-central London, and our digital signal is so weak that a motorbike going past outside makes our signal break up, yet the switchover here won't happen until 2012 (just in time for the Olympics)! While the north of England are switching over now, even though they barely even know what a TV is up there ("does thee mean that box wi' all t' little people in it, 'appen?") :p

[8IronBob]

I thought there's supposed to be a small time where they are broadcasting that message after the actual cutoff anyway - something like a week? Am I remembering this right?

This brings up another concern. Some civil rights something will show up in June and say "we're not ready - we need more time!" That's why I was saying "Uh, this has been talked about for how long now, and you still don't know about it? You deserve to go black (or static as the case may be)".



Just to make sure you guys understand..

I KNOW THE NEW DIGITAL SIGNAL WON'T BE PICKED UP. THAT IS THE NOT THE POINT.

I'm curious to see what an old analog TV will "see" once the bandwidth is reallocated to whatever will be using it. I'm not in need of any "help", I don't use rabbit ears anyway (except as a backup, and that's on my HDTV in the living room which is unaffected by all this in the first place).



Do you really use just rabbit ears?

To me, the people who rely on rabbit ears and the ones who would be most directly affected are generally people who can't afford a $1500 HDTV which would negate the need for the converter box. It's always been my thought that if you can afford to buy an HDTV, you can also likely afford the satellite or Cable TV which negates the need to care about this in the first place. I always thought people who were rabbit ears only are generally poorer, and can't afford a big ol' HDTV with a digital tuner. Those people are the people the $40 coupons and the converter boxes are for.

Which, by the way I got two of. I have one of them in my closet at home, once the switchover actually happens, I'll keep it around to use on my old analog TV in the bedroom as a backup. The other one is on my TV at work at 3DR. I use it from time to time if a baseball game is on, or like I had it on all day for Obama's Inaguration.

Actually, no, I have digital cable from Cox myself, and a 46" Samsung ToC LCD. However, I do usually pull local channels via QAM for HD over a direct cable line as well. So that shouldn't really be any trouble... One of the local stations lost their digital signal this morning due to the single digit temps, most likely, I believe it was Channel 8-1 that went out. I'm gonna test it again this evening to make sure that it's back online. It was on their end, tho, I reprogrammed my TV for nothing.

[peoplessi]

What's with the attitude? Geez

People explained the deal, people didn't assume you would assume to _see something_.

[Joe Siegler]

What's with the attitude? Geez

Excuse me?

Also... http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090205/ap_on_hi_te/tec_digital_tv_transition_12

[Waiter]

I'm curious to see what an old analog TV will "see" once the bandwidth is reallocated to whatever will be using it.

As I said before, if your TV is old enough to really show an "image" between channels, you can check it out already today. (Modern analog TVs only show a blue screen when the TV signal is too weak.) It'll be the same noice that's between channesl today. OK, I know that you have a lot more channels than we do and maybe there's not much space and other types of signals between them.

What you see will of course be depending on what replaces the TV channels, but as it won't have the right format to represent anything recognisable on the screen, it'll most likely just look like disturbances of different kinds in the white noice.


...unless Jodie Foster's dad starts transmitting again. http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/1053/icontinfoil1vx3.gif

[darkportrait]

well its been delayed! and i personally think its good but bad becuase sooo many people will be out of tv but the gov't gave people so much time to buy a converter box plus they even game friggen coupons! coupons! but yeahh.... i forgot were i was going on with this oh wait.... yeah people should have those cruddy boxes by now they only cost $50 and digital converstion is good becuase its allocating a whole new spectrum of information we could use for wireless internet or phones or pirate tv or usefull stuff like that...
but i live in canada so none of this crap applys to me

[The Baskinator]

To me, the people who rely on rabbit ears and the ones who would be most directly affected are generally people who can't afford a $1500 HDTV which would negate the need for the converter box. It's always been my thought that if you can afford to buy an HDTV, you can also likely afford the satellite or Cable TV which negates the need to care about this in the first place. I always thought people who were rabbit ears only are generally poorer, and can't afford a big ol' HDTV with a digital tuner. Those people are the people the $40 coupons and the converter boxes are for.


People who use rabbit ears may also be people who don't particularly care about the quality of their television signal. They just enjoy watching television and don't feel the need to examine in great detail the stubble on Charlie Sheen's face. To insinuate that these people are "generally poorer" is ridiculous.

It's like everyone on The Internets thinks the average person is an iPod-loving, laptop-toting, bespectacled, bearded geek with an Xbox 360 and a Digg account. But most people aren't geeks. Most people are fine with their tube televisions. Most people look at A/V nerds and think, My god, what a waste of money. Different strokes for different folks.

[thefly]

If it wasn't for sports channels, I wouldn't bother with satellite/cable.

[8IronBob]

Now that 3D HD is becoming more of a standard, I'm even wondering if LCD HDTVs will become obsolete, since I don't think that flat panels can handle 3D technology, even the higher end models. I thought that I could, since I have 120Hz mode on mine, and all sorts of stuff, but I guess that if you don't have DLP, well, I guess that I may be SOL. I think that may be a change in digital technology that even flat-panel owners (LCD, plasma) won't even get the benefit of. Whether that's another reason to transition to digital television, it's gonna leave even ones that are ready for the DTV transition without something for sports or movies. When I first used the 120Hz feature on an LCD, I almost thought that would've brought features similar to 3D HD, but I guess that tech's limited to DLP technology, atm. Sad. Didn't choose DLP originally since it needed quite a lot of room to fit it, and it also required a boat load of maintenance to keep it running.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

3D isn't close to a standard when it comes to home viewing. Tv's are not capable of doing it correctly.

[8IronBob]

Ahh, so you think that by the time 3D is a standard, the DLP RPTVs that already have this feature will have been obsolete by then? I was hoping that this feature would come to flat panel TVs, but even with 120Hz Auto-Motion Plus mode which I have on Medium right now, which I thought would almost make motion look like 3D, but I guess even that, or even this year's 240Hz mode would probably not even come close. Hmm...

[peoplessi]

That's still far ahead in the future, people are just now making a large scale transformation to HDTV's.

[Joe Siegler]

Thought of another question.

This cutoff date (now in June) applies to rabbit ears. I recall when it was first announced that cable and satellite didn't have to honor that, but there was indeed a cutoff for them later on down the road, where they too had to eventually go all digital.

Anyone remember hearing anything about that?

[Commando Nukem]

Thought of another question.

This cutoff date (now in June) applies to rabbit ears. I recall when it was first announced that cable and satellite didn't have to honor that, but there was indeed a cutoff for them later on down the road, where they too had to eventually go all digital.

Anyone remember hearing anything about that?

I cant say I remember anything specific, but I do remember the first time they ran the "test" here in Washington we got nothing but white noise. The second time they ran the test we got a perfectly clear signal. I'm wondering if that means we're part of that "second cut off" or something...

Not like I watch much on TV anyway though. ;)

[Dave-ros]

If you're renting equipment from your cable/satellite company, I'd expect them to upgrade you for free, seeing as otherwise you'd have no service at all! If you've bought it, however, that's a different matter -- if you don't buy upgraded equipment, they ought to let you out of your contract when you can't get their TV service any more :o

[ZaphodB]

Satellite is already digital. DirectTV, Dishnetwork, and others like them are DSS companies. DSS stands for "Digital Satellite Service". The changeover for these customers makes no difference whatsoever.

[Rellik66]

Cable on the other hand still has analog channels.

AFAIK, the cable companies are not required to cut off analog channels whatsoever, the only reason they would do so is to make room for more digital content.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_television_transition):
Cable TV systems are not required to convert, but must-carry rules will require local stations to be carried in analog for at least three years after the over-the-air cutoff, until early 2012. Must-carry rules requiring digital-only subchannels to be carried have been a source of contention.

What bugs me is that there are more useful analog channels than there are useful clearQAM (non-encrypted digital) channels. I would hope that if they do cut off the analog channels, they would provide the same channels in ClearQAM. They only like to carry the local digital channels (because they are required to) and a few token cable channels unencrypted.