An Idea for Payne 2: Non-Linear plot

[Guest]

Hi everyone,
don't get me wrong here, Max Payne was a kick arse game! However, for me, it's replayability was limited for these reasons:

1) Linear plot- very little decision making for the player, just repetative running and gunning.

2) No character interaction. I hope in Payne2 we can talk to characters and select which dialogue we choose to talk to them in. Like in Deus Ex, have a conversation that is in the players control that can influence the outcome of a situation. Whether talking disrepectfully will result in bloodshed or the respect of the person. Your thought?

[Guest]

The linear style was decided by the development team. Max Payne is meant to be a very cinematic game, it's meant to be linear. Besides, that makes the game longer doesn't it. No optional parts.

[Cathome]

Originally posted by Cast No Shadow:

2) No character interaction. I hope in Payne2 we can talk to characters and select which dialogue we choose to talk to them in. Like in Deus Ex, have a conversation that is in the players control that can influence the outcome of a situation. Whether talking disrepectfully will result in bloodshed or the respect of the person. Your thought?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not bad idea, but it'll work only with non-important characters. Also dialogs may do the game boring.

[Mongorian]

personally, im not all that interested in character interaction. rather, id like to see more environment interaction and more path decisions, as in more than one way to do something. this would take away from the linearity as well as adding some replay value. imagine it.
there's a room full of badguys in a building on an average block. do you A) burst into the room guns blazing, busting out cool moves and ultimately kicking some major ass.
B) go to a neighboring house, break in, tiptoe past a sleeping dog, go up into the attic of the house, and point your sniper rifle through a window at the room of thugs accross the street. slowly you wait till one moves within your view and BAM! you take them out. you then proceed to kill the rest of them as they are baffled as to where the gunfire is coming from.
C)you shimmy up the side of the building, climbing first onto a dumpster and second onto a railing, then onto a drainpipe. you climb in through a window of the building a floor above the thugs. you then take out a grenade and toss it down the stairs of the building into the room of thugs and BLAMMO, no more badguys.

this is a poor example, but this kind of decision process would be great. and then, if the game featured a realistic physics engine, think of the other possibilities this could add? i think it would allow the developers to make everything just THAT much more destructable.

[biXen]

Originally posted by Mongorian:
[QB]
C)you shimmy up the side of the building, climbing first onto a dumpster and second onto a railing, then onto a drainpipe. you climb in through a window of the building a floor above the thugs. you then take out a grenade and toss it down the stairs of the building into the room of thugs and BLAMMO, no more badguys.
QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me quote Skaven: "With all the gunfights going on Max won't have time to play monkey".

Max Payne isn't an assassin. He'll just kill you if you are in the way or he dislikes you bad. I don't think he's gonna do some insane plans to kill people. Linear is also the only way to go IMO.

[Maddieman]

The good thing is, while Max Payne is primarily a shoot-em up; there are plenty of competent modders out there who have already got the stealth stuff working. Froz for example has successfully implemented wall hugging, and stealth kills in his mod based around the Hitman games. images/icons/smile.gif

[neeek]

i like the idea of a non linear storyline. i understand a linear plot is needed to make a game such as a work in progress mp2 cos it feels cinematic or so forth, but sumtimes you wanna branch out and let loose and do what you wanna. it would be good to have another mode of gameplay where you could choose to play the storyline of mp2 or you can play a different storyline with a different character with different perspective. so that 2 stories with 2 strong main characters make one awesum game.

[Mongorian]

Originally posted by biXen:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mongorian:
[QB]
C)you shimmy up the side of the building, climbing first onto a dumpster and second onto a railing, then onto a drainpipe. you climb in through a window of the building a floor above the thugs. you then take out a grenade and toss it down the stairs of the building into the room of thugs and BLAMMO, no more badguys.
QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me quote Skaven: "With all the gunfights going on Max won't have time to play monkey".

Max Payne isn't an assassin. He'll just kill you if you are in the way or he dislikes you bad. I don't think he's gonna do some insane plans to kill people. Linear is also the only way to go IMO. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how you got assassin out of throwing a grenade at your enemies is beyond me. besides, in max payne one there are a number of times he does "some insane plans". what about the part where he jumps on top of a moving train? or slams a train through a wall? or in the third chapter where he sneaks into cold steel, climbs a ladder, and jumps from rooftop to rooftop? there are several scenes where he does things that are "insane". and i said it was a poor example, anyways.
all im asking for is some variation. i dont want one set path. i think thats part of what hurt max payne 1.
max payne 2 will do fine if it turns out linear. ill still buy it. i know making an action game have more than one path is difficult but i think they could find a happy balance between linearity and non-linearity.
just my 2 cents.

[ 11-02-2002, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Mongorian ]

[mph]

I think by "insane" biXen just meant overly elaborate plans - Max Payne is more about bursting through doors than being discrete by prancing about on drainpipes - you've got bullet time, so why be subtle?

I finished playing NOLF2 the other day, and I liked the way the levels branched here and there, giving the impression of things being a bit more in your control. I'm not sure if non-linear levels would suit Max Payne's gameplay though; best to not over-complicate things if you ask me. I'm more interested in seeing Remedy do something new with bullet time... something that'll hopefully be far more interesting than non-linear levels.

[biXen]

Yep, mph is right.

There's a difference between bursting down the door and shooting someone who's trying to take you down, and planning to kill someone who you can just pass and leave alone. Max Payne isn't THAT psycho, or hasn't been so far. If you are not in his way he doesn't need to kill you, he wants the nr 1 dude/dudette... he knows every henchman is unimportant...

[Maddieman]

how you got assassin out of throwing a grenade at your enemies is beyond me <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you shimmy up the side of the building, climbing first onto a dumpster and second onto a railing, then onto a drainpipe <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">QED. images/icons/tongue.gif

Max Payne isn't THAT psycho, or hasn't been so far. If you are not in his way he doesn't need to kill you, he wants the nr 1 dude/dudette... he knows every henchman is unimportant... <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps I've been playing this game wrong; but I tend to put a lot of effort into killing each and every henchman in a satisfiyingly explosive manner. And if I'm not satisfied with the carnage, I reload my quicksave and kill them all over again... images/icons/smile.gif

Allthough I agree with the above points, I think a little bit of choice wouldn't hurt.

Say, for example, you have a room or building full of enemies to clear. The player has to go through the room, but the approach is left up to them. Do you kick down door and let all hell break lose? Or do you dive through the window, or fall through the celing? Maybe you could knock on the door and wait for them to come out.

Same room, same enemies, - different results.

[ 11-04-2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[neeek]

for that scenario maddie id check if there are any explosives sitting and lying around like those one's in mp1 that you have to shoot them in order for them to bust a door down. thats why theyre there, for gameplay reasons.

i think mp2 should have sub-plot type levels where aside from sticking with the whole linear storyline, you could also play other sub-storylines that has its own other objectives to complete in order to make the real main storyline go further and find newer objectives.

kinda like gta3 where you have to complete other sub missions to fully complete the game and open up other bits of the story and the levels themselves.

usually for sequals to other games the makers will look for sumthing that players that played max payne have loved or hated about the game itself so they'll expand that part of what made that great and take out ones that didnt work for them. so the makers will figure out whats new to add in mp2 and how to open the gameplay up further. they'll add, innovate, take out unnessesary bits, improve on what needed work or what needed to be better on, most of all, they'll listen to the fans of mp1 and hear what they got to say.

good luck remedy.