Snowboard Hell - anyone seen this yet?

[mafioso]

The great modder Froz has started another project that turns MP into a snowboarding game. I was just wondering what the 3DR folks think about it? What a concept for a mod, turning a 3rd person shooter into a snowboarding game. It is looking to be a full-blown TC in every sense of the word. Froz has already assembled a team and had his first alpha test already. Here is the link for the whole topic on MPHQ's forums: http://www.maxpayneheadquarters.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10516
Its 4 pages long with pics on every page and a movie to download. Check it out cause it looks like once finished, this TC will be a blast to play

[Maddieman]

Froz...completing a TC; yes, and I recently heard that DNF was released yesterday. images/icons/grin.gif


Seriously though, it looks damn cool (I posted a link to one his videos over the weekend). I think he's the only modder in the community who can consistantly produce this totally original material: max gore (which katana was inspired by), payne bros., max match (a multiplayer for max payne), regen, his rpg for the mphq mapping contest, and now this.

He's asked me a couple of questions on ICQ; mainly to do with level items, and how to get them to detect collisions and whether or not the player screws up the stunt. Last time I spoke (sunday), he said he couldn't get it working and he might have to rethink the whole system - hopefully he's fixed that by now.

Looking forward to playing it, but then again I'm also looking forward to his hitman mod, and the skateboard one, and payne brothers 2, and....

One of the biggest problems you face is: as you discover new techniques, you want to try out new ideas; of course no one has enough time to make each and every idea into a full blown tc - so you either make small(ish) mods, or you commit to one tc which incoperates all your ideas and tricks (like k2 or evolution).

Lets wait and see how it goes. images/icons/smile.gif

btw, your link to mphq isn't working.

[biXen]

That's why I don't pay much attention to him... sadly... cause he mostly never finish anything. He's kind of like Da Vinci images/icons/tongue.gif

We still haven't seen a really well-made level. Only gimmicky weapons and effects... well I guess I still have the chance to be the first one to make one. Kemical's level was pretty good, but it was short short short...

Snowboard? I just don't see a reason to make it just to make it. We all know it's nowhere near fitting for this engine, and quite frankly, I'd buy a snowboard game if I wanted to play a snowboard game.... luckily I don't want to images/icons/smile.gif

[mixuk]

Haven't followed the modding scene for Max for a while. But is there even a good linear map-pack for Max with a consistent plot yet?

I mean, it's not like you need to be a genious in scripting. It just needs (lots of) work and good imagination.

Yes, snowboarding sounds cool etc, but heck. As far as I know, there isn't even any decent good single player -levels out there.

(I might be wrong, if you know any cool levels, please enlighten me and i'll take a look)

[Maddieman]

Some good points, Bixen. However, I would disagree with a few.

That's why I don't pay much attention to him... sadly... cause he mostly never finish anything. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At least he has something to show for his efforts. images/icons/tongue.gif

Just kidding; perhaps you will do a DNF and blow the community away from out of the shadows of graemlins/wid.gif . Or perhaps you'll refine your skill with MaxEd, and wait for Max Payne 2 before showing it off. images/icons/smile.gif

We still haven't seen a really well-made level. Only gimmicky weapons and effects... well I guess I still have the chance to be the first one to make one. Kemical's level was pretty good, but it was short short short...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I partially agree with this. Kemical's lobby really looked the part, and stands as an example on how geometry should be done. However, in my personal opinion, I don't think it played particularly well. Although quite new, the Matrix lobby has already established itself as one the most definative (albeit recent) action sequences in a movie - short, explosive, stylish, and not without humor. However, I don't think Kemical's level was able to capture this element. No matter how many mods, add-ons, or music, people have tried to add to it - it doesn't have the right tone or atmosphere.

However, that doesn't mean we should right off every other custom level. MPH has spent a long time on his rave level, and I expect it will be quite impressive when he finishes it. *rrr*bbb*'s (http://www.maxpayneheadquarters.com/dlfile.php?file_id=304) for the mphq contest was graphically spectacular; innotaive uses of Maxed; and in many aspects the ai and the flow of gameplay was more refined than other levels (eg, an enemy hiding behind every corner and every door).

Snowboard? I just don't see a reason to make it just to make it. We all know it's nowhere near fitting for this engine, and quite frankly, I'd buy a snowboard game if I wanted to play a snowboard game.... luckily I don't want to <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True, but you're ignoring the talent and innovations going into developing something unsuited to the engine. Speaking of which, the MaxEd engine isn't particularily suited to martial arts, either. Perhaps I should get Tekken 4 instead. Infact, now that I think about it, why don't I go and make my gibbing mod with ut2k3 or SoF2?

The point is not how well they stand up against the substitues because they never could; as you said, the engine was primarily designed for slow-mo, matrix/john-woo gunbattles. What counts is how well it's implemented with the limited resources on offer. Sure, you can change the textures, and create your own levels; you can also add sound and music; you might even go as far as changing the character models or the animation; but unless you can change the gameplay you still can't call a tc a total conversion. It's the challenge to create something new and original, with something old, which is what drives people like Leikkurri, and myself, on.

Do you actually think we're making our mods to please the thousands of spoilt, arrogant, self-interested, pre-teens who wouldn't give you the time of day, let alone a bit of respect or courtesy? Because, like it or not, they're the only ones that are going to play it.

No offence intended, there's a great (albeit, quiet) communty here and elswhere; but that's a minority. Step outside the comfort zone of good forum moderation, and it's a much uglier story. graemlins/hhg.gif

But is there even a good linear map-pack for Max with a consistent plot yet?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BladeRunner Evolution certainly seems to be heading in that direction.

Yes, snowboarding sounds cool etc, but heck. As far as I know, there isn't even any decent good single player -levels out there <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which is why myself, and others have got into the coding/gameplay element - we can't, and no-one else seems to be able to even come close to the standard of levels set by Remedy.

[ 11-19-2002, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[Bruce Hamilton]

Originally posted by Maddieman:
...even come close to the standard... set by Remedy.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, why must you match the standard set by Remedy? You would expect people who make their living designing levels to be superior to those doing it for fun.

[mph]

Posted by Maddieman:
MPH has spent a long time on his rave level, and I expect it will be quite impressive when he finishes it<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You bet. I'll also be damn pleased to see the back of it images/icons/grin.gif

Posted by mixuk:
But is there even a good linear map-pack for Max with a consistent plot yet?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The plot has to be the most difficult part of the level in my opinion; having to use 3DSmax to make graphic novels puts me off using them (which is why I don't - I'd also have to make artwork too) I'm just opting for doing cinematic sequences in-game and recycling the dialogue that's available, which is still incredibly time consuming.

There's probably not so many levels for Max Payne because everyone thinks it'll be easier and more exciting to do scripting. Which seems a bit ironic as the max-fx tools really seem geared to just expanding on the existing single player experience, not trying to create a wrestling / racing / puzzle game (delete as applicable - I definitely hope no-one tries to do all three together images/icons/wink.gif )

Regarding the snowboard tc, I agree with Bixen's viewpoint (that it's not suited to the engine) But then again that's probably what makes it so interesting... I'd never get involved with the level design for that though, it must be a nightmare graemlins/mryuck.gif

[Maddieman]

Something else just occurred to me with regard to your comment:

So, why must you match the standard set by Remedy? You would expect people who make their living designing levels to be superior to those doing it for fun.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wasn't suggesting that one person could match the quality of Remedy's levels (i.e. graphics, geometry, cutscenes, and DO manipulation); I meant that no one has yet to match their style of level design - enemy placement, furniture placement, the overall feel, and the impact on the gameplay. All these things need to be taken into account; yet after playing so many level based mods, I can't help but think that the focus is on the geometry. They feel very old-school: step through a door and there's an enemy; walk around a corner - kill another enemy; reach an open space - get bombarded by lots enemies.

That is not how they are done in the game. Each kill seems personal, and most gun battles are memorable. The battles are not simply random encounters, there is nearly always a build up to each fight. In addition, it's not simply a case of building the level then adding the enemies (unless you pre-design everything; in which case you would systematically build the level then place the enemies according to the design)- the level design usually goes hand in hand with the enemy placement and scripting to provide multiple outcomes to battle imposed by the player.

Take the opening fight for example: For starters the player isn't pushed into battle from the word go - there's a build up. This moves to a more immediate situation when you return and can hear the thugs chatting on the platform. This immediately gives the upcoming fight a context, and the participants some character. How the Max dispatches them, is up to the player. The player can simply take them out, using the various objects such as the bins or the pillars as cover; or he can draw the enemies into the locker area which provides other exciting opportunities; or the most interesting aspect of this area is the train - lure the enemy onto the track and run, or attempt to blast the goon into the path of the train during the camerapath sequence.

All I'm saying is that there is more to level design than fancy geometry and cutscenes. I'm not saying anyone can do it (and until I get MaxEd working on my pc - I sure as hell can't graemlins/tinyted.gif ). Just like everything else, it takes a lot of time and effort - but you don't need to be an artist, or for that matter, a professional.

having to use 3DSmax to make graphic novels puts me off using them (which is why I don't - I'd also have to make artwork too) <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess that means I'm still ranked #1 as the only person to ever incorporate them into a level. images/icons/smile.gif

My solution was to use the camera and take a snapshot of the scene I was trying to depict - most image editing software apps allow you to effortlessly apply comic/art type filters to the screenshot. In fact I would say that some but not many of the graphic novels were done in this way - at least as a template.

There's probably not so many levels for Max Payne because everyone thinks it'll be easier and more exciting to do scripting. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't get me wrong, I'd love to create some levels too; but since everyone seems to judge maps on their looks, I feel it's a wasted effort. However, there are lots of script hacks to download - either changing the rate of fire, or the damage of projectiles, or adjusting the odd skin here and there - nothing particularly exciting there. As I said, there appears to be very few people doing anything particularly interesting with the code.

In an ideal world, you would be able to take the best coders, the best mappers, the best animators and the best modellers; stick 'em in a box, shuffle it about, and out pops a groundbreaking TC for Max Payne. That requires a lot of personal effort, and requires each team member to give up some of their personal time for the great cause. That's unlikely to happen without motivation: - sure the coder is doing groundbreaking stuff; but the mapper would rather create a level based on his own story and characters; the weapons modeller wants to create more exciting and challenging weapons like swords; rather than the endless rifles and sub-machineguns,... etc. In this instance 2+2 does not = 5. Modding work is a hobby, not paid employment, so why would anyone want to work on something that they're not interested in? It's not always the case, but more often than not, most people want to establish themselves as being able to produce something of their own creation, rather than just be a 'member of the team'. This leads to sort of freelance, merc style modders, who specialise in one specific talent, and offer it to those who need a specific task which they can't get done themselves (such as character modelling images/icons/wink.gif ). In the meantime, they work on their own personal projects, and get others to do the odd jobs that they're having difficulty with.

Well, there I go off on a tangent again. graemlins/doh.gif

It's quite interesting to see how work and management ethics apply to this, and I think they do to some extent. A lot of people have tried to apply the Games Developer/Manager approach to Max Payne modding, I've yet to see it really work effectively. The irony is that, in reality, we're just kids trying to extend the life of our latest toy until something newer comes along to replace it with. Sad, but true; in some senses.

Well anyway, I'm off to play "developer" again. images/icons/tongue.gif

[ 11-19-2002, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[biXen]

IMO it's easier to make a good-looking level than one that really has something new in gameplay. IMO we haven't really seen neither...

About the placement and innovation. I dunno, after being in a developer community for a few years I've started to get the hang of planning. And as I build my level, I had maybe 50% of it planned on beforehand. As I build stuff I immediately think of cool things to do around there, note them down, and later figure out what's worth it and so on. But I'm not looking forward to scripting it all, I like building the level the most images/icons/smile.gif And I really would HATE to release my level without the right characters, animations, weapons and so on, so I'm dependant on someone else anyway, cause there's no way in hell I can learn all that and still be able to design and do Flash... I just don't have the time...

Don't get me wrong though, it's nice to see you guys make new stuff, pull the last power out of the engine. But to tell you the truth, I have barely downloaded anything related to Max Payne in a year, with exception of Blade Runner demo's... I don't think I've missed MUCH. And it's mostly sad. Mods these days are mostly team vs. team with a different setting in multiplayer games. It's hard to recruit people to mods that take time, require dedication, for a single player game that most people have uninstalled. But my goal for now, is to have a reachable goal images/icons/smile.gif One or two playable levels, that look and play good. The one I'm working on is planned to be a bit scary/chilly and action filled. With a lot of cinematics, if I can do that I'm happy for now. If people like it I'll do more, but it'll be parts. The community is too slow to wait for a whole TC for Max Payne 1...

[Maddieman]

IMO it's easier to make a good-looking level than one that really has something new in gameplay. IMO we haven't really seen neither...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I personally don't think you have to have come up with new gameplay in a level, but there just needs a little more thought put into how the game plays. If a level looks gorgeous, but simply isn't fun to play, then people wont play it again. I'd say that modders haven't used MaxEd to its full potential; but then I'd also add that some are still trying. images/icons/smile.gif

As for level design, I think it depends on a few factors.

Building all of the level then figuring out where the action occurs is one method, perhaps a more true-to-life one. However, ten hours of mapping later; you really won't be looking forward to scripting when you realise that you can't have an enemy blowing up a wall, because you hadn't thought of it at the time. graemlins/doh.gif

Ideally, one would want to pre-plan their level on paper; so that you get an idea of both the geometry and the gameplay in its simplest form - and a form that can be edited. However, other than professional mappers and obsessive enthusiasts no one really bothers - you start with a box, and take it from there.

Although there are some people who like to keep an idea of the potential gunfights in their head, as they're building the room. These are good, but obviously aren't thought through fully, and might cause problems later.

I guess it depends on your interests. I personally found the tutorial about ai and enemies fascinating, yet I merely skimmed the boolean one. Different people like doing different things, and that is reflected in their work. The rather worrying 'team' word seems to have reared its ugly head again.

And I really would HATE to release my level without the right characters, animations, weapons and so on, so I'm dependant on someone else anyway <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Conversely, I'd hate to release my mod with custom levels - there is no way they could live up to the standard of the rest of the mod; and because of that, they would drag the rest of it down.

Don't get me wrong though, it's nice to see you guys make new stuff, pull the last power out of the engine. But to tell you the truth, I have barely downloaded anything related to Max Payne in a year, with exception of Blade Runner demo's... I don't think I've missed MUCH. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You haven't. With a few exceptions, the levels have been average; and there aren't that many (released images/icons/smile.gif ) mods that have actually tried to expand on Kung Fu 2 (other than change some of the animations). Those few that have, are either too small to be of any real worth (fps, max gore, katana, etc) or they are a small feature of a large tc, and get overshadowed by vast amounts of military issue rifles and half finished levels.

It only becomes worth noting when someone decides to take a gameplay idea and expand it into something much larger (while still making sure gameplay is the main focus). Froz has made loads of great little unique mods, but their individual impact is minimal compared to the potential impact of a larger scale project (such as kung fu 3). However, with that said; I defy anyone who states that a novel is better than a collection of short stories - just from comparing the size of individual projects.

Looking at it in that way, you realise that it's not even all that important to create an impact on the community - or even to produce an outstanding mod/level. While constantly thinking about how the user is going to respond to such and such feature, or whether or not the 'community' is going to accept your mod; you tend to forget why you started in the first place - for fun! images/icons/smile.gif

Who gives a rat's arse what anyone thinks? So what if you don't release anything? If you enjoyed making it, learning from it, and even playing it; then the mod is success - at least from your perspective images/icons/smile.gif ; if anyone else is disappointed, then that really is their own problem.

Right,...that is defiantly enough waffle for one night. graemlins/hhg.gif

[ 11-19-2002, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[mixuk]

No map can be perfectly planned ahead. Yes, a rough scetch is possible and basic geometry. The true inspiration comes when the geometry starts to be in place, then you start to get these wild ideas. Next follows a shitload of testing and tuning. Anything that isn't fun, will either be dumped or improved.

I myself don't like to ponder the levels too much beforehand. Basically everything will change anyway. You simply can't say really which is fun on paper and what is not. Therefore, rather work out the setting, the end and the geometry path (ie, the route the player is using). Then do the geometry, and the gameplay will follow almost automatically.

I remember this winning level from some contest in Max Payne mapping. There was some kind of space station and it had this very Unreal2 -feel to it. The geometry was pretty good, but, honestly, the gameplay sucked. Just to mention a few points:

There was a sniper at the end of a long hallway, which kept shooting you. You couldn't see it, but you got a lot of damage. Also other enemies would attack you while you progress the hallway. That sucks, never do enemies which makes damage and you really can't do anything about it.

Also later there was a bomb which you had to pick up, next to it was an ammobox or something. You got the ammo just by walking over it, but to get the bomb, you had to Use it. Now where's the logic in that? Of course the bomb seems like a similar object to the player, so naturally he'll try to take it as any ammo: by walking over it. In this level i didn't really realise it was a bomb until later when I wondered how to proceed. The bomb should've been picked up simply by going near it.

There is more, but these came to my mind first. They might seem small problems and nothing to complain about, but it's these small things that will bring the player back to reality. It breaks the immersion totally.

It seems, that along technical guides, we need some kind of gameplay-guides too. But as a quick remedy (duh) I suggest that you playtest the levels with other people. I'm sure flaws like this would easily be spotted.

There was also some unclever optimization in the level (long hallways = bad). Actually, I'm not sure everyone even understand how exits work. You have to know how they work so that you can optimize them as efficiently as possible.

Don't waste time/resources on new models and textures. Spend it on gameplay and testing, it'll be a more focused and smoother experience that way. Yes kungfu was cool, but it would be so much cooler with appropriate levels, since it brings all kind of new elements.

Agh, this got a bit long, and it's kind of off-topic too. Just trying to share my observations.

[StratonAce]

Preach on brothers, preach on!!!!!!!! graemlins/hhg.gif

[Maddieman]

Ok, that's fair point, and perhaps my assessment was set too high. However, it is still fair to say that there aren't enough decent single player maps available for Max Payne, in comparision to other modding communities.

In fact I agree with you, and I was going to expand on this. Unfortunately, I was in the middle of refining the last argument when the boards went off-line for maintennance (and thus I couldn't edit my post within the limit). graemlins/tinyted.gif

This is what I was moving towards, before I got cut off:

...and no-one else seems to be able to even come close to the standard of levels set by Remedy. In order to do so requires a mock production team; and without profesional management techniques in place, it is nearly impossibe to motivate your team to get something done. I'm being blunt here, but a lot (perhaps most; myself included) people follow through the maxED tutorials, make a basic level or two, come up with a brilliant idea for a tc and then go out looking for team memebers to do the "other stuff". If they are lucky, and the idea is strong enough, they might get a few people to help out - but it rarely ever amounts to any more than a couple of months work.

Discworld is yet another painful reminder, as was Matrixed Reality, and Dodge This; that the only sucessfully completed mods we really have are done by the solo, self motivated ones.

But don't take my word for it, I can't map to save my life. images/icons/grin.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In retrospect, yes, perhaps I am being a bit too harsh. However, I still believe there is an element of truth in it, whether we like it or not.

In comparision to other to other modding communities, do we have all that much to offer, or be proud of? For a single player game that has purposely designed to encourage the user to expand and create levels, there is a distinct lack of really good ones out there. While limited in some areas, the animation DO system has huge potential.

I'm not saying the communty is dead, far from it, there is plenty of talent here. But everyone seems to have run off and started their own projects (and hey, I'm no exception images/icons/wink.gif ), until what? Something better comes out? Ut2k3? Max Payne 2? A project dies? Or until the mod gets released, either finished or given up on.

Right now, all we seem to have to show is these little snowboarding mods. Perhaps we need something to kickstart it back into life; I don't know...

[biXen]

Yup, I'm agreeing with mixuk (for once eh? images/icons/wink.gif ).

Kung-fu done with a setting of some cool Bruce Lee inspired levels for instance, would kick ten times the ass of just kung-fu with Max Payne in the normal maps. I don't wanna play the normal maps, it doesn't matter if you crank up 10,000 weapons and gibbing. If I play the normal levels, I play the normal game. I guess we gameplayer's are getting spoiled but that's how it is...

About the mapping. Well, I usually think about what I want to expand, and I usually make things so I can expand them and change them. Based on previous experience images/icons/wink.gif Not having any real finished playable levels also means having experience... yeah, that sounds funny images/icons/tongue.gif But for instance, am I currently considering if the things holding up the Sarcophagus in my level should be breakable, at least some of them, or some part. If so I'll just subtract that part and readd it in parts, no problem at all. The problem is more that I have to test how it works, and that it doesn't look ass-stupid to the player. So I think I'll actually do better if I wait with it until more of the stuff is finished.

Another thing Marvel (Remedy mapper too) pointed out, is that it's not smart to make a map without enough references to how it looks. He said that while they made the levels for Max Payne he felt that they should sometimes have had 10 times the source material that they had, even if they had some 10,000 pictures. For my Chernobyl level I know I'm kind of stepping into the dark, because of the Iron Curtain there isn't a lot of before shots of the Reactors, but I managed to find a lot of images, and I truly think I'm onto something. Making it moody and cool, while good-looking is something completely different. And I hope I have some heavy christmas time to do it, since evenings are disturbed with other work and gameplaying images/icons/wink.gif

I also think I'll manage to go outside the mistakes mixuk mention in the gameplay, mostly anyway... anyway, my level will be tested before it's released to the public... by other's than me too obviously images/icons/smile.gif

And it's out graemlins/wid.gif

[Maddieman]

Kung-fu done with a setting of some cool Bruce Lee inspired levels for instance, would kick ten times the ass of just kung-fu with Max Payne in the normal maps. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed it would, but Ken is a programmer - not a mapper (well at least that's what it says on his webpage images/icons/tongue.gif ). If he spent time making maps too, either the mod would take ten times longer to come out (Max Payne 2 can't that be that far away now images/icons/smile.gif ) or areas would suffer in both the coding and the mapping - bringing the whole mod down.

The way he's left it seems quite logical in my opinion.

He's put heart and sole into it making it the best it can possibly be (in relation to what he is good at), and gave it to us with:

"Here's my gameplay mod, you can enjoy it with the existing levels; or if you want you can make your own levels to take advantage of the new features"

...not one mapper has even bothered to try.

Do you want a Bruce Lee, or to keep up with current events, a Jackie Chan level? You’re the expert mappers - Make it yourself.

As I said before, modding is for fun - do what you enjoy the most. If you enjoy mapping, great: - make some levels. If you enjoy animating and coding - make a kung fu mod. Don't waste your time on something you don't enjoy.

Either way, I think Straton is right - "More matter, with less art". Let's stop talking about what could have been - and get on with it.

[ 01-24-2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[StratonAce]

Maddie, if you want, after I get finished with this level I'm doing for the Lightsaber team, I'll make a small "fight arena" level for Katana. I owe you that. Let me know. images/icons/wink.gif

[Zer0]

I had that idea a few months back images/icons/smile.gif

I'm sure it would look a lot better done by you tho Straton. Maddieman isn't gonna turn that down.

[Maddieman]

Originally posted by StratonAce:
Maddie, if you want, after I get finished with this level I'm doing for the Lightsaber team, I'll make a small "fight arena" level for Katana. I owe you that. Let me know. images/icons/wink.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awesome, thanks. images/icons/grin.gif

But there's no real hurry, and I don't want you to be bogged down with more non Bladerunner crap. images/icons/wink.gif

Afterall, this is your week free, in which you were going to show us some new Bladerunner stuff. images/icons/tongue.gif

I'll explain in more detail with a PM - I don't want to take this thread too far off topic.

Thanks again. images/icons/smile.gif

[biXen]

There are things such as cooperation Maddie... you know, you'll get far better results if you have a dude working with you to make a level, than if you just say ... yeah, if you wanna make a level, make a level... Part of that is that the Kung fu mod is popular, so obviously you'd have to release the level with the mod...

[Maddieman]

True, but most modding team based efforts so far have failed (where the engine and level built together) - usually because a crucial aspect of the mod depends on another person - and if that person doesn't deliver then you've got problems. The point I was trying to make is that you don't have to release everything in one go. Both the gameplay mod and the level can hold their own, so to speak.

Right now I have a 'dude' working on a level for me. images/icons/smile.gif In this case it's just a one off level so Il probably will hold back until it's finished; but if were several high quality maps, and I had already finished the proper mod, delaying the release a futher 3 more months would not be a viable option. I'm more likely to release it, and say "here it is; have fun with the existing- I'll be relealing a new level specifically designed for it, each month". Because it undeniably works well with the existing levels; since, as you said, it adds to the game, rather than changing it.
Sure you can brag about how you only play the normal game with the normal levels, but you know as well as I do that, that isn't the case. The Kung fu mod doesn't stop you from doing that, all it does is gives you the option to say "wait a minute, wouldn't it be fun to try flykicking the enemy into oncomming train?" - and it works, but you don't have to do it (admittedly, you can argue about the shootdodges, if that's the case, I can gladly fix it for you images/icons/wink.gif ).

I'm not convinced that it fully works the other way around either, certain levels require specific animations or moves in order to work properly - otherwise they feel uncomplete. KF2 doesn't feel uncomplete, levels would be a bonus or an add-on.

Perhaps 6 months ago, things would be different; I might have had time to wait. But now there's an uncomfortable sense to hurry - the community is getting quieter and people are starting lose interest (a recent poll at mphq suggested that most are only hanging in there for kf3 - what a fantastic motivator for us that is images/icons/frown.gif ).

I doubt it will matter how good the mod is, either: kung fu, or bladerunner - it won't hold up against the sequel to Max Payne 2. We might enjoy it for less than a month (which is still more than most mods last) and then that's it. Again it depends on your motivation to make it.

It's a bit like the health bar which gradually gets nearer to death until you use a painkiller to prolong the moment - right now you could say we're in the wounded state...

....yeah...or something like that images/icons/wink.gif - I gotta go, so this hasn't exactly been proof-read. graemlins/doh.gif

[biXen]

Kung Fu was fun for about 30 minutes, then all the things that didn't work started to annoy me, and playing them in the same levels I just played the hell out of started to annoy me. But I guess that's just me graemlins/dopefish.gif

[Maddieman]

One other thing I forgot to add earlier, quite important actually.

you'll get far better results if you have a dude working with you to make a level, than if you just say ... yeah, if you wanna make a level, make a level... <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd love that, do you want to make some levels for me? No? What do you mean you're too busy with your own project? graemlins/tinyted.gif

There are only a select few who I actually consider as good enough, who could make maps that would do my mod any justice. Most of them are either using that talent for their own work or are not interested. As I said before, anything less would just bring the mod down as a whole.

I really would HATE to release my level without the right characters, animations, weapons and so on, <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure you're demanding a pretty high standard of quality in all of the above; and there is no way that you're going to include anything less. Yet, even if you do find someone, you're not going to be 100% happy with it, because you're leaving an aspect of your work in someone else’s hands - i.e. you'll have to settle with the best that you can get, but it'll never be exactly what you had in mind.

Ideally, if could do everything ourselves, the chances are we would. As bad as it sounds, we like control over something that is released under our name. This applies to both the creator of the mod, and the person who's doing the additional work. This fundimental conflict of interest can cause problems.

Someone said to me the other day:

think of two things here: what you want to get credit for, and what you want to actually get done.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is still nagging me in the back my head.

At the time, I was pretty confident that I could satisfy both on my own, because I ruled out the levels and skins from being essential to it. Don't get me wrong, lots of kind people have offered to help me out with k2; some I have accepted, and others I have not. But I've never actually found the need to ask anyone specifically for something like levels. As much as I hate to say it, I enjoyed this control over my work. Sometimes you lose perspective over what you are supposed to be doing for fun. images/icons/smile.gif

I would like levels in my mod, but it's not going to happen unless someone offers to make them (which they have - well, one at least images/icons/smile.gif ). If I want to ask someone, I have to get them interested in the mod; because without genuine interest (which is usually only apparent in the creator) then they either won't do it, or they won't put quite the same amount of effort as you would. To get enough people interested, I may as well release the damn thing.

However, the difference, as I tried to point out before, is that you don't really have much choice when it comes to including animations, etc. Unless you are willing to put up with the out of context Max Payne resources (and I get the impression that you are not), then you need to include those extra features. Whereas, I don't necessarily need the extra levels - there an expendable bonus.
images/icons/smile.gif

I guess all we really we want credit for is our ability to create balanced piece of work.

With all that said, this discussion has introduced to me the idea that levels could actually be plausible in my mod after all. When I've got a bit more to show (more animations for the weapons we've made) then I might put up a video, and ask if anyone is interested in making an additional level for it. But it's not essential; I wasn't originally planning to include levels, and Strat is doing one for me. I'll have to think about it more nearer the time . images/icons/smile.gif

God damn it, this was supposed to be a short additional comment to finish off my post above. graemlins/tinyted.gif

[Maddieman]

/Looks at the difference in posting times...
Bixen's comment was not there when I started my previous post. images/icons/shocked.gif graemlins/doh.gif

Kung Fu was fun for about 30 minutes, then all the things that didn't work started to annoy me, and playing them in the same levels I just played the hell out of started to annoy me. But I guess that's just me <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, three quick ( graemlins/tinyted.gif ) points then.

1)

Stuff that doesn't work, sure, but:

i) What were you expecting, tekken? Enjoy what you've got, not what you haven't.

ii) it's not finished yet, kung fu 3 will undoubtedly address many of the issues that 'didn't work' within reason. If anything, now's the time to get all your criticisms out in the open, I'm aware of your comment about melee impact detection and feel (which I can guarantee has been improved), but other than that, Ken can't read your mind.

2)

As for levels, yes that follows. You've had Max Payne since it was available; I only bought it 5 months ago.

As for kung fu lasting little more than 30 minutes; no, I'd disagree with that - the combat system was integrated into the game much better than you're giving it credit for.
However, since I'm more of a programmer at heart than a mapper; I've found that it has lasted much longer through having to constantly refer to the code, in order to learn how all the clever tricks like wall running were done. images/icons/smile.gif

3)
"But I guess that's just me" - Yes, you're a pessimist. images/icons/tongue.gif

[biXen]

I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist images/icons/smile.gif

Well I probably played the first kung-fu a bit longer than 30 minutes, but yes, what you mention is some of the things that just annoys me too much to enjoy it. And yes, I am picky. I've talked to Ken about KF3, and it looks promising. But it would kick much ass with a dojo level or something, but whatever, I do know your point. And I think Ken feels the same way as you about levels.

Hehe, and I guess you are right about me too. I won't settle for anything, so I'm thinking that I'll do my character skins by myself, and hopefully I can skip the models. Just gonna need some weapons, apart from the Mp5K's and the Knights SR-25 Widowmaker, which owns. Neverman made those, before he quit the dull slowmoving Max Payne modding scene images/icons/wink.gif Well you know, hehe...

I'm glad to see some people pushing borders in here though, but it's the big ego's that are doing something, and everyone is doing their own ideas. Imagine if we could all just join our projects, a sword swinging, chernobyl adventure with angry russian mob and a blade runner.... graemlins/love.gif

[StratonAce]

He he, Bixen. images/icons/smile.gif

[Maddieman]

I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist images/icons/smile.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seeing as over 90% of the things we worry about or stress over never happen; I see why most people would consider this negative thinking to be a 'realistic' view on life. images/icons/smile.gif

But that's another issue.

Yes, kung fu, katana, something wild, etc would be better with levels and whatever else is lacking - but we can't do everything by ourselves. We can get help, but as you said, our egos would never stand for it.

I say we get our projects for Max Payne completed to prove our worth, then seriously consider the prospects of a joint project for Max Payne 2.

[HairlessWookie]

Man I wish someone would be the project leader of my mod. I just want to sit around and build.

[Maddieman]

As far as I know, there isn't even any decent good single player -levels out there.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kendo has informed me that there is a decent single player level out there. It's called "The Lab", built by T Dogg.

You can download it here:

http://www.maxpayneheadquarters.com/dlfile.php?file_id=150

What's good about it, is the use of DOs, two endings (a sort of homage to the last level of Max Payne), and a high level of intereactivity. The gameplay and enemy/npc scripting is pretty good too.

It has it's flaws though; 1 exit means it peaked 40 fps on a level that should have been going at about twice that on my rig. The geometry isn't exactly astounding, and there are quite a few prefabs (which some people object to), but there are some nice new textures in places (photos etc) - which sort of reminded my of Duke 3D.

The other complaint was near the end, after you kill the Boris Dime enemy. The puzzle to continue is frustrating, and not particularly logical - mainly because it contradicts the very first puzzle.

Other than that, it's a pretty solid level and definately one of the best user made ones.

Man I wish someone would be the project leader of my mod. I just want to sit around and build. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mean lightsaber, I thought you had a project lead?

[ 11-22-2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[mafioso]

Hey maddieman I think what wookie meant was that he wished that someone would be project lead so that he could put 100% of effort into building instead of having the added worries of a project lead.

[StratonAce]

Hey Maddie, I told Wookie there to come over to these forums when he has problems or questions. I also told him, that you boy, you be a genius at the code! images/icons/grin.gif

[Maddieman]

Easy, easy...calm down everyone. images/icons/grin.gif

Yeah I think I got confused...it happens after you write stupidly long posts. images/icons/tongue.gif

Wookie, if you have any questions, feel free to post 'em here. images/icons/smile.gif

Actually I think this example proves a point I made earlier on; managing a team of people is a heck of a lot of extra unwanted pressure. That's why solo mods are easier - you only have to discipline yourself into working, not others as well.

Sorry, if this post sounds a bit confused, it's 3:20 AM, and I just got back from a fire alarm... graemlins/tinyted.gif images/icons/mad.gif graemlins/tinyted.gif graemlins/doh.gif

....details shall be posted in the post thread. graemlins/tinyted.gif

[ 11-22-2002, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[Maddieman]

(Latest version of DivX) (http://www.divx.com/divx)

Yeah, the community here and at other places is fading. The only one that is apparently still striving is MPHQ. There's a lot of talent there, but that place has such an unwelcoming atmosphere, that I rarely bother with them.

However, you get a lot of breathing space here, (with a few exceptions graemlins/tinyted.gif ) and the archive has some exceptionally useful threads. Hopefully, people will flood back when Max Payne 2 is released.

[HairlessWookie]

Thanks maddieman. I'm sure there are alot of questions you can answer. I'm really interested in the work you are doing on autoaim bones. I downloaded your sniper video, but i must need divx or something because it wont open.

Im glad you pointed me here Ace. This community is'nt as active as MPHQ, but the modders here seem to be much more serious and ask and answer more advanced questions.

You guys are right. I want someone else to take project lead of my mod. It's way too time consuming coordinating everything and taking up all departments of the mod. Im thankful for straton and zephyrin's mapping help.

[Maddieman]

UPDATE:

Playable Alpha (and lets face it, there won't be a final version graemlins/hhg.gif ) can be downloaded here (http://www.maxpayneheadquarters.com/dlfile.php?file_id=312).

Strange, but damn fun. images/icons/cool.gif

[Kev_Hectic]

Cool, I'll try downloading it in a while.

[Kev_Boy]

Doesn't download anything images/icons/confused.gif

It says it's some placeholder graemlins/tinyted.gif

[william ford]

Yes, snowboarding sounds cool etc, but heck. As far as I know, there isn't even any decent good single player -levels out there.

(I might be wrong, if you know any cool levels, please enlighten me and i'll take a look) <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No there arn't, i even asked a MPHQ and everyone said they suck.

[Maddieman]

Originally posted by Kev Boy:
Doesn't download anything images/icons/confused.gif

It says it's some placeholder graemlins/tinyted.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MPHQ are in the process of switching servers and they've ditched the total gamer network - so I guess the downloads have been taken temporarily off-line.

I'll upload it to Zer0mods later, for you.

i even asked a MPHQ and everyone said they suck. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They say every mod sucks - and they wouldn't recognise effort or hard work if it slapped them in the face with a wet trout. graemlins/dopefish.gif

The only problem, as I have stressed over, and over again in this thread; is that people regard the graphics and the geometry much higher over the gameplay and enemy placement/scripting. Sure there are some lookers out there, (*rrr *bbb's mod has already mentioned) but if they lack exit optimisation (i.e. forgot to take slow computers into account) and are generally dull to play, what's the point? I wouldn't class that as a good map.

A good map in my opinion, is one that is fun to play; and will genuinely make me return to it again. Most mods/maps I download and play once - then delete. People say that there is virtually no ai/character interaction in Max Payne - Not True: You just need to know how to do it. Sure, coding text for a small blue blob isn't exactly as exciting as animating a wall crashing down or whatever; but I honestly think some people shove down enemies without much thought or consideration to the actual game.

[ 12-18-2002, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[biXen]

Well, in a world where people actually buy and play games like Serious Sam, I'm not surprised that the youth who tries to make mods for the games are clueless about game mechanics. There IS talent in the MP scene, but there's absolutely no structure... too bad dictatorship is so unpopular.