Australian Fires massive death toll

[Ironside]

This is bad. Massive fires sweep across Victoria in Australia. 65 confirmed dead. This morning it was 25 but just 8 hrs later the death toll raised to 65 and still counting.
http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/DSE/nrenfoe.nsf/LinkView/519C51D981DAE41FCA257257000A5163DC25C965BDA0CAF5CA 2573B400013504
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1127/bushfire17pc2.jpg

[Klaus Kinski]

Holy crap! I hope they get those fires under control very soon. 65 is a surprisingly high death toll.

[Ironside]

The wind today is just unrelenting which is blowing in a north eastern direction feeding the fire. Iam about a 7 hr drive to the northwest of these fires and here the wind is about 25mph, down in Vic Id say the winds are 40mph from what I seen on the news. People these fires just started very recently and there is no sign of the end yet. This is going to get real bad by the time it settles down.

[Ironside]

84 confirmed dead.
lucky little koala..
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9017/koala5lw3.jpg

[Marty]

yeah its all very depressing to hear about the horrific deaths.
also i think this belongs in general messages

[Ramen4ever]

84 confirmed dead.
lucky little koala..
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9017/koala5lw3.jpg

That thing looks evil. In fact it almost looks like a Predator. Predator Koala.
:o

[Fosters Flop]

Now 108 dead :(.

It is going to a eerie day at work as I work for the organisation where Ironside linked to. I have a few colleagues who have been working at the fire front all weekend and others providing mapping support at the emergency control centre which located a floor above me.

[Ironside]

Now 108 dead :(.

It is going to a eerie day at work as I work for the organisation where Ironside linked to. I have a few colleagues who have been working at the fire front all weekend and others providing mapping support at the emergency control centre which located a floor above me.

God bless you and everyone down in Victoria.

[ryche]

Holy cow! I have really nothing else to express my shock. Do they know how it started? Was it on purpose?


belongs to general messages though...

[Fosters Flop]

Just found a former work colleague was a victim of the fires :-(.

[Ironside]

A 15 year old boy was arrested and charged thismoring for starting some of the fires, so my wife told me.
We have had a 2 week long heat spell with no rain so the place was ready to go up. I think there were something like 400-500 fires but that number is now in the 30s so it seems that we may be through most of it.

[Ironside]

Just found a former work colleague was a victim of the fires :-(.
That is really sad, :(

[shiranui]

My Family is in Melbourne. I called them last night and again encouraged them to leave that soon-to-be-desert continent.

[Ironside]

Soon to be? It is already a desert. But it happens to be one of the safest places to live as far as natural disasters go. Sure we get fires and floods but I wouldn't raise my kids anywhere else. This place is the dawn of the morning. It has remained the same for centuries. Its funny, I call my family back in the US and try to encourage them to leave. Ill take my outback lifestyle anyday and I know both of the 2 worlds so "I can" comment on it.

[Ramen4ever]

Soon to be? It is already a desert. But it happens to be one of the safest places to live as far as natural disasters go. Sure we get fires and floods but I wouldn't raise my kids anywhere else. This place is the dawn of the morning. It has remained the same for centuries. Its funny, I call my family back in the US and try to encourage them to leave. Ill take my outback lifestyle anyday and I know both of the 2 worlds so "I can" comment on it.

Personally I'd choose one of the other 'safest places" just to avoid all the damn poisonous spiders and scorpions and ughhh..:(

Are all the fires out now? I hope the victims RiP. Their families must be going through some terrible times at this moment.

[crunchy superman]

http://www.theage.com.au/national/islam-group-urges-forest-fire-jihad-20080906-4b53.html?page=-1

AUSTRALIA has been singled out as a target for "forest jihad" by a group of Islamic extremists urging Muslims to deliberately light bushfires as a weapon of terror.
US intelligence channels earlier this year identified a website calling on Muslims in Australia, the US, Europe and Russia to "start forest fires", claiming "scholars have justified chopping down and burning the infidels' forests when they do the same to our lands".
The website, posted by a group called the Al-Ikhlas Islamic Network, argues in Arabic that lighting fires is an effective form of terrorism justified in Islamic law under the "eye for an eye" doctrine.
The posting — which instructs jihadis to remember "forest jihad" in summer months — says fires cause economic damage and pollution, tie up security agencies and can take months to extinguish so that "this terror will haunt them for an extended period of time".
"Imagine if, after all the losses caused by such an event, a jihadist organisation were to claim responsibility for the forest fires," the website says. "You can hardly begin to imagine the level of fear that would take hold of people in the United States, in Europe, in Russia and in Australia."
With the nation heading into another hot, dry summer, Australian intelligence agencies are treating the possibility that bushfires could be used as a weapon of terrorism as a serious concern.
Attorney-General Robert McClelland said the Federal Government remained "vigilant against such threats", warning that anyone caught lighting a fire as a weapon of terror would feel the wrath of anti-terror laws.
"Any information that suggests a threat to Australia's interests is investigated by relevant agencies as appropriate," Mr McClelland said.
Adam Dolnik, director of research at the University of Wollongong's Centre for Transnational Crime Prevention, said that bushfires (unlike suicide bombing) were generally not considered a glorious type of attack by jihadis, in keeping with a recent decline in the sophistication of terrorist operations.
"With attacks like bushfires, yes, it would be easy. It would be very damaging and we do see a decreasing sophistication as a part of terrorist attacks," Dr Dolnik said.
"In recent years, there have been quite a few attacks averted and it has become more and more difficult for groups to do something effective."
Dr Dolnik said he had observed an increase in traffic on jihadi websites calling for a simplification of terrorist attacks because the more complex operations had been failing. But starting bushfires was still often regarded as less effective than other operations because governments could easily deny terrorism as the cause.
The internet posting by the little-known group claimed the idea of forest fires had been attributed to imprisoned Al Qaeda leader Abu Musab Al-Suri. It said Al-Suri had urged terrorists to use sulphuric acid and petrol to start forest fires.

[Opus131]

The joy of multiculturalism.

[avatar_58]

September 7, 2008

Has this been confirmed to be the cause?

[crunchy superman]

Not to my knowledge. Just seemed kinda fishy.

Hmm . . . page seems to be gone now.

[Fosters Flop]

Are all the fires out now? No. This is current situation for private land in Victoria http://mapvisage.appspot.com/fires/FireMap.html . This does not include public land such as state forest and national parks.

The current toll stands at 166.

[avatar_58]

Not to my knowledge. Just seemed kinda fishy.

Hmm . . . page seems to be gone now.

What's the deal with that? :censored:

[Ironside]

Iam a bit disturbed by this whole thing, now it looks like the Islamic extremist had a hand in it..Iam pissed off. Thats a lot of people who were horribly killed in the last few days. Could you imagine being surrounded by those walls of flames? This is disturbing.

[Marty Chang]

I heard 140 people died. 65 is a lot better, but still 65 too many.

I heard CNN interviewed a man who lost 4 of his children to the fire... man, if I was him, I'd personally chase down the guy responsible and shove a hot coal down his throat.

Funny story... a long time ago, my family bought a house from an Eric Thorley in upstate New York. Real nice guy, was a firefighter, and everyone in the community loved him. A few years later, he was convicted and found guilty of arson. Was a shock to everyone in the community, especially us.

[Ironside]

The official number is 170+.
There are people here who would do this /points finger at Islamic extremists. Australia has had some success in stopping howm grown terrorist plots so some of these @ssholes were itching to hurt us. This will no doubt effect the 42 billion stimulus package that we were going to see next month. BASTARDS!

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Given the heat and dry conditions it doesn't take much to start a fire.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that these fires were not arson.

When something awful happens people like to find someone to blame. I'd blame their forest service for not doing controlled burns over a period of years to get rid of all that underbrush aka kindling.

[Ironside]

Some of the fires are believed to be deliberately lit. This is not the first time Islamic terrorists were blamed for starting fires here. They openly talk about it on many occasions.
They do back burn here to reduce the risk in fire season but when you get several people deliberately starting fires here, well, this is the result.

[Fosters Flop]

I'd blame their forest service for not doing controlled burns over a period of years to get rid of all that underbrush aka kindling.

Be careful to comment on what you do not know :).

Since I work for the Department I will say this is done, although doing controlled burns is very damn difficult during the drought Victoria has been enduring for the last few years. At present even during winter / spring a controlled burn can also burn up the State.

The reintroduction of controlled burns was a recommendation made in the Alpine fires of 2003.

I attended a fire briefing this morning and wind and humidity conditions are more favourable for the next few days for fire fighting.

[Grande 3:16]

Real nice guy, was a firefighter, and everyone in the community loved him. A few years later, he was convicted and found guilty of arson.That's actually quite common. There have been many fires here, some fatal, that were started by volunteer firefighters.

A friend of mine was a volunteer firefighter, and he kept persuading me to join up too. But I didn't want to, my argument being that the a-hole who lit the fire is probably standing next to me helping to fight it. I went to a barbecue at his fire house one time, and all the other volunteer fireys kept telling me to go and light a fire the next day so they've got something to do.

Shouldn't even joke about that sort of stuff.

[Ironside]

If your interested heres some footage of our news here in Australia.
Australian news clips (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/video.aspx?videoid=24db0686-365b-4550-9fd4-f0dbf46d31f5)
This next one is some pics that give a good taste of how it is here.
Pictures of the tragedy (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/slideshow_ajax.aspx?sectionid=9016&sectionname=slideshowajax&subsectionid=150966&subsectionname=bigfires)

[Water12356]

Yeow! I hope you guys are ok down there! Stay safe!

[peoplessi]

More news about new fires started by arsonists. That's something I can't understand.

[Steve]

More news about new fires started by arsonists. That's something I can't understand.

You can't understand WHY they did it? Well, the ARE arsonists. :o

[Ironside]

With the fires that big I knew arsonists were involved. The question for me is, what ethnic background are they? I could be wrong about my prediction that they were part of the Islamic background. I could be very wrong about this but I wont be surprised if they turn out to be sympathizers of Al queda. We may never know.

[Opus131]

Amusing thing is that Queensland is getting hammered with rain. My sister lives there and she said one of the towns near her got swamped with water from a river overflow. So one side is on fire while the other is flooded. Gotta love this country.

[Klaus Kinski]

With the fires that big I knew arsonists were involved. The question for me is, what ethnic background are they? I could be wrong about my prediction that they were part of the Islamic background. I could be very wrong about this but I wont be surprised if they turn out to be sympathizers of Al queda. We may never know.

Buddy, you're mixing up ethnic heritage up with religion, that's never a good thing. I could become a muslim, turn radical and bomb Cologne to the moon and still be your perfect aryan gentlemen.
As long as there's no proof, it's better not to assume too much. Don't fall in the scapegoat trap.

[peoplessi]

You can't understand WHY they did it? Well, the ARE arsonists. :o

No Sh*t :)

[Ironside]

Buddy, you're mixing up ethnic heritage up with religion, that's never a good thing. I could become a muslim, turn radical and bomb Cologne to the moon and still be your perfect aryan gentlemen.
As long as there's no proof, it's better not to assume too much. Don't fall in the scapegoat trap.

Islam is a war like religion which calls for the death of those who do not believe. It is so easy for them to get people to kill for them. Open their book to any page and begin to read, you will see. This is not the first time radicals have set fire here. I don't need to wait for proof, there probably wont be any.

If you want to be a fire and brimstone preacher teach the koran, it is absolutely full of fire and brimstone. The author is a mad poet who dreamed of firey comets killing unbelievers and the unification of the believers to the day of the scourge which will destroy the unbelievers and instead of the angels or god bringing about the day of the scourge it is OK for men to bring this day of destruction.
If you haven't read from the book of the Mad Poet then you shouldn't comment on this post.

The law enforcement has begun major investigations on to who started these fires, it could be Aussie kids or a more sinister group of people. time will tell hopefully and the perpetrators will be revealed.

[Klaus Kinski]

I really don't want to start a discussion about religion here and I will comment on this just this one time here. There isn't even a need to reply, 'mmkay?
Have you ever read the old testament? That part of the Bible that comes before they start mentioning Jesus? I read only parts, maybe they were the best, I don't know, but they were full of violent murder and sexual perversion. For silly reasons as well. Read it, it's quite interesting to see on what our culture is partly based on.

That's all I will say.

[Ironside]

Yeah I wont comment on that post so we can just drop the religion bashing, thats part of the problem and nowhere near any solution.

Iam just a bit distraught over these fires.

[Nessus]

Real horrible stuff, I never heard of such a death toll in fires like that. How did so many people get caught, did the initial wave of them come through at night? I'm having a hard time visualizing in the modern age how so many people could get caught like that whereas in California everyone seems to know they're coming miles before hand. Was it the extreme heat that allowed them to move with the wind so much faster? Or is it unique terrain with valley's or something and no way out? any of you guys know what the situation was?

[Ironside]

Most of the deaths were people in cars trying to haul ass out of the danger zone. Theres no doubt that alot of these fires were intentionally set alight by perpetrators not yet caught. The winds were in excess of 30mph this plus the heat wave added to the spread of the flames.
Iam guessing that the finale death toll will be around 320.

[Simon Charles]

Awful. Simply tragic. Hope all our 3dr Autralian friends are okay. Prayers go for the victims.

Poor animals, too.

[thefly]

Angry survivors blame council 'green' policy (http://www.theage.com.au/national/angry-survivors-blame-council-green-policy-20090211-83p0.html)

[Ironside]

That last post makes me think your a suit. Heres the real scoop with a legit link....

The suits dont want to let the people know about the threats made by the extremists last year. I guess they have their reasons and I respect that but to those who have paid attention over the years its not a big mystery as to who would have the motives of starting these fires. Here in Australia the MSM avoids the subject like the plague, but in the UK the press ran with the story. A few days ago FOX NEWS (http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,490306,00.html) ran the story too. Here, Down Under, even the conservative blogger Andrew Bolt chickened out and banned any posting relating Muslims to the threats they made last year.

[Grande 3:16]

Are these the same Islamic extremists that apparently didn't cause 9/11? :confused:

[Ironside]

I wont comment anymore about the perps because apparently this is a national security issue and I dont want to get in trouble. You heard my opinion and the opinion of the expert in the link I provided. Take it as you will. They wont admit it for some time because anything that effects the security of any nation must be kept hidden from the public.

The fires were terrible. The truth is shocking. The public is unaware. May God help us all.

[Phait]

Oh so you have "insider conspiracy info" now? Do you work for the military?

[peoplessi]

There have been a lot of discussion of terrorist groups taking the arson route against "western world". So it's not totally unfounded.

[Commando Nukem]

Oh so you have "insider conspiracy info" now? Do you work for the military?

This isn't knew. There was much suspicision that terrorists had done this in California when we had those major fires over a year ago.

[Pansa]

If you want to be a fire and brimstone preacher teach the koran, it is absolutely full of fire and brimstone.
i take the old testament for that, thankyouverymuch ^^.

and imho its irelevant WHAT scripture you missinterpret or fail to see as anachronism^^.
you can blame it on the religion all you want.
but in the end thats just rationalisation for acts you WANT to believe to be true.

the world is full of people who want to punish those who are "wrong in the head". and while i absolutly see "destroying things because you think its right" as a clear sign of "not right in the head", one could argue that people who activly or passivly forget the NUMBERS in this world might be considered so as well.. especialy by people who are on the recieving end of the HIGHER numbers ...

people pulling the strings prey on people who believe that they are treated unfair, and achive their following by giving "the unfair ones" faces (correctly or incorrectly doesnt matter).

i mean, we abuse JESUS to fight our wars, how much more snafu can islam be ^^.

[peoplessi]

This isn't knew. There was much suspicision that terrorists had done this in California when we had those major fires over a year ago.

Might be the cause, but the real reason lies just in the people that decided to build upon a area that is very prone to have wildfires. The people disregard the build rules. Fires often spread over broad land due buildings are built too close, and have insufficient fireprotection.

National Geographic had an article about this. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/07/fire-season/shea-text/1

It's a recommended read to anyone interested in wildfires.

[Phait]

I'm not discounting that there may have been terrorists involved, it's just his wording was lolsome and wtfsome, quote:

"I wont comment anymore about the perps because apparently this is a national security issue and I dont want to get in trouble."

Gave me the impression he thinks he'd get in trouble by the gov... but perhaps he just meant in trouble here. Sorry for misunderstanding if I have.

[Mister_Anderson]

Well Ive donated.

Awesome to hear the Red Cross has over 50 million dollars worth of donations so far.

[Ironside]

Well Ive donated.

Awesome to hear the Red Cross has over 50 million dollars worth of donations so far.
Good on ya mate, ;)
Iam a at home dad while the wife is at uni studying to be a nurse but we still found some cash to donate. This is where the true spirit of Aussies come out. :D

[Steve]

Good on ya mate, ;)
Iam a at home dad while the wife is at uni studying to be a nurse but we still found some cash to donate. This is where the true spirit of Aussies come out. :D

My wife and I have also donated. Not much, but every bit counts.

[ADM]

I've donated as well.. I'm going to give a bit more on my lunch break as there are a lot of people collecting donations in the city here so I'll give as much as I can afford to.

[Mister_Anderson]

Iam a at home dad while the wife is at uni studying to be a nurse but we still found some cash to donate. This is where the true spirit of Aussies come out. :D

Definately.

And good on you, I'll wager your budget is a lot tighter than ours as the wife & I classify as D.I.N.K.'s.

[Ironside]

I'll wager your budget is a lot tighter than ours as the wife & I classify as D.I.N.K.'s.

lol :)
Yeah were battlers but were free and even though we might be a bit poor were rich with love.

[Grande 3:16]

Busted! (http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25049052-948,00.html)

[Ironside]

I wonder how they had enough evidence to charge this guy. Did he admit guilt? Was there a witness? Anyways this will be an interesting court case. If this turns out to be a real individual and not some ghost the police made up then he will no doubt be one of the most hated persons ever in Oz.

[Marty Chang]

Busted! (http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25049052-948,00.html)

I just like that the fact that he possessed child pornography was mentioned as an afterthought.

[Grande 3:16]

Now it's an electrical fire (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/class-action-into-vic-fires-launched-20090215-87un.html)

[Steve]

You know it scares me to think that people caught up in the fire didn't die from the smoke first... the fire got them :(

[Grande 3:16]

Horrible. I've got bushland right across the road from me, so this is something I often have on my mind. It used to go up in flames about every 2 years, but since I moved in 4 years ago it hasn't fortunately.

[Ironside]

I have a feeling this will happen again next fire season. They should come clean about the facts, we can handle the truth. It is going to take a very vigilant community to stop this from happening again. Iam thinking of satellite security cameras on a massive scale in fire prone areas constantly monitoring next year.

[Grande 3:16]

This morning on the news they were talking about tagging known fire bugs with transmitter wristbands to keep tabs on them.

[Ironside]

Thats a start. Also they should have some sort of C.O.P. (civilians on patrol) during the fire seasons. I know Australian police don't want something like this but really now it's a whole new world with our eco systems now being targeted. Just my thoughts.

[Pansa]

Thats a start. Also they should have some sort of C.O.P. (civilians on patrol) during the fire seasons. I know Australian police don't want something like this but really now it's a whole new world with our eco systems now being targeted. Just my thoughts.
i guess those ideas are either of an unrealistic nature, or overkill.

the footpatrols would need to be massive to yield anything, as would the financial investment into spysattelites (including analysis).

and gpsing known offenders might asswell create cost beyond any measurable effect.

we could instead spray everything with flameretardend! ^^

this is not to mock you, but my opinion is that you might overvalue this problem if compared to our other global (or even your local) problems.
this IS a tragedy, but i feel that some people tend to blow it out of proportion.

[Ironside]

So your ideas are to either spray everything with flamertardent or simply do nothing and focus on other things?

BTW I didnt say anything about a 'foot patrol', thats ridiculous.
During the fire season road blocks/ check points could be set up at crucial points to ensure that only people who belong in there have access, people could patrol areas that may be at risk video recording for a data log, heat and smoke senors could be set up that could form a network of alarms/triggers that could be used to alert the people who are watching, etc, etc...

Its not that hard to come up with ideas mate.

[Pansa]

So your ideas are to either spray everything with flamertardent or simply do nothing and focus on other things?

BTW I didnt say anything about a 'foot patrol', thats ridiculous.
During the fire season road blocks/ check points could be set up at crucial points to ensure that only people who belong in there have access, people could patrol areas that may be at risk video recording for a data log, heat and smoke senors could be set up that could form a network of alarms/triggers that could be used to alert the people who are watching, etc, etc...

Its not that hard to come up with ideas mate.
well imho its quite hard to think of things that arent "out of proportion" or orwellian.

my question there is :
how much do we know about motivation of arsonists in generall?
what % of them is just insane
who "just" wants to cash in on insurance.
moronic accidents?
% age of repeat offenders aso aso.

and i seriously think you underestimate the scopes of your proposals vs the benefitial effect.

you cant prevent people from being *******s. you can make it either unapealing, or try to undermine their reasoning.
i just think we have better use for the time and the money than to try to prevent something that
a) happens naturaly
b) has to many different causations.

ps: the flameretardend idea was sarkasm.
you cant spray the whole continent to NOT go up in flames, either effectifly nor without severe consequences.

if some huge part gets to dry, you could always just forcefully evict that part under martial law preemptivly, shooting anyone there on sight.
that would shure prevent arsony and fires in general.( also sarcasm).

i am compassionate with your personal grief about something like that, especialy if it happens close and or to people you know, but imho that doesnt realy justify trying to go over the top like that.

i just think that you are severly missjudgeing scope vs effectivness of the measures you proposed.
yeah roadblocks are a nice idea, but on how many roads? what about offroadtravel?
do you think that the arsonists will just stop at the roadblock and argue "yeah we want to set some fires, is that ok ?" "please step out of the car?"

the argument here is , wouldnt there be a more efficient way to use the money to reduce the likeliness of such events?
but that would need serious discussions about causation, something that people dont like to do with other people they blame (maybe justified, maybe not).
or to go a step further do we have other "problems" that would relive more dread and/or presure on our societys for a better price to solve first? maybe even some that ARE possibly conencted to THIS problem (if only in part, your proposed terrorism idea springs to mind)

[Ironside]

Iam still not sure of your point other then just disagreeing with me. I do know this, if there are people, say "terrorists" or what have you, that are now going to be targeting our eco systems and food chains then there is going to have to be a major effort in all able peoples to stop them. This is our freedom that's on the line mate. The government will declare marshal law and shut down our lives if this sort of thing becomes the norm. That's just the way I see it. Iam not advocating a batman vigilante squad or anything, just the fact that the public should be made aware of the situation and begin to live their lives with a heightened sense of vigilance. I still think the government should of told the people prior to going to war that the people we were going to fight are prepared to completely destroy the earth before losing. Iam not knocking our governments here in the western world, heck Iam convinced that they have done an outstanding job in keeping the world free from a nuclear conflict so far. I just see that we could totally loose our life styles as we know them if we as the people don't become more vigilant.