Too much praise from perhaps unexperienced critics?

[Callahan]

I do like Max Payne, I really do ! But...

According to quite some reviews, Max seems to be the first game that does this, and that, etc.
They sometimes make me doubt about their writers' market knowledge...
MP seems seems to be like no game before on just too many points.

Let's take this recent one:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Better still, Max can interact with his environment - turning water taps on, blowing away obstructions, and so forth. <hr></blockquote>
Yesss!! This has never, but never been shown before in any game! And this argument helps Max to get 96% ?
But I can understand that somebody who hasn't even seen Duke3D is blown away by this game.

And what about this one:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>To complete the package, a very good story (best since Half Life) drives the action.<hr></blockquote>
I beg your pardon? Have you missed Deus Ex or something?

And...
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The level of detail in the graphics is amazing...Many objects in each room are usable and you can even switch on a TV <hr></blockquote>
... Sorry, seen all that before, too.

[gamemastern64]

Those elements have been used before, but the fact is not many games use them. I have only seen a couple games that have them. Max Payne is one. It is rare thing to have those elements in a game.

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: gamemastern64 ]

[biXen]

Deus Ex? Story? I played it for ages and I can't even remember the damn story, how good is it then? And it's not only the story itself, it's how they immerse it, how they drag you into it. Try that on for size...

Interaction with the environment is almost never done, and that's what rocks. Who cares if somebody's done it before? Everything is done anyway, it's those that do it exceptionally well that get's the praise... rule of the world...

[Mugg]

deus ex is a very good game, I really enjoyed it's techno-futuristic theme and cant wait for DX2 but it just wasnt noticed as much as other games unfortunately.

Reviewers have never known what they are talking about and probably will continue to not know what they are talking about. They unfortunately, are the people who help decide whether a game does well or not. Occasionally you'll get a good reviewer but then again, you're looking at personal preferences. I enjoy MP even though I know it is not as complex as other games (like DX).

Should it get a bad score? That depends on the reviewer and whether they like action or depth of plot.

[Guest]

i get what youre saying though. everyone is eager to call max payne revolutionary because the purty graphics made reviewers everywhere go OOOOH I MUST TELL PEOPLE TO BUY THIS NOW BECAUSE I SAW THIS IN THE MOST 1337 MOVIE EVER THE MATRIX.
the fact is the only "revolutionary" thing in the game is the fact that the lead character was modelled after the writer of the game. ive never seen a game do that before....sorta close though with duke nukem 3d and george broussards Drew Carey addiction, but just not quite 100% the same.

[Hatch]

I am the only critic that counts to me when it comes to playing games. I've read hundreds of reviews for hundreds of games and most of the time it seems the critics are employee's of the game developer. I d/l demo's and try games on a 10 day return policy at EB. I take half the games back. Max Payne is THE BEST single player game I've ever played. I've been gaming since Hexen II so maybe that doesn't make me an expert for everyone, but I know what I like. Interaction with the environmet? Didn't care about answering phones or turning on TV's at all. For me it's all about gameplay. Max Paynes gameplay was great! images/icons/grin.gif Rolling and Bullet Time added a new level to gameplay. Graphics are great! The story kept a perfect rhythmn to the game! I liked the story. 5 out of 5 stars!! Go Remedy!!!! wOOt!!! graemlins/hhg.gif

Peace
Hatch

[Guest]

The problem with game reviews, especially on the internet, but also on print, is that they are done by fans, and fans alone. There is no established academic community, and no set of academic standards.
Other media, like film and literature, also has it's fair share of substandard fan-reviews, but even these benefit greatly from the fact that there exists a commonly accepted rule-set for how to investigate the quality of these products.
(How one use and interpret these "rules" differ greatly, but that's besides the point).

So until an academic community is established around this wonderful phenomena called computer games, a process it looks like has started ever so slowly,we will be stuck with our share of more or less embaressing fan reviews.

Instead of whining about the more forgetable reviews, we should be damned glad that for those few pearls we find once in a while.

Cuz all media has their horde ghastly self-acclaimed experts who vomit up any ignorant bullshit like they were Mount Etna during her "period",fans and academics alike, but computer-games still have the liberty of an academia-free life, where there are no standards except those we set ourselves.

Let's just enjoy that while it lasts, cuz it won't last long, and hope we manage to make a fair enough set of rules for when the academia steps in.

WHOPEEEE!

[Guest]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Better still, Max can interact with his environment - turning water taps on, blowing away obstructions, and so forth.<hr></blockquote>
lol! Interact? Oh man... Max Payne is no better than Half life in that area.

[Shams]

Well most magazines just wanna kiss 3dr's ass so they get those free DNF copies when it comes out...

I stopped my PC GAMER UK subscription after I read their article on Mp...just bunch of creamers.

PS: I somewhat like MaxP n kungFu mod.

[Shaded]

Deus Ex was very nice, in terms of story, characters, and setting. It deserves all the credit it gets. Max Payne had a great story as well, but it really scored on the attitude factor. And the game itself is all about the action - diving into a room with both guns blazing as the world explodes in a fiery orgy of sparks and debris.

Well, thats the best Ive heard it described as, anyway. And kudos to the creators, baby, cause they deserve it.

+ Sam Lake kicks ass an you know it images/icons/smile.gif

[Hamster]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Callahan:
I do like Max Payne, I really do ! But...
<hr></blockquote>

Ha ha! Yes, everything was actually done in Duke3D back then. And in MP you couldn't even blow up toilets or break mirrors as you could in Duke3D...

I am with you, it has all been done before. The story was cool, perfect for the game. But it was pulp fiction. Of course, it was supposed to be just that. Deus Ex had a totally different gameplay and the story was extremely deep because the player changed it all the time. MP was told straight forward with no options. Like a movie. I think MP is groundbreaking in that it actually tries to be like a playable action movie. It succeed with that. Deus Ex went in a totally different direction. Both are great games. Imagine a hybrid of MP and DX! That could REALLY be something. And would really take time to develop.. images/icons/grin.gif So let's see what Dukes' up to next year...

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Hamster ]

[Hatch]

Also have you ever noticed the particle effects? The first time I saw the particle effects around the bullet from the sniper rifle my jaw dropped! Talk about attention to detail! images/icons/shocked.gif Taking that much time to add more color and depth to an already fun part of any game (sniping) got my attention.

Peace
Hatch

[biXen]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hamster:


Ha ha! Yes, everything was actually done in Duke3D back then. And in MP you couldn't even blow up toilets or break mirrors as you could in Duke3D...

I am with you, it has all been done before. The story was cool, perfect for the game. But it was pulp fiction. Of course, it was supposed to be just that. Deus Ex had a totally different gameplay and the story was extremely deep because the player changed it all the time. MP was told straight forward with no options. Like a movie. I think MP is groundbreaking in that it actually tries to be like a playable action movie. It succeed with that. Deus Ex went in a totally different direction. Both are great games. Imagine a hybrid of MP and DX! That could REALLY be something. And would really take time to develop.. images/icons/grin.gif So let's see what Dukes' up to next year...

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Hamster ]<hr></blockquote>

That is on account of technology. It's easy to blow up a sprite, harder to make a 3d object that's destroyed and look good and is not to processor heavy. It's your own fault, not Remedy's... buy better machines, damn angry mob images/icons/tongue.gif

[Hamster]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by biXen:

It's your own fault, not Remedy's...<hr></blockquote>

Who talk about fault? Remedy has made one helluva game. I have only posted positive things about the game. But this is about rewiers without a clue. The bulletholes and the damage are still 80% sprites, just like Duke3D. If you talk about destructable 3D objects, that has been in a load of games. One of my favs from back then, was Hexen 2. I ran around and crushed tables, chairs and boxes all around. That was 5 years ago.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Hamster ]

[biXen]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hamster:


Who talk about fault? Remedy has made one helluva game. I have only posted positive things about the game. But this is about rewiers without a clue. The bulletholes and the damage are still 80% sprites, just like Duke3D. If you talk about destructable 3D objects, that has been in a load of games. One of my favs from back then, was Hexen 2. I ran around and crushed tables, chairs and boxes all around. That was 5 years ago.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Hamster ]<hr></blockquote>

Well, it looked like shite in Hexen 2, and it would have in Max Payne also if they didn't put much effort into it, which would take dev time and money... simple mathematics, you are bringing up unvalid points all the time. Reviewers judge it from their experience of the game, what's the hocus pocus in that?

[gamemastern64]

Deus Ex is a great game even without all the interactive stuff. The only thing you could do is throw pots at people but that is fun ;P

[Hamster]

> Well, it looked like shite in Hexen 2,

No, it looked super! It was five years ago! The pieces had correct textures on them and everything. I mentioned that game because it's so frigging old.

> and it would have in Max Payne also if they didn't put much effort into it

I never said they didn't! This thread was about that this stuff had not been done before.
The graphical part was not the point.

...

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Hamster ]

[Hamster]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by gamemastern64:
Deus Ex is a great game even without all the interactive stuff.<hr></blockquote>
images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Hamster ]

[Bushido]

My only problem with the "unexperienced" images/icons/rolleyes.gif critics was their excess amount of praise for MaxED being the "...easiest editor ever..." and "...so simple, you'll be making levels in minutes".....um no. I've been teaching myself MaxED for the past week and it's far from easy. As a matter of fact it's HARD. Hard meaning, if you want to make a level with cinematics,multiple objects, and lots of scripted events (look at me, I'm speaking the lingo...Whee!) it'll take a lot of time and a lot of effort.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some people out there took to it like a warm bath, but for us non-UT,Quake,Serious Sam editor types it's daunting to say the least...

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Bushido ]

[Death Mage]

I was dissappointed with the level of interactivity in Max Payne. ALl the reviews made it sound like it was hyper-realistic etc, when in truth they used basically the same tricks that have been in games for quite a while. Espically concidering Duke Nukem 3d and how long ago that was made, I was really hoping that some massive improvements had been made since then.

That'll teach me to believe reviewers.

Max Payne is still a great game, but I'm not sure i'd buy a sequil if it's as short and just SP, unless they add some really good specials for beating the game. They need something cool to add replay value.


And I've been playing games since Pong, so images/icons/tongue.gif

[Hamster]

After all, it's an action shooter. It did what it should. And with all the tons of bulletholes and fragments, I think my machine couldn't handle more anyway. The interactive part was super in MP, more than satisfying. And I have always thought of reviews as loose guidelines, not facts.
There are a lot of goofy reviewers out there.

[gamemastern64]

Hey Hampster what is with the images/icons/rolleyes.gif anyway? What is that supposed to mean?

[Hamster]

Well, gamemaster...DX was extremely interactive. You could do tons of stuff in that game. Use computers, bankterminals, unlock codes, pick up tons of stuff, and so on. Everyone that played the game know this. So what else could I say but
images/icons/rolleyes.gif
I actually replied something like this the first time, but found it to be pretty pointless. Rolling eyes are used when you run out of words and you no longer know what to say. Just like in the real world.

[Yuri]

dx ownz in its own way as does mp.
but its not rite too say MP has the better story since HL...simply put DX ownz story wize

[Homoludens]

There was nothing cosmetic about the very high level of interactivity in Deus Ex. Just about everything you could do either connected directly to the story or at least contributed to your knowledge of how J.C. Denton's world was integrated and delicately intertwined (and a testament to brilliant and thoughtful game design).

On the other hand, the interactivity in Max Payne's world, however novel, was nearly independent of the overall progress of character, plot, and even action and strategies. I'm thinking this may have to do with being careful not to put too much into the game at the expense of straying from the predetermined path. After all, Max Payne was designed to be very linear, while Deus Ex was made to have branching possibilities.

I'm wondering if Max Payne 2 will take advantage of a highly interactive gameworld that was only hinted at in MP1 (using bodies as shields, creating traps with running water and electricity, etc.)

[gamemastern64]

I own Deus Ex and it still has a linear story with 3 branches at the end. True if you stick around like in the jail at UNATCO HQ when thet FEMA guy is there (sorry forgot his name) he shoots the guy and when you log on a computer it shows e-mail but that is about it. Oh you can use turn on faucets and showers too. All most of it does is tell more about Denton and does not imfluence the story. Sure if the bomb on the helicoper goes off it changes what happens to Jock but it does not affect the ending. It is like moving flowers cause it does not really have an effect on the story. A true interactive game should have at least 20 endings that is all affected by really minor things like in real life. Something like killing a person will open a new rivalry between a mob or something like that. A game that is truly affected by what you do no matter how small the action. That is what I was meaning when I said interactive. Too bad a game like that is a long way off.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: gamemastern64 ]

[Hamster]

images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: Hamster ]

[The Baskinator]

*yawn*

[The Baskinator]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Callahan:
I do like Max Payne, I really do ! But...

<hr></blockquote>
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts....and....ummm.....D'OH!

[Hatch]

I personally didn't like Deus Ex. The down factor for me was the time it took to explore the game environment. Guess my mind is wired up for games that keep you on track with the action. That's what is so cool about Max Payne (imho). Another thing was the how Max worked with his environment. If he answered the phone or discovered a clue it took you further into the story. That made me feel like I was reading the story for myself instead of someone reading it to me.

Peace
Hatch

[Yuri]

i agree with callahan those reviewers are dumb...

lets stop comparing the 2 cuz the are way 2 diff...1 is for fast pace action story and anther is for slow paces action/scif-fi story.

[Guest]

Basse_Ex:

What the hell is wrong with Fan reviews? I give more credance to someone who plays games for fun than someone who is an educated proclaimed expert.
If we were to go by academia, the only games we'd be playing are Tetris and Riven. Have you ever listened to, say a movie reviewer? They only seem to like Chick Flicks and Artsy low budget films. Who better to review a game than people that play games. I hope there is never an established Game Reviewing press.