Rant - single player vs multiplayer mods

[Alucard]

okay ive been surfing lots of moding sites over the period of a few hours and come to so fairly strong opinions,

first i dont understand all this ut2003 modding junk, i mean sure its a nice engine and what not but iam sic and tired of seeing so many mods that just take the same mulitplayer gameplay slap a new skin and weapon and call themselves a Total conversion. iam not saying its bad or anying, but its just the same.

any how to my point if i have one, max payne and the reason i chose it for my humble attempt at a mod is because the it had game play masterfuly intertwined with a story, not that a story is everthing in a game, but it sure does help. and realism that the max-fx engine i capable of is nice as well.


okay so my point yes it does take lots of time dedication and know howto make a mod that is not just another throwaway gun mod or skin change. but imo its even harder to make a single player mod versus a muliplayer. it takes more thinking ahead to the players experiance and reaction to the story being told
imean i already played unreal 2003 when it was called Unreal Tournament. its the same game play with new graphics, would you like to see maxpayne the same game and story with all new game engine, NO i wouldnt, i would like to see a new story a diffrent game play even if it looked the same up to a point, lets not forget tomb raider 1,2,3,4,5,6..... they took this to the extreme, but i did like the first tomb raider, it was like nothing i everplayed before. the same with MP, like nothing before for me personaly off course.

any ways it really hard to stay motivated makeing a mod for a game that not a lot of people are intrested in any more, althought other peoples pleasure is the last thing iam thinking about when digging throught remedys scripts, i do it because i want to learn how it was done and start my own projects. but it would be nice to get a little recognition. for the work even though its not the primary reason i mod. i like makeing entertainment for my self and for others about things that intrest me.

selfish perhaps true absolutely

any ways i reall like stratonace's bladerunner mod its a really great mod for a maxpayne mod imo opinion the best one.

I am curious to know what keeps you active modders intrested and deticated to your mods with out the all mighty Monetary Compensation
driving you?
I would really like to know

[Maddieman]

Your signature says it all.

I think I've said this several times, but Bladerunner is the only max payne mod that I actually consider a total conversion - well almost: with the exception of Ken Yeung's kung fu mod, the gameplay remains almost unchanged (perhaps that's not a bad thing in this case).

I have to laugh when I dip over to MPHQ every now and then, and see all these total conversion teams acting so professionally. A couple of half baked skins, 40 uniquely identical weapons, kung fu, and a few levels if they can find a mapper - well it's the thought that counts, right? images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Personally, I'm not all that interested in multiplayer maps - they're designed for simplicity and speed. There is very little detail or character interaction; it's purely a playground which allows the gameplay to take over the rest. It's also designed so that every single player has exactly the same experience at the same time - making shootdodges impossible.

Whereas in a single player game, if the player performs a special move, I can hit the good 'old slow motion button, put a fancy camerapath on it, and then perhaps add a sound effect or a piece of music in there too. The point is, I can stop the game momentarily to emphasise a moment in time - something that has not really been possible before. If done correctly (and sparingly), it can enrich the gameplay and the immersion; whereas in a multiplayer, it would only impede the progress of the game.

But to your main point, motivation: I've mentioned this in the snowboard thread, which unpredictably, expanded into a moral discussion on modding ethics. I would be lying if I said I did it purely for self interest. I must admit that I do get a positive kick out of people’s reactions when I post a new screenshot or video. It's a natural human desire gain approval from others.

While this sounds like a somewhat greedy statement, encouragement is one of the most useful assets for an amateur modder. Face it we're not going to get paid for this, and most of use aren't going to feature on television, or win a Remedy T-shirt ( graemlins/tinyted.gif ). That's why I like this community so much: the people here all know how to encourage a person and still provide constructive criticism. Posting a thread titled "My first ever mod" over at MPHQ is suicide because unless the mod is of direct interest to them, then most of them will bite your head off. While I do take the user into account when designing a mod, the bottom line is that it's still built for me, not them. Of course, I'd be selfish just to keep it to myself; but I've decided to take the DNF approach and only release it when I think it's as good as I can possibly make it.

The more important reason for modding, (other than enjoying the creative/artistic element) is the new skills I'm learning. While working with the Remedy Script isn't a patch on real game programming, I'm still learning how the engine works on a higher level. Other than that, everything else can be modified at exactly the same level as Remedy - i.e. by using the same tools as them. I've started to learn how to make levels with MaxEd, create/modify texture maps with Photoshop, create and animate low poly skins & weapons with 3ds max, plus all the design and management skills required to successfully pull a project of this size off, and so on. Those kind of skills are invaluable, especially when they're self taught. While they're not officially credited, they're still something worth putting on the CV, and act as a particularly good demonstration of self motivation.

On the surface though, I enjoy creating this stuff; and I think what I've got so far is an exceptionally fun addition to the game. Hopefully, when I release it you will think so too. images/icons/smile.gif

My advice to anyone starting out is to learn a bit of MaxEd - go through all of the tutorials; then try your hand at absolutely everything. When you find something that you're naturally good at, work on it. images/icons/smile.gif

[Alucard]

thanks for the reply maddie, you make some great points.

as for the newbies as there so called, they sould try alittle harder to do things for themselves other then trying to get a "team" together. one thing that helped me was forum digging.

and the mphq forums are filled with 90% trash talking unappreciative children, and the other 10% respectful genuinely knowledgeable moders. which is the only people that i would release my mod to if they wanted it. not that it something special to behold but its my hard work and i should give to whom i decide. the ones that could see it for what it is.

[william ford]

Never look in the MPHQ site for TC, cause there arn't any yet. Most of the stuff there is from complete retards that have no idea what a TC is. There are a couple being made though, that starwars one that whathisnames makin and the snowboard one. Heaps more that'll probably never get finished cause everybody's too lazy. But an actual TC would be really hard to make any way, basically u delete everything except the engine and make a new game. All the sounds and everything would have to be made by the modder(s).

[Alucard]

yes makeing a tc is like making a new game but it can be done with some effort and know how. i dont know if there lazy put its does take a lot of knowledge of 3d creation, and the max-fx tool set in this case. as well as sound editing, and more. but not many people are actually making much of anything

i am new to this community and would like to know from the people that where here form the beginning what mods sprang up in the beginning that showed progress then died ?

[Maddieman]

The only tc projects I can think of (off the top of my head) from mphq would be lightsaber, the operative (Kendo's mgs tc which I've helped on), and Steve Royer's batman mod. Froz, Leikkurri, whatever you want to call him has been one of, if not the most innovative modder in the community - I don't think anyone else can match the amount of unique mods release under his name. Evil Monkey seems to have cracked under the pressure (take a look at the website), and I highly doubt we'll see another chapter of the True Matrix mod.

Admittedly, I've only been here for about 5-6 months; which can hardly be described as from the beginning. If you take a look at the archives from about late 2001- early 2002, there seems to be a period, (here at least) where everyone was on the top of their game. Most of the obvious, and not so obvious mod questions had been tried and solved (e.g. most of the 3ds max queries) and it was also the time when Ken Yeung's kung fu video/mod came out of nowhere and pretty much set the standard for the things to come. Most of those people have been and gone though, and I believe only BiXen and StratonAce are the only ones who still remain (although a few people like mph and Ken Yeung are in the background, and post on rare occasion).

One of the more interesting tales I heard was from Kendo (future res, mgs - neither released yet), who was telling me how, during the 2001-2002 a Matrix tc called 'Dodge This' was set up (I read about it from a magazine at first). According to him, pretty much the entire community (over at mphq at least) was involved in that project and I think its death (about a month or so before I showed up) delivered quite a crippling blow on the community.

Now all that's left is modders who are finishing their own private mods, tcs who refuse to admit that they're dead, and newbie’s who keep showing up full of ideas but no real talent. It seems that a lot of people are just waiting on Kenneth Yeung to pull a rabbit out of a hat and release kung fu 3 - talk about pressure. It's a shame though, because most people now, aren't interested any of the new material (and there's plenty of it), neither have many even tried to expand his previous release, which I find personally disappointing.

It looks like we have the best part of a year to wait for Max Payne 2, so hopefully the wiser people will hold out until the end - they'll be rewarded of course by some of the best mods this community has produced (some with upwards of 12 months of work put into them). But I must admit that it's a bit of a gloomy outlook with all the major Max Payne communities slowly fading away, the distinct lack of media attention, coupled with the fact that the average user has probably removed Max Payne from their hard drive by now.

Still, there's a whole year to go - take your time....I am. graemlins/hhg.gif

This was supposed to be a short post... graemlins/tinyted.gif

[ 12-19-2002, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[biXen]

Well, I mostly agree with Maddie. I think the biggest error of the modscene is their goals. I've done that fault myself. When I started out here I had a small little dedicated team, but I wasn't able to use enough of my own time for the mod, and when the leader fails, it's hard for the others to hang on. So I figured out early I gotta do this alone, still, most of the early stuff was just racked up as experience. I've made one level, which I think nobody has seen, and it's good looking... but it's not a playable level. Working on my first playable now, and that's gotta be a lot more work images/icons/smile.gif So my realistic goal is one playable preferably two, really well made, both gameplay, cinematics, content, with the cutscene level, then I'll go from there. If ppl notice I'd maybe make more. But right now, this community sadly isn't worth the time it takes to make a TC.

I do this because I love mapping, but I'm also talented in design and Flash stuff + I'm a halfassed writer and webmaster images/icons/smile.gif So time is limited. Doing it because I love it is something, but as Maddie mentioned, I also do it because I want to be recognized for what I do. Sometimes that means more to me than money, well almost always. It's really stupid to promise anything though, but I do promise a playable level at least before Max 2 is out, and I am gonna make sure it's the best experience you've had with this engine apart from the game itself... damn, am promising a lot now... well, it'll be fun, I'll make sure. Am redesigning my personal site now, then it's all PR and mod time, screw christmas, I gotta get something done images/icons/smile.gif

As also said earlier, if you don't map yourself, there's NO use in starting a TC. In fact it's not much use to do anything except maybe join someone who does map... But this community is harsh, surely is... too many boring mods and too little actual new gameplay... maybe it'll change...

[Co&Co]

too many boring mods and too little actual new gameplay... maybe it'll change... <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It will change, watch my words....... images/icons/wink.gif

[Daedalus]

To make a true TC you need the following imo:

- all original weapons replaced by new ones with new sounds and particle effects

- most of the character models replaced by new ones including new voice acting and new skins

- a bunch of new singleplayer maps, one part with 9 chapters at least, all representing a unique story!!

- a whole pack of new music and ambient sounds

- new scripts which perform new player functions, e.g. kung-fu mode. This could also be night-vision, climbing ladders and stuff like that.

- new menu with new font and clicking sounds which fit to the theme of the TC (if you have a sci-fi TC then a sci-fi font works best)

Basicly a true TC is when you don't have the feeling playing Max Payne anymore. In the moment when you run the TC mod it has to throw the player in a totally different environment and atmosphere. THEN, and only THEN, it is a true TC imo.

[SamiV]

A good and well deserved rant. Just wanted to drop a few lines as I'm not posting that often these days anymore.

Modding Max Payne (or pretty much any other game) is an art form in itself. You've been given a set of tools and minimalistic documentation. Go wild! :)

Something that sounds relatively simple (kung-fu, anyone) might be very hard to implement as something that actually works as a gameplay element (kung-fu again :)

Personally I'm very happy to see people digging into our "shipped game as it was" and figuring things out. Max Payne most certainly isn't a flexible programming environment nor is it a trouble-free art path. Most games never are. Most developers provide modding capabilities as a courtesy for people to look how games are actually done. Don't restrict yourselves "I wanna mod game X". Just have a look at stuff you can do for games like The Sims etc. It's the same sandbox, just different tools and methods. It's the sandbox that matters, not which game or modeling package you used.

A lot of the TC mods sounded down right crazy since day one (multiplayer, anyone?). Just start out with something simple as a proof of concept and continue as you have time and talented people. Even for Max Payne, there's still tons of different gameplay mechanics you could play around just by fiddling with the cameras and perspective changes...

Anyway - keep up the good work everyone. :)

SamiV.

[Alucard]

thanks for the reply everyone, it has been interesting to hear other modders and developers opinions of what makes a good TC
i will continue work on my mod and make my contribution to the max payne community, and hopefully make something interesting and fun