Lightsaber 4

[Maddieman]

It's finally up for download, albeit about a week late. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

It's a 52MB download, but hopefully it'll be worth it. I'll let you know what I think in 5-6 hours (damn my 56k graemlins/tinyted.gif ).

DOWNLOAD (http://www.maxpayneheadquarters.com/dlfile.php?file_id=312)

[Fraeon Waser Duhni]

It's quite rushed, apart from Stratonace's map, it all has the feeling of the next .regeneration...

[Co&Co]

I'm downloading it right now, i'm curious.

[Maddieman]

Damn filefront to hell - I can't get it to work. graemlins/tinyted.gif

It keeps dropping the conenction and then restarting - even with a d/l accellerator. graemlins/tinyted.gif

I'll just have to wait until I get back to my university broadband connection. images/icons/frown.gif

Levels aside, what is the gameplay like? How well are the lightsabers handled?

[Kev_Boy]

I love Filefront, no waiting in line and nothing you need to download (or pay for graemlins/tinyted.gif ).

Sure, it's full sometimes but that's not very often images/icons/smile.gif

For the downloading, I could've but i'm not 'into' lightsaber kinda stuff and I already have JK2, and that has like the BEST lightsaber action ever images/icons/tongue.gif

[StratonAce]

Just as a side-note, Wookie let the beta get out with a show-stopper of a bug. A missing jump_point. BUT, this can be resolved by simply playing in Developer Mode.

[Maddieman]

As for Lightsaber... The lightsaber fighting itself was okay, but it's basically hard to see if you hit your enemy or not. Okay, let me rephrase, it's ok, but could've been quite a load better. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmm..I thought as much - the max fx engine is quite limited when it comes to melee combat: - something I'm trying to improve. I'm just curious to compare lightsaber to my own sword based mod. Are there any new lightsaber animations, or is it still using the baseball bat attack? I hear you can block blaster shots, but can you parry lightsaber attacks? Either way, it'll be interesting to see what Straton did with his level. Making a level interesting with just one enemy is definitely a challenge.

The question really is, did they do the right thing, by sticking to their release date (well, near enough) thereby rushing the mod - or should they have stuck to graemlins/wid.gif and risked not releasing anything at all?

As for filefront, well, normally it's no bother; but the way it works really seems to muck up download resuming. On my dial-up, I expect a disconnection every two hours; it's a 3-4 hour download, so I'm kind of screwed until I return to my broadband connection. As for their p2p service - no thanks; I don't need any more spyware on my machine. Maybe I'll make an exception, but I'd rather have a second opinion on it first.

but i'm not 'into' lightsaber kinda stuff and I already have JK2 <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmm...personally I disagree - it's a new mod, and they've put a good three or four months into it at least. Not to mention that StratonAce has done a level for them - that would be worth downloading on its own. Since it's a free add on to game, I'll take it.

As for JK2, I don't think it lived up to its hype. They broke my rule of mixing genres, and I think it suffered because of it. IMO the MaxFx engine would have been far more suited to the game than the quake 3 engine - the lightsaber action was disappointing, but adequate for a professional game; the levels were dull; and the game was really dying for Max's bullet time and Kenneth's wall running - which were implemented much better in Max Payne.

Furthermore, I already have Tekken, Tenchu, and Enter the Matrix is coming out in May - why should I bother with any Max Payne mods like kung fu, katana, or the matrix?

However, it's strange how people make mods based around games they don't/can't have - Wookie didn't have jk2; tenchu 3 and the matrix are coming out this year; I can't see a Bladerunner game in the works; and kung fu by all rights should have been impossible. People have expectations of games, and if they aren't satisfied, then they'll make their own.

Strange, but it seems to be true. graemlins/hhg.gif

[StratonAce]

Also, remember, the Lightsaber mod is NOT finished. Wookie and crew still have more to come, this is not the final mod, is is simply an early "beta" release for something new for people to play.

But, my part is done. On to work a bit for Maddie, then back to Evolution for me. images/icons/wink.gif

Speaking of which, Maddie, did you get my last e-mails to you a few days ago???

[Maddieman]

The last email I got from you was the one to let me know that you had recieved my previous mail. I didn't see the need to reply because you said you were going to follow it up the next day.

When you didn't, I thought it was best not put any pressure on you, in case you were doing something last minute for the ls4 team (plus you said you had been nailed by the flu).

If you've sent me anything else, I haven't recieved it yet.

...I've got to stop thinking seven moves ahead of everyone else. graemlins/doh.gif images/icons/blush.gif

[Bruce Hamilton]

Originally posted by Maddieman:
As for their p2p service - no thanks; I don't need any more spyware on my machine. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They might be fixing it, but I found you could hit the p2p link and cancel the prompt to install the client, and still download the file.

[HairlessWookie]

yeah this release is just a demo. It has alot of bugs too, like the 2 droids yelling during their firedeath animations. I fixed the levels.txt and am uploading the file now Ace.
I must say you did a kick ass job on your level and on malice.
I will try to tone down the lightsaber FX some in the next release, or at least for character hits,
I'm so used to it by now it doesnt bother me.

the main reason I wanted to rush this demo out so soon was to try and recruit more modders like Ace and Zephyrin and maddieman. Then to crank out a whole storyboard of good shit, and kick back and play it for a while.

[Fraeon Waser Duhni]

Filefront sucks. Especially with programs like DL accelerator, getright and so on, you're sure to get a corrupted download.

As for Lightsaber... The lightsaber fighting itself was okay, but it's basically hard to see if you hit your enemy or not. Okay, let me rephrase, it's ok, but could've been quite a load better.

[Maddieman]

Lol, maybe it's my modem connection, but I can't seem to be able to get to mphq - Wookie, I think your mod has killed their site. graemlins/hhg.gif

I guess they really were desperate for something new to play. images/icons/grin.gif

[Co&Co]

I finally downloaded the lightsaber mod and played it. Very nice level! great job! The new effects are also very cool.

ok....there are a few bugs as mentioned before, but that doesn't take away the fun. And it's just a beta...so....

My complements!!

keep up the good work

[RealNitro]

The one big problem with the mod is that my AMD 1000 Mhz with a TNT2 had some severe problems with the deathanims. Another thing is that the lightsabers have troubles to hit someone that is crouched. And (maybe also due to my computer) the end-battle was really slow, there are some great moves in it, but the opponent uses them at the wrong times, maybe he should be able to recognise an attack, so he can block it with another one?

Don't think I didn't enjoy it. This mod is really good, but those things have to be said, so they can be fixed. If this was beta, the full version will beat JK2 for sure images/icons/grin.gif !

[Co&Co]

I didn't have any problems running the mod, it played very smooth with al settings on high. (1.7 ghz, geforce3).

One other thing. The whole level was splitted in 4 parts, which in my opinion isn't necessary. I mean I think you could easily split it in 2 parts or maybe even just 1! especially the story telling parts, why did you make it as a level alone instead of putting it in the playable level itself?

Also....the story was sometimes a bit hard to read beacause it didn't fit the screen very well.

These are just some small bugs in my opinion, but now you know images/icons/wink.gif

excellent level further!

[Maddieman]

that the lightsabers have troubles to hit someone that is crouched<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell me about it graemlins/tinyted.gif images/icons/mad.gif

The collision detection for crouching or 2 handed weapon enemies is iffy to say the least. Something Remedy should look into; I know melee combat isn't the priority, but it's still something to consider.

Still haven't been able to download this mod yet, btw.

[ 01-04-2003, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[RealNitro]

BTW, the sniper rifle causes my screen to go white for a half a minute! images/icons/frown.gif Isn't it possible to reduce the particles, sometimes they're a bit over the top (for my system)?

[Maddieman]

That's the problem I found (in general) - particles, as cool as they are, really eat up your resourses. I guess if you're using certain effects frequently you should make sure that the particle count is less than 35.

Some people got a bit uptight with the blood particles in katana (granted, they were crap). In the end I released another version with a reduced particle count - I don't think it made much of a difference though. I'm going to have to spend more time figuring out how to optimise it properly.

Either way, do I sense an upcomming release of litesaber? graemlins/dopefish.gif

[RealNitro]

Originally posted by HairlessWookie:
In the future I plan on having multipe bones in the lightsaber's blade, and if everything goes right, the blade itself will be able to chop enemies and block projectiles with the help of a new skeleton and collision. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">images/icons/shocked.gif images/icons/shocked.gif images/icons/shocked.gif Hehehe, me like that...
There are some bugs in the AI scripting too, do you want me to post them?

[Co&Co]

Sure, just post them. Everybody can learn from this...right.

[HairlessWookie]

Sure I would appreciate you posting them. I have to admit though, The first 2 maps were my first 2 attempts at AI and dynamic objects.

[HairlessWookie]

Does anybody use 3dsmax4 for animation often? Maddieman, maybe you can help me solve this problem. I am animating some new saber moves for dual sabers. I have the animation pretty much where i want it, but it could be slowed down and tweaked a bit. Now, whenever I move, and sometimes when i delete keyframes, the keyframes remain there and screw my animation all to hell. I've tried deleting these "ghost" frames, And I've tried saving my work and re-opening, but nothing seems to work. I've started over about 20 times now. Also, do you know how to copy/paste keyframes? I think I have found the place to do that at but when i press paste,
nothing happens.
Thanx

[Maddieman]

3ds max is a pain to set up properly. graemlins/tinyted.gif

There are two solutions to your problem, both have drawbacks, unless you’re an elite animator like Skaven. images/icons/tongue.gif

Solution 1, is to change the duration of the loop using the track viewer - it's hard to describe; just follow the link labelled "Found it" for detailed information.

http://forums.3drealms.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=001679

The quicker and easier way is to select each bone in turn, and change the controller from TCB to linear (motions tab, click on position, then assign controller - do it for rotation and scale too). This reduces the amount animation helpers, and prevents the wealth of bugs that you’re facing. However, the drawback is that your animation looses the 'spring' or smoothness that the tcb controller gives to it. It's much harder to make your animation look natural; but in general, it's easier to use. Furthermore, you can copy/paste frames, and lock movement positions without undesired movements occurring.

EDIT: To copy and paste, select the keyframe(s) on the frames bar at the bottom. Holding SHIFT drag the new frames into a different position on the bar.

I think an update of my animation tutorial is due.

[ 01-04-2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[HairlessWookie]

Hey Maddie did u get it yet?
If u still cant get it from there i have another place I will email to you if u want. This one isn't bogged down so much. It's the MPHQ modupload FTP, so if u already know how to get in there then cool, but if not email me and I'll email u back.

Yes, the particle count in the mod is way too high for some machines, especially when the FX are up close. The sniper rifle FX made it into the demo by accident. I made those particles for another mod and was testing them and never took them out.....although the sniper FX had a huge particle count, they also looked like crap because of the velocity of the projectile.
As for the collision detection of a crouched enemy,...yes it's quite a bit whack but can work if you aim just right. Like the baseballbat and the leadpipe, the lightsabers projectile is emmited from the character's neck.
So the player would have to be aimed low enough to hit a crouched enemy. I think it may work differently on slower/faster machines too, as the framerate changes for the animations. Aiming low and slightly to the left works on my machine.
In the future I plan on having multipe bones in the lightsaber's blade, and if everything goes right, the blade itself will be able to chop enemies and block projectiles with the help of a new skeleton and collision.

[RealNitro]

Ok, here they are:
</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They enemy in front of the second elevator, that takes you to the guy with the lightsaber, is turned with his face to the wall. When I had defeated the other guys, he was still standing there. He couldn't see me, so he was still idle. (I blew his head off with the force images/icons/grin.gif )</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I entered the room with that lightsaber guy, he didn't react either, even if I started dancing before him, or cut him with my lightsaber... I also saw that the door didn't close. Really weird, I know, maybe I missed a trigger?</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The last one is probably due to the beta. I was able to enter a room that I probably should not enter. It contained a (half) door, that hoovered in the middle of the room. Probably just because there wasn't enough time to remove it?</font><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Btw, how do you edit your posts, I can't find out how???

[Maddieman]

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubb/JCImages/3dr_editpost.gif

On your right.

You have a maximum of 30 minutes after posting to edit it. If you edit your post within 2 minutes of posting, you wont get the: 'this post was edited' message.

[HairlessWookie]

Thanx maddieman I'll give that a try.

[HairlessWookie]

Well Maddieman, I didn't find the linear thing you were talking about, but I was messing around in the assign controller thing, I clicked on transform script and hit OK then went back to position/rotation/scale and hit OK, then when i got back to the place where the assign controller button was, for my position and scale was something called Bezier and still TCB for rotation. I did that for all of the joints that i was animating and it solved the problem of the ghost frames. I owe you big time man, Thanx. Now I can finally animate without the strange skin deforming bugs of milkshape.

[HairlessWookie]

Thanx Jens, I will have a look into those. I noticed as well that the imperial at the second elevator was facing the wall......But sometimes he would come around the corner. I must have faced him the wrong way. I do apologize for that hanging door. I meant to nuke it but i must have forgotten in my rush to complete. That was pretty sloppy on my part....Along with the rest of my sloppyness. Hopefully I can find some more skilled modders to help with lightsaber, as I fill every department myself. I think now it's down to myself and zephyrin for teammates. We might have an animator too, we will see if he sticks around this time.

[Maddieman]

I FINALLY got it. images/icons/grin.gif


It's a pretty damn good mod - in fact, I would say it ranks up there with the best of them (and lets face, there aren't many of them). It ran almost without a hitch on my system - the particle fx didn't lag my machine, and the levels seemed to be quite well optimised (even Straton's ran quickly which makes a change images/icons/tongue.gif ). However, to my surprise, it did crash to the desktop twice; for reasons which I am unsure of - it might have been a coding bug, or it could have been a technical problem, I don't know.

Jen's (I think) was right about the crouching hit detection - not that it's your fault as such, but I had difficulty hitting the last enemy on the first level (on the lift) - to the extent where I couldn't kill him in time before the level ended.

Speaking of which though, those were some of the best levels I've seen in Max Payne for a long time. Maybe it was because it's a completely different theme and texture set (i.e. nothing to compare to) but I was pretty impressed, and you seem to have grasped the whole enemy placement thing well. My only complaint as far as gameplay was concerned was the distinct lack of painkillers (or whatever you have changed them to) - I got up to malice on my last legs: a fart could (and come to think of it, did) kill me. Other than that, and a few small bugs it was pretty solid.

Gameplay wise; I'll be frank and say you need to work on the lightsabre combat at bit more - but you probably knew that. The one thing I didn't like was the way the character got locked into position during certain (perhaps overly long) moves. As you mentioned, due to Milkshape some of the keyframes got deformed - you can fix that by making every frame a keyframe at the expense of smoothness. Speaking of which, I've just made a new template .max file to replace the run.max which I'll put up for download later.

What's left..? Oh yeah. Straton's map rocked - it blew me away...um.. literally. images/icons/tongue.gif I particularly liked the intro, and the way he got the character to look about everywhere.

Best of luck with the rest of the mod. I might be able to lend you a hand later, but right now I'm bogged down with getting katana up to a decent state where I can comfortably show it to StratonAce. images/icons/blush.gif

Nice one.

[ 01-07-2003, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[HairlessWookie]

Thankyou for your kind words maddieman. I agree the saber fighting sucks. Maybe after I get your updated run.max I can start cranking some nice stuff out. Im going to start laying out the different possibilities for fighting with zephyrin, He is knowledgeable about fencing and martial arts. I'm not sure if we can make individual attacks for running in different directions,...if anyone knew how to do that it would be you Maddieman. Also we would not be able to do running spin attacks because the pelvis is a lower body bone and running has priority over attacks.......maybe with a new skeleton with another pivot higher up than the pelvis can we achieve this.....but we'd have to do all new animations with a new skeleton. Or possibly import the animations into milkshape and add another pivot as explained and re-export. Will have to experiment.